NDSU

[Grizfan7]

Is it better for your resume to beat a D2 team by 7 at home, or lose to the best FCS team by 4 on the road? Should be the latter but it probably won't be.
I guess MSU should stop scheduling MVC teams and get some D2 teams back on the schedule. If the Cats played the griz non-conference schedule we'd have the same record as the griz right now.

And seed between the 2 will still come down to who wins the Brawl so doesn't matter.

It wont matter when the committee compares us to the griz, but it will matter when they compare us to teams like Furman.

But your comparison and complaint seem tied to D2 vs FCS comparison of Cat/Griz schedules.

Right but the more general point I was trying to make is that if we had played an out of conference schedule like the griz had, we'd have the chance to finish 10-1, and I wonder if that looks better to the committee. Not necessarily to put us ahead of um, but for general seeding resume comparisons. It shouldn't but it probably does.

Maybe Furman is the better example of what's bothering me. Its possible MSU beats um, finishes 9-2, and still ends up with the 4 seed with Sdsu, Idaho, and 10-1 Furman all above us - even though Furman's toughest FCS game all year was #16 WCU, whereas MSU plays the 1, 2, and 3 ranked teams (or whatever um and Idaho currently are).

My view is that if the Cats win out, the Cats should and probably will get the 2d seed, subject to what the committee does with the Cats loss to Idaho (if Idaho wins big in the last 2 games). If the Griz win out, they should and likely will get the second seed. Forman hasn't played a strong enough schedule, nor, as pointed out, beaten any top teams. Worst case, is that the Griz would fall to a 3d seed. And Cats would fall to a 3d seed (or 4th depending on how strong Idaho finishes). I think the Cats "problem" is the Idaho loss more than the SDSU loss. Yes, SDSU loss was a loss, but it was a "good" loss, in my view.I wouldn't hold the SDSU loss against the Cats at all, and wouldn't just look at the records. Determine who's the better team, and that includes SOS, is what the committee is supposed to do. And what I think the committee will do.

[91catAlum]

Is it better for your resume to beat a D2 team by 7 at home, or lose to the best FCS team by 4 on the road? Should be the latter but it probably won't be.
I guess MSU should stop scheduling MVC teams and get some D2 teams back on the schedule. If the Cats played the griz non-conference schedule we'd have the same record as the griz right now.

And seed between the 2 will still come down to who wins the Brawl so doesn't matter.

It wont matter when the committee compares us to the griz, but it will matter when they compare us to teams like Furman.

But your comparison and complaint seem tied to D2 vs FCS comparison of Cat/Griz schedules.

Right but the more general point I was trying to make is that if we had played an out of conference schedule like the griz had, we'd have the chance to finish 10-1, and I wonder if that looks better to the committee. Not necessarily to put us ahead of um, but for general seeding resume comparisons. It shouldn't but it probably does.

Maybe Furman is the better example of what's bothering me. Its possible MSU beats um, finishes 9-2, and still ends up with the 4 seed with Sdsu, Idaho, and 10-1 Furman all above us - even though Furman's toughest FCS game all year was #16 WCU, whereas MSU plays the 1, 2, and 3 ranked teams (or whatever um and Idaho currently are).

My view is that if the Cats win out, the Cats should and probably will get the 2d seed, subject to what the committee does with the Cats loss to Idaho (if Idaho wins big in the last 2 games). If the Griz win out, they should and likely will get the second seed. Forman hasn't played a strong enough schedule, nor, as pointed out, beaten any top teams. Worst case, is that the Griz would fall to a 3d seed. And Cats would fall to a 3d seed (or 4th depending on how strong Idaho finishes). I think the Cats "problem" is the Idaho loss more than the SDSU loss. Yes, SDSU loss was a loss, but it was a "good" loss, in my view.I wouldn't hold the SDSU loss against the Cats at all, and wouldn't just look at the records. Determine who's the better team, and that includes SOS, is what the committee is supposed to do. And what I think the committee will do.

I hope you're right. Still 2 weeks of football in front of us, but I am just generally wondering about that scenario and whether its truly "worth it" to play a strong OOC game.

[Grizfan7]

Not NDSU related but I do think it’s interesting regarding Kent’s comments and the committee’s stance on how D2 wins will now be “counted” or looked at “stronger” than in years prior. Wonder why the change of heart…

There has not been a change of heart by the NCAA or the committee. The rules have been the same for years, and D2's have been counted (except where the rules specifically refer to D1 wins). The only thing that has changed is that people like Sam Herder and certain others have learned that what they were saying was wrong (and has been wrong).

I have an email from the committee saying: The selection criteria are "straightforward". "Division 2 games are not automatically removed from a team’s resume". However, D2 games are part of the discussion in comparing teams for selection.

This is the basic rule:

"The committee shall select the best teams available on a national at-large basis to complete the bracket. Per NCAA
Bylaw 31, the basic criteria used in the selection of at-large participants are (1) won-lost record, (2) strength of
schedule, and (3) eligibility and availability of student-athletes for the NCAA championship". See also the reference to DI games in nos. 3 and 4 below.

"Section 2•3 Selection Criteria

At-large teams shall be selected by the NCAA Division I Football Championship Committee, assisted by four regional
advisory committees that serve in an advisory capacity only.

The following principles shall apply when selecting at-large teams:

1. The committee shall select the best teams available on a national at-large basis to complete the bracket. Per NCAA Bylaw 31, the basic criteria used in the selection of at-large participants are (1) won-lost record, (2) strength of schedule, and (3) eligibility and availability of student-athletes for the NCAA championship;

2. There is no limit to the number of teams the committee may select from one conference;

3. The won-lost record of a team will be scrutinized to determine a team’s strength of schedule; however, fewer than six Division I wins may place a team in jeopardy of not being selected;

4. The committee may give more consideration to those teams that have played all Division I opponents; and

5. If a committee member’s institution is under consideration, that committee member will not be allowed in the room during discussions involving his/her team and may not vote for his/her team during the voting process. Similarly, a committee member from a conference office may not be present during discussions, nor vote for any team from his/her conference.

6. The committee will use the AFCA Coaches’ Poll and the Stats Perform FCS Top 25 Poll as a tool for evaluating teams."

https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/champi ... Manual.pdf

Is it better for your resume to beat a D2 team by 7 at home, or lose to the best FCS team by 4 on the road? Should be the latter but it probably won't be.
I guess MSU should stop scheduling MVC teams and get some D2 teams back on the schedule. If the Cats played the griz non-conference schedule we'd have the same record as the griz right now.

It is clearly better to lose a close game to SDSU than to beat Ferris. Not even a close call. However, it is not better to beat Stetson than it is to beat the two-time national championships D2 team, which I read had more players in the NFL in recent times than either MSU or UM. I saw the UM v. Ferris game. Ferris was very good and played well. At least on that day, Ferris would have beaten all but the top handful of the Big Sky conference teams. I don't know anyone could even say that beating Ferris might be considered by the committee to be as good or better than playing SDSU in a close game. The committee would never do that.

Thats not exactly my point either. See my post directly above this to Teton, maybe I explained it better.

Yes, I agree that the Cat loss of SDSU should not count against the Cats. I addressed this in another recent post too. I understood your amended point, but was just addressing your first point. I feel that I have gained a better feeling of what the committee does and will likely do. Earlier, I researched the D2 thing throughly, read numerous articles, and talked to or communicated with a number of knowledge people. Including 3 former (the one from last year and 1 current) chairs of the committee. I got the strong impression that the committee looks for the best teams and does not consider form over substance, in their selections.

[Grizfan7]

Is it better for your resume to beat a D2 team by 7 at home, or lose to the best FCS team by 4 on the road? Should be the latter but it probably won't be.
I guess MSU should stop scheduling MVC teams and get some D2 teams back on the schedule. If the Cats played the griz non-conference schedule we'd have the same record as the griz right now.

And seed between the 2 will still come down to who wins the Brawl so doesn't matter.

It wont matter when the committee compares us to the griz, but it will matter when they compare us to teams like Furman.

But your comparison and complaint seem tied to D2 vs FCS comparison of Cat/Griz schedules.

Right but the more general point I was trying to make is that if we had played an out of conference schedule like the griz had, we'd have the chance to finish 10-1, and I wonder if that looks better to the committee. Not necessarily to put us ahead of um, but for general seeding resume comparisons. It shouldn't but it probably does.

Maybe Furman is the better example of what's bothering me. Its possible MSU beats um, finishes 9-2, and still ends up with the 4 seed with Sdsu, Idaho, and 10-1 Furman all above us - even though Furman's toughest FCS game all year was #16 WCU, whereas MSU plays the 1, 2, and 3 ranked teams (or whatever um and Idaho currently are).

My view is that if the Cats win out, the Cats should and probably will get the 2d seed, subject to what the committee does with the Cats loss to Idaho (if Idaho wins big in the last 2 games). If the Griz win out, they should and likely will get the second seed. Forman hasn't played a strong enough schedule, nor, as pointed out, beaten any top teams. Worst case, is that the Griz would fall to a 3d seed. And Cats would fall to a 3d seed (or 4th depending on how strong Idaho finishes). I think the Cats "problem" is the Idaho loss more than the SDSU loss. Yes, SDSU loss was a loss, but it was a "good" loss, in my view.I wouldn't hold the SDSU loss against the Cats at all, and wouldn't just look at the records. Determine who's the better team, and that includes SOS, is what the committee is supposed to do. And what I think the committee will do.

I hope you're right. Still 2 weeks of football in front of us, but I am just generally wondering about that scenario and whether its truly "worth it" to play a strong OOC game.

I think it's worth it to play a strong OOC schedule, but it's also important to win all of those games. It's great the Cats played SDSU and came close. A stronger OOC schedule is good for development too. UM played 2 MV teams last year. Good but not great teams. Wins. Hauck doesn't like to have to get his teams all fired up for tough FCS games at the beginning of the season, because he wants his teams to build, improve and be hitting on all cylinders in November coming into the playoffs. That's not to say that he planned this type of season for UM. Other circumstances caused what occurred this season (needed to find and develop QB and gain experience for guys replacing top players from last year).

If Ferris hadn't been a known and very good team, and had been a mediocre or weak D2, that would have hurt the Griz.

[tetoncat]

I think the fair question is: can we think of 24 teams better than NDSU right now? When we get down into the 18-24 range and we’re debating between NDSU and a team like Mercer, you can’t keep NDSU out. Much like UM last year.. a juicy home game pay day for the FCS and a watered down subdivision allows for them in at 7-4.

Why not. If they lose 4 or 5 conference games especially the way they have they should be out. Judge this year's team and not the tradition.

I agree with you generally, but the most important goal of the selection committee, and the stated goal of the selection criteria, is to select the best teams. NDSU plays in a tough conference and has shown for a long time that it is a very strong program. I don't think the committee will get hung up on records and number of losses, especially if comparing to teams from weaker conference who have had a weaker SOS. Personally, I would give some deference to NDSU. I saw judge this year's NDSU team on how good they are and whether they are better than the other bubble teams.

Don't care how tough the conference If you can't stay within a score of the other top 4 or 5 teams even one game you shouldn't be in the playoffs.

[Grizfan7]

I think the fair question is: can we think of 24 teams better than NDSU right now? When we get down into the 18-24 range and we’re debating between NDSU and a team like Mercer, you can’t keep NDSU out. Much like UM last year.. a juicy home game pay day for the FCS and a watered down subdivision allows for them in at 7-4.

Why not. If they lose 4 or 5 conference games especially the way they have they should be out. Judge this year's team and not the tradition.

I agree with you generally, but the most important goal of the selection committee, and the stated goal of the selection criteria, is to select the best teams. NDSU plays in a tough conference and has shown for a long time that it is a very strong program. I don't think the committee will get hung up on records and number of losses, especially if comparing to teams from weaker conference who have had a weaker SOS. Personally, I would give some deference to NDSU. I saw judge this year's NDSU team on how good they are and whether they are better than the other bubble teams.

Don't care how tough the conference If you can't stay within a score of the other top 4 or 5 teams even one game you shouldn't be in the playoffs.

Okay, but that's not what the playoff selection criteria says or how the committee sees it. The committee will compare NDSU to other bubble teams, if NDSU is a bubble team. I think the committee would determine that NDSU is better than most other bubble teams. Of course, it would depend who the other teams are.

[tetoncat]

I think the fair question is: can we think of 24 teams better than NDSU right now? When we get down into the 18-24 range and we’re debating between NDSU and a team like Mercer, you can’t keep NDSU out. Much like UM last year.. a juicy home game pay day for the FCS and a watered down subdivision allows for them in at 7-4.

Why not. If they lose 4 or 5 conference games especially the way they have they should be out. Judge this year's team and not the tradition.

I agree with you generally, but the most important goal of the selection committee, and the stated goal of the selection criteria, is to select the best teams. NDSU plays in a tough conference and has shown for a long time that it is a very strong program. I don't think the committee will get hung up on records and number of losses, especially if comparing to teams from weaker conference who have had a weaker SOS. Personally, I would give some deference to NDSU. I saw judge this year's NDSU team on how good they are and whether they are better than the other bubble teams.

Don't care how tough the conference If you can't stay within a score of the other top 4 or 5 teams even one game you shouldn't be in the playoffs.

Okay, but that's not what the playoff selection criteria says or how the committee sees it. The committee will compare NDSU to other bubble teams, if NDSU is a bubble team. I think the committee would determine that NDSU is better than most other bubble teams. Of course, it would depend who the other teams are.

And if they are so good make them go on road and prove it. It won't happen because of bids which is one of the reasons we see same teams year after year in final 16, final 8.

[GeauxCats41]

I think the fair question is: can we think of 24 teams better than NDSU right now? When we get down into the 18-24 range and we’re debating between NDSU and a team like Mercer, you can’t keep NDSU out. Much like UM last year.. a juicy home game pay day for the FCS and a watered down subdivision allows for them in at 7-4.

Why not. If they lose 4 or 5 conference games especially the way they have they should be out. Judge this year's team and not the tradition.

I am, I did the same with Montana last year, I don’t think teams like Chattanooga (#19) and down beat NDSU.

NDSU’s 3 losses are to: #1,6,10.

They’re definitely a turkey weekend team but at 7-4 they shouldn’t be left out. They finish the year with #12 and #15. I think they win at least 1 and are in at 7-4. If they lose both… yeah probably out at 6-5. Ranked losses to all opponents in the top 12 is what it’ll look like if UNI/SIU wins out.

[tetoncat]

I think the fair question is: can we think of 24 teams better than NDSU right now? When we get down into the 18-24 range and we’re debating between NDSU and a team like Mercer, you can’t keep NDSU out. Much like UM last year.. a juicy home game pay day for the FCS and a watered down subdivision allows for them in at 7-4.

Why not. If they lose 4 or 5 conference games especially the way they have they should be out. Judge this year's team and not the tradition.

I am, I did the same with Montana last year, I don’t think teams like Chattanooga (#19) and down beat NDSU.

NDSU’s 3 losses are to: #1,6,10.

They’re definitely a turkey weekend team but at 7-4 they shouldn’t be left out. They finish the year with #12 and #15. I think they win at least 1 and are in at 7-4. If they lose both… yeah probably out at 6-5. Ranked losses to all opponents in the top 12 is what it’ll look like if UNI/SIU wins out.

Who have they beat ? UNI Lost to Weber.

[GeauxCats41]

I think the fair question is: can we think of 24 teams better than NDSU right now? When we get down into the 18-24 range and we’re debating between NDSU and a team like Mercer, you can’t keep NDSU out. Much like UM last year.. a juicy home game pay day for the FCS and a watered down subdivision allows for them in at 7-4.

Why not. If they lose 4 or 5 conference games especially the way they have they should be out. Judge this year's team and not the tradition.

I am, I did the same with Montana last year, I don’t think teams like Chattanooga (#19) and down beat NDSU.

NDSU’s 3 losses are to: #1,6,10.

They’re definitely a turkey weekend team but at 7-4 they shouldn’t be left out. They finish the year with #12 and #15. I think they win at least 1 and are in at 7-4. If they lose both… yeah probably out at 6-5. Ranked losses to all opponents in the top 12 is what it’ll look like if UNI/SIU wins out.

Who have they beat ? UNI Lost to Weber.

Idk what you want me to say. I don’t believe they should be left out at 7-4. I don’t think #19 chat and down in this weeks stats poll could beat NDSU.

[tetoncat]

I think the fair question is: can we think of 24 teams better than NDSU right now? When we get down into the 18-24 range and we’re debating between NDSU and a team like Mercer, you can’t keep NDSU out. Much like UM last year.. a juicy home game pay day for the FCS and a watered down subdivision allows for them in at 7-4.

Why not. If they lose 4 or 5 conference games especially the way they have they should be out. Judge this year's team and not the tradition.

I am, I did the same with Montana last year, I don’t think teams like Chattanooga (#19) and down beat NDSU.

NDSU’s 3 losses are to: #1,6,10.

They’re definitely a turkey weekend team but at 7-4 they shouldn’t be left out. They finish the year with #12 and #15. I think they win at least 1 and are in at 7-4. If they lose both… yeah probably out at 6-5. Ranked losses to all opponents in the top 12 is what it’ll look like if UNI/SIU wins out.

Who have they beat ? UNI Lost to Weber.

Idk what you want me to say. I don’t believe they should be left out at 7-4. I don’t think #19 chat and down in this weeks stats poll could beat NDSU.

Guess just wondering what they have done this year to show they can beat those teams. All comes down to our opinions.