FBS move-up handwriting on the wall!

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Camo_Cat
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Re: FBS move-up handwriting on the wall!

Post by Camo_Cat » Thu Dec 07, 2023 12:11 pm

AFCAT wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 12:07 pm
Prodigal Cat wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 11:51 am
AFCAT wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 11:07 am
Prodigal Cat wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 10:52 am
AFCAT wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 10:22 pm
Yup, just waiting on that big old magic pot of money to materialize to make this really easy move up to the FBS light league.
You post this in every thread about moving up likes its a good one. It isn't. Celtic did a great job in the "moving up" thread laying out the differences between MSU and a few regional, similar institutions that operate in the MWC. Things like corporate support, media and NCAA distributions all go up at the FBS level and would carry the bulk of the heavy lifting.

https://bobcatnation.com/bobcatbb/viewt ... 45#p822897

Really with just modest boost in institutional support MSU would be a operational MW school. If we got NAU type of support along with fan support (ticket sales) they would be toward the top of the pack. So stop pedaling this myth that the money is too big of a hurdle. It isn't. Lots of schools run FBS programs with much less fan support than MSU.
Yup, so easy. Can’t wait. That money will always be there too. When is it going to happen?
Looks like you read it and gave a reason, measured and mature response.
Yes, because a BN thread will be used by as a roadmap for moving up to the FBS. Pass the thread on to Leon and Waded, they will be making the decisions. I’m just wondering what’s holding up the big move.
Yeah, we'll just take the $5 million to pay for FBS move-up fee out of the IPF fundraising dollars. That will make everyone happy. Not to mention all the additional scholarships and other sports we would be required to add.



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Re: FBS move-up handwriting on the wall!

Post by Helcat72 » Thu Dec 07, 2023 12:44 pm

I hope everything will settle down after a couple of years...I just hope none of our transfers end up at UM!


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Re: FBS move-up handwriting on the wall!

Post by 91catAlum » Thu Dec 07, 2023 1:03 pm

Prodigal Cat wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 11:50 am
91catAlum wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 11:26 am
AFCAT wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 11:07 am
Prodigal Cat wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 10:52 am
AFCAT wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 10:22 pm
Yup, just waiting on that big old magic pot of money to materialize to make this really easy move up to the FBS light league.
You post this in every thread about moving up likes its a good one. It isn't. Celtic did a great job in the "moving up" thread laying out the differences between MSU and a few regional, similar institutions that operate in the MWC. Things like corporate support, media and NCAA distributions all go up at the FBS level and would carry the bulk of the heavy lifting.

https://bobcatnation.com/bobcatbb/viewt ... 45#p822897

Really with just modest boost in institutional support MSU would be a operational MW school. If we got NAU type of support along with fan support (ticket sales) they would be toward the top of the pack. So stop pedaling this myth that the money is too big of a hurdle. It isn't. Lots of schools run FBS programs with much less fan support than MSU.
Yup, so easy. Can’t wait. That money will always be there too. When is it going to happen?
SO easy! Just look at the success of Nevada or FBS Idaho! Many seasons of winning, bowl appearances, full stadiums, etc.
I'm confused. Are you referring to the decade that Nevada made a bowl game every year from 2005 to 2015 except one? Or the 4 years straight from 2018 to 2021 that they went bowling? Or the fact that they average more in attendance than any team not named MT in the BSC last season despite being one of the worst FBS teams in the country and worst attended season they've had in 30+ years? AND averaged more fans than MSU in 2021. That Nevada?
https://nevadasportsnet.com/news/report ... since-1989

AND continue to use the Idaho crutch. The one lone team to move back to FCS among the dozens that have moved up in the last 3 decades. The team that has 2 FBS teams with in a few hours drive of them that were already established. That play in a crappy dome in a tiny town that is hard to get to.
Thats fair, Nevada has had some success in the past. 13 of the last 20 seasons were winning seasons. But 6 of those 13 were just barely, at 7-6. So, 7 of the last 20 years, they did better than 7-6 (better than 54% win rate).

They had 1 great year - ONE - in the last 20, where they went 13-1 and went on to win the "Fight Hunger" bowl over Boston College. How proud they must be to have that trophy in their case!
Overall, they are 5-9 in bowl games during the last 20 years.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/sc ... index.html

Attendance-wise, 2012-2015 were the only consistent years of more attendance than MSU draws today. All other years are less than MSU draws today (save 2003 and a few in the mid 90s).

I guess its all opinion, but I'm not sure many people would call Nevada's time in FBS a big success even for a G5.
Last edited by 91catAlum on Thu Dec 07, 2023 1:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: FBS move-up handwriting on the wall!

Post by PapaG » Thu Dec 07, 2023 1:10 pm

91catAlum wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 10:17 pm
MSU can't afford to move up. It costs much, much more to compete in FBS.

First you've got 22 additional scholarships to pay for. Then you have 4-5x salaries for the coaching staff (Choate just signed for $5.7 million, 5 years at one of the worst FBS schools). And now you need the huge NIL pot if you want to be competitive and retain talent.
Add in another 22 women’s scholarships to be paid as well due to Title IX.


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Re: FBS move-up handwriting on the wall!

Post by mchammer » Thu Dec 07, 2023 1:15 pm

PapaG wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 1:10 pm
91catAlum wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 10:17 pm
MSU can't afford to move up. It costs much, much more to compete in FBS.

First you've got 22 additional scholarships to pay for. Then you have 4-5x salaries for the coaching staff (Choate just signed for $5.7 million, 5 years at one of the worst FBS schools). And now you need the huge NIL pot if you want to be competitive and retain talent.
Add in another 22 women’s scholarships to be paid as well due to Title IX.
And additional sports, staff, facilities, travel.



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Re: FBS move-up handwriting on the wall!

Post by Berkeley_Griz » Thu Dec 07, 2023 1:37 pm

People are drastically underestimating what it takes to move, especially in regards to local and regional population (which relates to attendance and recruiting territory).

Ultimately, move up advocates must prioritize games against opponents they see as "bigger," like Wyoming, Colorado State, Boise, etc. That's fine and completely understandable. Heck yes I'd enjoy seeing Wyoming or Boise State travel to Missoula.

On the other hand, stick in the FCS advocates prioritize having a meaningful season where you can play for a playoff berth/ run and the chance at a title. That's also completely understandable.

You just can't have both, so it comes down to what you value more. Because you can't get a consistent stream of FBS opponents at the same time that you'll ever sniff any real playoff run again.



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Re: FBS move-up handwriting on the wall!

Post by tetoncat » Thu Dec 07, 2023 1:51 pm

mchammer wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 1:15 pm
PapaG wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 1:10 pm
91catAlum wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 10:17 pm
MSU can't afford to move up. It costs much, much more to compete in FBS.

First you've got 22 additional scholarships to pay for. Then you have 4-5x salaries for the coaching staff (Choate just signed for $5.7 million, 5 years at one of the worst FBS schools). And now you need the huge NIL pot if you want to be competitive and retain talent.
Add in another 22 women’s scholarships to be paid as well due to Title IX.
And additional sports, staff, facilities, travel.
Are T&F and volleyball capped for scholarships


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Re: FBS move-up handwriting on the wall!

Post by CatsNoMatterWhat » Thu Dec 07, 2023 4:01 pm

A poster on a different thread said something that made me start to waffle on my "pointless to move up" position; that being if the FCS is dying.

The poster mentioned that the FCS is extraordinarily top heavy (which it is) with relatively little parody (which there isn't); essentially the same 8-10 teams are fighting for the semis every year.

If that's the case, then it makes sense from a FOOTBALL standpoint to look into making the jump if there is a conference that presents itself to get ahead of the rush if the FCS comes undone (not sure how it would come undone...but as we saw with the Pac-12, anything is possible).

With that said though...just because something makes sense from a football standpoint doesn't mean it makes sense institutionally, which many folks on this thread have pointed out it wouldn't...MSU would be in a very tight spot financially if the move to FBS ever became a reality.

It will be interesting to see in 10 years how this all shakes out...but I would be shocked if in 10 years the Cats and Griz (and NDSU and SDSU) were still FCS schools. Just a hunch.



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Re: FBS move-up handwriting on the wall!

Post by AFCAT » Thu Dec 07, 2023 5:02 pm

CatsNoMatterWhat wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 4:01 pm
A poster on a different thread said something that made me start to waffle on my "pointless to move up" position; that being if the FCS is dying.

The poster mentioned that the FCS is extraordinarily top heavy (which it is) with relatively little parody (which there isn't); essentially the same 8-10 teams are fighting for the semis every year.

If that's the case, then it makes sense from a FOOTBALL standpoint to look into making the jump if there is a conference that presents itself to get ahead of the rush if the FCS comes undone (not sure how it would come undone...but as we saw with the Pac-12, anything is possible).

With that said though...just because something makes sense from a football standpoint doesn't mean it makes sense institutionally, which many folks on this thread have pointed out it wouldn't...MSU would be in a very tight spot financially if the move to FBS ever became a reality.

It will be interesting to see in 10 years how this all shakes out...but I would be shocked if in 10 years the Cats and Griz (and NDSU and SDSU) were still FCS schools. Just a hunch.
The FBS is extraordinarily top heavy as well with little to no parity, essentially the same teams fighting for the playoff spots and the championship every year.

Conferences have been changing as long as there have been conferences. That's a bit different than moving up from FCS to FBS and all the costs associated with it. Although, these schools consolidating into nationwide conferences, instead of regional ones, will certainly increase costs and hurt their student athletes in other ways (long travel times, etc.).

The next ten years will certainly be interesting to see how it all shakes out.
Last edited by AFCAT on Thu Dec 07, 2023 6:01 pm, edited 4 times in total.


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Re: FBS move-up handwriting on the wall!

Post by Bobcat4Ever » Thu Dec 07, 2023 5:05 pm

As the CFP continues to expand it’s only a matter of time until the rest of the FBS wants/gets a playoff system which could make more bowls relevant. I think the either/or is going to get fuzzy, and at that point there will be some reconfigurations.



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Re: FBS move-up handwriting on the wall!

Post by onceacat » Thu Dec 07, 2023 8:52 pm

Berkeley_Griz wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 9:27 am
catsrback76 wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 8:43 pm
I have been reading this week about how the NIL and the transfer portal has completely changed the landscape of college football. Obviously we’re seeing the results of that as we’ve got 6 in the portal and our lines are being devastated by the cherry picking that money and transferring is NOW the reality!

So, it appears to me that a “move up” to the FBS may not be an issue of FCS team getting too big for the FCS, but rather a question of “is the FCS simply a stock yard” for the FBS?

If that’s the case I think it may in fact be true that for MSU and UM that the “handwriting is on the wall” and a move up may be the inevitable trajectory of our teams. I’ve been against the move up, but now it’s clear that things like “program” are only going to be cotton candy talk and aren’t reality in this new situation!

Your thoughts?
If you're in the bottom rungs of FBS (G5), then good players will just "move up" to the Big 12/ ACC. If you're in the Big 12/ ACC, then good players will just "move up" to the B1G/ SEC.

Going to FBS doesn't solve any transfer issues. It does, however, require 1) dramatically more money to operate and 2) recruiting much, much better players in the first place to even compete.

All to play at a level where you (or UM) will never remotely sniff the chance at any national title (or even a semifinal) ever again.
By and large, MSU & UM (and the DSUs) are already recruiting the same caliber of players as the MWC. Only difference is the number of scholarships.



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Re: FBS move-up handwriting on the wall!

Post by onceacat » Thu Dec 07, 2023 8:58 pm

Bobcat4Ever wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 5:05 pm
As the CFP continues to expand it’s only a matter of time until the rest of the FBS wants/gets a playoff system which could make more bowls relevant. I think the either/or is going to get fuzzy, and at that point there will be some reconfigurations.
I think you are right on an emotional level. Nobody really likes the bowl system relative to a real playoff. The problem is that ESPN needs the bowls in order to sell advertising in November & December.

All that money that pays for Jeff Choate to make 6mill/year? Comes mostly from TV ads.

Until you figure out the economics of the TV contract, I just don't see how we get to a real playoff for th eG5 even though everyone would prefer it.



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Re: FBS move-up handwriting on the wall!

Post by RickRund » Fri Dec 08, 2023 3:24 pm

91catAlum wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 1:03 pm
Prodigal Cat wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 11:50 am
91catAlum wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 11:26 am
AFCAT wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 11:07 am
Prodigal Cat wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 10:52 am
AFCAT wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 10:22 pm
Yup, just waiting on that big old magic pot of money to materialize to make this really easy move up to the FBS light league.
You post this in every thread about moving up likes its a good one. It isn't. Celtic did a great job in the "moving up" thread laying out the differences between MSU and a few regional, similar institutions that operate in the MWC. Things like corporate support, media and NCAA distributions all go up at the FBS level and would carry the bulk of the heavy lifting.

https://bobcatnation.com/bobcatbb/viewt ... 45#p822897

Really with just modest boost in institutional support MSU would be a operational MW school. If we got NAU type of support along with fan support (ticket sales) they would be toward the top of the pack. So stop pedaling this myth that the money is too big of a hurdle. It isn't. Lots of schools run FBS programs with much less fan support than MSU.
Yup, so easy. Can’t wait. That money will always be there too. When is it going to happen?
SO easy! Just look at the success of Nevada or FBS Idaho! Many seasons of winning, bowl appearances, full stadiums, etc.
I'm confused. Are you referring to the decade that Nevada made a bowl game every year from 2005 to 2015 except one? Or the 4 years straight from 2018 to 2021 that they went bowling? Or the fact that they average more in attendance than any team not named MT in the BSC last season despite being one of the worst FBS teams in the country and worst attended season they've had in 30+ years? AND averaged more fans than MSU in 2021. That Nevada?
https://nevadasportsnet.com/news/report ... since-1989

AND continue to use the Idaho crutch. The one lone team to move back to FCS among the dozens that have moved up in the last 3 decades. The team that has 2 FBS teams with in a few hours drive of them that were already established. That play in a crappy dome in a tiny town that is hard to get to.
Thats fair, Nevada has had some success in the past. 13 of the last 20 seasons were winning seasons. But 6 of those 13 were just barely, at 7-6. So, 7 of the last 20 years, they did better than 7-6 (better than 54% win rate).

They had 1 great year - ONE - in the last 20, where they went 13-1 and went on to win the "Fight Hunger" bowl over Boston College. How proud they must be to have that trophy in their case!
Overall, they are 5-9 in bowl games during the last 20 years.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/sc ... index.html

Attendance-wise, 2012-2015 were the only consistent years of more attendance than MSU draws today. All other years are less than MSU draws today (save 2003 and a few in the mid 90s).

I guess its all opinion, but I'm not sure many people would call Nevada's time in FBS a big success even for a G5.
Attendance wise they play in a stadium that holds 30,000 so they had better out draw the CATS.


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Re: FBS move-up handwriting on the wall!

Post by 84CatGrad » Fri Dec 08, 2023 11:00 pm

Helcat72 wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 12:44 pm
I hope everything will settle down after a couple of years...I just hope none of our transfers end up at UM!
Wash your mouth out with soap.



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Re: FBS move-up handwriting on the wall!

Post by RickRund » Sat Dec 09, 2023 9:46 am

84CatGrad wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2023 11:00 pm
Helcat72 wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 12:44 pm
I hope everything will settle down after a couple of years...I just hope none of our transfers end up at UM!
Wash your mouth out with soap.
BLASPHEMY...


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Re: FBS move-up handwriting on the wall!

Post by WeedKillinCat » Sat Dec 09, 2023 1:18 pm

The only way I would accept moving up to FBS to G5 would be if there was a similar playoff system to FCS, screw the P5 they are in a league of their own. Also screw the bowl system, No one watches those and who wants a Kotex Light Days Bowl winner banner hanging in their stadium?


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Re: FBS move-up handwriting on the wall!

Post by nanacat » Sun Dec 24, 2023 10:32 am

I watched the Las Vegas bowl last night with Utah playing Northwestern. 14-7 was the final score, Northwesten won, but the game didn't even get somewhat exciting until the 4th quarter when Utah decided to play.
But what was more entertaining to me was the cut during a time out of the Potato Bowl and the winning team dumping a Gatorade cooler full of French fries on the coach instead of, you know, Gatorade. :roll: :lol:
Like others have said, I think a National Championship seems a better thing to play for instead of some random bowl. But we shall see I guess.



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Re: FBS move-up handwriting on the wall!

Post by PapaG » Sun Dec 24, 2023 10:46 am

nanacat wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2023 10:32 am
I watched the Las Vegas bowl last night with Utah playing Northwestern. 14-7 was the final score, Northwesten won, but the game didn't even get somewhat exciting until the 4th quarter when Utah decided to play.
But what was more entertaining to me was the cut during a time out of the Potato Bowl and the winning team dumping a Gatorade cooler full of French fries on the coach instead of, you know, Gatorade. :roll: :lol:
Like others have said, I think a National Championship seems a better thing to play for instead of some random bowl. But we shall see I guess.
Utah had 8 of their best players sit out along with their QB who is in the portal. If the good players don’t care about a bowl game, why would fans? There weren’t many fan there when I saw and it was in Las Vegas.


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Re: FBS move-up handwriting on the wall!

Post by nanacat » Sun Dec 24, 2023 11:01 am

PapaG wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2023 10:46 am
nanacat wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2023 10:32 am
I watched the Las Vegas bowl last night with Utah playing Northwestern. 14-7 was the final score, Northwesten won, but the game didn't even get somewhat exciting until the 4th quarter when Utah decided to play.
But what was more entertaining to me was the cut during a time out of the Potato Bowl and the winning team dumping a Gatorade cooler full of French fries on the coach instead of, you know, Gatorade. :roll: :lol:
Like others have said, I think a National Championship seems a better thing to play for instead of some random bowl. But we shall see I guess.
Utah had 8 of their best players sit out along with their QB who is in the portal. If the good players don’t care about a bowl game, why would fans? There weren’t many fan there when I saw and it was in Las Vegas.
Didn't know those details. That explains alot. But yes, what's the point really?



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Re: FBS move-up handwriting on the wall!

Post by aucat » Sun Dec 24, 2023 11:11 am

I really enjoyed watching JMU get hammered by Air Force. But to comment on the FCS "dying out." Maybe the FCS needs to consider reducing the number of teams that qualify for the national championship playoff? Instead of 24, drop it down to 16. Maybe that a 12 game schedule and drop it to 12. Anyway, this would be one way of addressing the fact that the FCS is getting smaller. I just don't think it makes any sense whatsoever to try to move up to FBS.



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