FIRE EVERYONE!

[Hawks86]

So we lost to SDSU. Win the rest but lose to the gris. Make it to the championship without playing NDSU or SDSU and beat Tarleton by 20. That would still be a fire able offense to vigen_h8er.

[ilovethecats]

Then the NDSU and SDSU coaches and players and their fans must seem crazy to you because a majority of them seem to think we’re in the same category as them. They’re definitely giving us a lot of respect.

I agree if you take the last four years or more into account and measure all of that evenly, then they’re better. But as you get more current that changes. Our 2021 season was a magical ride and it’s normal to take it as a one off. Especially when the next year we got clobbered by SDSU. Since the 2023 game vs SDSU, which we got jobbed on, we’ve proved to everyone, including SDSU and NDSU, that we’re in their league or category or tier or whatever you want to call it.

What coaches say about other programs is clearly not the same as what fans think? What is a coach gonna say? Come on man that’s not what we’re talking about and I know you know that.

This entire conversation started when a FAN said that in FCS football it’s NDSU, SDSU, MSU and then everyone else. Then, without expecting this kind of pushback for what seems so obvious to me, I simply said I don’t see how the Cats are in the same tier as the other two, as we can never beat the other two and they win national championships.

But I’ll concede if head to head wins don’t matter, and national championships don’t matter, then by all means put the Cats in the top tier!

Its all just opinions but for me personally, and only me and not other coaches and fans, I don’t see the Cats being at the level of the Dakotas yet because we still don’t beat them and we still don’t win championships like they do. Our games are much more competitive than they were, we could win most of them; but we haven’t and to me that matters.

[SparkCat]

This entire thread is bogus. Bad look for recruits, parents etc. I think all just put Mr griz lover on block and quit wasting our time. After Cats win this weekend with 300 plus yards of rushing he will be quite for 3 months yet again..

Beat dsus and the gris in Missoula and I’ll be proven wrong about Vigen. I hope I’m wrong and he smokes the gris and one or both of the dsus in the playoffs. If he doesn’t then a pattern is emerging and it needs to be addressed.

Implying I’m a gris fan when truthfully I’d rather be caught in the gears of a combine because I’m questioning Vigen’s ability to beat a dsu is some impressive mental gymnastics. You can check the evidence on this one but his record against the dsus isn’t very good.

He has beaten a DSU in the playoffs.

Once.

Since that he’s lost to them every time.

100% Griz troll. Away with you

Ah yes throw around the gris accusations and don’t bother refuting any of the issues I’ve raised with Vigen’s in game coaching and game plans. His off-season and recruiting are great no complaints there. He gets everything out of the kids from a physical and talent standpoint. But continually fails against equal or better competition during games. Why?

Starting to wonder if the Vigen supporters can refute a single issue I have with his in game coaching?

You have been given a number of explanations, by a number of posters. You don’t listen, you obviously think your opinion is gold and part of me thinks that you believe you can actually do a better job than the staff we have. Stealing a page from ole MtHoops, you sound like someone who has never been there.

[iaafan]

The two worst teams Vigen lost to were the’21 and ‘23 griz. By far his most disappointing losses. Almost inconceivable that they lost as bad as they did.

[49thparallel]

I'm not quite ready to start firing coaches but it's an unfortunate fact that we had scheduled games against two of the very best teams in the FBS and FCS to start the season, especially with a new QB and lots of inexperienced newer players on the roster. This seems unnecessarily demoralizing and risky. Maybe I would have felt better about it if they would have gotten a bigger paycheck from Oregon. Also, maybe someone can explain to me why we would reshuffle our O-line going into these types of games? I'm not as learned as many of my fellow forum members but this seems to have the potential of creating lots of chaos on block assignments when you can least afford mistakes. Don't we have a "next man up" for Mastel instead of a reshuffle? I see Kaplan is second on the DC but also a redshirt freshman. I'm encouraged with what I've seen with our young talent and player potential in these games so far but also felt there was some questionable play calling by the OC and an obvious lack of preparation on special teams. I felt Lamson had a disproportionate number of carries due to the designed plays and then being forced to scramble due to pressure.

[SparkCat]

I'm not quite ready to start firing coaches but it's an unfortunate fact that we had scheduled games against two of the very best teams in the FBS and FCS to start the season, especially with a new QB and lots of inexperienced newer players on the roster. This seems unnecessarily demoralizing and risky. Maybe I would have felt better about it if they would have gotten a bigger paycheck from Oregon. Also, maybe someone can explain to me why we would reshuffle our O-line going into these types of games? I'm not as learned as many of my fellow forum members but this seems to have the potential of creating lots of chaos on block assignments when you can least afford mistakes. Don't we have a "next man up" for Mastel instead of a reshuffle? I see Kaplan is second on the DC but also a redshirt freshman. I'm encouraged with what I've seen with our young talent and player potential in these games so far but also felt there was some questionable play calling by the OC and an obvious lack of preparation on special teams. I felt Lamson had a disproportionate number of carries due to the designed plays and then being forced to scramble due to pressure.

The scheduling happened in 2019, pre NIL. Oregon really turned a corner after the 2020 covid year, so although it was going be a more than likely a loss back then, I don’t think they foresaw the state of football in today’s world. I have no issue with cross conference pre-season games against the Missouri Valley and I hope that trend continues.

[BelligerentBobcat]

The Oregon game was regrettable, and I think Leon would agree.

I firmly believe the SDSU game will make us better. Unfortunately it will also make SDSU better, but that game was a huge wake up call for a lot of players and coaches. Titan’s interview this week is a must listen btw. He has the right mentality.

[SparkCat]

The Oregon game was regrettable, and I think Leon would agree.

I firmly believe the SDSU game will make us better. Unfortunately it will also make SDSU better, but that game was a huge wake up call for a lot of players and coaches. Titan’s interview this week is a must listen btw. He has the right mentality.

What media is that interview on?

[BelligerentBobcat]

The Oregon game was regrettable, and I think Leon would agree.

I firmly believe the SDSU game will make us better. Unfortunately it will also make SDSU better, but that game was a huge wake up call for a lot of players and coaches. Titan’s interview this week is a must listen btw. He has the right mentality.

What media is that interview on?

406? Whichever one has Flores.

[coloradocat]

The Oregon game was regrettable, and I think Leon would agree.

I firmly believe the SDSU game will make us better. Unfortunately it will also make SDSU better, but that game was a huge wake up call for a lot of players and coaches. Titan’s interview this week is a must listen btw. He has the right mentality.

What media is that interview on?

406mtsports (.com or on Youtube)

[Cataholic]

This entire thread is bogus. Bad look for recruits, parents etc. I think all just put Mr griz lover on block and quit wasting our time. After Cats win this weekend with 300 plus yards of rushing he will be quite for 3 months yet again..

Beat dsus and the gris in Missoula and I’ll be proven wrong about Vigen. I hope I’m wrong and he smokes the gris and one or both of the dsus in the playoffs. If he doesn’t then a pattern is emerging and it needs to be addressed.

Implying I’m a gris fan when truthfully I’d rather be caught in the gears of a combine because I’m questioning Vigen’s ability to beat a dsu is some impressive mental gymnastics. You can check the evidence on this one but his record against the dsus isn’t very good.

Tell us who you think is realistically attainable and can accomplish all that Coach V has AND beat the DSU's and the Griz consistently?

Troy Taylor, proven success in the big sky and proven recruiter.

Ed McCaffery, didn’t do much at Colorado State, but he didn’t have a lot to work with. Maybe with the resources of Montana State might prove that he can be successful.

Kane Ioane, gamble, unproven HC but worth a shot

Bobby Daly, gamble, unproven HC but worth a shot

Denarius Mcghee, unproven as an HC but not liking Denarius is punishable by prison time

Tony Annese, looks like he wants to stay at Ferris state who knows

Brian Bergstrom, also gamble and unproven but worth a shot. Could stick with the hiring them to beat them philosophy that has been attempted with Vigen.

No serious person would ever list Ed McCaffery. Have you read nothing on what went on there?

The rest of the people have are coaches you would consider if/when Vigen moves on, but none of them are somebody you would fire Vigen to hire.

Regarding your coaching complaints and the mistakes, I would argue last season with a veteran team and QB they experienced shockingly few mistakes. This year, new QB, young team, lots of mistakes. It’s common. SDSU made a lot of mistakes too! Again, you’re not going to find a coach at the FCS level, or any level, that has perfect execution, perfect game planning, perfect anything, largely because at the end of the day they’re relying on 18-22 year old young men who are going to screw up at least once. None of us here are happy about not beating the DSU’s, but at least have the wherewithal to realize it’s not a fireable offense.

Bingo! Good post!

[MSU01]

The Oregon game was regrettable, and I think Leon would agree.

I firmly believe the SDSU game will make us better. Unfortunately it will also make SDSU better, but that game was a huge wake up call for a lot of players and coaches. Titan’s interview this week is a must listen btw. He has the right mentality.

Agreed, despite the loss I love the scheduling of the SDSU game. If it ultimately costs MSU a home semifinal game then so be it, SDSU made a few more plays and deserved their win. And as a fan, I had a hell of a lot more fun last Saturday than I will watching MSU demolish San Diego and Mercyhurst the next two weeks.

[TomCat88]

Then the NDSU and SDSU coaches and players and their fans must seem crazy to you because a majority of them seem to think we’re in the same category as them. They’re definitely giving us a lot of respect.

I agree if you take the last four years or more into account and measure all of that evenly, then they’re better. But as you get more current that changes. Our 2021 season was a magical ride and it’s normal to take it as a one off. Especially when the next year we got clobbered by SDSU. Since the 2023 game vs SDSU, which we got jobbed on, we’ve proved to everyone, including SDSU and NDSU, that we’re in their league or category or tier or whatever you want to call it.

What coaches say about other programs is clearly not the same as what fans think? What is a coach gonna say? Come on man that’s not what we’re talking about and I know you know that.

This entire conversation started when a FAN said that in FCS football it’s NDSU, SDSU, MSU and then everyone else. Then, without expecting this kind of pushback for what seems so obvious to me, I simply said I don’t see how the Cats are in the same tier as the other two, as we can never beat the other two and they win national championships.

But I’ll concede if head to head wins don’t matter, and national championships don’t matter, then by all means put the Cats in the top tier!

Its all just opinions but for me personally, and only me and not other coaches and fans, I don’t see the Cats being at the level of the Dakotas yet because we still don’t beat them and we still don’t win championships like they do. Our games are much more competitive than they were, we could win most of them; but we haven’t and to me that matters.

You play to win championships. That's the ultimate goal and how you win them is irrelevant for the most part. It's nice to not only win one but also be remembered as one of the best teams ever like the '85 Bears or the '72 Dolphins. Or have your team win one of the most exciting Super Bowls or World Series ever. Sometimes the announcer will say something like, "Not only did Team A win it, but I really thought they were the best team this year." But that's just some extra fluff, the most important thing is winning it all.

That said, the discussion on whether MSU, NDSU and SDSU are all essentially the same or who's better etc. is just idle chit-chat. Doesn't really matter. I like these kinds of conversations because they're like ranking the best bands of all time or the best centerfielder or catcher or QB of all time.

I didn't think MSU was collectively better than UM from 2002 to 2005 even though it won 3 of 4. I didn't think MSU was better than UM from 2016 to 2018 when it won all three games. Even though UM has won two of the last four Cat-Griz games, I think MSU has been quite a bit better than UM. I do think MSU is just as good as NDSU and SDSU right now despite not winning* any of its last four meetings. Seems crazy that a team could lose to those teams four times and have national titles while the other two each have one but still be considered just as good. There's nothing that will make me think otherwise on any of those four items.

[TomCat88]

MSU outplayed Oklahoma State against Oregon. MSU had 410 yards rushing and 5.0 per carry against SDSU, which was the No. 1 defense in the MVFC and probably the nation last year. SDSU allowd just 284 per game and 3.1 per carry last year.

MSU played UNM (5-7) compared to Oregon and Utah Tech (1-11) compared to SDSU last year. I would say MSU looked a lot better against SDSU than it did against Utah Tech, which was one of MSU's worst offensive games of the year. MSU also played better vs Oregon in many ways than UNM, which it allowed two strip6s. The Bobcats were 13-point favorites vs UNM and only won by four but only led for about 10 seconds. Had MSU played like that against Oregon the Ducks would've had well over 70 points.

[TomCat88]

This is so crazy to me. Maybe it happens all the time. Anyway, per team it goes:

MSU - Since losing to UM in 2021 38-8 and 38-2 excluding losses to NDSU (3) and SDSU (3).
SDSU - Since losing to USD in 2021 47-3 and 47-0 excluding losses to MSU (1) and NDSU (2).
NDSU - Since losing to SHSU in spring 2021 59-8 and 59-4 excluding losses to SDSU (4) (none to MSU).

The 13 of 19 combined losses to each other is striking. Twice as many losses to each than to every team they've played combined.

The reason NDSU has so many more games is because their last loss not to SDSU was way back in the Covid semifinals.

[Cataholic]

This is so crazy to me. Maybe it happens all the time. Anyway, per team it goes:

MSU - Since losing to UM in 2021 38-8 and 38-2 excluding losses to NDSU (3) and SDSU (3).
SDSU - Since losing to USD in 2021 47-3 and 47-0 excluding losses to MSU (1) and NDSU (2).
NDSU - Since losing to SHSU in spring 2021 59-8 and 59-4 excluding losses to SDSU (4) (none to MSU).

The 13 of 19 combined losses to each other is striking. Twice as many losses to each than to every team they've played combined.

The reason NDSU has so many more games is because their last loss not to SDSU was way back in the Covid semifinals.

What an amazing stat! Thanks for pointing that out!

[PortlandCat90]

This entire thread is bogus. Bad look for recruits, parents etc. I think all just put Mr griz lover on block and quit wasting our time. After Cats win this weekend with 300 plus yards of rushing he will be quite for 3 months yet again..

Beat dsus and the gris in Missoula and I’ll be proven wrong about Vigen. I hope I’m wrong and he smokes the gris and one or both of the dsus in the playoffs. If he doesn’t then a pattern is emerging and it needs to be addressed.

Implying I’m a gris fan when truthfully I’d rather be caught in the gears of a combine because I’m questioning Vigen’s ability to beat a dsu is some impressive mental gymnastics. You can check the evidence on this one but his record against the dsus isn’t very good.

Tell us who you think is realistically attainable and can accomplish all that Coach V has AND beat the DSU's and the Griz consistently?

Troy Taylor, proven success in the big sky and proven recruiter.

Ed McCaffery, didn’t do much at Colorado State, but he didn’t have a lot to work with. Maybe with the resources of Montana State might prove that he can be successful.

Kane Ioane, gamble, unproven HC but worth a shot

Bobby Daly, gamble, unproven HC but worth a shot

Denarius Mcghee, unproven as an HC but not liking Denarius is punishable by prison time

Tony Annese, looks like he wants to stay at Ferris state who knows

Brian Bergstrom, also gamble and unproven but worth a shot. Could stick with the hiring them to beat them philosophy that has been attempted with Vigen.

No serious person would ever list Ed McCaffery. Have you read nothing on what went on there?

The rest of the people have are coaches you would consider if/when Vigen moves on, but none of them are somebody you would fire Vigen to hire.

Regarding your coaching complaints and the mistakes, I would argue last season with a veteran team and QB they experienced shockingly few mistakes. This year, new QB, young team, lots of mistakes. It’s common. SDSU made a lot of mistakes too! Again, you’re not going to find a coach at the FCS level, or any level, that has perfect execution, perfect game planning, perfect anything, largely because at the end of the day they’re relying on 18-22 year old young men who are going to screw up at least once. None of us here are happy about not beating the DSU’s, but at least have the wherewithal to realize it’s not a fireable offense.

Bingo! Good post!

I needed that laugh today. Ed was 6-16 during his tenure at UNC, was investigated for scholarship tampering, and his son Max hit a Cat fan in the head with his wooden clipboard after being heckled for his pants. His mustard brand blows as well. I needed that. Thanks grizhater!

Was anybody present for what our heckler said about the Max's pants? Next week is another tough week and I'll be back to check on that.

[TomCat88]

This entire thread is bogus. Bad look for recruits, parents etc. I think all just put Mr griz lover on block and quit wasting our time. After Cats win this weekend with 300 plus yards of rushing he will be quite for 3 months yet again..

Beat dsus and the gris in Missoula and I’ll be proven wrong about Vigen. I hope I’m wrong and he smokes the gris and one or both of the dsus in the playoffs. If he doesn’t then a pattern is emerging and it needs to be addressed.

Implying I’m a gris fan when truthfully I’d rather be caught in the gears of a combine because I’m questioning Vigen’s ability to beat a dsu is some impressive mental gymnastics. You can check the evidence on this one but his record against the dsus isn’t very good.

He has beaten a DSU in the playoffs.

Once.

Since that he’s lost to them every time.

100% Griz troll. Away with you

Ah yes throw around the gris accusations and don’t bother refuting any of the issues I’ve raised with Vigen’s in game coaching and game plans. His off-season and recruiting are great no complaints there. He gets everything out of the kids from a physical and talent standpoint. But continually fails against equal or better competition during games. Why?

Starting to wonder if the Vigen supporters can refute a single issue I have with his in game coaching?

Uhh, wut? What's wrong with losing to teams that are better than you?
In his first year he lost at Wyoming better, UM equal and NDSU better. He beat Weber equal, EWU equal, UTM playoff team, at Sam Houston better, S. Dakota St.
In his second year he lost to Oregon St. better, and SDSU better. He beat UM equal, Weber equal, Weber again equal, W&M playoff team.
in his third year he lost to SDSU on a bad call, Idaho equal, UM equal and NDSU equal. He beat Weber equal and SAC equal.
In his fourth year he lost to NDSU equal. Beat UNM equal, Idaho twice equal (by a lot), UM equal, at UC DAvis equal, UTM playoff team, USD equal.

Of his 10 losses, five were better. He has 14 wins over better and equal teams and three more against playoff teams. So 17 wins against quality opponents to 10 losses, but five of those were to teams that were just better.

How dare you using facts and logic! FIRE EVERYONE!!

Not to mention he's undefeated against everyone he's supposed to beat.

Hauck, by comparison, has lost to NAU in 2023, Weber (at home) and UND last year, Western Ill.,and PSU (at home) in 2018. Five losses to teams that he had better players, not him, than.

This got me thinking…who and when is the last bad team MSU has lost to? Idaho State in 2018 is the last time MSU lost to a non-playoff team but the Bengals were 6-5 that year with two losses to FBS schools. They were 6-3 heading into the final two weeks of the season.

[rfischer94]

This is so crazy to me. Maybe it happens all the time. Anyway, per team it goes:

MSU - Since losing to UM in 2021 38-8 and 38-2 excluding losses to NDSU (3) and SDSU (3).
SDSU - Since losing to USD in 2021 47-3 and 47-0 excluding losses to MSU (1) and NDSU (2).
NDSU - Since losing to SHSU in spring 2021 59-8 and 59-4 excluding losses to SDSU (4) (none to MSU).

The 13 of 19 combined losses to each other is striking. Twice as many losses to each than to every team they've played combined.

The reason NDSU has so many more games is because their last loss not to SDSU was way back in the Covid semifinals.

Wasn't that in the quarters to SHSU?

[VimSince03]

This is so crazy to me. Maybe it happens all the time. Anyway, per team it goes:

MSU - Since losing to UM in 2021 38-8 and 38-2 excluding losses to NDSU (3) and SDSU (3).
SDSU - Since losing to USD in 2021 47-3 and 47-0 excluding losses to MSU (1) and NDSU (2).
NDSU - Since losing to SHSU in spring 2021 59-8 and 59-4 excluding losses to SDSU (4) (none to MSU).

The 13 of 19 combined losses to each other is striking. Twice as many losses to each than to every team they've played combined.

The reason NDSU has so many more games is because their last loss not to SDSU was way back in the Covid semifinals.

Didn't they get beat by UM in the 2023 semifinals and lost to USD last year?