Moving up

[Cat Grad]

Wyoming, Nevada, Utah State. Wyoming is a body of one and they have a lot of oil and gas money. Utah and Nevada both have more than triple the population of Montana. Higher paying jobs and better tax structures. Utah really supports education, and the Montana Legislature would rather not be bothered by it.

Wyoming actually has education outlined in their State Constitution (I was told they are the only state that has that in their constitution, but that could be wrong). That is why their teachers are among the highest paid (10th) and have one of lowest college tuition for a state university (2nd at $6,440 a year ). So yes, natural resources are a large factor, but it actually is based on the constitutional right to education for Wyomingites.

That’s really interesting. I can’t think of anything with a higher ROI that should be in the base budget. If you start funding something and keep up, it’s a lot easier/cheaper than playing Montana catch-up. Good on Wyoming.

I like it too. I wonder if this is made easier by having only one four-year university in the state. I don't know if this is true or not, but it seems to me Montana could be spending a ton of money subsidizing (even at a low level) so many more four-year institutions in a state of a relatively similar population.

I didn’t look but Wyoming’s population used to be about one-third of Montana’s. I’m sure it’s grown, but maybe still only half as big? Getting hungry.

UPDATE: 580,000 Wyoming current population. In 1960 Wyoming had 330,000 people.

This is telling:

http://www.uwyo.edu/admissions/freshman ... links.html

Especially when you compare it to this:

https://applymontana.mus.edu/colleges/c ... leges.html

What the hell does the MUS have to be thinking when they put a junior college in both Bozeangeles and Sanfranzoola!!!! Then, there are six! SIX! four year degree granting members of the MUS!

How many credits transfer and count toward a degree from one institution to the other in Montana? BOR requires one third of your coursework be taken at that member institution toward a degree in grad schools. Damn good racket.

[allcat]

Wyoming, Nevada, Utah State. Wyoming is a body of one and they have a lot of oil and gas money. Utah and Nevada both have more than triple the population of Montana. Higher paying jobs and better tax structures. Utah really supports education, and the Montana Legislature would rather not be bothered by it.

Wyoming actually has education outlined in their State Constitution (I was told they are the only state that has that in their constitution, but that could be wrong). That is why their teachers are among the highest paid (10th) and have one of lowest college tuition for a state university (2nd at $6,440 a year ). So yes, natural resources are a large factor, but it actually is based on the constitutional right to education for Wyomingites.

That’s really interesting. I can’t think of anything with a higher ROI that should be in the base budget. If you start funding something and keep up, it’s a lot easier/cheaper than playing Montana catch-up. Good on Wyoming.

I like it too. I wonder if this is made easier by having only one four-year university in the state. I don't know if this is true or not, but it seems to me Montana could be spending a ton of money subsidizing (even at a low level) so many more four-year institutions in a state of a relatively similar population.

I didn’t look but Wyoming’s population used to be about one-third of Montana’s. I’m sure it’s grown, but maybe still only half as big? Getting hungry.

UPDATE: 580,000 Wyoming current population. In 1960 Wyoming had 330,000 people.

This is telling:

http://www.uwyo.edu/admissions/freshman ... links.html

Especially when you compare it to this:

https://applymontana.mus.edu/colleges/c ... leges.html

What the hell does the MUS have to be thinking when they put a junior college in both Bozeangeles and Sanfranzoola!!!! Then, there are six! SIX! four year degree granting members of the MUS!

How many credits transfer and count toward a degree from one institution to the other in Montana? BOR requires one third of your coursework be taken at that member institution toward a degree in grad schools. Damn good racket.

Both MSU and UM run the trade schools in those towns. You can get Welding and Auto mechanic there as an example.

[AFCAT]

Wyoming, Nevada, Utah State. Wyoming is a body of one and they have a lot of oil and gas money. Utah and Nevada both have more than triple the population of Montana. Higher paying jobs and better tax structures. Utah really supports education, and the Montana Legislature would rather not be bothered by it.

Wyoming actually has education outlined in their State Constitution (I was told they are the only state that has that in their constitution, but that could be wrong). That is why their teachers are among the highest paid (10th) and have one of lowest college tuition for a state university (2nd at $6,440 a year ). So yes, natural resources are a large factor, but it actually is based on the constitutional right to education for Wyomingites.

That’s really interesting. I can’t think of anything with a higher ROI that should be in the base budget. If you start funding something and keep up, it’s a lot easier/cheaper than playing Montana catch-up. Good on Wyoming.

I like it too. I wonder if this is made easier by having only one four-year university in the state. I don't know if this is true or not, but it seems to me Montana could be spending a ton of money subsidizing (even at a low level) so many more four-year institutions in a state of a relatively similar population.

I didn’t look but Wyoming’s population used to be about one-third of Montana’s. I’m sure it’s grown, but maybe still only half as big? Getting hungry.

UPDATE: 580,000 Wyoming current population. In 1960 Wyoming had 330,000 people.

This is telling:

http://www.uwyo.edu/admissions/freshman ... links.html

Especially when you compare it to this:

https://applymontana.mus.edu/colleges/c ... leges.html

What the hell does the MUS have to be thinking when they put a junior college in both Bozeangeles and Sanfranzoola!!!! Then, there are six! SIX! four year degree granting members of the MUS!

How many credits transfer and count toward a degree from one institution to the other in Montana? BOR requires one third of your coursework be taken at that member institution toward a degree in grad schools. Damn good racket.

Both MSU and UM run the trade schools in those towns. You can get Welding and Auto mechanic there as an example.

All college general education credits (maybe more) transfer in the Montana University System. That was changed way back when Schweizer was Governor.
https://mus.edu/transfer/transfer.html

What's wrong with a kid or adult in Missoula or Bozeman going to a JC in their hometowns? Both cities are major population centers in the state.

[Cat Grad]

Wyoming, Nevada, Utah State. Wyoming is a body of one and they have a lot of oil and gas money. Utah and Nevada both have more than triple the population of Montana. Higher paying jobs and better tax structures. Utah really supports education, and the Montana Legislature would rather not be bothered by it.

Wyoming actually has education outlined in their State Constitution (I was told they are the only state that has that in their constitution, but that could be wrong). That is why their teachers are among the highest paid (10th) and have one of lowest college tuition for a state university (2nd at $6,440 a year ). So yes, natural resources are a large factor, but it actually is based on the constitutional right to education for Wyomingites.

That’s really interesting. I can’t think of anything with a higher ROI that should be in the base budget. If you start funding something and keep up, it’s a lot easier/cheaper than playing Montana catch-up. Good on Wyoming.

I like it too. I wonder if this is made easier by having only one four-year university in the state. I don't know if this is true or not, but it seems to me Montana could be spending a ton of money subsidizing (even at a low level) so many more four-year institutions in a state of a relatively similar population.

I didn’t look but Wyoming’s population used to be about one-third of Montana’s. I’m sure it’s grown, but maybe still only half as big? Getting hungry.

UPDATE: 580,000 Wyoming current population. In 1960 Wyoming had 330,000 people.

This is telling:

http://www.uwyo.edu/admissions/freshman ... links.html

Especially when you compare it to this:

https://applymontana.mus.edu/colleges/c ... leges.html

What the hell does the MUS have to be thinking when they put a junior college in both Bozeangeles and Sanfranzoola!!!! Then, there are six! SIX! four year degree granting members of the MUS!

How many credits transfer and count toward a degree from one institution to the other in Montana? BOR requires one third of your coursework be taken at that member institution toward a degree in grad schools. Damn good racket.

Both MSU and UM run the trade schools in those towns. You can get Welding and Auto mechanic there as an example.

All college general education credits (maybe more) transfer in the Montana University System. That was changed way back when Schweizer was Governor.
https://mus.edu/transfer/transfer.html

What's wrong with a kid or adult in Missoula or Bozeman going to a JC in their hometowns? Both cities are major population centers in the state.

I get it. Y'all like the bloated, oversized MUS versus an efficient, streamlined system that replicates many of the same majors. That's your prerogative. Rather amusing though that MSU's student body is only 44 percent Montana residents.

[AFCAT]

Wyoming, Nevada, Utah State. Wyoming is a body of one and they have a lot of oil and gas money. Utah and Nevada both have more than triple the population of Montana. Higher paying jobs and better tax structures. Utah really supports education, and the Montana Legislature would rather not be bothered by it.

Wyoming actually has education outlined in their State Constitution (I was told they are the only state that has that in their constitution, but that could be wrong). That is why their teachers are among the highest paid (10th) and have one of lowest college tuition for a state university (2nd at $6,440 a year ). So yes, natural resources are a large factor, but it actually is based on the constitutional right to education for Wyomingites.

That’s really interesting. I can’t think of anything with a higher ROI that should be in the base budget. If you start funding something and keep up, it’s a lot easier/cheaper than playing Montana catch-up. Good on Wyoming.

I like it too. I wonder if this is made easier by having only one four-year university in the state. I don't know if this is true or not, but it seems to me Montana could be spending a ton of money subsidizing (even at a low level) so many more four-year institutions in a state of a relatively similar population.

I didn’t look but Wyoming’s population used to be about one-third of Montana’s. I’m sure it’s grown, but maybe still only half as big? Getting hungry.

UPDATE: 580,000 Wyoming current population. In 1960 Wyoming had 330,000 people.

This is telling:

http://www.uwyo.edu/admissions/freshman ... links.html

Especially when you compare it to this:

https://applymontana.mus.edu/colleges/c ... leges.html

What the hell does the MUS have to be thinking when they put a junior college in both Bozeangeles and Sanfranzoola!!!! Then, there are six! SIX! four year degree granting members of the MUS!

How many credits transfer and count toward a degree from one institution to the other in Montana? BOR requires one third of your coursework be taken at that member institution toward a degree in grad schools. Damn good racket.

Both MSU and UM run the trade schools in those towns. You can get Welding and Auto mechanic there as an example.

All college general education credits (maybe more) transfer in the Montana University System. That was changed way back when Schweizer was Governor.
https://mus.edu/transfer/transfer.html

What's wrong with a kid or adult in Missoula or Bozeman going to a JC in their hometowns? Both cities are major population centers in the state.

I get it. Y'all like the bloated, oversized MUS versus an efficient, streamlined system that replicates many of the same majors. That's your prerogative. Rather amusing though that MSU's student body is only 44 percent Montana residents.

[Bobcat4Ever]

Wyoming, Nevada, Utah State. Wyoming is a body of one and they have a lot of oil and gas money. Utah and Nevada both have more than triple the population of Montana. Higher paying jobs and better tax structures. Utah really supports education, and the Montana Legislature would rather not be bothered by it.

Wyoming actually has education outlined in their State Constitution (I was told they are the only state that has that in their constitution, but that could be wrong). That is why their teachers are among the highest paid (10th) and have one of lowest college tuition for a state university (2nd at $6,440 a year ). So yes, natural resources are a large factor, but it actually is based on the constitutional right to education for Wyomingites.

That’s really interesting. I can’t think of anything with a higher ROI that should be in the base budget. If you start funding something and keep up, it’s a lot easier/cheaper than playing Montana catch-up. Good on Wyoming.

I like it too. I wonder if this is made easier by having only one four-year university in the state. I don't know if this is true or not, but it seems to me Montana could be spending a ton of money subsidizing (even at a low level) so many more four-year institutions in a state of a relatively similar population.

I didn’t look but Wyoming’s population used to be about one-third of Montana’s. I’m sure it’s grown, but maybe still only half as big? Getting hungry.

UPDATE: 580,000 Wyoming current population. In 1960 Wyoming had 330,000 people.

This is telling:

http://www.uwyo.edu/admissions/freshman ... links.html

Especially when you compare it to this:

https://applymontana.mus.edu/colleges/c ... leges.html

What the hell does the MUS have to be thinking when they put a junior college in both Bozeangeles and Sanfranzoola!!!! Then, there are six! SIX! four year degree granting members of the MUS!

How many credits transfer and count toward a degree from one institution to the other in Montana? BOR requires one third of your coursework be taken at that member institution toward a degree in grad schools. Damn good racket.

Both MSU and UM run the trade schools in those towns. You can get Welding and Auto mechanic there as an example.

All college general education credits (maybe more) transfer in the Montana University System. That was changed way back when Schweizer was Governor.
https://mus.edu/transfer/transfer.html

What's wrong with a kid or adult in Missoula or Bozeman going to a JC in their hometowns? Both cities are major population centers in the state.

I get it. Y'all like the bloated, oversized MUS versus an efficient, streamlined system that replicates many of the same majors. That's your prerogative. Rather amusing though that MSU's student body is only 44 percent Montana residents.

The 4-year colleges in this state, for the most part, were created way over a century ago. MSU and UM are right around 130 years old. You couldn’t just jump on I-90 those days and go between them in three hours. Probably more like three days, except for the train. The colleges were placed geographically around the Great (Big) State of Montana to give the young adults some chance at affordable higher education. Distances here are much greater than in Wyoming, or back east where there is a college like every 15 miles.

[allcat]

Wyoming, Nevada, Utah State. Wyoming is a body of one and they have a lot of oil and gas money. Utah and Nevada both have more than triple the population of Montana. Higher paying jobs and better tax structures. Utah really supports education, and the Montana Legislature would rather not be bothered by it.

Wyoming actually has education outlined in their State Constitution (I was told they are the only state that has that in their constitution, but that could be wrong). That is why their teachers are among the highest paid (10th) and have one of lowest college tuition for a state university (2nd at $6,440 a year ). So yes, natural resources are a large factor, but it actually is based on the constitutional right to education for Wyomingites.

That’s really interesting. I can’t think of anything with a higher ROI that should be in the base budget. If you start funding something and keep up, it’s a lot easier/cheaper than playing Montana catch-up. Good on Wyoming.

I like it too. I wonder if this is made easier by having only one four-year university in the state. I don't know if this is true or not, but it seems to me Montana could be spending a ton of money subsidizing (even at a low level) so many more four-year institutions in a state of a relatively similar population.

I didn’t look but Wyoming’s population used to be about one-third of Montana’s. I’m sure it’s grown, but maybe still only half as big? Getting hungry.

UPDATE: 580,000 Wyoming current population. In 1960 Wyoming had 330,000 people.

This is telling:

http://www.uwyo.edu/admissions/freshman ... links.html

Especially when you compare it to this:

https://applymontana.mus.edu/colleges/c ... leges.html

What the hell does the MUS have to be thinking when they put a junior college in both Bozeangeles and Sanfranzoola!!!! Then, there are six! SIX! four year degree granting members of the MUS!

How many credits transfer and count toward a degree from one institution to the other in Montana? BOR requires one third of your coursework be taken at that member institution toward a degree in grad schools. Damn good racket.

Both MSU and UM run the trade schools in those towns. You can get Welding and Auto mechanic there as an example.

All college general education credits (maybe more) transfer in the Montana University System. That was changed way back when Schweizer was Governor.
https://mus.edu/transfer/transfer.html

What's wrong with a kid or adult in Missoula or Bozeman going to a JC in their hometowns? Both cities are major population centers in the state.

I get it. Y'all like the bloated, oversized MUS versus an efficient, streamlined system that replicates many of the same majors. That's your prerogative. Rather amusing though that MSU's student body is only 44 percent Montana residents.

You think Auto mechanic classes are bloat? I would look more at Dillon and Butte. The bloat for me are the non professorial type of staff.

[Cat Grad]

This thread is discussing "Moving Up." Montana has two small college football programs in a one (and done) basketball conference and four even smaller MUS schools.. Skip over the state to it's immediate west and Washington has five four-year degree granting institutions of which four participate in football. Even the vampires in that state with just a few more people than Montana's huge population cut back a few years ago. Let's hope Eastern gets it's football legs back soon...

But there's absolutely no need to streamline. None. And one wonders why athletic departments can't pay diddly squat. Plus, the MUS is not bloated for a state with just barely a million inhabitants. George Will mocked Stanford's protestors...

[CodyCat]

Regarding "new" Montanans donating. The $101 Million donated to the nursing school from Mark and Robyn Jones.

"ALTHOUGH WE don't live in Montana full time, it was very much a part of our backstory. Growing up, we spent a lot of time here as kids," he said during Monday's news conference.

"We became convinced that our investment in expanding the capacity and capabilities of MSU's nursing school could have a real impact on the people that live in the state that we consider home, and we feel privileged to be able to make this investment," she said. "We are very passionate about education — it changed our lives. We are very passionate about investing our dollars where they can have the biggest impact on improving the quality of life for our neighbors, and we are honored to do so."

Asked why they didn't donate to their own alma maters, Mark Jones responded half-jokingly: "I get hit up by Harvard all the time. Believe me, they don't need the money."

I would guess donating to the academic side is a much easier sell than the athletics side. That's true for alums as well as transplants. Even Gianforte keeps giving a ton of money to Engineering but I've never heard of him or Daines contribute to athletics.

Because of the passion of both Cats fans and gris people, I've always speculated that giving to either schools athletics would lose them votes.

[utucats]

We can’t even win a National Championship at this level. Why would people want to watch us play for a the chance at a bowl game? This would be a huge mistake. The fan base would drop to below 10,000 fans per game. It would destroy our program. Just look at Idaho. There is a reason they came back to the Big Sky.

Totally disagree. Bobcat Stadium is packed on Saturdays because it's the place to be. It's a premier and one of a kind event that people don't want to miss. It's the same thing in Missoula. Like an old athletic director used to always say: "It's not about winning. It's about the hope of winning. If you win consistently for awhile, then people will have the hope of winning forever."

Montana State would have to be absolutely terrible for 10+ years in a row AND have a style that was unappealing to watch AND have a terrible coach for people to completely stop coming to games. And that wouldn't happen. If MSU was FBS, they could out-recruit at least half the league simply based on Bozeman being a way more desirable destination than Laramie or Reno or San Jose or wherever.

Sorry Colter but I could not disagree with you more. Back when Kramer was coaching and Lulay came in we started to see the winning increasing and since then the game day experience has steadily grown. During that time and especially the years leading up to it, there were only a few thousand people attending non Cat griz games. One season we bought end zone season tickets because Cat griz was in Missoula so every game all one needed to do was get in and seating was pretty much whatever you wanted. We were drinking then so your statement that the booze is bringing Montanans is not correct.

Winning is important. Competing at a high level is important. I like Montana the way it has been. We are a rural state and our colleges are smaller schools. I hope we stay FCS forever. I have no desire to try and pretend to be a bigger deal than we are.

You are right that we have an amazing game day experience. If it ain’t broke don’t try to fix it.

This is what I’ve been trying to say on my show tho…it IS broken. Montana State generates the second most football revenue of any program in the Big Sky and one of the top 5 in the country. Yet when the final numbers come down for athletic department budget, the Cats make next to nothing.

Meanwhile, UC Davis has about 8,000 total people who care about football yet are about to build a new stadium. NAU just built a $44 million facility almost exclusively with state and student money, no real fundraising. All the fans in the Big Sky outside of Montana would have a hard time filling the two Montana stadiums. Yet the playing field is equal because the business model is broken.

The Cats and the Griz have the least amount of money to reinvest because each gets less than 50 percent of its athletic budget subsidized. This issue is compounded by the fact that at least half the league receives 70 percent subsidization and a few schools get more than 80 percent.

That’s not an equal playing field. That’s legislating to the lowest common denominator.

You want to know why most of you think Big Sky officiating sucks? Because it does. You want to know why you think the league’s administration is bush league?? Because it is.

You are who you hang out with. Northern Colorado’s
Locker room is like a mile from its D2 stadium. More people go to Bozeman Gallatin football games than NAU games. Portland State plays at a high school field, and it’s not even the nicest high school field in the area. Given the state of affairs in college sports, Idaho State might never field a winner ever again. Weber State just had its greatest coach in school history, tripled its number of all time playoff appearances and went on its first few playoff runs….how much did attendance increase? Not one bit. Still drawing a crowd that would turn out in Butte to watch the Bulldogs against Bozeman…

When you talk about the olden days, I get where you’re coming from. But that ain’t it anymore. Montana State is big league athletics and the football experience is one of the best in the West. From the rodeo team entrance to the spirit of the West to the engagement of the fans to the tailgates to the radio broadcasts to the media coverage to the scenery, I can’t really think of a scenario short of a full on catastrophic event that would deter people from coming to Bobcat Stadium in droves. You’d get at the very least three home teams better than you could ever get now from in the conference. And then you can get real home and homes, not just McNeese State or Bryant.

Let’s say MSU had a league to land in and BOR approval. And Cruzado is still president, Leon still AD and Vigen still head coach. And they get 22 more scholarships. That team is really competitive in the Mountain West right away. You’d add a $4-8 million revenue stream from TV. Waded would fully jolt
Fundraising and raise eight figures. You’d get more state money.

This is all a business. Doesn’t matter if you don’t like the thought it’s all about money. It’s all about money! Danny Sprinkle and the Big Sky All stars are all in Logan because of money. RaeQuan Battle is at West Virginia because of money.

And think of the publicity if MSU made a move. Nevada Reno and Wyoming coming on Bobcat Stadium for the first time in years….or better yet the second or third time after already being there….those coaches gushing in fear over Bobcat Stadium…I’ve been to most the stadiums in the Mountain West. The Montana schools are more raucous and wild for sure.

The Cats and the Griz just can’t get caught with their pants down playing in a division where the rivalry game is the conference AND national championship game. To me,
That makes it a fully diluted product. And this is coming from someone who has dedicated more than half my life to covering the Big Sky Conference…

I don’t agree that this is all a business. It is more than that and there are other considerations other than just solely making money. Even if we look at it from purely a business perspective, it is surprising that your take is that us funding all these programs and paying for this great game day experience with all the trimmings (rodeo team entrance, Spirit of the West) while continually improving facilities (paved parking/tailgating, BAC, new video board, South end zone, new field, rebranding, etc.) and doing that with less subsidies and somehow you find that system broken? Or your point is that since the other schools can’t do the same that we have an unfair advantage? Or maybe if we got 70% subsidized that would make it fair for us? Call me crazy but not needing assistance always seemed to me to be a marker of success. You’ll have to clear that up for me because I’m not understanding that point.

I also think you are way overhyping the impact of Wyoming showing up at Bobcat Stadium. The publicity? Is ESPN gonna come running and wanting it on prime time? No. In the whole college football market we have a very small footprint and that doesn’t change at all with a move up.

I look at schools like Wyoming with pity for having nothing real to play for. They are never going to win a championship. You talk about an unfair system, does us moving to a system where we have to accept never finishing #1 a fair system? I don’t think so.

We have a great rivalry, great venues, amazing fan support and we are the Big Sky conference. FCS football is truly becoming more and more about Montana State and the Dakotas. I love that fact. We built all of this in a broken model/system.

I appreciate your opinion but I think it is naive. This is an argument about priorities. Your take is simply that money matters more than winning. I disagree.

Just curious what your professional occupation is? For you to call Colter “naive”, must mean that you have spent your lifetime in college athletics - specifically covering the Big Sky. Seriously, if anything, Colter is one of the most experienced people on this topic.

And as for the subsidies, Colter’s point was simple. The Montana schools have been successful without the additional component of subsidies. The other Big Sky schools are way behind, despite getting the additional benefit of student/school funding. The Montana schools are in a different class than the rest of the Big Sky and the only thing holding us back from a larger profile is the rest of the Big Sky.

My sole reason for not moving up was the lack of a national championship to G5 teams. If the P5 continues to change, there will eventually be 50 teams in a super conference and the rest of FBS will be the new G5 - or a new version of FCS. I don’t want to be left behind.

Thanks to Colter for the write up. Your write up is compelling. For the first time in my life, I am ready to move up.

Nearly everyone on here is qualified to have an opinion on the subject. We all have been following the Big Sky conference for many years. I didn’t mean to use the word naive as an insult. I just meant that I thought Colter’s take was only looking at it from one side.

[utucats]

We can’t even win a National Championship at this level. Why would people want to watch us play for a the chance at a bowl game? This would be a huge mistake. The fan base would drop to below 10,000 fans per game. It would destroy our program. Just look at Idaho. There is a reason they came back to the Big Sky.

Totally disagree. Bobcat Stadium is packed on Saturdays because it's the place to be. It's a premier and one of a kind event that people don't want to miss. It's the same thing in Missoula. Like an old athletic director used to always say: "It's not about winning. It's about the hope of winning. If you win consistently for awhile, then people will have the hope of winning forever."

Montana State would have to be absolutely terrible for 10+ years in a row AND have a style that was unappealing to watch AND have a terrible coach for people to completely stop coming to games. And that wouldn't happen. If MSU was FBS, they could out-recruit at least half the league simply based on Bozeman being a way more desirable destination than Laramie or Reno or San Jose or wherever.

Sorry Colter but I could not disagree with you more. Back when Kramer was coaching and Lulay came in we started to see the winning increasing and since then the game day experience has steadily grown. During that time and especially the years leading up to it, there were only a few thousand people attending non Cat griz games. One season we bought end zone season tickets because Cat griz was in Missoula so every game all one needed to do was get in and seating was pretty much whatever you wanted. We were drinking then so your statement that the booze is bringing Montanans is not correct.

Winning is important. Competing at a high level is important. I like Montana the way it has been. We are a rural state and our colleges are smaller schools. I hope we stay FCS forever. I have no desire to try and pretend to be a bigger deal than we are.

You are right that we have an amazing game day experience. If it ain’t broke don’t try to fix it.

This is what I’ve been trying to say on my show tho…it IS broken. Montana State generates the second most football revenue of any program in the Big Sky and one of the top 5 in the country. Yet when the final numbers come down for athletic department budget, the Cats make next to nothing.

Meanwhile, UC Davis has about 8,000 total people who care about football yet are about to build a new stadium. NAU just built a $44 million facility almost exclusively with state and student money, no real fundraising. All the fans in the Big Sky outside of Montana would have a hard time filling the two Montana stadiums. Yet the playing field is equal because the business model is broken.

The Cats and the Griz have the least amount of money to reinvest because each gets less than 50 percent of its athletic budget subsidized. This issue is compounded by the fact that at least half the league receives 70 percent subsidization and a few schools get more than 80 percent.

That’s not an equal playing field. That’s legislating to the lowest common denominator.

You want to know why most of you think Big Sky officiating sucks? Because it does. You want to know why you think the league’s administration is bush league?? Because it is.

You are who you hang out with. Northern Colorado’s
Locker room is like a mile from its D2 stadium. More people go to Bozeman Gallatin football games than NAU games. Portland State plays at a high school field, and it’s not even the nicest high school field in the area. Given the state of affairs in college sports, Idaho State might never field a winner ever again. Weber State just had its greatest coach in school history, tripled its number of all time playoff appearances and went on its first few playoff runs….how much did attendance increase? Not one bit. Still drawing a crowd that would turn out in Butte to watch the Bulldogs against Bozeman…

When you talk about the olden days, I get where you’re coming from. But that ain’t it anymore. Montana State is big league athletics and the football experience is one of the best in the West. From the rodeo team entrance to the spirit of the West to the engagement of the fans to the tailgates to the radio broadcasts to the media coverage to the scenery, I can’t really think of a scenario short of a full on catastrophic event that would deter people from coming to Bobcat Stadium in droves. You’d get at the very least three home teams better than you could ever get now from in the conference. And then you can get real home and homes, not just McNeese State or Bryant.

Let’s say MSU had a league to land in and BOR approval. And Cruzado is still president, Leon still AD and Vigen still head coach. And they get 22 more scholarships. That team is really competitive in the Mountain West right away. You’d add a $4-8 million revenue stream from TV. Waded would fully jolt
Fundraising and raise eight figures. You’d get more state money.

This is all a business. Doesn’t matter if you don’t like the thought it’s all about money. It’s all about money! Danny Sprinkle and the Big Sky All stars are all in Logan because of money. RaeQuan Battle is at West Virginia because of money.

And think of the publicity if MSU made a move. Nevada Reno and Wyoming coming on Bobcat Stadium for the first time in years….or better yet the second or third time after already being there….those coaches gushing in fear over Bobcat Stadium…I’ve been to most the stadiums in the Mountain West. The Montana schools are more raucous and wild for sure.

The Cats and the Griz just can’t get caught with their pants down playing in a division where the rivalry game is the conference AND national championship game. To me,
That makes it a fully diluted product. And this is coming from someone who has dedicated more than half my life to covering the Big Sky Conference…

I don’t agree that this is all a business. It is more than that and there are other considerations other than just solely making money. Even if we look at it from purely a business perspective, it is surprising that your take is that us funding all these programs and paying for this great game day experience with all the trimmings (rodeo team entrance, Spirit of the West) while continually improving facilities (paved parking/tailgating, BAC, new video board, South end zone, new field, rebranding, etc.) and doing that with less subsidies and somehow you find that system broken? Or your point is that since the other schools can’t do the same that we have an unfair advantage? Or maybe if we got 70% subsidized that would make it fair for us? Call me crazy but not needing assistance always seemed to me to be a marker of success. You’ll have to clear that up for me because I’m not understanding that point.

I also think you are way overhyping the impact of Wyoming showing up at Bobcat Stadium. The publicity? Is ESPN gonna come running and wanting it on prime time? No. In the whole college football market we have a very small footprint and that doesn’t change at all with a move up.

I look at schools like Wyoming with pity for having nothing real to play for. They are never going to win a championship. You talk about an unfair system, does us moving to a system where we have to accept never finishing #1 a fair system? I don’t think so.

We have a great rivalry, great venues, amazing fan support and we are the Big Sky conference. FCS football is truly becoming more and more about Montana State and the Dakotas. I love that fact. We built all of this in a broken model/system.

I appreciate your opinion but I think it is naive. This is an argument about priorities. Your take is simply that money matters more than winning. I disagree.

Wrong. They seek after a Mountain West Championship and I honestly might value that down the road as well, more than an FCS title with the current trend in this division. You take out us and the DSU's are you really proud of that? That you knocked off Incarnate Word, Bill and Mary, northsouthwest state u on the way to a title? NDSU and SDSU aren't long for the FCS and once they are gone are we really happy being the highschooler beating up on the third graders during recess? We shouldn't be the last one to leave the party.

Those FCS titles come so easy that we haven’t won one in nearly 40 years.

[utucats]

I also think you are way overhyping the impact of Wyoming showing up at Bobcat Stadium. The publicity? Is ESPN gonna come running and wanting it on prime time? No. In the whole college football market we have a very small footprint and that doesn’t change at all with a move up.

For what it is worth, in 2021 the MSU v WY football game drew 30,007 fans and the next best home game that season drew 23,467. That season only when they played at Boise were there more fans in attendance with 35,474. In 2022 Wyoming didn't even come close to 30,000 fans for a home game. I remember the MSU v WY basketball series that would be played in Billings. Those games were awesome. So maybe ESPN doesn't get all jacked up for MSU v WY, but fans sure do for both sides. MSU fans aren't crazy about playing Portland State, just like Wyoming fans aren't terrible excited about games against Hawaii.

Colter’s point was the publicity. He said “think of all the publicity”. Regionally a few thousand extra fans but it isn’t a big deal to anyone in the grand scheme of things.

Also, Portland State is an easy example because things have gone poorly for them but what about Weber or Sac State. There are also examples of programs on the rise within the conference.

Right now, Montana State gets pretty much zero coverage from outlets outside of Montana. You never read a headline "Weber State quarterback wary of coming to Bobcat Stadium" or "Portland State head coach knows dealing with rabid MSU fans will be a challenge on Saturday".

That completely changes if you are in the Mountain West. Right now, when the Cats play Sac State, Brent Vigen is not going on radio shows in California to promote and spread his brand or preview the game. He's not going on any radio shows anywhere except mine. You join the Mountain West and he's doing media outside of Montana every single week.

If you believe this is about more than money, and you believe that sports is the front porch to your university and it's a massing marketing arm to get exposure in hopes of getting more students - that's awesome and I hope that still is true. But Montana State is not spreading its brand hardly at all in Portland or Sacramento by playing those schools in any sport. But you play Boise State every year? Now you awaken Boise as a real place you can recruit non-athlete students. And that works across the board in every Mountain West town.

Half the Big Sky and most of the FCS is completely irrelevant even to people who LOVE FCS football like us. Imagine what people who aren't constantly exposed to it think? Oh that's right, they don't think about it at all.

I’m a simple man Colter. Your Cats coverage is enough for me.

[catgrad05]

I also think you are way overhyping the impact of Wyoming showing up at Bobcat Stadium. The publicity? Is ESPN gonna come running and wanting it on prime time? No. In the whole college football market we have a very small footprint and that doesn’t change at all with a move up.

For what it is worth, in 2021 the MSU v WY football game drew 30,007 fans and the next best home game that season drew 23,467. That season only when they played at Boise were there more fans in attendance with 35,474. In 2022 Wyoming didn't even come close to 30,000 fans for a home game. I remember the MSU v WY basketball series that would be played in Billings. Those games were awesome. So maybe ESPN doesn't get all jacked up for MSU v WY, but fans sure do for both sides. MSU fans aren't crazy about playing Portland State, just like Wyoming fans aren't terrible excited about games against Hawaii.

Colter’s point was the publicity. He said “think of all the publicity”. Regionally a few thousand extra fans but it isn’t a big deal to anyone in the grand scheme of things.

Also, Portland State is an easy example because things have gone poorly for them but what about Weber or Sac State. There are also examples of programs on the rise within the conference.

Right now, Montana State gets pretty much zero coverage from outlets outside of Montana. You never read a headline "Weber State quarterback wary of coming to Bobcat Stadium" or "Portland State head coach knows dealing with rabid MSU fans will be a challenge on Saturday".

That completely changes if you are in the Mountain West. Right now, when the Cats play Sac State, Brent Vigen is not going on radio shows in California to promote and spread his brand or preview the game. He's not going on any radio shows anywhere except mine. You join the Mountain West and he's doing media outside of Montana every single week.

If you believe this is about more than money, and you believe that sports is the front porch to your university and it's a massing marketing arm to get exposure in hopes of getting more students - that's awesome and I hope that still is true. But Montana State is not spreading its brand hardly at all in Portland or Sacramento by playing those schools in any sport. But you play Boise State every year? Now you awaken Boise as a real place you can recruit non-athlete students. And that works across the board in every Mountain West town.

Half the Big Sky and most of the FCS is completely irrelevant even to people who LOVE FCS football like us. Imagine what people who aren't constantly exposed to it think? Oh that's right, they don't think about it at all.

I’m a simple man Colter. Your Cats coverage is enough for me.

Here’s one thing that some may be overlooking. Of course Colter wants the Montana schools to move up, as he pointed out it’s a business. In his line of work he would increase his viewship a lot. He has a lot to gain in a scenario like that

[Colter_Nuanez]

I want the Cats and the Griz to move to a different league so that when Duncan Hamilton runs a race at the conference championships, you can watch it instead of the constant excuse of technical difficulties. I’d like to do courtside TV analysis for a league that knows how to launch an ESPN+ stream consistently correctly…

Not only is not having the simplest things like getting a championship track meet on tv bush league, it’s also so frustrating because guess who cares? Only people from Montana. So the league gets away with it. Only two upset fan bases because the other fan bases hardly exist.

The Cats are currently in a league in football where losing to any team other than Idaho and Montana, maybe Sac State, would be considered a giant catastrophe. The bottom half of the football league is going to have a helluva time ever being good again. And once Power 5s stop playing them, then what?

I wish the Cats and the Griz could stay in the Big Sky and the Big Sky would just get better. What indication is there that would ever happen?

[Cat Grad]

I want the Cats and the Griz to move to a different league so that when Duncan Hamilton runs a race at the conference championships, you can watch it instead of the constant excuse of technical difficulties. I’d like to do courtside TV analysis for a league that knows how to launch an ESPN+ stream consistently correctly…

Not only is not having the simplest things like getting a championship track meet on tv bush league, it’s also so frustrating because guess who cares? Only people from Montana. So the league gets away with it. Only two upset fan bases because the other fan bases hardly exist.

The Cats are currently in a league in football where losing to any team other than Idaho and Montana, maybe Sac State, would be considered a giant catastrophe. The bottom half of the football league is going to have a helluva time ever being good again. And once Power 5s stop playing them, then what?

I wish the Cats and the Griz could stay in the Big Sky and the Big Sky would just get better. What indication is there that would ever happen?

Here's a decent analogy. MSU recovered quite nicely from the athletic department being run by Fullerton and Fields. Why can't the conference recover from being run by Fullerton and his successor?

I state that simply because the MWC coverage leaves a lot to be desired. In fact, I believe the WCC does a better job. Hell yes, I'd like to see better coverage for the non-revenue sports and rodeo, but Casper is only a month away and I'll be there anyway. Let's face it, the Blue Moon in Columbia Falls does a better job with rodeo coverage than any of the other venues in Montana now although it may slide a bit with Mr. Sapa's passing.

In another thread someone mentioned kids graduating with a couple years eligibility left. Whether they benefited from dual-enrollment I really don't know, but...

I believe you're dragging Montana into the new century kicking and screaming. It seems bizarre to me that our neighboring states can have 13 and 14 year old kids graduating from high school after they complete their associates degrees and a state with 425 independent school districts only offer dual-enrollment to a small percentage of those districts.

[BleedingBLue]

We can’t even win a National Championship at this level. Why would people want to watch us play for a the chance at a bowl game? This would be a huge mistake. The fan base would drop to below 10,000 fans per game. It would destroy our program. Just look at Idaho. There is a reason they came back to the Big Sky.

Totally disagree. Bobcat Stadium is packed on Saturdays because it's the place to be. It's a premier and one of a kind event that people don't want to miss. It's the same thing in Missoula. Like an old athletic director used to always say: "It's not about winning. It's about the hope of winning. If you win consistently for awhile, then people will have the hope of winning forever."

Montana State would have to be absolutely terrible for 10+ years in a row AND have a style that was unappealing to watch AND have a terrible coach for people to completely stop coming to games. And that wouldn't happen. If MSU was FBS, they could out-recruit at least half the league simply based on Bozeman being a way more desirable destination than Laramie or Reno or San Jose or wherever.

Sorry Colter but I could not disagree with you more. Back when Kramer was coaching and Lulay came in we started to see the winning increasing and since then the game day experience has steadily grown. During that time and especially the years leading up to it, there were only a few thousand people attending non Cat griz games. One season we bought end zone season tickets because Cat griz was in Missoula so every game all one needed to do was get in and seating was pretty much whatever you wanted. We were drinking then so your statement that the booze is bringing Montanans is not correct.

Winning is important. Competing at a high level is important. I like Montana the way it has been. We are a rural state and our colleges are smaller schools. I hope we stay FCS forever. I have no desire to try and pretend to be a bigger deal than we are.

You are right that we have an amazing game day experience. If it ain’t broke don’t try to fix it.

This is what I’ve been trying to say on my show tho…it IS broken. Montana State generates the second most football revenue of any program in the Big Sky and one of the top 5 in the country. Yet when the final numbers come down for athletic department budget, the Cats make next to nothing.

Meanwhile, UC Davis has about 8,000 total people who care about football yet are about to build a new stadium. NAU just built a $44 million facility almost exclusively with state and student money, no real fundraising. All the fans in the Big Sky outside of Montana would have a hard time filling the two Montana stadiums. Yet the playing field is equal because the business model is broken.

The Cats and the Griz have the least amount of money to reinvest because each gets less than 50 percent of its athletic budget subsidized. This issue is compounded by the fact that at least half the league receives 70 percent subsidization and a few schools get more than 80 percent.

That’s not an equal playing field. That’s legislating to the lowest common denominator.

You want to know why most of you think Big Sky officiating sucks? Because it does. You want to know why you think the league’s administration is bush league?? Because it is.

You are who you hang out with. Northern Colorado’s
Locker room is like a mile from its D2 stadium. More people go to Bozeman Gallatin football games than NAU games. Portland State plays at a high school field, and it’s not even the nicest high school field in the area. Given the state of affairs in college sports, Idaho State might never field a winner ever again. Weber State just had its greatest coach in school history, tripled its number of all time playoff appearances and went on its first few playoff runs….how much did attendance increase? Not one bit. Still drawing a crowd that would turn out in Butte to watch the Bulldogs against Bozeman…

When you talk about the olden days, I get where you’re coming from. But that ain’t it anymore. Montana State is big league athletics and the football experience is one of the best in the West. From the rodeo team entrance to the spirit of the West to the engagement of the fans to the tailgates to the radio broadcasts to the media coverage to the scenery, I can’t really think of a scenario short of a full on catastrophic event that would deter people from coming to Bobcat Stadium in droves. You’d get at the very least three home teams better than you could ever get now from in the conference. And then you can get real home and homes, not just McNeese State or Bryant.

Let’s say MSU had a league to land in and BOR approval. And Cruzado is still president, Leon still AD and Vigen still head coach. And they get 22 more scholarships. That team is really competitive in the Mountain West right away. You’d add a $4-8 million revenue stream from TV. Waded would fully jolt
Fundraising and raise eight figures. You’d get more state money.

This is all a business. Doesn’t matter if you don’t like the thought it’s all about money. It’s all about money! Danny Sprinkle and the Big Sky All stars are all in Logan because of money. RaeQuan Battle is at West Virginia because of money.

And think of the publicity if MSU made a move. Nevada Reno and Wyoming coming on Bobcat Stadium for the first time in years….or better yet the second or third time after already being there….those coaches gushing in fear over Bobcat Stadium…I’ve been to most the stadiums in the Mountain West. The Montana schools are more raucous and wild for sure.

The Cats and the Griz just can’t get caught with their pants down playing in a division where the rivalry game is the conference AND national championship game. To me,
That makes it a fully diluted product. And this is coming from someone who has dedicated more than half my life to covering the Big Sky Conference…

I don’t agree that this is all a business. It is more than that and there are other considerations other than just solely making money. Even if we look at it from purely a business perspective, it is surprising that your take is that us funding all these programs and paying for this great game day experience with all the trimmings (rodeo team entrance, Spirit of the West) while continually improving facilities (paved parking/tailgating, BAC, new video board, South end zone, new field, rebranding, etc.) and doing that with less subsidies and somehow you find that system broken? Or your point is that since the other schools can’t do the same that we have an unfair advantage? Or maybe if we got 70% subsidized that would make it fair for us? Call me crazy but not needing assistance always seemed to me to be a marker of success. You’ll have to clear that up for me because I’m not understanding that point.

I also think you are way overhyping the impact of Wyoming showing up at Bobcat Stadium. The publicity? Is ESPN gonna come running and wanting it on prime time? No. In the whole college football market we have a very small footprint and that doesn’t change at all with a move up.

I look at schools like Wyoming with pity for having nothing real to play for. They are never going to win a championship. You talk about an unfair system, does us moving to a system where we have to accept never finishing #1 a fair system? I don’t think so.

We have a great rivalry, great venues, amazing fan support and we are the Big Sky conference. FCS football is truly becoming more and more about Montana State and the Dakotas. I love that fact. We built all of this in a broken model/system.

I appreciate your opinion but I think it is naive. This is an argument about priorities. Your take is simply that money matters more than winning. I disagree.

Wrong. They seek after a Mountain West Championship and I honestly might value that down the road as well, more than an FCS title with the current trend in this division. You take out us and the DSU's are you really proud of that? That you knocked off Incarnate Word, Bill and Mary, northsouthwest state u on the way to a title? NDSU and SDSU aren't long for the FCS and once they are gone are we really happy being the highschooler beating up on the third graders during recess? We shouldn't be the last one to leave the party.

Those FCS titles come so easy that we haven’t won one in nearly 40 years.

Exactly. Even if NDSU, JMU and Sam Houston weren't in the FCS the last 15 years, the Cats still wouldn't have won a title. There are always going to be teams that step up and become the top tier when teams leave the FCS. 13 years ago you could have said "would you be proud of beating SDSU and NDSU on the way to the title? They just moved up from D2."

I also don't believe NDSU and SDSU will be leaving the FCS any sooner than the Monatana schools. They have the same problem, who wants them, there's nothing attractive about their markets. If NDSU was foing to move up it would have happened already. They also have more competition for fans than the Montana schools do.

[onceacat]

Wyoming, Nevada, Utah State. Wyoming is a body of one and they have a lot of oil and gas money. Utah and Nevada both have more than triple the population of Montana. Higher paying jobs and better tax structures. Utah really supports education, and the Montana Legislature would rather not be bothered by it.

Nevada has 2 MWC teams. Utah has an elite FCS team, an independent, a MWC (all FBS), and 3 FCS teams.

Wyoming has half the population of MT. And it ran an FBS for decades when O&G money was near non-existent.

Although I agree about the tax structure & lack of support for higher ed from Helena.

Point being, I guess: The financial hurdle is political in nature. Its not about football or fan/donor support, or University commitment.

[onceacat]

I want the Cats and the Griz to move to a different league so that when Duncan Hamilton runs a race at the conference championships, you can watch it instead of the constant excuse of technical difficulties. I’d like to do courtside TV analysis for a league that knows how to launch an ESPN+ stream consistently correctly…

Not only is not having the simplest things like getting a championship track meet on tv bush league, it’s also so frustrating because guess who cares? Only people from Montana. So the league gets away with it. Only two upset fan bases because the other fan bases hardly exist.

The Cats are currently in a league in football where losing to any team other than Idaho and Montana, maybe Sac State, would be considered a giant catastrophe. The bottom half of the football league is going to have a helluva time ever being good again. And once Power 5s stop playing them, then what?

I wish the Cats and the Griz could stay in the Big Sky and the Big Sky would just get better. What indication is there that would ever happen?

Like NAU winning national championships in XC-beating out all the Power 5 schools-and it doesnt warrant a mention.

The BSC is a shell of its former self.

[Go Scats Go]

I still think the Power 5 are going to make a 64 team division and leave all the lesser BCS teams in the wind
(New Div 1)

That's when UM and msu will fit perfect with what is left
Keep a playoff system and I'm all for it.
Having the likes of Utah State, Air Force, Boise, Wyoming, Nevada, UNLV, New Mexico etc as Division foes is a HUGE upgrade
(New Div 2)

And letting PSU, Northern Colorado, ISU, other lower FCS teams etc compete with the upper end of what is now Div 2 & 3 makes a lot more sense.
(New Div 3)

[Hawks86]

The detailed recommendations for the sport's future governance are the result of months of discussions, which began bubbling this past spring when some of the most prominent voices in college athletics, including Ohio State athletic director Gene Smith, advocated for college football to separate from the NCAA entirely.

Any momentum for that shifted in September, when an overwhelming majority of Division I athletic directors at the annual LEAD1 meetings expressed a strong preference to keep FBS football under the NCAA if can be more streamlined and less bureaucratic.

Following the strong consensus in its fall meeting, LEAD1, which represents the 131 athletic directors in the FBS, established a working group comprised of representatives from all 10 FBS conferences.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/s ... e-football