How to attack the Griz 3-3-5?

[catatac]

No, we don't come up with a new offense, and the more or less keep doing what we've been doing. That said, how do we most effectively run the ball against that defense, which as we all know is a core philosophy of Vigen. Run the ball and stop the run.

Hoping some posters that are way smarter than me about the X's and O's can shed some light on what the strategy should be here.

[tdub]

No, we don't come up with a new offense, and the more or less keep doing what we've been doing. That said, how do we most effectively run the ball against that defense, which as we all know is a core philosophy of Vigen. Run the ball and stop the run.

Hoping some posters that are way smarter than me about the X's and O's can shed some light on what the strategy should be here.

Not an in depth X’s and O’s answer, but I think a major key is identifying where they bring pressure from, and not being surprised when it comes. Without a game-wrecker like Gubner in the middle, they’ll have to live and die trying to create miss-matches through line games and disguising the pressure, for blockers to make a decision that’ll open up a free body.

They aren’t going to out-horse the Cats, so they need to beat them with speed and scheme. Which also opens up lanes for big gash plays. A lot of risk/reward in that defense.

[onceacat]

No, we don't come up with a new offense, and the more or less keep doing what we've been doing. That said, how do we most effectively run the ball against that defense, which as we all know is a core philosophy of Vigen. Run the ball and stop the run.

Hoping some posters that are way smarter than me about the X's and O's can shed some light on what the strategy should be here.

Not an in depth X’s and O’s answer, but I think a major key is identifying where they bring pressure from, and not being surprised when it comes. Without a game-wrecker like Gubner in the middle, they’ll have to live and die trying to create miss-matches through line games and disguising the pressure, for blockers to make a decision that’ll open up a free body.

They aren’t going to out-horse the Cats, so they need to beat them with speed and scheme. Which also opens up lanes for big gash plays. A lot of risk/reward in that defense.

Physicality. The 3-3-5 requires the nickel to do a lot of heavy lifting in the run game (relative to normal DB duties). I'd love to see a lot of heavy formations (extra OL or 2TE) to grind out the game.

I'm not a big believer in 'Time of Possession" as a meaningful stat, but against this sort of team, I think it's huge. The 3-3-5 nicely complements their offense...eg, as you point out, high risk, high reward. The one thing that UM has done well this year relative to the Cats is turnovers. Thats a strategic choice...Which then lets the Pandas put the ball in the hands of 'high risk, high reward' offensive players like Ah Yet, Wortham, and Gilliam.

So: Punish the smaller lineup of the 3-3-5 with heavier formations. Lean in hard on the run game. DO NOT let the Pandas run up the score early.

This is literally, the epitome (IMO) of the "Drag them into the deep end and drown them" IMO.

[MTnative]

Quick slant passes can help beat the blitz that the gris love to bring on just about every down. Lamson can throw that slant to anybody, and has done so pretty well for most of the season.

[catapult]

To attack the 3-3-5 we need to hit quick passes out in the flats, runs off tackle and play action hitting TE or slots up the seam.

[catscat]

I think both of the above are important. What the gris do with the 3-3-5 is blitz one of the LBs most every play. One way or another you have to deal with the blitzer and you don't know which it is. The heavy package is great if it goes toward the blitzer because you have the blockers to handle it. The quick slants are really great if the go where the blitzer just left. I think Julius Davis can be particularly good against it because he's often patient and picks his way through the line and should be able then run to where the blitzer just left. I think slower developing passes should also work if there's a blocker to pick up the blitzer. It appears that this year the gris are using 4 DL more than they have in previous years.

I'll now admit that these are purely my observations and SWAGS and I yield to BBT who will now tell us how it really works.

[Monymony]

I have no doubt Vigen and Howe will be well prepared for the 3 3 5.

[seataccat]

The 3-3-5 the griz play is not the same 3-3-5 they have played in the past. It resembles a 4-3 with hybred players. It is not light in the box like you presume a 3-3 front would be. Their Sam LB generally plays on or near the los and their nickel and SS play in or near the box. They have schemed it to be difficult to run against. The cats may have the heavy packages like 12 personell to handle it but I think it's better to spread them out some. Get their linebackers and hybrid safeties in space with dowler, woods and long.

[GoldstoneCat]

The mesh stuff we run and the receivers we have to run it, along with the tight ends and adam jones' receiving ability, make us better prepared to deal with their pressure than we ever have been. Tommy did not like to throw the ball in the middle of the field, I imagine because of his lack of height. If we can get a little of that mesh stuff going, and protect long enough to let it develop, I think our quick efficient stuff can gash them with the running ability after the catch that 4 of our guys plus adam possess. They've been better against the run but I agree with the post above, I'd like to see lots of 21 personnel early to establish the run, plus I think that creates some 1x1 opportunities outside for long, king, Taco and woods. Some max protect 2 man route type of plays.

[tetoncat]

Our 2 RB set may work well, able to pick up Blitzer from either side. Other can slip out for dump off, a TE can as well, and then just beat them on slant or deep. A lot of teams have had good passi g games against them. Lamson will take some hits so how does he hold up.

[CelticCat]

I really liked what PSU was doing to the Griz, they had playcalls designed to get the ball to one on one matchups from where the blitz vacated and it was working really well, as was the QB run game, both things the Cats can easily replicate. The issue is their QB made some terrible throws (but also some amazing throws) that ended with interceptions. PSU was driving down on their 2nd or 3rd drive, up 7-0, and had a really nice playcall that saw a TE on a post route over the middle who was 2 steps ahead of the LB and their QB underthrew it by about 5 yards and it was picked off, if that is a good throw it's likely 14-0 Viks. Things snowballed with more picks and that was that. But I'm sure the coaches saw some things from the PSU/Griz game film they liked.

I think Lamson will be pretty involved carrying the football, and he seems to be a guy who does better passing the ball after he takes a few licks running the ball.

[iaafan]

The best ways to attack the 3-3-5 defense are by using formations to create one-on-one matchups and by running the ball to the edge or inside when the defense is spread out. Specifically, passing to the seams or deep sidelines, using the "trips" formation, running outside zone plays to the edge, and running counter plays or power runs to the interior can be effective.
PASSING GAME:
Exploit the seams: Routes like "four verts" can stretch the base cover 3 alignment of many 3-3-5 teams, as the defense often struggles to squeeze the seam route with help from the free safety.
Use "trips" formations: Lining up three receivers to one side can force the defense to adjust, leaving one side vulnerable with fewer defenders. This can set up one-on-one matchups against a single receiver.
Attack the sidelines: Combine deep sideline routes with corner routes to attack the deep part of the field, especially against a defense that might be in a roll coverage.
RUN GAME:
Run to the edge: The 3-3-5 defense can have difficulty containing runs to the outside, so plays like the outside zone, stretch, or sweep are often effective.
Go inside with power: Countering with power running plays directly at the interior of the defense can be effective, as can play-action off of those runs.
Use formations to gain an advantage: Running plays from unbalanced formations or formations with extra blockers can create a numerical advantage on the strong side, making it easier for the offensive line to block and create a seam.

[Montanabob]

The best ways to attack the 3-3-5 defense are by using formations to create one-on-one matchups and by running the ball to the edge or inside when the defense is spread out. Specifically, passing to the seams or deep sidelines, using the "trips" formation, running outside zone plays to the edge, and running counter plays or power runs to the interior can be effective.
PASSING GAME:
Exploit the seams: Routes like "four verts" can stretch the base cover 3 alignment of many 3-3-5 teams, as the defense often struggles to squeeze the seam route with help from the free safety.
Use "trips" formations: Lining up three receivers to one side can force the defense to adjust, leaving one side vulnerable with fewer defenders. This can set up one-on-one matchups against a single receiver.
Attack the sidelines: Combine deep sideline routes with corner routes to attack the deep part of the field, especially against a defense that might be in a roll coverage.
RUN GAME:
Run to the edge: The 3-3-5 defense can have difficulty containing runs to the outside, so plays like the outside zone, stretch, or sweep are often effective.
Go inside with power: Countering with power running plays directly at the interior of the defense can be effective, as can play-action off of those runs.
Use formations to gain an advantage: Running plays from unbalanced formations or formations with extra blockers can create a numerical advantage on the strong side, making it easier for the offensive line to block and create a seam.

it has amazed me that (without looking at the exact number) that this offense has not run outside as much as they should. right over tackle and up the middle way too many times. stretch them out and not just with fly sweep.

[MrGoodKat]

MSU ran outside effectively against UCD.

[BobcatBuiltTexan]

Xs and O's guy here...attacking the 335 trait isn't hard. Their desc are fast and rush to the field quite a bit. Running the the outside isn't going to be in our favor. You run into the 335. But what you don't do is base block, ie big in big. They 2 gap really well. The thing is we aren't a run first team. I know everyone thinks we are because that's what we've done in the past but that isn't this team. I said it from day 1 we are pass to run. So we play slow... we don't snap the back until 5sec are left because they will show where the blitz is coming from. Psu KILLED them with spot routes because they play a lot of zone. We wait identify where the blitz is coming from and throw into the boric because that's where the vacated zone is.

When we run out had to be pull schemes and X blocking to force the dl to be 1 gappers which then allows us to climb to the lb and make them have to be gap sound. The problem is they move their dl just enough that it will always be a guessing game. They'll stuff us some but we'll have big plays as well.

The 335 is a gimmick defense. You run out because you don't have the talent to play with people. It beat people with confusion and mayhem. The thing is if you relax you'll torch it, fundamentals beats gimmicks every day of the week. The biggest key is the ol identifying who they have then getting to them. Also they will be making calls on the field, our ol and qb have to listen for that and pick up on it. Every defense has signals to what they are doing within the players our players on the sideline HAVE to be watching so they can relay what they are seeing and hearing.

Lamson will have maybe 2reads, if the 2nd read isn't open he has to run. Quick decisions, get what you can then slide. I don't feel their dbsv stack up to our wrs. Their des will get pressure so we'll have to slide protect keep the rb in and he picks up the leaker in order to buy time for Lamson. Every so often leak the rb to the side of the blitz after a chip on the blitzer. Use their aggression against them. Biggest thing is going to be knowing where the blitz is coming from and being able to audible to a great play.

Their defense isn't the issue. We'll move the ball and score, maybe not at will buy we will be ok. Their offense poses no real threats to our defense. Our front plays heavy on the run to stop gillman, our dbs will snuff out their wrs. Our defense is better than their offense. Long as well we don't get to out of sorts because it's cat-griz We'll be just fine. They are going to have to figure out how to score against us week score against them because they aren't sound their high risk will be our reward. We can play base D and stop these dudesbecause they have no real threats deep. All their big plays aren't because they were better than other team it was scheme, our athletes will beat their scheme.

[MrGoodKat]

Xs and O's guy here...attacking the 335 trait isn't hard. Their desc are fast and rush to the field quite a bit. Running the the outside isn't going to be in our favor. You run into the 335. But what you don't do is base block, ie big in big. They 2 gap really well. The thing is we aren't a run first team. I know everyone thinks we are because that's what we've done in the past but that isn't this team. I said it from day 1 we are pass to run. So we play slow... we don't snap the back until 5sec are left because they will show where the blitz is coming from. Psu KILLED them with spot routes because they play a lot of zone. We wait identify where the blitz is coming from and throw into the boric because that's where the vacated zone is.

When we run out had to be pull schemes and X blocking to force the dl to be 1 gappers which then allows us to climb to the lb and make them have to be gap sound. The problem is they move their dl just enough that it will always be a guessing game. They'll stuff us some but we'll have big plays as well.

The 335 is a gimmick defense. You run out because you don't have the talent to play with people. It beat people with confusion and mayhem. The thing is if you relax you'll torch it, fundamentals beats gimmicks every day of the week. The biggest key is the ol identifying who they have then getting to them. Also they will be making calls on the field, our ol and qb have to listen for that and pick up on it. Every defense has signals to what they are doing within the players our players on the sideline HAVE to be watching so they can relay what they are seeing and hearing.

Lamson will have maybe 2reads, if the 2nd read isn't open he has to run. Quick decisions, get what you can then slide. I don't feel their dbsv stack up to our wrs. Their des will get pressure so we'll have to slide protect keep the rb in and he picks up the leaker in order to buy time for Lamson. Every so often leak the rb to the side of the blitz after a chip on the blitzer. Use their aggression against them. Biggest thing is going to be knowing where the blitz is coming from and being able to audible to a great play.

It is a gimmick defense and I think that Hauck uses it so that he doesn't have to find as many big, athletic defensive bodies and can focus on stockpiling linebackers. But the advantage it has for Saturday, you've highlighted throughout. You have to communicate against this defense, and it's going to be crazy loud.

[BobcatBuiltTexan]

Xs and O's guy here...attacking the 335 trait isn't hard. Their desc are fast and rush to the field quite a bit. Running the the outside isn't going to be in our favor. You run into the 335. But what you don't do is base block, ie big in big. They 2 gap really well. The thing is we aren't a run first team. I know everyone thinks we are because that's what we've done in the past but that isn't this team. I said it from day 1 we are pass to run. So we play slow... we don't snap the back until 5sec are left because they will show where the blitz is coming from. Psu KILLED them with spot routes because they play a lot of zone. We wait identify where the blitz is coming from and throw into the boric because that's where the vacated zone is.

When we run out had to be pull schemes and X blocking to force the dl to be 1 gappers which then allows us to climb to the lb and make them have to be gap sound. The problem is they move their dl just enough that it will always be a guessing game. They'll stuff us some but we'll have big plays as well.

The 335 is a gimmick defense. You run out because you don't have the talent to play with people. It beat people with confusion and mayhem. The thing is if you relax you'll torch it, fundamentals beats gimmicks every day of the week. The biggest key is the ol identifying who they have then getting to them. Also they will be making calls on the field, our ol and qb have to listen for that and pick up on it. Every defense has signals to what they are doing within the players our players on the sideline HAVE to be watching so they can relay what they are seeing and hearing.

Lamson will have maybe 2reads, if the 2nd read isn't open he has to run. Quick decisions, get what you can then slide. I don't feel their dbsv stack up to our wrs. Their des will get pressure so we'll have to slide protect keep the rb in and he picks up the leaker in order to buy time for Lamson. Every so often leak the rb to the side of the blitz after a chip on the blitzer. Use their aggression against them. Biggest thing is going to be knowing where the blitz is coming from and being able to audible to a great play.

It is a gimmick defense and I think that Hauck uses it so that he doesn't have to find as many big, athletic defensive bodies and can focus on stockpiling linebackers. But the advantage it has for Saturday, you've highlighted throughout. You have to communicate against this defense, and it's going to be crazy loud.

Here's the thing you don't have to communicate you have to know. I played against Michigan and trust me 20-30k doesnt beat 110k(when we played them we actually broke the record for the biggest crowd for a collegiate game) no matter how loud they are. We've were able to communicate enough to play well and be in position. What had to jalen is communication on the sideline. You talk about what you're seeing and you know when you see this we will do that, no words hand gestures are needed. Half way through the first qtr they week know the game plan what they are doing and they need talk on the sideline so they are on the same page. Now the thing I love is that after half time msu makes adjustments to stay a step ahead. Um is going to have to figure out what we're going to do. They stay the same.

[Bocephus]

Xs and O's guy here...attacking the 335 trait isn't hard. Their desc are fast and rush to the field quite a bit. Running the the outside isn't going to be in our favor. You run into the 335. But what you don't do is base block, ie big in big. They 2 gap really well. The thing is we aren't a run first team. I know everyone thinks we are because that's what we've done in the past but that isn't this team. I said it from day 1 we are pass to run. So we play slow... we don't snap the back until 5sec are left because they will show where the blitz is coming from. Psu KILLED them with spot routes because they play a lot of zone. We wait identify where the blitz is coming from and throw into the boric because that's where the vacated zone is.

When we run out had to be pull schemes and X blocking to force the dl to be 1 gappers which then allows us to climb to the lb and make them have to be gap sound. The problem is they move their dl just enough that it will always be a guessing game. They'll stuff us some but we'll have big plays as well.

The 335 is a gimmick defense. You run out because you don't have the talent to play with people. It beat people with confusion and mayhem. The thing is if you relax you'll torch it, fundamentals beats gimmicks every day of the week. The biggest key is the ol identifying who they have then getting to them. Also they will be making calls on the field, our ol and qb have to listen for that and pick up on it. Every defense has signals to what they are doing within the players our players on the sideline HAVE to be watching so they can relay what they are seeing and hearing.

Lamson will have maybe 2reads, if the 2nd read isn't open he has to run. Quick decisions, get what you can then slide. I don't feel their dbsv stack up to our wrs. Their des will get pressure so we'll have to slide protect keep the rb in and he picks up the leaker in order to buy time for Lamson. Every so often leak the rb to the side of the blitz after a chip on the blitzer. Use their aggression against them. Biggest thing is going to be knowing where the blitz is coming from and being able to audible to a great play.

It is a gimmick defense and I think that Hauck uses it so that he doesn't have to find as many big, athletic defensive bodies and can focus on stockpiling linebackers. But the advantage it has for Saturday, you've highlighted throughout. You have to communicate against this defense, and it's going to be crazy loud.

Here's the thing you don't have to communicate you have to know. I played against Michigan and trust me 20-30k doesnt beat 110k(when we played them we actually broke the record for the biggest crowd for a collegiate game) no matter how loud they are. We've were able to communicate enough to play well and be in position. What had to jalen is communication on the sideline. You talk about what you're seeing and you know when you see this we will do that, no words hand gestures are needed. Half way through the first qtr they week know the game plan what they are doing and they need talk on the sideline so they are on the same page. Now the thing I love is that after half time msu makes adjustments to stay a step ahead. Um is going to have to figure out what we're going to do. They stay the same.

Great assessment, thanks for the insight BBT. In regards to the pressure being on their offense to score, reminds of what Choate said in the Miracle in Missoula documentary. The pressure is on them, they were the ones that needed the touchdown.

There has been stretches when their offense has gone cold. If that happens could be a long day for them.

Really impressed with Howe’s interview and the preparation these guys put in.

[seataccat]

Xs and O's guy here...attacking the 335 trait isn't hard. Their desc are fast and rush to the field quite a bit. Running the the outside isn't going to be in our favor. You run into the 335. But what you don't do is base block, ie big in big. They 2 gap really well. The thing is we aren't a run first team. I know everyone thinks we are because that's what we've done in the past but that isn't this team. I said it from day 1 we are pass to run. So we play slow... we don't snap the back until 5sec are left because they will show where the blitz is coming from. Psu KILLED them with spot routes because they play a lot of zone. We wait identify where the blitz is coming from and throw into the boric because that's where the vacated zone is.

When we run out had to be pull schemes and X blocking to force the dl to be 1 gappers which then allows us to climb to the lb and make them have to be gap sound. The problem is they move their dl just enough that it will always be a guessing game. They'll stuff us some but we'll have big plays as well.

The 335 is a gimmick defense. You run out because you don't have the talent to play with people. It beat people with confusion and mayhem. The thing is if you relax you'll torch it, fundamentals beats gimmicks every day of the week. The biggest key is the ol identifying who they have then getting to them. Also they will be making calls on the field, our ol and qb have to listen for that and pick up on it. Every defense has signals to what they are doing within the players our players on the sideline HAVE to be watching so they can relay what they are seeing and hearing.

Lamson will have maybe 2reads, if the 2nd read isn't open he has to run. Quick decisions, get what you can then slide. I don't feel their dbsv stack up to our wrs. Their des will get pressure so we'll have to slide protect keep the rb in and he picks up the leaker in order to buy time for Lamson. Every so often leak the rb to the side of the blitz after a chip on the blitzer. Use their aggression against them. Biggest thing is going to be knowing where the blitz is coming from and being able to audible to a great play.

Their defense isn't the issue. We'll move the ball and score, maybe not at will buy we will be ok. Their offense poses no real threats to our defense. Our front plays heavy on the run to stop gillman, our dbs will snuff out their wrs. Our defense is better than their offense. Long as well we don't get to out of sorts because it's cat-griz We'll be just fine. They are going to have to figure out how to score against us week score against them because they aren't sound their high risk will be our reward. We can play base D and stop these dudesbecause they have no real threats deep. All their big plays aren't because they were better than other team it was scheme, our athletes will beat their scheme.

This is a great post and I really enjoy reading people's thoughts on X's and O's. I have a couple thoughts about what you said. I agree that the cats are not a run first team which I think is a good matchup with the griz defense. I'm not sure I agree that the griz D is good at playing 2 gap. IMHO they play very little 2 gap. If the griz D lines up in a 3-3 stack they almost always shift it to an over or under front at the snap with a Lb playing buck end. A safety plays in the box.So they have single gap coverage in most cases. I have only seen them play a stack front, with 2 gap responsibility on rare occasions this year.
I think the cats are going to line up the heavy 12 personell package alot this Saturday. Not becase they are going to try to over power the 3-3 which they might do some but more importantly to force the griz to defend all the gaps. Then they will throw to the athletic TE's RB's and slot recievers out of this formation. Just my opinion, it's going to be interesting to see.

[BobcatBuiltTexan]

Xs and O's guy here...attacking the 335 trait isn't hard. Their desc are fast and rush to the field quite a bit. Running the the outside isn't going to be in our favor. You run into the 335. But what you don't do is base block, ie big in big. They 2 gap really well. The thing is we aren't a run first team. I know everyone thinks we are because that's what we've done in the past but that isn't this team. I said it from day 1 we are pass to run. So we play slow... we don't snap the back until 5sec are left because they will show where the blitz is coming from. Psu KILLED them with spot routes because they play a lot of zone. We wait identify where the blitz is coming from and throw into the boric because that's where the vacated zone is.

When we run out had to be pull schemes and X blocking to force the dl to be 1 gappers which then allows us to climb to the lb and make them have to be gap sound. The problem is they move their dl just enough that it will always be a guessing game. They'll stuff us some but we'll have big plays as well.

The 335 is a gimmick defense. You run out because you don't have the talent to play with people. It beat people with confusion and mayhem. The thing is if you relax you'll torch it, fundamentals beats gimmicks every day of the week. The biggest key is the ol identifying who they have then getting to them. Also they will be making calls on the field, our ol and qb have to listen for that and pick up on it. Every defense has signals to what they are doing within the players our players on the sideline HAVE to be watching so they can relay what they are seeing and hearing.

Lamson will have maybe 2reads, if the 2nd read isn't open he has to run. Quick decisions, get what you can then slide. I don't feel their dbsv stack up to our wrs. Their des will get pressure so we'll have to slide protect keep the rb in and he picks up the leaker in order to buy time for Lamson. Every so often leak the rb to the side of the blitz after a chip on the blitzer. Use their aggression against them. Biggest thing is going to be knowing where the blitz is coming from and being able to audible to a great play.

It is a gimmick defense and I think that Hauck uses it so that he doesn't have to find as many big, athletic defensive bodies and can focus on stockpiling linebackers. But the advantage it has for Saturday, you've highlighted throughout. You have to communicate against this defense, and it's going to be crazy loud.

Here's the thing you don't have to communicate you have to know. I played against Michigan and trust me 20-30k doesnt beat 110k(when we played them we actually broke the record for the biggest crowd for a collegiate game) no matter how loud they are. We've were able to communicate enough to play well and be in position. What had to jalen is communication on the sideline. You talk about what you're seeing and you know when you see this we will do that, no words hand gestures are needed. Half way through the first qtr they week know the game plan what they are doing and they need talk on the sideline so they are on the same page. Now the thing I love is that after half time msu makes adjustments to stay a step ahead. Um is going to have to figure out what we're going to do. They stay the same.

Great assessment, thanks for the insight BBT. In regards to the pressure being on their offense to score, reminds of what Choate said in the Miracle in Missoula documentary. The pressure is on them, they were the ones that needed the touchdown.

There has been stretches when their offense has gone cold. If that happens could be a long day for them.

Really impressed with Howe’s interview and the preparation these guys put in.

Trust me they'll go cold. It's gong to to be tough sledding all day for them. Their wrs aren't a threat to our dbs which is going to allow the front to own heavy on the run. The thing is when the dbs have to tackle they will have to be solid. Any big plays our cbs speed will have to be on display to go run out down and allow us to line up and play again. I'll repeat, long as we don't get caught up in the cat-griz stuff we'll be ok. If we make the game bigger than it is we'll have a tough time. Um KNOWS they aren't a NC level team. THIS is their NC. We are better than them line up and play solid football and we win and go to the REAL NC.