Choate vs Vigen

[91catAlum]

I like both coach Choate and Vigan but they are certainly different styles. I remember when Choate was hired from the huskies he said that he wanted to coach at the FCS level because it was the type of football he liked and could relate best to. He said things early on about how he could see himself as a long time bobcat head coach. I remember being skeptical of that at the time. I realize college football coaching is a business but the blatent BS is sometimes hard to stomach. I think Choate is very similar to coach Kramer in the sense that he is a players coach, great recruiter and understands that college football is an emotional game of momentum swings and tries to take advantage of that.
Coach Vigan and Ash IMHO are a little different in that they try to take the emotional roller coaster out of the equation. Try to keep the players focused on the task at hand in the moment. It's hard to argue with the success of this year so far. But I do worry that the team is going to run into an inspired team riding a momentum wave, wanting to run through brick walls with emotion like a Kramer or Choate inspired team. That definitely happened to a number #1 rated Ash team and it has happened to Vigan in the big games. Not saying one style is better than the other. There is a reason that it is extremely rare to have an undefeated championship season. I think NDSU has done it once but not sure it's been done otherwise in the last 40 years in the FCS.
Just some thoughts, I'm sure all the smart guys here will tell me I'm all wet.

What big games has Vigen lost because the other team was more inspired.

Hmmm cat griz last year comes to mind.

Two Cat Griz games. The SDSU road playoff game.

It's a little unfair, becasue Choate left a Top 8 program to Vigen, but I don't think Vigen has ever had a legit upset. Some close ones (Wyoming, SDSU on a weird overturned TD...maybe Idaho on the road last season?)

Choate pulled off some really emotional upsets with a couple pretty bad teams.

Sam Houston was 100% a legit upset. No reason a rookie QB should have won that game but we pulled it off. Other than 2016 Cat/Griz, what was Choate's emotional upset?

The Cats were underdogs in all 4 rivalry games that Choate won, if I'm not mistaken. I don't remember the line in 2018 but the griz were favored by 5 in 2019, and about 27 in 2016.

The main thing that hurts Vigen in the eyes of some fans is that he's gotten his ass kicked twice in missoula despite having very good teams. Losing a game is one thing, but there was no reason those 2 teams should've lost by 30 points. Of course the ass kicking in 2022 made up for some of that.

There's still a small portion of our fan base that feels beating the griz is the most important thing, and to them, Choate is the better coach. The only way for Vigen to change their minds is to get above .500 in the rivalry with continued deep playoff runs, or win a natty.

[grizzh8r]

I'll say this: the perception among some that Vigen somehow lacks the competitive fire that Choate so prominently displayed is not accurate. He is more soft spoken in his public interactions, no doubt. But this guy burns to win as much as any coach. You see it seep thru the carefully maintained public face sometimes, whether it's in defense of a philosophy or especially in defense of one of his players. I don't want to make it about one vs. the other, as the situations are different. But we have not lost a regular season home game under Vigen. Not one. And we're becoming, over time, over seasons, MORE consistent in approach and results. Yes there's one step yet to take but we're in the best position to take that step in early November that this program has been in in years. I know I've gotten quickly jaded, and maybe we all have, but we show up now just expecting and planning to win, no matter what. That's a luxury that Vigen deserves the credit for.

He's definitely not afraid of voicing his displeasure at incompetent officiating, either. Ash was nearly emotionless on the sidelines. Choate was demonstrative. Vigen walks the balance between the two. You can see the quiet intensity just below the surface at all times with Vigen during games.

[tetoncat]

Another difference is Choate team was underdog in almost every big game. Vigen teams are typically top 5 and at least top 10. So every game is big for the opposing team

[TomCat88]

MSU hadn't beaten EWU since 2011 when Vigen arrived and he's 4-0. You have to go back to 1997 before you get four wins over EWU. 2011, 2010, 2001,1997. MSU didn't play EWU in 2019.

From 2003 to 2021, MSU had only beaten EWU twice (2-15; 3-20 from 1998-2021). From 2002-2021, MSU beat UM nine times (9-8). From 1997 to now MSU has beaten EWU eight times, and UM 10 times with a game remaining vs UM.

[coloradocat]

MSU hadn't beaten EWU since 2011 when Vigen arrived and he's 4-0. You have to go back to 1997 before you get four wins over EWU. 2011, 2010, 2001,1997. MSU didn't play EWU in 2019.

From 2003 to 2021, MSU had only beaten EWU twice (2-15; 3-20 from 1998-2021). From 2002-2021, MSU beat UM nine times (9-8). From 1997 to now MSU has beaten EWU eight times, and UM 10 times with a game remaining vs UM.

Yeah but we're better than them now so those wins don't count.

[CelticCat]

Another difference is Choate team was underdog in almost every big game. Vigen teams are typically top 5 and at least top 10. So every game is big for the opposing team

I don't love these threads, especially mid season but I am feeling like diving in for some reason so here I go.

Choate teams had a lot more opportunities for upsets because they were a bad football team for the first 2 years, pretty good the third year and really good the last year under Choate. But that last year when the Cats finished 11-4? Got whooped at home for homecoming by Sac State, and followed that up with a ugly 12-16 loss @ unranked UND. That's what you get with teams who run on fire and emotion, you can lose games you have no business losing. And I'm not sure Choate had that many upsets, it was mainly the Griz.

For fun, and this is subjective a bit:

Upsets:

Choate:
2016 - UM
2017 - #17 UND (who finished 3-8), UM
2018 - None
2019 - None (I don't consider UM an upset since it was #8 vs #3 at home in Bozeman)

Vigen:
2021 - SHSU, SDSU. On the road at Weber felt like a pivotal win but we were #9 they were #19. Also @ EWU who was #5 felt like an upset but not sure I'd call it one.
2022 - None, but we were top 4 the entire year and the only possible chance at an upset was in Brookings, or Oregon State.
2023 - Again, we were top 3-6 almost the whole year, only opportunity was again in Brookings, and maybe Cat/Griz but that was #3 vs #4.
2024 - New Mexico, yes an FBS win is an upset until we prove we can do it routinely.

Bad Losses (other team upset the Cats):

Choate:
2016 - We were bad this year so not sure any of the losses could be considered upsets for the other team, but Sac only won 2 games that year and one was against us.
2017 - None
2018 - Idaho State, woof. Idaho State did finish 6-5 that year but that was an upset even though MSU wasn't ranked at the time.
2019 - Unranked UND, unranked Sac at home. Sac was brutal but they were good.

Vigen:
2021 - None
2022 - None
2023 - None, losing on the road to the #1, #9, and #3 teams aren't bad losses, nor is losing at home in the playoffs to the #8 team (though we should have won, it wasn't a huge upset for NDSU to win or anything)
2024 - 9-0 baby

When you look at it, I'd argue Vigen has more total "upset" type wins than Choate, but the problem is none of them have been against the Griz. And I don't think he has a bad loss in terms of the opponent, but a few bad losses in terms of the final score. Choate had a few bad losses, mainly the Idaho State one UND and Sac ended up being good in 2019 but losing back to back to unranked teams, one at home for homecoming, was bad.

[91catAlum]

Another difference is Choate team was underdog in almost every big game. Vigen teams are typically top 5 and at least top 10. So every game is big for the opposing team

I don't love these threads, especially mid season but I am feeling like diving in for some reason so here I go.

Choate teams had a lot more opportunities for upsets because they were a bad football team for the first 2 years, pretty good the third year and really good the last year under Choate. But that last year when the Cats finished 11-4? Got whooped at home for homecoming by Sac State, and followed that up with a ugly 12-16 loss @ unranked UND. That's what you get with teams who run on fire and emotion, you can lose games you have no business losing. And I'm not sure Choate had that many upsets, it was mainly the Griz.

For fun, and this is subjective a bit:

Upsets:

Choate:
2016 - UM
2017 - #17 UND (who finished 3-8), UM
2018 - None
2019 - None (I don't consider UM an upset since it was #8 vs #3 at home in Bozeman)

Vigen:
2021 - SHSU, SDSU. On the road at Weber felt like a pivotal win but we were #9 they were #19. Also @ EWU who was #5 felt like an upset but not sure I'd call it one.
2022 - None, but we were top 4 the entire year and the only possible chance at an upset was in Brookings, or Oregon State.
2023 - Again, we were top 3-6 almost the whole year, only opportunity was again in Brookings, and maybe Cat/Griz but that was #3 vs #4.
2024 - New Mexico, yes an FBS win is an upset until we prove we can do it routinely.

Bad Losses (other team upset the Cats):

Choate:
2016 - We were bad this year so not sure any of the losses could be considered upsets for the other team, but Sac only won 2 games that year and one was against us.
2017 - None
2018 - Idaho State, woof. Idaho State did finish 6-5 that year but that was an upset even though MSU wasn't ranked at the time.
2019 - Unranked UND, unranked Sac at home. Sac was brutal but they were good.

Vigen:
2021 - None
2022 - None
2023 - None, losing on the road to the #1, #9, and #3 teams aren't bad losses, nor is losing at home in the playoffs to the #8 team (though we should have won, it wasn't a huge upset for NDSU to win or anything)
2024 - 9-0 baby

When you look at it, I'd argue Vigen has more total "upset" type wins than Choate, but the problem is none of them have been against the Griz. And I don't think he has a bad loss in terms of the opponent, but a few bad losses in terms of the final score. Choate had a few bad losses, mainly the Idaho State one UND and Sac ended up being good in 2019 but losing back to back to unranked teams, one at home for homecoming, was bad.

Seems like you're slanting your data a bit in Vigen's favor. Or maybe just define what you consider an upset, if not by point spread favorite?

2019 Cat griz had the griz favored by 5. Also, the Cats were #8 and griz were #3. So I'm not sure why you wouldn't consider that an upset.

2021 sdsu was an unseeded team playing on the road and the Cats were the 8 seed. I'm not sure why you consider that an upset.

2024 the Cats were double digit favorites to beat New Mexico. It was a good win beating an FBS for sure, but it was not an upset.

Vigen's bad losses are getting blown out twice in missoula despite being the favorite in 2021, plus the Idaho game last year and the ndsu playoff loss in Bozeman last year.

[BelligerentBobcat]

Another difference is Choate team was underdog in almost every big game. Vigen teams are typically top 5 and at least top 10. So every game is big for the opposing team

I don't love these threads, especially mid season but I am feeling like diving in for some reason so here I go.

Choate teams had a lot more opportunities for upsets because they were a bad football team for the first 2 years, pretty good the third year and really good the last year under Choate. But that last year when the Cats finished 11-4? Got whooped at home for homecoming by Sac State, and followed that up with a ugly 12-16 loss @ unranked UND. That's what you get with teams who run on fire and emotion, you can lose games you have no business losing. And I'm not sure Choate had that many upsets, it was mainly the Griz.

For fun, and this is subjective a bit:

Upsets:

Choate:
2016 - UM
2017 - #17 UND (who finished 3-8), UM
2018 - None
2019 - None (I don't consider UM an upset since it was #8 vs #3 at home in Bozeman)

Vigen:
2021 - SHSU, SDSU. On the road at Weber felt like a pivotal win but we were #9 they were #19. Also @ EWU who was #5 felt like an upset but not sure I'd call it one.
2022 - None, but we were top 4 the entire year and the only possible chance at an upset was in Brookings, or Oregon State.
2023 - Again, we were top 3-6 almost the whole year, only opportunity was again in Brookings, and maybe Cat/Griz but that was #3 vs #4.
2024 - New Mexico, yes an FBS win is an upset until we prove we can do it routinely.

Bad Losses (other team upset the Cats):

Choate:
2016 - We were bad this year so not sure any of the losses could be considered upsets for the other team, but Sac only won 2 games that year and one was against us.
2017 - None
2018 - Idaho State, woof. Idaho State did finish 6-5 that year but that was an upset even though MSU wasn't ranked at the time.
2019 - Unranked UND, unranked Sac at home. Sac was brutal but they were good.

Vigen:
2021 - None
2022 - None
2023 - None, losing on the road to the #1, #9, and #3 teams aren't bad losses, nor is losing at home in the playoffs to the #8 team (though we should have won, it wasn't a huge upset for NDSU to win or anything)
2024 - 9-0 baby

When you look at it, I'd argue Vigen has more total "upset" type wins than Choate, but the problem is none of them have been against the Griz. And I don't think he has a bad loss in terms of the opponent, but a few bad losses in terms of the final score. Choate had a few bad losses, mainly the Idaho State one UND and Sac ended up being good in 2019 but losing back to back to unranked teams, one at home for homecoming, was bad.

Seems like you're slanting your data a bit in Vigen's favor. Or maybe just define what you consider an upset, if not by point spread favorite?

2019 Cat griz had the griz favored by 5. Also, the Cats were #8 and griz were #3. So I'm not sure why you wouldn't consider that an upset.

2021 sdsu was an unseeded team playing on the road and the Cats were the 8 seed. I'm not sure why you consider that an upset.

2024 the Cats were double digit favorites to beat New Mexico. It was a good win beating an FBS for sure, but it was not an upset.

Vigen's bad losses are getting blown out twice in missoula despite being the favorite in 2021, plus the Idaho game last year and the ndsu playoff loss in Bozeman last year.

I don't think I'd call the NDSU game a bad loss. It was an evenly matched game against a good team.

[CelticCat]

Another difference is Choate team was underdog in almost every big game. Vigen teams are typically top 5 and at least top 10. So every game is big for the opposing team

I don't love these threads, especially mid season but I am feeling like diving in for some reason so here I go.

Choate teams had a lot more opportunities for upsets because they were a bad football team for the first 2 years, pretty good the third year and really good the last year under Choate. But that last year when the Cats finished 11-4? Got whooped at home for homecoming by Sac State, and followed that up with a ugly 12-16 loss @ unranked UND. That's what you get with teams who run on fire and emotion, you can lose games you have no business losing. And I'm not sure Choate had that many upsets, it was mainly the Griz.

For fun, and this is subjective a bit:

Upsets:

Choate:
2016 - UM
2017 - #17 UND (who finished 3-8), UM
2018 - None
2019 - None (I don't consider UM an upset since it was #8 vs #3 at home in Bozeman)

Vigen:
2021 - SHSU, SDSU. On the road at Weber felt like a pivotal win but we were #9 they were #19. Also @ EWU who was #5 felt like an upset but not sure I'd call it one.
2022 - None, but we were top 4 the entire year and the only possible chance at an upset was in Brookings, or Oregon State.
2023 - Again, we were top 3-6 almost the whole year, only opportunity was again in Brookings, and maybe Cat/Griz but that was #3 vs #4.
2024 - New Mexico, yes an FBS win is an upset until we prove we can do it routinely.

Bad Losses (other team upset the Cats):

Choate:
2016 - We were bad this year so not sure any of the losses could be considered upsets for the other team, but Sac only won 2 games that year and one was against us.
2017 - None
2018 - Idaho State, woof. Idaho State did finish 6-5 that year but that was an upset even though MSU wasn't ranked at the time.
2019 - Unranked UND, unranked Sac at home. Sac was brutal but they were good.

Vigen:
2021 - None
2022 - None
2023 - None, losing on the road to the #1, #9, and #3 teams aren't bad losses, nor is losing at home in the playoffs to the #8 team (though we should have won, it wasn't a huge upset for NDSU to win or anything)
2024 - 9-0 baby

When you look at it, I'd argue Vigen has more total "upset" type wins than Choate, but the problem is none of them have been against the Griz. And I don't think he has a bad loss in terms of the opponent, but a few bad losses in terms of the final score. Choate had a few bad losses, mainly the Idaho State one UND and Sac ended up being good in 2019 but losing back to back to unranked teams, one at home for homecoming, was bad.

Seems like you're slanting your data a bit in Vigen's favor. Or maybe just define what you consider an upset, if not by point spread favorite?

2019 Cat griz had the griz favored by 5. Also, the Cats were #8 and griz were #3. So I'm not sure why you wouldn't consider that an upset.

2021 sdsu was an unseeded team playing on the road and the Cats were the 8 seed. I'm not sure why you consider that an upset.

2024 the Cats were double digit favorites to beat New Mexico. It was a good win beating an FBS for sure, but it was not an upset.

Vigen's bad losses are getting blown out twice in missoula despite being the favorite in 2021, plus the Idaho game last year and the ndsu playoff loss in Bozeman last year.

I said it was subjective. It's more of a gut feeling, and I factor in poll rankings and homefield more than actual betting lines.

2019 Cat/Griz was in Bozeman, I just don't think it's that big of an upset for a #8 ranked team to beat a #3 ranked team at home, especially considering we had just beaten them twice in a row. Did you feel like that was an upset? I didn't. I don't care if they were 5 point favorites.

I can concede SDSU not being an upset but they had played in the Covid NC and had just steamrolled their way through the playoffs. It felt like an upset to me because we hadn't beat any of the Dakota schools since they both became elite. SDSU waxed us in 2018 and beat us in 2017, and of course the 2014 playoff loss in Bozeman. Felt like an upset to me.

The same logic basically applies to New Mexico - we hadn't beaten an FBS team since 2006, so I don't care if we were the favorites, we had consistently proven over 3 different head coaches that we couldn't beat any FBS team, no matter how bad they were. The betting lines on that game were stupid AF.

And yes Vigen has those bad losses but again I don't consider any of them upsets. I might say Idaho was an upset but again I don't consider a top 10 matchup where the home team is the lower seed too big of an upset, any other intangible things aside like history, which there wasn't in this game. NDSU could be considered an upset on paper but it's NDSU, they have owned us so was it really a surprise they won that game? And losing in Missoula to a top 3 team in 2023 and a top 7 team in 2021, well see my previous comments about top 10 matchups.

[coloradocat]

Another difference is Choate team was underdog in almost every big game. Vigen teams are typically top 5 and at least top 10. So every game is big for the opposing team

I don't love these threads, especially mid season but I am feeling like diving in for some reason so here I go.

Choate teams had a lot more opportunities for upsets because they were a bad football team for the first 2 years, pretty good the third year and really good the last year under Choate. But that last year when the Cats finished 11-4? Got whooped at home for homecoming by Sac State, and followed that up with a ugly 12-16 loss @ unranked UND. That's what you get with teams who run on fire and emotion, you can lose games you have no business losing. And I'm not sure Choate had that many upsets, it was mainly the Griz.

For fun, and this is subjective a bit:

Upsets:

Choate:
2016 - UM
2017 - #17 UND (who finished 3-8), UM
2018 - None
2019 - None (I don't consider UM an upset since it was #8 vs #3 at home in Bozeman)

Vigen:
2021 - SHSU, SDSU. On the road at Weber felt like a pivotal win but we were #9 they were #19. Also @ EWU who was #5 felt like an upset but not sure I'd call it one.
2022 - None, but we were top 4 the entire year and the only possible chance at an upset was in Brookings, or Oregon State.
2023 - Again, we were top 3-6 almost the whole year, only opportunity was again in Brookings, and maybe Cat/Griz but that was #3 vs #4.
2024 - New Mexico, yes an FBS win is an upset until we prove we can do it routinely.

Bad Losses (other team upset the Cats):

Choate:
2016 - We were bad this year so not sure any of the losses could be considered upsets for the other team, but Sac only won 2 games that year and one was against us.
2017 - None
2018 - Idaho State, woof. Idaho State did finish 6-5 that year but that was an upset even though MSU wasn't ranked at the time.
2019 - Unranked UND, unranked Sac at home. Sac was brutal but they were good.

Vigen:
2021 - None
2022 - None
2023 - None, losing on the road to the #1, #9, and #3 teams aren't bad losses, nor is losing at home in the playoffs to the #8 team (though we should have won, it wasn't a huge upset for NDSU to win or anything)
2024 - 9-0 baby

When you look at it, I'd argue Vigen has more total "upset" type wins than Choate, but the problem is none of them have been against the Griz. And I don't think he has a bad loss in terms of the opponent, but a few bad losses in terms of the final score. Choate had a few bad losses, mainly the Idaho State one UND and Sac ended up being good in 2019 but losing back to back to unranked teams, one at home for homecoming, was bad.

Seems like you're slanting your data a bit in Vigen's favor. Or maybe just define what you consider an upset, if not by point spread favorite?

2019 Cat griz had the griz favored by 5. Also, the Cats were #8 and griz were #3. So I'm not sure why you wouldn't consider that an upset.

2021 sdsu was an unseeded team playing on the road and the Cats were the 8 seed. I'm not sure why you consider that an upset.

2024 the Cats were double digit favorites to beat New Mexico. It was a good win beating an FBS for sure, but it was not an upset.

Vigen's bad losses are getting blown out twice in missoula despite being the favorite in 2021, plus the Idaho game last year and the ndsu playoff loss in Bozeman last year.

I don't think I'd call the NDSU game a bad loss. It was an evenly matched game against a good team.

Idaho wasn't a bad loss either.

[WalkOn79]

I like both coach Choate and Vigan but they are certainly different styles. I remember when Choate was hired from the huskies he said that he wanted to coach at the FCS level because it was the type of football he liked and could relate best to. He said things early on about how he could see himself as a long time bobcat head coach. I remember being skeptical of that at the time. I realize college football coaching is a business but the blatent BS is sometimes hard to stomach. I think Choate is very similar to coach Kramer in the sense that he is a players coach, great recruiter and understands that college football is an emotional game of momentum swings and tries to take advantage of that.
Coach Vigan and Ash IMHO are a little different in that they try to take the emotional roller coaster out of the equation. Try to keep the players focused on the task at hand in the moment. It's hard to argue with the success of this year so far. But I do worry that the team is going to run into an inspired team riding a momentum wave, wanting to run through brick walls with emotion like a Kramer or Choate inspired team. That definitely happened to a number #1 rated Ash team and it has happened to Vigan in the big games. Not saying one style is better than the other. There is a reason that it is extremely rare to have an undefeated championship season. I think NDSU has done it once but not sure it's been done otherwise in the last 40 years in the FCS.
Just some thoughts, I'm sure all the smart guys here will tell me I'm all wet.

What big games has Vigen lost because the other team was more inspired.

Hmmm cat griz last year comes to mind.

So the year before did the Cats win because Vigen inspired them more than Bobby did the Griz?

I’ll be honest. Comparing Vigen to Ash is a large insult to Vigen. He’s every bit as intense as Choate, he just doesn’t have the used car salesman persona that Jeffrey does.

The point is that sometimes the inspired team can beat the more prepared team. I didn't think the point was that hard to understand.

The point is you are trying to say all big losses are because Cats were not inspired enough. Griz were better prepared and made big plays to get momentum at home. NDSU was a close game against similar opponents Cats made more mistakes, SDSU made 1 more play than Cats.Idaho was another show by team is first quarter and 1/2 and horrible special teams. Playoff losses have been someewhat injury related and some better teams.
My belief is losing to a much lower quality opponent by playing flat would be an example of losing due to inspiration levels but I can't think of one of those in Vigens tenure.

Ok dude

Totally agree with Teton. You lose games as prohibitive favorites when you're uninspired. Haven't seen one of them in the Vigen era

[BelligerentBobcat]

Another difference is Choate team was underdog in almost every big game. Vigen teams are typically top 5 and at least top 10. So every game is big for the opposing team

I don't love these threads, especially mid season but I am feeling like diving in for some reason so here I go.

Choate teams had a lot more opportunities for upsets because they were a bad football team for the first 2 years, pretty good the third year and really good the last year under Choate. But that last year when the Cats finished 11-4? Got whooped at home for homecoming by Sac State, and followed that up with a ugly 12-16 loss @ unranked UND. That's what you get with teams who run on fire and emotion, you can lose games you have no business losing. And I'm not sure Choate had that many upsets, it was mainly the Griz.

For fun, and this is subjective a bit:

Upsets:

Choate:
2016 - UM
2017 - #17 UND (who finished 3-8), UM
2018 - None
2019 - None (I don't consider UM an upset since it was #8 vs #3 at home in Bozeman)

Vigen:
2021 - SHSU, SDSU. On the road at Weber felt like a pivotal win but we were #9 they were #19. Also @ EWU who was #5 felt like an upset but not sure I'd call it one.
2022 - None, but we were top 4 the entire year and the only possible chance at an upset was in Brookings, or Oregon State.
2023 - Again, we were top 3-6 almost the whole year, only opportunity was again in Brookings, and maybe Cat/Griz but that was #3 vs #4.
2024 - New Mexico, yes an FBS win is an upset until we prove we can do it routinely.

Bad Losses (other team upset the Cats):

Choate:
2016 - We were bad this year so not sure any of the losses could be considered upsets for the other team, but Sac only won 2 games that year and one was against us.
2017 - None
2018 - Idaho State, woof. Idaho State did finish 6-5 that year but that was an upset even though MSU wasn't ranked at the time.
2019 - Unranked UND, unranked Sac at home. Sac was brutal but they were good.

Vigen:
2021 - None
2022 - None
2023 - None, losing on the road to the #1, #9, and #3 teams aren't bad losses, nor is losing at home in the playoffs to the #8 team (though we should have won, it wasn't a huge upset for NDSU to win or anything)
2024 - 9-0 baby

When you look at it, I'd argue Vigen has more total "upset" type wins than Choate, but the problem is none of them have been against the Griz. And I don't think he has a bad loss in terms of the opponent, but a few bad losses in terms of the final score. Choate had a few bad losses, mainly the Idaho State one UND and Sac ended up being good in 2019 but losing back to back to unranked teams, one at home for homecoming, was bad.

Seems like you're slanting your data a bit in Vigen's favor. Or maybe just define what you consider an upset, if not by point spread favorite?

2019 Cat griz had the griz favored by 5. Also, the Cats were #8 and griz were #3. So I'm not sure why you wouldn't consider that an upset.

2021 sdsu was an unseeded team playing on the road and the Cats were the 8 seed. I'm not sure why you consider that an upset.

2024 the Cats were double digit favorites to beat New Mexico. It was a good win beating an FBS for sure, but it was not an upset.

Vigen's bad losses are getting blown out twice in missoula despite being the favorite in 2021, plus the Idaho game last year and the ndsu playoff loss in Bozeman last year.

I don't think I'd call the NDSU game a bad loss. It was an evenly matched game against a good team.

Idaho wasn't a bad loss either.

Eh.

They played like ass for half a game and lost to a team that was clearly worse than them. In retrospect, a sign of what last season would become. One wonders if this years team would be as good if last year didn’t happen though. I don’t think it would be.

[91catAlum]

Another difference is Choate team was underdog in almost every big game. Vigen teams are typically top 5 and at least top 10. So every game is big for the opposing team

I don't love these threads, especially mid season but I am feeling like diving in for some reason so here I go.

Choate teams had a lot more opportunities for upsets because they were a bad football team for the first 2 years, pretty good the third year and really good the last year under Choate. But that last year when the Cats finished 11-4? Got whooped at home for homecoming by Sac State, and followed that up with a ugly 12-16 loss @ unranked UND. That's what you get with teams who run on fire and emotion, you can lose games you have no business losing. And I'm not sure Choate had that many upsets, it was mainly the Griz.

For fun, and this is subjective a bit:

Upsets:

Choate:
2016 - UM
2017 - #17 UND (who finished 3-8), UM
2018 - None
2019 - None (I don't consider UM an upset since it was #8 vs #3 at home in Bozeman)

Vigen:
2021 - SHSU, SDSU. On the road at Weber felt like a pivotal win but we were #9 they were #19. Also @ EWU who was #5 felt like an upset but not sure I'd call it one.
2022 - None, but we were top 4 the entire year and the only possible chance at an upset was in Brookings, or Oregon State.
2023 - Again, we were top 3-6 almost the whole year, only opportunity was again in Brookings, and maybe Cat/Griz but that was #3 vs #4.
2024 - New Mexico, yes an FBS win is an upset until we prove we can do it routinely.

Bad Losses (other team upset the Cats):

Choate:
2016 - We were bad this year so not sure any of the losses could be considered upsets for the other team, but Sac only won 2 games that year and one was against us.
2017 - None
2018 - Idaho State, woof. Idaho State did finish 6-5 that year but that was an upset even though MSU wasn't ranked at the time.
2019 - Unranked UND, unranked Sac at home. Sac was brutal but they were good.

Vigen:
2021 - None
2022 - None
2023 - None, losing on the road to the #1, #9, and #3 teams aren't bad losses, nor is losing at home in the playoffs to the #8 team (though we should have won, it wasn't a huge upset for NDSU to win or anything)
2024 - 9-0 baby

When you look at it, I'd argue Vigen has more total "upset" type wins than Choate, but the problem is none of them have been against the Griz. And I don't think he has a bad loss in terms of the opponent, but a few bad losses in terms of the final score. Choate had a few bad losses, mainly the Idaho State one UND and Sac ended up being good in 2019 but losing back to back to unranked teams, one at home for homecoming, was bad.

Seems like you're slanting your data a bit in Vigen's favor. Or maybe just define what you consider an upset, if not by point spread favorite?

2019 Cat griz had the griz favored by 5. Also, the Cats were #8 and griz were #3. So I'm not sure why you wouldn't consider that an upset.

2021 sdsu was an unseeded team playing on the road and the Cats were the 8 seed. I'm not sure why you consider that an upset.

2024 the Cats were double digit favorites to beat New Mexico. It was a good win beating an FBS for sure, but it was not an upset.

Vigen's bad losses are getting blown out twice in missoula despite being the favorite in 2021, plus the Idaho game last year and the ndsu playoff loss in Bozeman last year.

I said it was subjective. It's more of a gut feeling, and I factor in poll rankings and homefield more than actual betting lines.

2019 Cat/Griz was in Bozeman, I just don't think it's that big of an upset for a #8 ranked team to beat a #3 ranked team at home, especially considering we had just beaten them twice in a row. Did you feel like that was an upset? I didn't. I don't care if they were 5 point favorites.

I can concede SDSU not being an upset but they had played in the Covid NC and had just steamrolled their way through the playoffs. It felt like an upset to me because we hadn't beat any of the Dakota schools since they both became elite. SDSU waxed us in 2018 and beat us in 2017, and of course the 2014 playoff loss in Bozeman. Felt like an upset to me.

The same logic basically applies to New Mexico - we hadn't beaten an FBS team since 2006, so I don't care if we were the favorites, we had consistently proven over 3 different head coaches that we couldn't beat any FBS team, no matter how bad they were. The betting lines on that game were stupid AF.

And yes Vigen has those bad losses but again I don't consider any of them upsets. I might say Idaho was an upset but again I don't consider a top 10 matchup where the home team is the lower seed too big of an upset, any other intangible things aside like history, which there wasn't in this game. NDSU could be considered an upset on paper but it's NDSU, they have owned us so was it really a surprise they won that game? And losing in Missoula to a top 3 team in 2023 and a top 7 team in 2021, well see my previous comments about top 10 matchups.

Thanks for clarifying, that's all fair. And yes I did consider 2019 Cat griz an upset, the griz had just stomped a great Weber team the week before and were rolling, while the Cats lost their best player, Troy Andersen, that week... in addition to being ranked 5 spots lower than the griz.

[catatac]

This is the most boring thread ever. LOL

[coloradocat]

Another difference is Choate team was underdog in almost every big game. Vigen teams are typically top 5 and at least top 10. So every game is big for the opposing team

I don't love these threads, especially mid season but I am feeling like diving in for some reason so here I go.

Choate teams had a lot more opportunities for upsets because they were a bad football team for the first 2 years, pretty good the third year and really good the last year under Choate. But that last year when the Cats finished 11-4? Got whooped at home for homecoming by Sac State, and followed that up with a ugly 12-16 loss @ unranked UND. That's what you get with teams who run on fire and emotion, you can lose games you have no business losing. And I'm not sure Choate had that many upsets, it was mainly the Griz.

For fun, and this is subjective a bit:

Upsets:

Choate:
2016 - UM
2017 - #17 UND (who finished 3-8), UM
2018 - None
2019 - None (I don't consider UM an upset since it was #8 vs #3 at home in Bozeman)

Vigen:
2021 - SHSU, SDSU. On the road at Weber felt like a pivotal win but we were #9 they were #19. Also @ EWU who was #5 felt like an upset but not sure I'd call it one.
2022 - None, but we were top 4 the entire year and the only possible chance at an upset was in Brookings, or Oregon State.
2023 - Again, we were top 3-6 almost the whole year, only opportunity was again in Brookings, and maybe Cat/Griz but that was #3 vs #4.
2024 - New Mexico, yes an FBS win is an upset until we prove we can do it routinely.

Bad Losses (other team upset the Cats):

Choate:
2016 - We were bad this year so not sure any of the losses could be considered upsets for the other team, but Sac only won 2 games that year and one was against us.
2017 - None
2018 - Idaho State, woof. Idaho State did finish 6-5 that year but that was an upset even though MSU wasn't ranked at the time.
2019 - Unranked UND, unranked Sac at home. Sac was brutal but they were good.

Vigen:
2021 - None
2022 - None
2023 - None, losing on the road to the #1, #9, and #3 teams aren't bad losses, nor is losing at home in the playoffs to the #8 team (though we should have won, it wasn't a huge upset for NDSU to win or anything)
2024 - 9-0 baby

When you look at it, I'd argue Vigen has more total "upset" type wins than Choate, but the problem is none of them have been against the Griz. And I don't think he has a bad loss in terms of the opponent, but a few bad losses in terms of the final score. Choate had a few bad losses, mainly the Idaho State one UND and Sac ended up being good in 2019 but losing back to back to unranked teams, one at home for homecoming, was bad.

Seems like you're slanting your data a bit in Vigen's favor. Or maybe just define what you consider an upset, if not by point spread favorite?

2019 Cat griz had the griz favored by 5. Also, the Cats were #8 and griz were #3. So I'm not sure why you wouldn't consider that an upset.

2021 sdsu was an unseeded team playing on the road and the Cats were the 8 seed. I'm not sure why you consider that an upset.

2024 the Cats were double digit favorites to beat New Mexico. It was a good win beating an FBS for sure, but it was not an upset.

Vigen's bad losses are getting blown out twice in missoula despite being the favorite in 2021, plus the Idaho game last year and the ndsu playoff loss in Bozeman last year.

I don't think I'd call the NDSU game a bad loss. It was an evenly matched game against a good team.

Idaho wasn't a bad loss either.

Eh.

They played like ass for half a game and lost to a team that was clearly worse than them. In retrospect, a sign of what last season would become. One wonders if this years team would be as good if last year didn’t happen though. I don’t think it would be.

Idaho was good enough to be seeded #4 and we only lost to them by a field goal on the road. So technically not a bad loss. I still agree that we played bad and should have won the game but by the metrics people are using it wasn't a bad loss.

[BelligerentBobcat]

Another difference is Choate team was underdog in almost every big game. Vigen teams are typically top 5 and at least top 10. So every game is big for the opposing team

I don't love these threads, especially mid season but I am feeling like diving in for some reason so here I go.

Choate teams had a lot more opportunities for upsets because they were a bad football team for the first 2 years, pretty good the third year and really good the last year under Choate. But that last year when the Cats finished 11-4? Got whooped at home for homecoming by Sac State, and followed that up with a ugly 12-16 loss @ unranked UND. That's what you get with teams who run on fire and emotion, you can lose games you have no business losing. And I'm not sure Choate had that many upsets, it was mainly the Griz.

For fun, and this is subjective a bit:

Upsets:

Choate:
2016 - UM
2017 - #17 UND (who finished 3-8), UM
2018 - None
2019 - None (I don't consider UM an upset since it was #8 vs #3 at home in Bozeman)

Vigen:
2021 - SHSU, SDSU. On the road at Weber felt like a pivotal win but we were #9 they were #19. Also @ EWU who was #5 felt like an upset but not sure I'd call it one.
2022 - None, but we were top 4 the entire year and the only possible chance at an upset was in Brookings, or Oregon State.
2023 - Again, we were top 3-6 almost the whole year, only opportunity was again in Brookings, and maybe Cat/Griz but that was #3 vs #4.
2024 - New Mexico, yes an FBS win is an upset until we prove we can do it routinely.

Bad Losses (other team upset the Cats):

Choate:
2016 - We were bad this year so not sure any of the losses could be considered upsets for the other team, but Sac only won 2 games that year and one was against us.
2017 - None
2018 - Idaho State, woof. Idaho State did finish 6-5 that year but that was an upset even though MSU wasn't ranked at the time.
2019 - Unranked UND, unranked Sac at home. Sac was brutal but they were good.

Vigen:
2021 - None
2022 - None
2023 - None, losing on the road to the #1, #9, and #3 teams aren't bad losses, nor is losing at home in the playoffs to the #8 team (though we should have won, it wasn't a huge upset for NDSU to win or anything)
2024 - 9-0 baby

When you look at it, I'd argue Vigen has more total "upset" type wins than Choate, but the problem is none of them have been against the Griz. And I don't think he has a bad loss in terms of the opponent, but a few bad losses in terms of the final score. Choate had a few bad losses, mainly the Idaho State one UND and Sac ended up being good in 2019 but losing back to back to unranked teams, one at home for homecoming, was bad.

Seems like you're slanting your data a bit in Vigen's favor. Or maybe just define what you consider an upset, if not by point spread favorite?

2019 Cat griz had the griz favored by 5. Also, the Cats were #8 and griz were #3. So I'm not sure why you wouldn't consider that an upset.

2021 sdsu was an unseeded team playing on the road and the Cats were the 8 seed. I'm not sure why you consider that an upset.

2024 the Cats were double digit favorites to beat New Mexico. It was a good win beating an FBS for sure, but it was not an upset.

Vigen's bad losses are getting blown out twice in missoula despite being the favorite in 2021, plus the Idaho game last year and the ndsu playoff loss in Bozeman last year.

I don't think I'd call the NDSU game a bad loss. It was an evenly matched game against a good team.

Idaho wasn't a bad loss either.

Eh.

They played like ass for half a game and lost to a team that was clearly worse than them. In retrospect, a sign of what last season would become. One wonders if this years team would be as good if last year didn’t happen though. I don’t think it would be.

Idaho was good enough to be seeded #4 and we only lost to them by a field goal on the road. So technically not a bad loss. I still agree that we played bad and should have won the game but by the metrics people are using it wasn't a bad loss.

It was a bad loss because we were clearly the better team.

Whereas the NDSU loss wasn’t because both teams were pretty evenly matched.

[onceacat]

MSU hadn't beaten EWU since 2011 when Vigen arrived and he's 4-0. You have to go back to 1997 before you get four wins over EWU. 2011, 2010, 2001,1997. MSU didn't play EWU in 2019.

From 2003 to 2021, MSU had only beaten EWU twice (2-15; 3-20 from 1998-2021). From 2002-2021, MSU beat UM nine times (9-8). From 1997 to now MSU has beaten EWU eight times, and UM 10 times with a game remaining vs UM.

EWU has been terrible ever since Vigen arrived. Something like 6-27 over the last 3 years? (Too lazy to actually check up)

[TomCat88]

MSU hadn't beaten EWU since 2011 when Vigen arrived and he's 4-0. You have to go back to 1997 before you get four wins over EWU. 2011, 2010, 2001,1997. MSU didn't play EWU in 2019.

From 2003 to 2021, MSU had only beaten EWU twice (2-15; 3-20 from 1998-2021). From 2002-2021, MSU beat UM nine times (9-8). From 1997 to now MSU has beaten EWU eight times, and UM 10 times with a game remaining vs UM.

EWU has been terrible ever since Vigen arrived. Something like 6-27 over the last 3 years? (Too lazy to actually check up)

Without looking it up EWU is 9-22. 9-18 vs FCS. Vigen arrived in 2021. EWU was 10-3 that year. You might want to double check that though.

[4KornerKat]

MSU hadn't beaten EWU since 2011 when Vigen arrived and he's 4-0. You have to go back to 1997 before you get four wins over EWU. 2011, 2010, 2001,1997. MSU didn't play EWU in 2019.

From 2003 to 2021, MSU had only beaten EWU twice (2-15; 3-20 from 1998-2021). From 2002-2021, MSU beat UM nine times (9-8). From 1997 to now MSU has beaten EWU eight times, and UM 10 times with a game remaining vs UM.

EWU has been terrible ever since Vigen arrived. Something like 6-27 over the last 3 years? (Too lazy to actually check up)

Without looking it up EWU is 9-22. 9-18 vs FCS. Vigen arrived in 2021. EWU was 10-3 that year. You might want to double check that though.

With Aaron Best as Coach:
2017: 7-4
2018: 12-3 Lost in NCAA Championship
2019: 7-5
2020/1 Spring: 5-2 Lost first round
2021: 10-3 Lost second Round
2022: 3-8 - Only beat Tennessee State, Cal Poly, and Northern Colorado
2023: 4-7 - Only beat SELA, #15 UC Davis, Weber, and Cal Poly.

[wbtfg]

MSU hadn't beaten EWU since 2011 when Vigen arrived and he's 4-0. You have to go back to 1997 before you get four wins over EWU. 2011, 2010, 2001,1997. MSU didn't play EWU in 2019.

From 2003 to 2021, MSU had only beaten EWU twice (2-15; 3-20 from 1998-2021). From 2002-2021, MSU beat UM nine times (9-8). From 1997 to now MSU has beaten EWU eight times, and UM 10 times with a game remaining vs UM.

EWU has been terrible ever since Vigen arrived. Something like 6-27 over the last 3 years? (Too lazy to actually check up)

Without looking it up EWU is 9-22. 9-18 vs FCS. Vigen arrived in 2021. EWU was 10-3 that year. You might want to double check that though.

With Aaron Best as Coach:
2017: 7-4
2018: 12-3 Lost in NCAA Championship
2019: 7-5
2020/1 Spring: 5-2 Lost first round
2021: 10-3 Lost second Round
2022: 3-8 - Only beat Tennessee State, Cal Poly, and Northern Colorado
2023: 4-7 - Only beat SELA, #15 UC Davis, Weber, and Cal Poly.

I remember being at a qb club meeting shortly after Best was hired. Choate kind of laughed and said something to the effect that he's no Beau Baldwin and that he expected EWOO to take a downward turn.