QB Talk

[083190]

Gut feeling,...next year's starter is not on the current roster.

[GoldstoneCat]

People are so enamored with quarterbacks that they forget that many teams go far and even win championships without good quarterbacks. Just look at all the FBS, FCS, NFL title contenders over the years. It’s a huge list. Then there’s the list of great quarterbacks that didn’t win championships.

Like who?

Brad Johnson. Trent Dilfer. Nick Foles. Jim Mcmahon. Hell Tommy took us to frisco on a heater but he wasn't a championship caliber qb at the time. I don't think Cam Miller was anywhere close to a high level qb the year we lost to ndsu. Brock Purdy went to a super bowl. You can definitely QB-proof a roster. I agree with Tom though, I don't think we have a qb proof roster because I don't think our defense is good enough. Offense will have to carry us if we're going to contend.

[BelligerentBobcat]

People are so enamored with quarterbacks that they forget that many teams go far and even win championships without good quarterbacks. Just look at all the FBS, FCS, NFL title contenders over the years. It’s a huge list. Then there’s the list of great quarterbacks that didn’t win championships.

A huge list? I can think of Nick Foles, and he caught a massive hot streak. I guess somebody could argue one of the Alabama QB’s, but we aren’t as far above our peers as those teams were talent wise.

Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, mark Rypien, Jeff Hostetler, Doug Williams, Jim Plunkett all won superbowl.

I doubt many even remember half these guys:
Chris Weinke
Josh Heupel
Ken Dorsey
Tee Martin*
Matt Mauck
Chris Leak
Matt Flynn
Greg McElroy
Craig Krenzel
All won FBS titles.
*won the year after Peyton Manning left after not winning one.

When your best examples are from 20 years ago, you’re really stretching it. The game is different, defensive rules have changed.

For the record though, Chris Weinke was a tremendous college QB. He won the Heismam! Heupel was also fantastic. The only reason he didn’t win the Heisman was because of Weinke.

Ken Dorsey played on the most talented college football teams of all time. Chris Leak shared playing time with a guy by the name of Tim Tebow.

None of those are recent examples, none of them apply to the game that’s being played today. It’s an offensive driven game, and primarily a QB driven offensive game.

[TomCat88]

People are so enamored with quarterbacks that they forget that many teams go far and even win championships without good quarterbacks. Just look at all the FBS, FCS, NFL title contenders over the years. It’s a huge list. Then there’s the list of great quarterbacks that didn’t win championships.

Like who?

Brad Johnson. Trent Dilfer. Nick Foles. Jim Mcmahon. Hell Tommy took us to frisco on a heater but he wasn't a championship caliber qb at the time. I don't think Cam Miller was anywhere close to a high level qb the year we lost to ndsu. Brock Purdy went to a super bowl. You can definitely QB-proof a roster. I agree with Tom though, I don't think we have a qb proof roster because I don't think our defense is good enough. Offense will have to carry us if we're going to contend.

I think the defense is going to be the big story this season for MSU. I like Daly being in charge and the addition of Owens. The staff all around is very good. I expect to see some new wrinkles with Daly and Howe calling the shots.

[tetoncat]

Defense was very good at times but couldn't get off field in key situations. Seabass didn't make as many big plays as I expected, LB were average but battled injury and depth, 3rd string nickel, dbs I would say above avg coverage below as tacklers. 7 or 8 with starting experience back. I don't think it is as big a question as some on here.

[TomCat88]

People are so enamored with quarterbacks that they forget that many teams go far and even win championships without good quarterbacks. Just look at all the FBS, FCS, NFL title contenders over the years. It’s a huge list. Then there’s the list of great quarterbacks that didn’t win championships.

A huge list? I can think of Nick Foles, and he caught a massive hot streak. I guess somebody could argue one of the Alabama QB’s, but we aren’t as far above our peers as those teams were talent wise.

Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, mark Rypien, Jeff Hostetler, Doug Williams, Jim Plunkett all won superbowl.

I doubt many even remember half these guys:
Chris Weinke
Josh Heupel
Ken Dorsey
Tee Martin*
Matt Mauck
Chris Leak
Matt Flynn
Greg McElroy
Craig Krenzel
All won FBS titles.
*won the year after Peyton Manning left after not winning one.

When your best examples are from 20 years ago, you’re really stretching it. The game is different, defensive rules have changed.

For the record though, Chris Weinke was a tremendous college QB. He won the Heismam! Heupel was also fantastic. The only reason he didn’t win the Heisman was because of Weinke.

Ken Dorsey played on the most talented college football teams of all time. Chris Leak shared playing time with a guy by the name of Tim Tebow.

None of those are recent examples, none of them apply to the game that’s being played today. It’s an offensive driven game, and primarily a QB driven offensive game.

Like I said the game in the last 20 years has evolved to a QB driven and therefore there are a lot more good QBs. This also raises the bar on what is considered good. QBs that completed over 50% of their passes and threw more tds than INTs were considered good back in the day.

The lists above are just QBs on championship teams. If you look at QBs on title contenders, as I stated, it’s gets much bigger.

You also have to look at QBs that were considered great that never or barely won a title. I’m old and paid a lot more attention back in the day so I’m sorry that a lot of these players that come to mind are from a while ago. Tarkenton, Marino, Moon, Favre, Rodgers, Brees, Warner, newton, won a combined four Super Bowls in a combined approximately 100+ seasons. Like ten MVP trophies in that group. Manning was a superstar in college but didn’t win a championship, however, Tennessee won the next year with Tee Martin.

Point being: it’s great (and much easier these days) to have a good QB, but there are many examples of teams winning without good QBs. Good is a relative term, especially statistically, over the years as noted previously.

Two of the last three FCS runners up have had QBs that didn’t start the season. McDowell had a good stretch during the last part of the regular season but his playoff numbers were subpar. UM was driven by a great defense and a kick/punt returner, especially in the playoffs.

QBs today are putting up relatively ridiculous numbers due to rules changes and a high concentration on training. Today you need to be hitting on close to 65% and have a TD to interception ratio of 5:1 to get noticed.

[catscat]

I personally believe and expect that we will see a defensive change akin to going from Gregorak to Ioane.

[94VegasCat]

If the Spring Game tackling ability is indicative of how much better the 2024 D will be, we’re in great hands.

As for QB play. If I was the opposing D coordinator, I’d tell my guys to tackle #4 every play. Tommy is great, now doubt. But every person in the stadium knows he’s going to run it. Let’s be more conventional and let the RBs run the ball and have the QBs throw the ball. When on occasion, Tommy keeps it’ll be a surprise and probably a big gainer. Key on Tommy until he hands it off more than he keeps.

[BelligerentBobcat]

Some of you act like he’s running the ball 20 times a game.

Let’s be real, a huge part of his success is his ability to run. If he stops doing that, his impact is significantly lessened.

[TomCat88]

If you do a search on mobile or pocket QBs getting hurt more frequently, you’ll find that there are reports that say pocket QBs get injured more frequently.

Injuries are mostly just bad luck or hubris unless the person has a bone density problem.

I haven’t dug into but it could be that losing a dual-threat QB is more damaging to an offense than losing a pocket passer. Dualies seem to make up a larger percentage of total offense.

[94VegasCat]

Some of you act like he’s running the ball 20 times a game.

Let’s be real, a huge part of his success is his ability to run. If he stops doing that, his impact is significantly lessened.

I feel like if he kept half as many, he’d gain half again as many yards. Keep defenses honest. Until he runs less than 10x a game he’ll ride the pine on crutches. There’s zero doubt his run game is amazing but generally when it’s a suprise.

[BornBobcat2000]

Some of you act like he’s running the ball 20 times a game.

Let’s be real, a huge part of his success is his ability to run. If he stops doing that, his impact is significantly lessened.

Agreed. Tommy is at his best when we cut him loose and let him just play ball. His best passing games have been when he’s been free to run and get into the rhythm of the game. He’s so scary for defenses when he gets in the zone, and even though injury is a definite concern, I think we need to let Tommy be Tommy, particularly in big games.

[Cataholic]

If the Spring Game tackling ability is indicative of how much better the 2024 D will be, we’re in great hands.

As for QB play. If I was the opposing D coordinator, I’d tell my guys to tackle #4 every play. Tommy is great, now doubt. But every person in the stadium knows he’s going to run it. Let’s be more conventional and let the RBs run the ball and have the QBs throw the ball. When on occasion, Tommy keeps it’ll be a surprise and probably a big gainer. Key on Tommy until he hands it off more than he keeps.

Tommy actually only had two games last year where he had more than 11 carries: Sac State (17) and NDSU (18).

[lutecat]

Uou guys realize that when we played really good defenses they fooled Tommy into keeping it when he shouldn't have. Tommy chooses to run when Tommy runs most of the time. It's based on a read. And when the D disguises the coverage we'll enough he runs when he shouldn't.

Remember the game plans when Tommy went down and Sean had to come in with the Tommy game plan? Sean didn't perform nearly as well as the next game when the game plan revolved around his skills. So maybe we just need a game plan that revolves around whichever backup's skills and we'll have a pretty good dude when we need him.

[BelligerentBobcat]

Some of you act like he’s running the ball 20 times a game.

Let’s be real, a huge part of his success is his ability to run. If he stops doing that, his impact is significantly lessened.

I feel like if he kept half as many, he’d gain half again as many yards. Keep defenses honest. Until he runs less than 10x a game he’ll ride the pine on crutches. There’s zero doubt his run game is amazing but generally when it’s a suprise.

He averaged like 10 a game and a few of those per game were scrambles.

Also, his running is never going to be a surprise. It’s what defensive coaches game plan against. It hasn’t been a surprise since his first game in the playoffs.

[ThoughtUKnew14]

At a QB Club meeting Vigen mentioned that Reed can do things Tommy and Sean cannot do. He did not elaborate but I took it to mean a better passer.

And you would be right. Reed is light years ahead of Tommy in terms of a passer. The staff knows this and I really hope they allow Reed to continue to develop in game situations.

[Justwinbaby]

People are so enamored with quarterbacks that they forget that many teams go far and even win championships without good quarterbacks. Just look at all the FBS, FCS, NFL title contenders over the years. It’s a huge list. Then there’s the list of great quarterbacks that didn’t win championships.

A huge list? I can think of Nick Foles, and he caught a massive hot streak. I guess somebody could argue one of the Alabama QB’s, but we aren’t as far above our peers as those teams were talent wise.

Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, mark Rypien, Jeff Hostetler, Doug Williams, Jim Plunkett all won superbowl.

I doubt many even remember half these guys:
Chris Weinke
Josh Heupel
Ken Dorsey
Tee Martin*
Matt Mauck
Chris Leak
Matt Flynn
Greg McElroy
Craig Krenzel
All won FBS titles.
*won the year after Peyton Manning left after not winning one.

Now do the other side of the equation. Name the QBs whole led FBS, FCS, AND NFL title contenders. I guarantee the list is longer and much more impressive.

Excellent and elite QBs matter much more than you imply.

[TomCat88]

People are so enamored with quarterbacks that they forget that many teams go far and even win championships without good quarterbacks. Just look at all the FBS, FCS, NFL title contenders over the years. It’s a huge list. Then there’s the list of great quarterbacks that didn’t win championships.

A huge list? I can think of Nick Foles, and he caught a massive hot streak. I guess somebody could argue one of the Alabama QB’s, but we aren’t as far above our peers as those teams were talent wise.

Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, mark Rypien, Jeff Hostetler, Doug Williams, Jim Plunkett all won superbowl.

I doubt many even remember half these guys:
Chris Weinke
Josh Heupel
Ken Dorsey
Tee Martin*
Matt Mauck
Chris Leak
Matt Flynn
Greg McElroy
Craig Krenzel
All won FBS titles.
*won the year after Peyton Manning left after not winning one.

Now do the other side of the equation. Name the QBs whole led FBS, FCS, AND NFL title contenders. I guarantee the list is longer and much more impressive.

Excellent and elite QBs matter much more than you imply.

I would do that, but I think most sports fans realize that good quarterbacks lead to title contending teams and I'm not implying that they don't. My point is that not all title contenders have good QBs and are led to their positions by good players/systems in other areas.

[Justwinbaby]

People are so enamored with quarterbacks that they forget that many teams go far and even win championships without good quarterbacks. Just look at all the FBS, FCS, NFL title contenders over the years. It’s a huge list. Then there’s the list of great quarterbacks that didn’t win championships.

A huge list? I can think of Nick Foles, and he caught a massive hot streak. I guess somebody could argue one of the Alabama QB’s, but we aren’t as far above our peers as those teams were talent wise.

Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, mark Rypien, Jeff Hostetler, Doug Williams, Jim Plunkett all won superbowl.

I doubt many even remember half these guys:
Chris Weinke
Josh Heupel
Ken Dorsey
Tee Martin*
Matt Mauck
Chris Leak
Matt Flynn
Greg McElroy
Craig Krenzel
All won FBS titles.
*won the year after Peyton Manning left after not winning one.

Now do the other side of the equation. Name the QBs whole led FBS, FCS, AND NFL title contenders. I guarantee the list is longer and much more impressive.

Excellent and elite QBs matter much more than you imply.

I would do that, but I think most sports fans realize that good quarterbacks lead to title contending teams and I'm not implying that they don't. My point is that not all title contenders have good QBs and are led to their positions by good players/systems in other areas.

Let's look at just your 1st list above.

JOHNSON - played 17 NFL seasons. Played both D1 football and BB at Florida State. He'll of an athlete - a good QB.

DILFER - played 14 NFL seasons. College Sammy Baugh Trophy winner. 6th overall pick in 1994. 1997 Pro Bowl - a good QB.

RYPIEN - played 14 NFL seasons. 1st Team all PAC 10 QB. 2x Superbowl champ and 1 x MVP. 1991 All Pro and 2 x Pro bowls - a good QB.

HOSTETLER - played 14 years in NFL. 2 x super bowl champ. Pro bowl 1994. 3rd TM college All American - a good QB.

PLUNKETT - played 15 seasons in the NFL. 2x super bowl champ. 1x super bowl MVP. AFC rookie of the year. Heisman Trophy, Maxwell trophy, Walter Camp award. Consensus College All American. College FB Hall of Fame. 1st round draft pick - a good QB.

Every one of these guys were good to great QBs.

[Cledus]

Our QB Guru needs to start guruing.

That's what I was thinking. He had an NFL QB on the team who may have stayed. To be fair, I did not think at the time Bauman leaving was a huge loss. In hindsight you can't help but wonder if things would have been different with better development.