Moving up

[kennethnoisewater]

I put together some data for the Big Sky that I found at https://knightnewhousedata.org/fcs/, no idea how accurate it really is.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

There is a tab for straight $ and then % of revenue.

This is great, thanks! Only thing I would really question here is the "Corporate Sponsorship, Advertising, Licensing" number for MSU. That seems incredibly, unbelievably low.

Some of the data definitely seems suspect for sure (UC Davis $22k ticket sales??) but it was the only place I could find that had all schools and had revenue broken out into categories like that. I think it's close enough to paint some pictures anyway.

I'm sure some of that is just an accounting thing. Obviously students aren't paying to go to games. I can't imagine they're letting CA residents in free due to the amount the state subsidizes, but there could be something like that. Maybe donor contributions are classified in a way that gets people free tickets, although from a tax standpoint I wouldn't want much free for my donations. I wonder if that's reflecting 2020/21 and nobody could go to games in California...? I mean last year they averaged 9,400 fans for football alone. Unless everybody got in free that doesn't make much sense.

[kennethnoisewater]

I put together some data for the Big Sky that I found at https://knightnewhousedata.org/fcs/, no idea how accurate it really is.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

There is a tab for straight $ and then % of revenue.

This is great, thanks! Only thing I would really question here is the "Corporate Sponsorship, Advertising, Licensing" number for MSU. That seems incredibly, unbelievably low.

Some of the data definitely seems suspect for sure (UC Davis $22k ticket sales??) but it was the only place I could find that had all schools and had revenue broken out into categories like that. I think it's close enough to paint some pictures anyway.

I'm sure some of that is just an accounting thing. Obviously students aren't paying to go to games. I can't imagine they're letting CA residents in free due to the amount the state subsidizes, but there could be something like that. Maybe donor contributions are classified in a way that gets people free tickets, although from a tax standpoint I wouldn't want much free for my donations. I wonder if that's reflecting 2020/21 and nobody could go to games in California...? I mean last year they averaged 9,400 fans for football alone. Unless everybody got in free that doesn't make much sense.

Just did a quick check on the same site for 2020, and ticket revenue was $643,000, so I'm guessing it was the Covid factor.

[Prodigal Cat]

Another pro to me for moving to a decent to good FBS conference is fan engagement. How often do we as Bobcat fans get to interact with any other fans in the conference besides the Griz, and a handful of EWU and Weber fans? Thanks goodness Idaho is back as they have a decent fanbase, but half the fanbases in the Big Sky are non-existent in the digital world and that's because they just don't really have many fans. This also includes visitors to Bozeman - Wyoming, Boise State would for sure bring more fans to Bozeman than anyone ever has in my lifetime not from Missoula. This is why I think we could expand the stadium pretty quickly after a move to the FBS, we'd have more visiting fans because there would be teams in the conference who ... actually have fans.

We had more interaction with Utah St fans than we had with pretty much every FCS fanbase over a coaching hire vs any of the playoff games we've played the last few years.

[Colter_Nuanez]

I also think you are way overhyping the impact of Wyoming showing up at Bobcat Stadium. The publicity? Is ESPN gonna come running and wanting it on prime time? No. In the whole college football market we have a very small footprint and that doesn’t change at all with a move up.

For what it is worth, in 2021 the MSU v WY football game drew 30,007 fans and the next best home game that season drew 23,467. That season only when they played at Boise were there more fans in attendance with 35,474. In 2022 Wyoming didn't even come close to 30,000 fans for a home game. I remember the MSU v WY basketball series that would be played in Billings. Those games were awesome. So maybe ESPN doesn't get all jacked up for MSU v WY, but fans sure do for both sides. MSU fans aren't crazy about playing Portland State, just like Wyoming fans aren't terrible excited about games against Hawaii.

Colter’s point was the publicity. He said “think of all the publicity”. Regionally a few thousand extra fans but it isn’t a big deal to anyone in the grand scheme of things.

Also, Portland State is an easy example because things have gone poorly for them but what about Weber or Sac State. There are also examples of programs on the rise within the conference.

Right now, Montana State gets pretty much zero coverage from outlets outside of Montana. You never read a headline "Weber State quarterback wary of coming to Bobcat Stadium" or "Portland State head coach knows dealing with rabid MSU fans will be a challenge on Saturday".

That completely changes if you are in the Mountain West. Right now, when the Cats play Sac State, Brent Vigen is not going on radio shows in California to promote and spread his brand or preview the game. He's not going on any radio shows anywhere except mine. You join the Mountain West and he's doing media outside of Montana every single week.

If you believe this is about more than money, and you believe that sports is the front porch to your university and it's a massing marketing arm to get exposure in hopes of getting more students - that's awesome and I hope that still is true. But Montana State is not spreading its brand hardly at all in Portland or Sacramento by playing those schools in any sport. But you play Boise State every year? Now you awaken Boise as a real place you can recruit non-athlete students. And that works across the board in every Mountain West town.

Half the Big Sky and most of the FCS is completely irrelevant even to people who LOVE FCS football like us. Imagine what people who aren't constantly exposed to it think? Oh that's right, they don't think about it at all.

[Colter_Nuanez]

I put together some data for the Big Sky that I found at https://knightnewhousedata.org/fcs/, no idea how accurate it really is.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

There is a tab for straight $ and then % of revenue.

This is great, thanks! Only thing I would really question here is the "Corporate Sponsorship, Advertising, Licensing" number for MSU. That seems incredibly, unbelievably low.

What’s really interesting to me is EWU manages to put a dang good product (not including last season) on the field with a minimal amount of cash.

Eastern Washington has two distinct advantages over everyone in the Big Sky and pretty much everyone in Division I.

First, in the state of Washington, each state-funded school (Washington, Washington State, Eastern Washington, Central Washington) receives state subsidies for boosting minority student population via athletics or otherwise. This goes hand in hand with the fact that any minority that is accepted into a state school in Washington automatically qualifies for a Pell grant. EWU has done a tremendous job of recruiting minority athletes from the Seattle and Tacoma area who come from financially limited backgrounds. They get those athletes to walk-on under the premise they will get at least part of their education paid for via Pell grants and state subsidizes.

Second, in 1983, presidents across the NCAA approved the Prop 48 initiative:

"Proposition 48 stipulates that freshman scholarship athletes in Division I can play and practice with their teams only if they earned at least a 2.0 grade point average in 11 high school core curriculum courses and scored at least 700 on the SAT or 18 on the American College Testing (ACT) Program's exam. Athletes who meet neither requirement may not receive a scholarship. Those Division I athletes who satisfy one of the requirements but not the other may be awarded a scholarship but must use their freshman year to gain eligibility by achieving a 2.0 GPA in 24 credit hours. Thereafter they retain only three years of varsity eligibility."

To my knowledge, Eastern Washington is the only school in the Big Sky Conference that still operates with Prop 48. This is how they got partial qualifiers like Rodney Stuckey and Taiwan Jones.

[Cataholic]

I put together some data for the Big Sky that I found at https://knightnewhousedata.org/fcs/, no idea how accurate it really is.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

There is a tab for straight $ and then % of revenue.

This is great, thanks! Only thing I would really question here is the "Corporate Sponsorship, Advertising, Licensing" number for MSU. That seems incredibly, unbelievably low.

Some of the data definitely seems suspect for sure (UC Davis $22k ticket sales??) but it was the only place I could find that had all schools and had revenue broken out into categories like that. I think it's close enough to paint some pictures anyway.

I'm sure some of that is just an accounting thing. Obviously students aren't paying to go to games. I can't imagine they're letting CA residents in free due to the amount the state subsidizes, but there could be something like that. Maybe donor contributions are classified in a way that gets people free tickets, although from a tax standpoint I wouldn't want much free for my donations. I wonder if that's reflecting 2020/21 and nobody could go to games in California...? I mean last year they averaged 9,400 fans for football alone. Unless everybody got in free that doesn't make much sense.

Accounting for these programs can be misleading. Schools treat items differently and the makeup of sports and athletes at a school can affect the numbers. For example, if you have a larger percentage of “out of state” student athletes, those kids pay a higher out of state tuition fee which is charged to the athletics program. That results in a higher expense on the income statement than a school with more “in state” tuition expenses. Then let’s assume that the school chooses to “forgive” a part of the tuition - for this example we will say $20,000. Does that $20,000 amount to “institutional support” on the income statement? And complicating it even further, the actual cost of that student taking a class is minimal. The variable cost of adding one student to a class of 20+ kids is minimal. So the school looks like it is contributing $20,000 in “institutional support”, but the actual cost to the school is really just a small fraction of that number.

Another complicating factor could be the difference in each school’s tuition. MSU in-state tuition is $7,500. UC Davis in-state is $15,000 and out of state tuition is $44,000.

It would very interesting to see an actual cash flow analysis for athletics and how they interact with the school and organizations like the Bobcat Club. I am pretty sure that there is a significant net positive to the school. Tech just added golf and track. Those are not spectator sports that generate revenue. Why? Because the majority of those new athletes pay tuition to the school.

[BleedingBLue]

Long time lurker. This topic finally convinced me to make an account.

For context I grew up in NW Montana in a family of casual Griz fans, but I was always more of a Cat fan and that was solidified when I pursued my degree in engineering from MSU (graduated 2017).

Due to current life circumstances I can’t quite swing season tickets, but I have attended about 3 regular season and all post season football games since graduating.

I am finding it really hard to spend the money to take my family to this year’s slate of home games. Gold Rush has its own energy and NAU and EWU might be ok. The game day experience is good, but it’s going to be hard to keep the crowd engaged and coming back if it’s just 6 blowouts. I know that I would be looking forward to this season a lot more if I saw Wyoming, Boise State, USU, etc on the schedule.

People on this board dog on the NDSU fans for not selling out their barn during the season, however that is exactly where we are headed if we stay at in this conference and at this level.

Would you feel the same if the blowouts were going to be the other way around? If we were expected to get shallacked in 3 of 6 home games you would be more willing to get season tickets than if we were expected to do the shallacking?

The main thing to note is that Boise, Fresno, USU fans etc would view us as the PSU, UNC, ISU of the MWC. There is no reason they want MSU in the conference.

[BleedingBLue]

For those saying people who don't want season tickets if we move up are fair weather fans, why? Even the most devoted fans get tired of mediocre or worse teams eventually.

As a fan I want a team that is playing for something every year. If we move up that won't be the case. Playing for a decent bowl game isn't playing for something. Even when the Cats were not good in the 90s there was always hope to start the year. 2000s, hope to start the year. There has been hope for 30 years and that fuels fandom. If MSU is an FBS team what hope is there for the end of the season? Unless you love a bowl game, there isn't any.

[Cataholic]

I also think you are way overhyping the impact of Wyoming showing up at Bobcat Stadium. The publicity? Is ESPN gonna come running and wanting it on prime time? No. In the whole college football market we have a very small footprint and that doesn’t change at all with a move up.

For what it is worth, in 2021 the MSU v WY football game drew 30,007 fans and the next best home game that season drew 23,467. That season only when they played at Boise were there more fans in attendance with 35,474. In 2022 Wyoming didn't even come close to 30,000 fans for a home game. I remember the MSU v WY basketball series that would be played in Billings. Those games were awesome. So maybe ESPN doesn't get all jacked up for MSU v WY, but fans sure do for both sides. MSU fans aren't crazy about playing Portland State, just like Wyoming fans aren't terrible excited about games against Hawaii.

Colter’s point was the publicity. He said “think of all the publicity”. Regionally a few thousand extra fans but it isn’t a big deal to anyone in the grand scheme of things.

Also, Portland State is an easy example because things have gone poorly for them but what about Weber or Sac State. There are also examples of programs on the rise within the conference.

Right now, Montana State gets pretty much zero coverage from outlets outside of Montana. You never read a headline "Weber State quarterback wary of coming to Bobcat Stadium" or "Portland State head coach knows dealing with rabid MSU fans will be a challenge on Saturday".

That completely changes if you are in the Mountain West. Right now, when the Cats play Sac State, Brent Vigen is not going on radio shows in California to promote and spread his brand or preview the game. He's not going on any radio shows anywhere except mine. You join the Mountain West and he's doing media outside of Montana every single week.

If you believe this is about more than money, and you believe that sports is the front porch to your university and it's a massing marketing arm to get exposure in hopes of getting more students - that's awesome and I hope that still is true. But Montana State is not spreading its brand hardly at all in Portland or Sacramento by playing those schools in any sport. But you play Boise State every year? Now you awaken Boise as a real place you can recruit non-athlete students. And that works across the board in every Mountain West town.

Half the Big Sky and most of the FCS is completely irrelevant even to people who LOVE FCS football like us. Imagine what people who aren't constantly exposed to it think? Oh that's right, they don't think about it at all.

Another great point. And let’s assume that being in the Mountain West adds a conservative number of 500 new students. At $15,000 tuition per year (which is a bargain for residents from states like Colorado), that generates a new $7.5 million in revenue to the university.

[Colter_Nuanez]

For those saying people who don't want season tickets if we move up are fair weather fans, why? Even the most devoted fans get tired of mediocre or worse teams eventually.

As a fan I want a team that is playing for something every year. If we move up that won't be the case. Playing for a decent bowl game isn't playing for something. Even when the Cats were not good in the 90s there was always hope to start the year. 2000s, hope to start the year. There has been hope for 30 years and that fuels fandom. If MSU is an FBS team what hope is there for the end of the season? Unless you love a bowl game, there isn't any.

I'm the biggest hater on bowls you will find. I can say with full confidence I have never watched a bowl game played before New Years Day in my entire life. I used to refuse to talk about bowl season on the radio other than to just hate on it when I had a daily co-host. Now we don't talk about it at all.

But college football has been defined as a money-making machine. The only way to maintain a business is to add new revenue streams. There's only one way to do that: move up.

Let me ask you this: if the future in 15 years is Montana State still playing in the FCS and absolutely dominating the subdivision, going undefeated every single year, winning the Big Sky and making runs at national championships....and the competition is Utah Tech and Azusa Pacific and Western Illinois....and Eastern Washington and Portland State are playing D-II and every other reputable FCS program has moved on....is that better than moving up to the FBS and trying to win 10 games and go to the Holiday Bowl or whatever?

One thing Danny Sprinkle taught me during our four years working together: in the current state of affairs in Division I college sports, you can bitch and moan and complain and resist the trends and changes of the day. Or you can accept them, find your advantages and roll. You think Sprinkle wanted to be he most transfer-heavy program in the league? Nope, but they hung two banners. And he was such a figure head, players like RaeQuan Battle and Jubrile Belo quickly lost the fan perception as transfers and were thought of as simply Bobcats.

You move up to the Mountain West or have the ability to pay coaches more competitively, you don't lose Sprinkle.

The future in my opinion is that the Power 5 will break off completely and have a completely separate governing body. IF and when that happens in basketball, Division I sports will be at a crossroads. The NCAA DOES NOT run the College Football Playoff, therefore does not benefit financially from college football. If that same thing happened to men's Division I basketball, all NCAA Tournament revenue would cease.

Then what will happen to all the Title XI sports that exist to off-set football scholarships? No NCAA Tournament would basically mean the elimination or the complete reconfiguration of every non-revenue college sport in the country.

Once the entire thing fractures — and it's coming, make no mistake; UCLA, USC, Washington and Oregon will not be left out to dry to get the billions in TV money that's going to come the way of the SEC and the Big Ten. Then once they bounce from the Pac 12, what happens? Utah, Arizona, Arizona State and Colorado will find a way to align and get into the Big XII. Then what's next for Oregon State and Washington State? Everything will fracture, the Power 5 will realign into a Power 3 or a Power 4, each will get network TV deals and everyone else will be left to pick up the pieces and figure it all out.

So when that theoretical Power 4 exists and they stop playing FCS and Group of 5 teams for money games, how is that revenue replaced? Half the Big Sky couldn't have football if they didn't get their asses kicked twice a year by FBS schools.

The best case scenario once the fracture happens is that all the teams out West that don't get into the Network TV conglomeration team up with each other, get their own TV deal and form a new level of Division I football that maybe even includes a playoff.

I just don't see it going any other way. You have to evolve or die. That's just the way it is when you determine that the No. 1 determining factor in your capitalist society is the almighty dollar.

I know a lot of you think this is depressing. I'm totally with you. I have very little joy covering college sports anymore. It's a complete disaster to me. I only propose all these ideas and scenarios because the only way Montana State and Montana avoid falling further into irrelevancy is to get out of a two-bit league that legislates to the lowest common denominator.

You can hate that all you want. I don't like it. But it is the reality of the situation.

[kennethnoisewater]

For those saying people who don't want season tickets if we move up are fair weather fans, why? Even the most devoted fans get tired of mediocre or worse teams eventually.

As a fan I want a team that is playing for something every year. If we move up that won't be the case. Playing for a decent bowl game isn't playing for something. Even when the Cats were not good in the 90s there was always hope to start the year. 2000s, hope to start the year. There has been hope for 30 years and that fuels fandom. If MSU is an FBS team what hope is there for the end of the season? Unless you love a bowl game, there isn't any.

I'm the biggest hater on bowls you will find. I can say with full confidence I have never watched a bowl game played before New Years Day in my entire life. I used to refuse to talk about bowl season on the radio other than to just hate on it when I had a daily co-host. Now we don't talk about it at all.

But college football has been defined as a money-making machine. The only way to maintain a business is to add new revenue streams. There's only one way to do that: move up.

Let me ask you this: if the future in 15 years is Montana State still playing in the FCS and absolutely dominating the subdivision, going undefeated every single year, winning the Big Sky and making runs at national championships....and the competition is Utah Tech and Azusa Pacific and Western Illinois....and Eastern Washington and Portland State are playing D-II and every other reputable FCS program has moved on....is that better than moving up to the FBS and trying to win 10 games and go to the Holiday Bowl or whatever?

One thing Danny Sprinkle taught me during our four years working together: in the current state of affairs in Division I college sports, you can bitch and moan and complain and resist the trends and changes of the day. Or you can accept them, find your advantages and roll. You think Sprinkle wanted to be he most transfer-heavy program in the league? Nope, but they hung two banners. And he was such a figure head, players like RaeQuan Battle and Jubrile Belo quickly lost the fan perception as transfers and were thought of as simply Bobcats.

You move up to the Mountain West or have the ability to pay coaches more competitively, you don't lose Sprinkle.

The future in my opinion is that the Power 5 will break off completely and have a completely separate governing body. IF and when that happens in basketball, Division I sports will be at a crossroads. The NCAA DOES NOT run the College Football Playoff, therefore does not benefit financially from college football. If that same thing happened to men's Division I basketball, all NCAA Tournament revenue would cease.

Then what will happen to all the Title XI sports that exist to off-set football scholarships? No NCAA Tournament would basically mean the elimination or the complete reconfiguration of every non-revenue college sport in the country.

Once the entire thing fractures — and it's coming, make no mistake; UCLA, USC, Washington and Oregon will not be left out to dry to get the billions in TV money that's going to come the way of the SEC and the Big Ten. Then once they bounce from the Pac 12, what happens? Utah, Arizona, Arizona State and Colorado will find a way to align and get into the Big XII. Then what's next for Oregon State and Washington State? Everything will fracture, the Power 5 will realign into a Power 3 or a Power 4, each will get network TV deals and everyone else will be left to pick up the pieces and figure it all out.

So when that theoretical Power 4 exists and they stop playing FCS and Group of 5 teams for money games, how is that revenue replaced? Half the Big Sky couldn't have football if they didn't get their asses kicked twice a year by FBS schools.

The best case scenario once the fracture happens is that all the teams out West that don't get into the Network TV conglomeration team up with each other, get their own TV deal and form a new level of Division I football that maybe even includes a playoff.

I just don't see it going any other way. You have to evolve or die. That's just the way it is when you determine that the No. 1 determining factor in your capitalist society is the almighty dollar.

I know a lot of you think this is depressing. I'm totally with you. I have very little joy covering college sports anymore. It's a complete disaster to me. I only propose all these ideas and scenarios because the only way Montana State and Montana avoid falling further into irrelevancy is to get out of a two-bit league that legislates to the lowest common denominator.

You can hate that all you want. I don't like it. But it is the reality of the situation.

This is a good write up. The world is changing and you can't just sit by and expect your world to stay the same if you stay put. I'd love for MSU football to be exactly like it is forever, but that's not going to happen. If the New York Times decided to only focus on their print edition because some of their subscribers only care about reading a physical paper over a cup of coffee, they'd either be out of business or they'd be charging $100 an issue...in which case they'd be out of business.

I can only hope there's a second tier of college football that MSU could fit nicely into, and that that division is recognized as the highest level of true amateur athletics. Montana is a small state with a big footprint. We have challenges that other programs can't relate to, and I think that makes it harder to move up than a Missouri State. But it's not impossible.

[BleedingBLue]

For those saying people who don't want season tickets if we move up are fair weather fans, why? Even the most devoted fans get tired of mediocre or worse teams eventually.

As a fan I want a team that is playing for something every year. If we move up that won't be the case. Playing for a decent bowl game isn't playing for something. Even when the Cats were not good in the 90s there was always hope to start the year. 2000s, hope to start the year. There has been hope for 30 years and that fuels fandom. If MSU is an FBS team what hope is there for the end of the season? Unless you love a bowl game, there isn't any.

I'm the biggest hater on bowls you will find. I can say with full confidence I have never watched a bowl game played before New Years Day in my entire life. I used to refuse to talk about bowl season on the radio other than to just hate on it when I had a daily co-host. Now we don't talk about it at all.

But college football has been defined as a money-making machine. The only way to maintain a business is to add new revenue streams. There's only one way to do that: move up.

Let me ask you this: if the future in 15 years is Montana State still playing in the FCS and absolutely dominating the subdivision, going undefeated every single year, winning the Big Sky and making runs at national championships....and the competition is Utah Tech and Azusa Pacific and Western Illinois....and Eastern Washington and Portland State are playing D-II and every other reputable FCS program has moved on....is that better than moving up to the FBS and trying to win 10 games and go to the Holiday Bowl or whatever?

One thing Danny Sprinkle taught me during our four years working together: in the current state of affairs in Division I college sports, you can bitch and moan and complain and resist the trends and changes of the day. Or you can accept them, find your advantages and roll. You think Sprinkle wanted to be he most transfer-heavy program in the league? Nope, but they hung two banners. And he was such a figure head, players like RaeQuan Battle and Jubrile Belo quickly lost the fan perception as transfers and were thought of as simply Bobcats.

You move up to the Mountain West or have the ability to pay coaches more competitively, you don't lose Sprinkle.

The future in my opinion is that the Power 5 will break off completely and have a completely separate governing body. IF and when that happens in basketball, Division I sports will be at a crossroads. The NCAA DOES NOT run the College Football Playoff, therefore does not benefit financially from college football. If that same thing happened to men's Division I basketball, all NCAA Tournament revenue would cease.

Then what will happen to all the Title XI sports that exist to off-set football scholarships? No NCAA Tournament would basically mean the elimination or the complete reconfiguration of every non-revenue college sport in the country.

Once the entire thing fractures — and it's coming, make no mistake; UCLA, USC, Washington and Oregon will not be left out to dry to get the billions in TV money that's going to come the way of the SEC and the Big Ten. Then once they bounce from the Pac 12, what happens? Utah, Arizona, Arizona State and Colorado will find a way to align and get into the Big XII. Then what's next for Oregon State and Washington State? Everything will fracture, the Power 5 will realign into a Power 3 or a Power 4, each will get network TV deals and everyone else will be left to pick up the pieces and figure it all out.

So when that theoretical Power 4 exists and they stop playing FCS and Group of 5 teams for money games, how is that revenue replaced? Half the Big Sky couldn't have football if they didn't get their asses kicked twice a year by FBS schools.

The best case scenario once the fracture happens is that all the teams out West that don't get into the Network TV conglomeration team up with each other, get their own TV deal and form a new level of Division I football that maybe even includes a playoff.

I just don't see it going any other way. You have to evolve or die. That's just the way it is when you determine that the No. 1 determining factor in your capitalist society is the almighty dollar.

I know a lot of you think this is depressing. I'm totally with you. I have very little joy covering college sports anymore. It's a complete disaster to me. I only propose all these ideas and scenarios because the only way Montana State and Montana avoid falling further into irrelevancy is to get out of a two-bit league that legislates to the lowest common denominator.

You can hate that all you want. I don't like it. But it is the reality of the situation.

This is a good write up. The world is changing and you can't just sit by and expect your world to stay the same if you stay put. I'd love for MSU football to be exactly like it is forever, but that's not going to happen. If the New York Times decided to only focus on their print edition because some of their subscribers only care about reading a physical paper over a cup of coffee, they'd either be out of business or they'd be charging $100 an issue...in which case they'd be out of business.

I can only hope there's a second tier of college football that MSU could fit nicely into, and that that division is recognized as the highest level of true amateur athletics. Montana is a small state with a big footprint. We have challenges that other programs can't relate to, and I think that makes it harder to move up than a Missouri State. But it's not impossible.

I'd still choose dominating FCS. As a fan I don't care about the money and all that. I get it from the school's point of view, but selfishly I don't want meaningless football. As you said a 2nd tier would be great. The G5 teams and the left behind P5 teams in a playoff just as it is now. I'd be all for moving up then, but not as things currently stand.

[CalgaryCat]

Long time lurker. This topic finally convinced me to make an account.

For context I grew up in NW Montana in a family of casual Griz fans, but I was always more of a Cat fan and that was solidified when I pursued my degree in engineering from MSU (graduated 2017).

Due to current life circumstances I can’t quite swing season tickets, but I have attended about 3 regular season and all post season football games since graduating.

I am finding it really hard to spend the money to take my family to this year’s slate of home games. Gold Rush has its own energy and NAU and EWU might be ok. The game day experience is good, but it’s going to be hard to keep the crowd engaged and coming back if it’s just 6 blowouts. I know that I would be looking forward to this season a lot more if I saw Wyoming, Boise State, USU, etc on the schedule.

People on this board dog on the NDSU fans for not selling out their barn during the season, however that is exactly where we are headed if we stay at in this conference and at this level.

Would you feel the same if the blowouts were going to be the other way around? If we were expected to get shallacked in 3 of 6 home games you would be more willing to get season tickets than if we were expected to do the shallacking?

The main thing to note is that Boise, Fresno, USU fans etc would view us as the PSU, UNC, ISU of the MWC. There is no reason they want MSU in the conference.

You’re under the assumption that the talent level of the team wouldn’t rise with a move to MWC. Additionally, fans from visiting teams would travel to catch a game. It’s Bozeman for crying out loud. Unlike half the teams in the BSC who barely have a fan base at all.

[BleedingBLue]

Long time lurker. This topic finally convinced me to make an account.

For context I grew up in NW Montana in a family of casual Griz fans, but I was always more of a Cat fan and that was solidified when I pursued my degree in engineering from MSU (graduated 2017).

Due to current life circumstances I can’t quite swing season tickets, but I have attended about 3 regular season and all post season football games since graduating.

I am finding it really hard to spend the money to take my family to this year’s slate of home games. Gold Rush has its own energy and NAU and EWU might be ok. The game day experience is good, but it’s going to be hard to keep the crowd engaged and coming back if it’s just 6 blowouts. I know that I would be looking forward to this season a lot more if I saw Wyoming, Boise State, USU, etc on the schedule.

People on this board dog on the NDSU fans for not selling out their barn during the season, however that is exactly where we are headed if we stay at in this conference and at this level.

Would you feel the same if the blowouts were going to be the other way around? If we were expected to get shallacked in 3 of 6 home games you would be more willing to get season tickets than if we were expected to do the shallacking?

The main thing to note is that Boise, Fresno, USU fans etc would view us as the PSU, UNC, ISU of the MWC. There is no reason they want MSU in the conference.

You’re under the assumption that the talent level of the team wouldn’t rise with a move to MWC. Additionally, fans from visiting teams would travel to catch a game. It’s Bozeman for crying out loud. Unlike half the teams in the BSC who barely have a fan base at all.

You're right, I am under that assumption. FCS to FBS transitions have been successful on just a few occasions. As Nevada Reno, Georgia Southern, Marshall and so on and so forth. And it would be angood thing that visiting teams fill our stadium?

[coloradocat]

I'm at the point where I'm on board with moving up, just not convinced money will start falling from the sky just because we become an FBS team. Saying it doesn't make it so.

[MSU01]

I'm at the point where I'm on board with moving up, just not convinced money will start falling from the sky just because we become an FBS team. Saying it doesn't make it so.

To a certain extent, it would. For example, under their current TV deal with CBS and Fox each school in the Mountain West receives $4 million per year. Are Big Sky schools getting anything from the ESPN+ deal they're currently under?

[coloradocat]

I'm at the point where I'm on board with moving up, just not convinced money will start falling from the sky just because we become an FBS team. Saying it doesn't make it so.

To a certain extent, it would. For example, under their current TV deal with CBS and Fox each school in the Mountain West receives $4 million per year. Are Big Sky schools getting anything from the ESPN+ deal they're currently under?

I'm talking about all the other money that is supposed to pour in. A MWC TV deal will help but it isn't going to close the budget gap. We'd need more donations/state funding. The argument is that these will magically materialize once we start hosting Utah State instead of Utah Tech.

[damnyoutuesday]

Long time lurker. This topic finally convinced me to make an account.

For context I grew up in NW Montana in a family of casual Griz fans, but I was always more of a Cat fan and that was solidified when I pursued my degree in engineering from MSU (graduated 2017).

Due to current life circumstances I can’t quite swing season tickets, but I have attended about 3 regular season and all post season football games since graduating.

I am finding it really hard to spend the money to take my family to this year’s slate of home games. Gold Rush has its own energy and NAU and EWU might be ok. The game day experience is good, but it’s going to be hard to keep the crowd engaged and coming back if it’s just 6 blowouts. I know that I would be looking forward to this season a lot more if I saw Wyoming, Boise State, USU, etc on the schedule.

People on this board dog on the NDSU fans for not selling out their barn during the season, however that is exactly where we are headed if we stay at in this conference and at this level.

Would you feel the same if the blowouts were going to be the other way around? If we were expected to get shallacked in 3 of 6 home games you would be more willing to get season tickets than if we were expected to do the shallacking?

The main thing to note is that Boise, Fresno, USU fans etc would view us as the PSU, UNC, ISU of the MWC. There is no reason they want MSU in the conference.

You’re under the assumption that the talent level of the team wouldn’t rise with a move to MWC. Additionally, fans from visiting teams would travel to catch a game. It’s Bozeman for crying out loud. Unlike half the teams in the BSC who barely have a fan base at all.

That's my biggest thing in all of this. I get absolutely nothing out of playing most of the Big Sky Conference anymore. Oh cool man, we get to play at the glorified high school fields of Portland State and Northern Colorado where maybe 1500 people will show up. Our peers as institutions are the Wyomings, Utah States, and Colorado States of the world, not Northern Colorado, Portland State, Idaho State, and Eastern Washington. We are closer as a school to what the meat of the MWC is, not what the meat of the BSC is. Not having playoff games would suck, and bowls suck, but man during the regular season I just can't care about playing the majority of the Big Sky Conference anymore.

[CalgaryCat]

Long time lurker. This topic finally convinced me to make an account.

For context I grew up in NW Montana in a family of casual Griz fans, but I was always more of a Cat fan and that was solidified when I pursued my degree in engineering from MSU (graduated 2017).

Due to current life circumstances I can’t quite swing season tickets, but I have attended about 3 regular season and all post season football games since graduating.

I am finding it really hard to spend the money to take my family to this year’s slate of home games. Gold Rush has its own energy and NAU and EWU might be ok. The game day experience is good, but it’s going to be hard to keep the crowd engaged and coming back if it’s just 6 blowouts. I know that I would be looking forward to this season a lot more if I saw Wyoming, Boise State, USU, etc on the schedule.

People on this board dog on the NDSU fans for not selling out their barn during the season, however that is exactly where we are headed if we stay at in this conference and at this level.

Would you feel the same if the blowouts were going to be the other way around? If we were expected to get shallacked in 3 of 6 home games you would be more willing to get season tickets than if we were expected to do the shallacking?

The main thing to note is that Boise, Fresno, USU fans etc would view us as the PSU, UNC, ISU of the MWC. There is no reason they want MSU in the conference.

You’re under the assumption that the talent level of the team wouldn’t rise with a move to MWC. Additionally, fans from visiting teams would travel to catch a game. It’s Bozeman for crying out loud. Unlike half the teams in the BSC who barely have a fan base at all.

You're right, I am under that assumption. FCS to FBS transitions have been successful on just a few occasions. As Nevada Reno, Georgia Southern, Marshall and so on and so forth. And it would be angood thing that visiting teams fill our stadium?

In your perceived future, the FCS and FBS are identical to what they are right now, and that simply won’t be the case. I truly believe it’s going to look like what Colter envisions. And if the Cats stick around, they might be winning the “national championship” in a third rate FCS shadow against Western Illinois while the Dakota Schools are playing in a competitive playoff in the new G5 division.

[Cataholic]

Long time lurker. This topic finally convinced me to make an account.

For context I grew up in NW Montana in a family of casual Griz fans, but I was always more of a Cat fan and that was solidified when I pursued my degree in engineering from MSU (graduated 2017).

Due to current life circumstances I can’t quite swing season tickets, but I have attended about 3 regular season and all post season football games since graduating.

I am finding it really hard to spend the money to take my family to this year’s slate of home games. Gold Rush has its own energy and NAU and EWU might be ok. The game day experience is good, but it’s going to be hard to keep the crowd engaged and coming back if it’s just 6 blowouts. I know that I would be looking forward to this season a lot more if I saw Wyoming, Boise State, USU, etc on the schedule.

People on this board dog on the NDSU fans for not selling out their barn during the season, however that is exactly where we are headed if we stay at in this conference and at this level.

Would you feel the same if the blowouts were going to be the other way around? If we were expected to get shallacked in 3 of 6 home games you would be more willing to get season tickets than if we were expected to do the shallacking?

The main thing to note is that Boise, Fresno, USU fans etc would view us as the PSU, UNC, ISU of the MWC. There is no reason they want MSU in the conference.

You’re under the assumption that the talent level of the team wouldn’t rise with a move to MWC. Additionally, fans from visiting teams would travel to catch a game. It’s Bozeman for crying out loud. Unlike half the teams in the BSC who barely have a fan base at all.

You're right, I am under that assumption. FCS to FBS transitions have been successful on just a few occasions. As Nevada Reno, Georgia Southern, Marshall and so on and so forth. And it would be angood thing that visiting teams fill our stadium?

Actually, there has been some recent success stories: Coastal Carolina, Liberty, App State and James Madison to name a few. I think we compare well with those schools.