Moving up

[utucats]

I also think you are way overhyping the impact of Wyoming showing up at Bobcat Stadium. The publicity? Is ESPN gonna come running and wanting it on prime time? No. In the whole college football market we have a very small footprint and that doesn’t change at all with a move up.

For what it is worth, in 2021 the MSU v WY football game drew 30,007 fans and the next best home game that season drew 23,467. That season only when they played at Boise were there more fans in attendance with 35,474. In 2022 Wyoming didn't even come close to 30,000 fans for a home game. I remember the MSU v WY basketball series that would be played in Billings. Those games were awesome. So maybe ESPN doesn't get all jacked up for MSU v WY, but fans sure do for both sides. MSU fans aren't crazy about playing Portland State, just like Wyoming fans aren't terrible excited about games against Hawaii.

Colter’s point was the publicity. He said “think of all the publicity”. Regionally a few thousand extra fans but it isn’t a big deal to anyone in the grand scheme of things.

Also, Portland State is an easy example because things have gone poorly for them but what about Weber or Sac State. There are also examples of programs on the rise within the conference.

[Cataholic]

We can’t even win a National Championship at this level. Why would people want to watch us play for a the chance at a bowl game? This would be a huge mistake. The fan base would drop to below 10,000 fans per game. It would destroy our program. Just look at Idaho. There is a reason they came back to the Big Sky.

Totally disagree. Bobcat Stadium is packed on Saturdays because it's the place to be. It's a premier and one of a kind event that people don't want to miss. It's the same thing in Missoula. Like an old athletic director used to always say: "It's not about winning. It's about the hope of winning. If you win consistently for awhile, then people will have the hope of winning forever."

Montana State would have to be absolutely terrible for 10+ years in a row AND have a style that was unappealing to watch AND have a terrible coach for people to completely stop coming to games. And that wouldn't happen. If MSU was FBS, they could out-recruit at least half the league simply based on Bozeman being a way more desirable destination than Laramie or Reno or San Jose or wherever.

Sorry Colter but I could not disagree with you more. Back when Kramer was coaching and Lulay came in we started to see the winning increasing and since then the game day experience has steadily grown. During that time and especially the years leading up to it, there were only a few thousand people attending non Cat griz games. One season we bought end zone season tickets because Cat griz was in Missoula so every game all one needed to do was get in and seating was pretty much whatever you wanted. We were drinking then so your statement that the booze is bringing Montanans is not correct.

Winning is important. Competing at a high level is important. I like Montana the way it has been. We are a rural state and our colleges are smaller schools. I hope we stay FCS forever. I have no desire to try and pretend to be a bigger deal than we are.

You are right that we have an amazing game day experience. If it ain’t broke don’t try to fix it.

This is what I’ve been trying to say on my show tho…it IS broken. Montana State generates the second most football revenue of any program in the Big Sky and one of the top 5 in the country. Yet when the final numbers come down for athletic department budget, the Cats make next to nothing.

Meanwhile, UC Davis has about 8,000 total people who care about football yet are about to build a new stadium. NAU just built a $44 million facility almost exclusively with state and student money, no real fundraising. All the fans in the Big Sky outside of Montana would have a hard time filling the two Montana stadiums. Yet the playing field is equal because the business model is broken.

The Cats and the Griz have the least amount of money to reinvest because each gets less than 50 percent of its athletic budget subsidized. This issue is compounded by the fact that at least half the league receives 70 percent subsidization and a few schools get more than 80 percent.

That’s not an equal playing field. That’s legislating to the lowest common denominator.

You want to know why most of you think Big Sky officiating sucks? Because it does. You want to know why you think the league’s administration is bush league?? Because it is.

You are who you hang out with. Northern Colorado’s
Locker room is like a mile from its D2 stadium. More people go to Bozeman Gallatin football games than NAU games. Portland State plays at a high school field, and it’s not even the nicest high school field in the area. Given the state of affairs in college sports, Idaho State might never field a winner ever again. Weber State just had its greatest coach in school history, tripled its number of all time playoff appearances and went on its first few playoff runs….how much did attendance increase? Not one bit. Still drawing a crowd that would turn out in Butte to watch the Bulldogs against Bozeman…

When you talk about the olden days, I get where you’re coming from. But that ain’t it anymore. Montana State is big league athletics and the football experience is one of the best in the West. From the rodeo team entrance to the spirit of the West to the engagement of the fans to the tailgates to the radio broadcasts to the media coverage to the scenery, I can’t really think of a scenario short of a full on catastrophic event that would deter people from coming to Bobcat Stadium in droves. You’d get at the very least three home teams better than you could ever get now from in the conference. And then you can get real home and homes, not just McNeese State or Bryant.

Let’s say MSU had a league to land in and BOR approval. And Cruzado is still president, Leon still AD and Vigen still head coach. And they get 22 more scholarships. That team is really competitive in the Mountain West right away. You’d add a $4-8 million revenue stream from TV. Waded would fully jolt
Fundraising and raise eight figures. You’d get more state money.

This is all a business. Doesn’t matter if you don’t like the thought it’s all about money. It’s all about money! Danny Sprinkle and the Big Sky All stars are all in Logan because of money. RaeQuan Battle is at West Virginia because of money.

And think of the publicity if MSU made a move. Nevada Reno and Wyoming coming on Bobcat Stadium for the first time in years….or better yet the second or third time after already being there….those coaches gushing in fear over Bobcat Stadium…I’ve been to most the stadiums in the Mountain West. The Montana schools are more raucous and wild for sure.

The Cats and the Griz just can’t get caught with their pants down playing in a division where the rivalry game is the conference AND national championship game. To me,
That makes it a fully diluted product. And this is coming from someone who has dedicated more than half my life to covering the Big Sky Conference…

I don’t agree that this is all a business. It is more than that and there are other considerations other than just solely making money. Even if we look at it from purely a business perspective, it is surprising that your take is that us funding all these programs and paying for this great game day experience with all the trimmings (rodeo team entrance, Spirit of the West) while continually improving facilities (paved parking/tailgating, BAC, new video board, South end zone, new field, rebranding, etc.) and doing that with less subsidies and somehow you find that system broken? Or your point is that since the other schools can’t do the same that we have an unfair advantage? Or maybe if we got 70% subsidized that would make it fair for us? Call me crazy but not needing assistance always seemed to me to be a marker of success. You’ll have to clear that up for me because I’m not understanding that point.

I also think you are way overhyping the impact of Wyoming showing up at Bobcat Stadium. The publicity? Is ESPN gonna come running and wanting it on prime time? No. In the whole college football market we have a very small footprint and that doesn’t change at all with a move up.

I look at schools like Wyoming with pity for having nothing real to play for. They are never going to win a championship. You talk about an unfair system, does us moving to a system where we have to accept never finishing #1 a fair system? I don’t think so.

We have a great rivalry, great venues, amazing fan support and we are the Big Sky conference. FCS football is truly becoming more and more about Montana State and the Dakotas. I love that fact. We built all of this in a broken model/system.

I appreciate your opinion but I think it is naive. This is an argument about priorities. Your take is simply that money matters more than winning. I disagree.

Just curious what your professional occupation is? For you to call Colter “naive”, must mean that you have spent your lifetime in college athletics - specifically covering the Big Sky. Seriously, if anything, Colter is one of the most experienced people on this topic.

And as for the subsidies, Colter’s point was simple. The Montana schools have been successful without the additional component of subsidies. The other Big Sky schools are way behind, despite getting the additional benefit of student/school funding. The Montana schools are in a different class than the rest of the Big Sky and the only thing holding us back from a larger profile is the rest of the Big Sky.

My sole reason for not moving up was the lack of a national championship to G5 teams. If the P5 continues to change, there will eventually be 50 teams in a super conference and the rest of FBS will be the new G5 - or a new version of FCS. I don’t want to be left behind.

Thanks to Colter for the write up. Your write up is compelling. For the first time in my life, I am ready to move up.

[Prodigal Cat]

We can’t even win a National Championship at this level. Why would people want to watch us play for a the chance at a bowl game? This would be a huge mistake. The fan base would drop to below 10,000 fans per game. It would destroy our program. Just look at Idaho. There is a reason they came back to the Big Sky.

Totally disagree. Bobcat Stadium is packed on Saturdays because it's the place to be. It's a premier and one of a kind event that people don't want to miss. It's the same thing in Missoula. Like an old athletic director used to always say: "It's not about winning. It's about the hope of winning. If you win consistently for awhile, then people will have the hope of winning forever."

Montana State would have to be absolutely terrible for 10+ years in a row AND have a style that was unappealing to watch AND have a terrible coach for people to completely stop coming to games. And that wouldn't happen. If MSU was FBS, they could out-recruit at least half the league simply based on Bozeman being a way more desirable destination than Laramie or Reno or San Jose or wherever.

Sorry Colter but I could not disagree with you more. Back when Kramer was coaching and Lulay came in we started to see the winning increasing and since then the game day experience has steadily grown. During that time and especially the years leading up to it, there were only a few thousand people attending non Cat griz games. One season we bought end zone season tickets because Cat griz was in Missoula so every game all one needed to do was get in and seating was pretty much whatever you wanted. We were drinking then so your statement that the booze is bringing Montanans is not correct.

Winning is important. Competing at a high level is important. I like Montana the way it has been. We are a rural state and our colleges are smaller schools. I hope we stay FCS forever. I have no desire to try and pretend to be a bigger deal than we are.

You are right that we have an amazing game day experience. If it ain’t broke don’t try to fix it.

This is what I’ve been trying to say on my show tho…it IS broken. Montana State generates the second most football revenue of any program in the Big Sky and one of the top 5 in the country. Yet when the final numbers come down for athletic department budget, the Cats make next to nothing.

Meanwhile, UC Davis has about 8,000 total people who care about football yet are about to build a new stadium. NAU just built a $44 million facility almost exclusively with state and student money, no real fundraising. All the fans in the Big Sky outside of Montana would have a hard time filling the two Montana stadiums. Yet the playing field is equal because the business model is broken.

The Cats and the Griz have the least amount of money to reinvest because each gets less than 50 percent of its athletic budget subsidized. This issue is compounded by the fact that at least half the league receives 70 percent subsidization and a few schools get more than 80 percent.

That’s not an equal playing field. That’s legislating to the lowest common denominator.

You want to know why most of you think Big Sky officiating sucks? Because it does. You want to know why you think the league’s administration is bush league?? Because it is.

You are who you hang out with. Northern Colorado’s
Locker room is like a mile from its D2 stadium. More people go to Bozeman Gallatin football games than NAU games. Portland State plays at a high school field, and it’s not even the nicest high school field in the area. Given the state of affairs in college sports, Idaho State might never field a winner ever again. Weber State just had its greatest coach in school history, tripled its number of all time playoff appearances and went on its first few playoff runs….how much did attendance increase? Not one bit. Still drawing a crowd that would turn out in Butte to watch the Bulldogs against Bozeman…

When you talk about the olden days, I get where you’re coming from. But that ain’t it anymore. Montana State is big league athletics and the football experience is one of the best in the West. From the rodeo team entrance to the spirit of the West to the engagement of the fans to the tailgates to the radio broadcasts to the media coverage to the scenery, I can’t really think of a scenario short of a full on catastrophic event that would deter people from coming to Bobcat Stadium in droves. You’d get at the very least three home teams better than you could ever get now from in the conference. And then you can get real home and homes, not just McNeese State or Bryant.

Let’s say MSU had a league to land in and BOR approval. And Cruzado is still president, Leon still AD and Vigen still head coach. And they get 22 more scholarships. That team is really competitive in the Mountain West right away. You’d add a $4-8 million revenue stream from TV. Waded would fully jolt
Fundraising and raise eight figures. You’d get more state money.

This is all a business. Doesn’t matter if you don’t like the thought it’s all about money. It’s all about money! Danny Sprinkle and the Big Sky All stars are all in Logan because of money. RaeQuan Battle is at West Virginia because of money.

And think of the publicity if MSU made a move. Nevada Reno and Wyoming coming on Bobcat Stadium for the first time in years….or better yet the second or third time after already being there….those coaches gushing in fear over Bobcat Stadium…I’ve been to most the stadiums in the Mountain West. The Montana schools are more raucous and wild for sure.

The Cats and the Griz just can’t get caught with their pants down playing in a division where the rivalry game is the conference AND national championship game. To me,
That makes it a fully diluted product. And this is coming from someone who has dedicated more than half my life to covering the Big Sky Conference…

I don’t agree that this is all a business. It is more than that and there are other considerations other than just solely making money. Even if we look at it from purely a business perspective, it is surprising that your take is that us funding all these programs and paying for this great game day experience with all the trimmings (rodeo team entrance, Spirit of the West) while continually improving facilities (paved parking/tailgating, BAC, new video board, South end zone, new field, rebranding, etc.) and doing that with less subsidies and somehow you find that system broken? Or your point is that since the other schools can’t do the same that we have an unfair advantage? Or maybe if we got 70% subsidized that would make it fair for us? Call me crazy but not needing assistance always seemed to me to be a marker of success. You’ll have to clear that up for me because I’m not understanding that point.

I also think you are way overhyping the impact of Wyoming showing up at Bobcat Stadium. The publicity? Is ESPN gonna come running and wanting it on prime time? No. In the whole college football market we have a very small footprint and that doesn’t change at all with a move up.

I look at schools like Wyoming with pity for having nothing real to play for. They are never going to win a championship. You talk about an unfair system, does us moving to a system where we have to accept never finishing #1 a fair system? I don’t think so.

We have a great rivalry, great venues, amazing fan support and we are the Big Sky conference. FCS football is truly becoming more and more about Montana State and the Dakotas. I love that fact. We built all of this in a broken model/system.

I appreciate your opinion but I think it is naive. This is an argument about priorities. Your take is simply that money matters more than winning. I disagree.

Wrong. They seek after a Mountain West Championship and I honestly might value that down the road as well, more than an FCS title with the current trend in this division. You take out us and the DSU's are you really proud of that? That you knocked off Incarnate Word, Bill and Mary, northsouthwest state u on the way to a title? NDSU and SDSU aren't long for the FCS and once they are gone are we really happy being the highschooler beating up on the third graders during recess? We shouldn't be the last one to leave the party.

[luckyirishguy25]

We can’t even win a National Championship at this level. Why would people want to watch us play for a the chance at a bowl game? This would be a huge mistake. The fan base would drop to below 10,000 fans per game. It would destroy our program. Just look at Idaho. There is a reason they came back to the Big Sky.

Totally disagree. Bobcat Stadium is packed on Saturdays because it's the place to be. It's a premier and one of a kind event that people don't want to miss. It's the same thing in Missoula. Like an old athletic director used to always say: "It's not about winning. It's about the hope of winning. If you win consistently for awhile, then people will have the hope of winning forever."

Montana State would have to be absolutely terrible for 10+ years in a row AND have a style that was unappealing to watch AND have a terrible coach for people to completely stop coming to games. And that wouldn't happen. If MSU was FBS, they could out-recruit at least half the league simply based on Bozeman being a way more desirable destination than Laramie or Reno or San Jose or wherever.

Sorry Colter but I could not disagree with you more. Back when Kramer was coaching and Lulay came in we started to see the winning increasing and since then the game day experience has steadily grown. During that time and especially the years leading up to it, there were only a few thousand people attending non Cat griz games. One season we bought end zone season tickets because Cat griz was in Missoula so every game all one needed to do was get in and seating was pretty much whatever you wanted. We were drinking then so your statement that the booze is bringing Montanans is not correct.

Winning is important. Competing at a high level is important. I like Montana the way it has been. We are a rural state and our colleges are smaller schools. I hope we stay FCS forever. I have no desire to try and pretend to be a bigger deal than we are.

You are right that we have an amazing game day experience. If it ain’t broke don’t try to fix it.

This is what I’ve been trying to say on my show tho…it IS broken. Montana State generates the second most football revenue of any program in the Big Sky and one of the top 5 in the country. Yet when the final numbers come down for athletic department budget, the Cats make next to nothing.

Meanwhile, UC Davis has about 8,000 total people who care about football yet are about to build a new stadium. NAU just built a $44 million facility almost exclusively with state and student money, no real fundraising. All the fans in the Big Sky outside of Montana would have a hard time filling the two Montana stadiums. Yet the playing field is equal because the business model is broken.

The Cats and the Griz have the least amount of money to reinvest because each gets less than 50 percent of its athletic budget subsidized. This issue is compounded by the fact that at least half the league receives 70 percent subsidization and a few schools get more than 80 percent.

That’s not an equal playing field. That’s legislating to the lowest common denominator.

You want to know why most of you think Big Sky officiating sucks? Because it does. You want to know why you think the league’s administration is bush league?? Because it is.

You are who you hang out with. Northern Colorado’s
Locker room is like a mile from its D2 stadium. More people go to Bozeman Gallatin football games than NAU games. Portland State plays at a high school field, and it’s not even the nicest high school field in the area. Given the state of affairs in college sports, Idaho State might never field a winner ever again. Weber State just had its greatest coach in school history, tripled its number of all time playoff appearances and went on its first few playoff runs….how much did attendance increase? Not one bit. Still drawing a crowd that would turn out in Butte to watch the Bulldogs against Bozeman…

When you talk about the olden days, I get where you’re coming from. But that ain’t it anymore. Montana State is big league athletics and the football experience is one of the best in the West. From the rodeo team entrance to the spirit of the West to the engagement of the fans to the tailgates to the radio broadcasts to the media coverage to the scenery, I can’t really think of a scenario short of a full on catastrophic event that would deter people from coming to Bobcat Stadium in droves. You’d get at the very least three home teams better than you could ever get now from in the conference. And then you can get real home and homes, not just McNeese State or Bryant.

Let’s say MSU had a league to land in and BOR approval. And Cruzado is still president, Leon still AD and Vigen still head coach. And they get 22 more scholarships. That team is really competitive in the Mountain West right away. You’d add a $4-8 million revenue stream from TV. Waded would fully jolt
Fundraising and raise eight figures. You’d get more state money.

This is all a business. Doesn’t matter if you don’t like the thought it’s all about money. It’s all about money! Danny Sprinkle and the Big Sky All stars are all in Logan because of money. RaeQuan Battle is at West Virginia because of money.

And think of the publicity if MSU made a move. Nevada Reno and Wyoming coming on Bobcat Stadium for the first time in years….or better yet the second or third time after already being there….those coaches gushing in fear over Bobcat Stadium…I’ve been to most the stadiums in the Mountain West. The Montana schools are more raucous and wild for sure.

The Cats and the Griz just can’t get caught with their pants down playing in a division where the rivalry game is the conference AND national championship game. To me,
That makes it a fully diluted product. And this is coming from someone who has dedicated more than half my life to covering the Big Sky Conference…

I think you're 100% right Colter, and in my opinion, moving up is the only way to keep the program moving forward and upward. We need the TV money to keep pace.

[CelticCat]

I also think you are way overhyping the impact of Wyoming showing up at Bobcat Stadium. The publicity? Is ESPN gonna come running and wanting it on prime time? No. In the whole college football market we have a very small footprint and that doesn’t change at all with a move up.

For what it is worth, in 2021 the MSU v WY football game drew 30,007 fans and the next best home game that season drew 23,467. That season only when they played at Boise were there more fans in attendance with 35,474. In 2022 Wyoming didn't even come close to 30,000 fans for a home game. I remember the MSU v WY basketball series that would be played in Billings. Those games were awesome. So maybe ESPN doesn't get all jacked up for MSU v WY, but fans sure do for both sides. MSU fans aren't crazy about playing Portland State, just like Wyoming fans aren't terrible excited about games against Hawaii.

Colter’s point was the publicity. He said “think of all the publicity”. Regionally a few thousand extra fans but it isn’t a big deal to anyone in the grand scheme of things.

Also, Portland State is an easy example because things have gone poorly for them but what about Weber or Sac State. There are also examples of programs on the rise within the conference.

Colter's arguing that Weber State's success isn't putting any more butts in the seat, and that some schools in the conference are so heavily funded by institutional $ that it literally doesn't matter if anyone goes the games or that the program is successful because revenue from sales is like 1% of the budget. So those schools can spend some of that budget on improvements, whereas all the revenue MSU and UM generate from ticket sales goes back into funding the overall athletic program. Most of MSU and UM's improvements are funded through fundraising campaigns. That to me isn't a big reason for wanting to move, but I'm totally on board with the "you are who you hang out with" mantra. The FCS is full of teams that either 1), willingly don't participate in the playoffs, or 2) don't fully fund the max scholarship limit or don't even offer scholarships at all. MSU being in a conference with Northern Colorado is like Ohio State being in a conference with Ball State.

There would be more publicity but it wouldn't be massive until MSU started winning some bowl games. But right now even the worst FBS teams get more coverage on ESPN, 247, Rivals, simply because they are FBS. Ever try looking at recruiting information for MSU versus like a Troy? Night and day. Even looking at stats for FBS teams versus FCS is so drastically different, you can find all sorts of advance and historical stats for any FBS team but it is a chore for FCS.

[CatBot]

We are continuing to be as aggressive as possible to give us as many options as possible in case of a large scale disruption. Personally, I'm surprised the NCAA has held this straw house together as long as they have.

[AFCAT]

MSU would get "more state money" for sports. Hilarious.

[CalgaryCat]

We can’t even win a National Championship at this level. Why would people want to watch us play for a the chance at a bowl game? This would be a huge mistake. The fan base would drop to below 10,000 fans per game. It would destroy our program. Just look at Idaho. There is a reason they came back to the Big Sky.

Totally disagree. Bobcat Stadium is packed on Saturdays because it's the place to be. It's a premier and one of a kind event that people don't want to miss. It's the same thing in Missoula. Like an old athletic director used to always say: "It's not about winning. It's about the hope of winning. If you win consistently for awhile, then people will have the hope of winning forever."

Montana State would have to be absolutely terrible for 10+ years in a row AND have a style that was unappealing to watch AND have a terrible coach for people to completely stop coming to games. And that wouldn't happen. If MSU was FBS, they could out-recruit at least half the league simply based on Bozeman being a way more desirable destination than Laramie or Reno or San Jose or wherever.

Hope of winning what? The Potato Bowl? Nope, as a lifelong Bobcat fan, I hope to win a National title and I don’t see that happening in the FBS. If Bozeman was such a desirable location for players, then the Cats would be destroying the Dakota schools every single year.

The Dakota schools are better in recruiting than Montana State because MSU practices at 6 a.m. in the freezing cold while the Jacks and the Bison practice inside. They also have far superior recruiting budgets and can offer full cost of attendance. Fargo metro is more than twice Bozeman metropolitan population. Both Brookings and Fargo are 3-3.5 hours from Minneapolis. Bozeman is not within six hours of any major city.

Perfect response, Colter. Too many fans don’t realize how utterly left in the dust the Montana schools would be if they don’t take a G5 invite if it were presented. They talk about not being excited about being in a bowl game, but how anybody could be looking forward to this year’s home slate is beyond me. The FCS is dying, and college football as a whole is morphing. I personally see the G5 and P5 splitting, and if the Montana schools don’t jump up when the opportunity arises, we’re going to be stuck in a third rate division. Going 11-1 is pretty dumb is half the teams you’re playing are borderline D2 schools.

[CelticCat]

I put together some data for the Big Sky that I found at https://knightnewhousedata.org/fcs/, no idea how accurate it really is.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

There is a tab for straight $ and then % of revenue.

[CelticCat]

MSU would get "more state money" for sports. Hilarious.

I mean MSU and UM would need a bit more institutional support, and if that will never happen then we are stuck in FCS land, and stuck losing good coaches in all sports. And that's fine, the good thing about all of this is that MSU is in a good spot in a stable conference, even if the FCS is dying, MSU will be fine. Fans will show up to watch MSU beat schools they have 2-3 times the budget of, that no one can find on a map, and MSU will go 9-2 or better every year and make money doing it. MSU's budget is right in line with the other FCS powers and over 50% higher than the FCS median.

We are a growing fish in a shrinking pond.

[kennethnoisewater]

I put together some data for the Big Sky that I found at https://knightnewhousedata.org/fcs/, no idea how accurate it really is.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

There is a tab for straight $ and then % of revenue.

Thanks for putting this together. It's interesting to see the different ways just within one conference that an athletic department can do things. Interesting to note that UC Davis, with about 40,000 students, gets almost all of its athletics budget from institutional support and student fees. Students are paying over $600 a year (each) for sports according to this. They have by far the biggest budget in the conference. Don't know how much that's affected by them not being fully BSC.

[coloradocat]

We can’t even win a National Championship at this level. Why would people want to watch us play for a the chance at a bowl game? This would be a huge mistake. The fan base would drop to below 10,000 fans per game. It would destroy our program. Just look at Idaho. There is a reason they came back to the Big Sky.

Totally disagree. Bobcat Stadium is packed on Saturdays because it's the place to be. It's a premier and one of a kind event that people don't want to miss. It's the same thing in Missoula. Like an old athletic director used to always say: "It's not about winning. It's about the hope of winning. If you win consistently for awhile, then people will have the hope of winning forever."

Montana State would have to be absolutely terrible for 10+ years in a row AND have a style that was unappealing to watch AND have a terrible coach for people to completely stop coming to games. And that wouldn't happen. If MSU was FBS, they could out-recruit at least half the league simply based on Bozeman being a way more desirable destination than Laramie or Reno or San Jose or wherever.

Hope of winning what? The Potato Bowl? Nope, as a lifelong Bobcat fan, I hope to win a National title and I don’t see that happening in the FBS. If Bozeman was such a desirable location for players, then the Cats would be destroying the Dakota schools every single year.

The Dakota schools are better in recruiting than Montana State because MSU practices at 6 a.m. in the freezing cold while the Jacks and the Bison practice inside. They also have far superior recruiting budgets and can offer full cost of attendance. Fargo metro is more than twice Bozeman metropolitan population. Both Brookings and Fargo are 3-3.5 hours from Minneapolis. Bozeman is not within six hours of any major city.

Perfect response, Colter. Too many fans don’t realize how utterly left in the dust the Montana schools would be if they don’t take a G5 invite if it were presented. They talk about not being excited about being in a bowl game, but how anybody could be looking forward to this year’s home slate is beyond me. The FCS is dying, and college football as a whole is morphing. I personally see the G5 and P5 splitting, and if the Montana schools don’t jump up when the opportunity arises, we’re going to be stuck in a third rate division. Going 11-1 is pretty dumb is half the teams you’re playing are borderline D2 schools.

To be fair, the 2023 home schedule is probably the easiest in the last 100 years. It's very much an outlier. I'd much rather watch us lose a close MWC game than be up 30 on some bottom of the barrel FCS team though.

[coloradocat]

We can’t even win a National Championship at this level. Why would people want to watch us play for a the chance at a bowl game? This would be a huge mistake. The fan base would drop to below 10,000 fans per game. It would destroy our program. Just look at Idaho. There is a reason they came back to the Big Sky.

Totally disagree. Bobcat Stadium is packed on Saturdays because it's the place to be. It's a premier and one of a kind event that people don't want to miss. It's the same thing in Missoula. Like an old athletic director used to always say: "It's not about winning. It's about the hope of winning. If you win consistently for awhile, then people will have the hope of winning forever."

Montana State would have to be absolutely terrible for 10+ years in a row AND have a style that was unappealing to watch AND have a terrible coach for people to completely stop coming to games. And that wouldn't happen. If MSU was FBS, they could out-recruit at least half the league simply based on Bozeman being a way more desirable destination than Laramie or Reno or San Jose or wherever.

Sorry Colter but I could not disagree with you more. Back when Kramer was coaching and Lulay came in we started to see the winning increasing and since then the game day experience has steadily grown. During that time and especially the years leading up to it, there were only a few thousand people attending non Cat griz games. One season we bought end zone season tickets because Cat griz was in Missoula so every game all one needed to do was get in and seating was pretty much whatever you wanted. We were drinking then so your statement that the booze is bringing Montanans is not correct.

Winning is important. Competing at a high level is important. I like Montana the way it has been. We are a rural state and our colleges are smaller schools. I hope we stay FCS forever. I have no desire to try and pretend to be a bigger deal than we are.

You are right that we have an amazing game day experience. If it ain’t broke don’t try to fix it.

This is what I’ve been trying to say on my show tho…it IS broken. Montana State generates the second most football revenue of any program in the Big Sky and one of the top 5 in the country. Yet when the final numbers come down for athletic department budget, the Cats make next to nothing.

Meanwhile, UC Davis has about 8,000 total people who care about football yet are about to build a new stadium. NAU just built a $44 million facility almost exclusively with state and student money, no real fundraising. All the fans in the Big Sky outside of Montana would have a hard time filling the two Montana stadiums. Yet the playing field is equal because the business model is broken.

The Cats and the Griz have the least amount of money to reinvest because each gets less than 50 percent of its athletic budget subsidized. This issue is compounded by the fact that at least half the league receives 70 percent subsidization and a few schools get more than 80 percent.

That’s not an equal playing field. That’s legislating to the lowest common denominator.

You want to know why most of you think Big Sky officiating sucks? Because it does. You want to know why you think the league’s administration is bush league?? Because it is.

You are who you hang out with. Northern Colorado’s
Locker room is like a mile from its D2 stadium. More people go to Bozeman Gallatin football games than NAU games. Portland State plays at a high school field, and it’s not even the nicest high school field in the area. Given the state of affairs in college sports, Idaho State might never field a winner ever again. Weber State just had its greatest coach in school history, tripled its number of all time playoff appearances and went on its first few playoff runs….how much did attendance increase? Not one bit. Still drawing a crowd that would turn out in Butte to watch the Bulldogs against Bozeman…

When you talk about the olden days, I get where you’re coming from. But that ain’t it anymore. Montana State is big league athletics and the football experience is one of the best in the West. From the rodeo team entrance to the spirit of the West to the engagement of the fans to the tailgates to the radio broadcasts to the media coverage to the scenery, I can’t really think of a scenario short of a full on catastrophic event that would deter people from coming to Bobcat Stadium in droves. You’d get at the very least three home teams better than you could ever get now from in the conference. And then you can get real home and homes, not just McNeese State or Bryant.

Let’s say MSU had a league to land in and BOR approval. And Cruzado is still president, Leon still AD and Vigen still head coach. And they get 22 more scholarships. That team is really competitive in the Mountain West right away. You’d add a $4-8 million revenue stream from TV. Waded would fully jolt
Fundraising and raise eight figures. You’d get more state money.

This is all a business. Doesn’t matter if you don’t like the thought it’s all about money. It’s all about money! Danny Sprinkle and the Big Sky All stars are all in Logan because of money. RaeQuan Battle is at West Virginia because of money.

And think of the publicity if MSU made a move. Nevada Reno and Wyoming coming on Bobcat Stadium for the first time in years….or better yet the second or third time after already being there….those coaches gushing in fear over Bobcat Stadium…I’ve been to most the stadiums in the Mountain West. The Montana schools are more raucous and wild for sure.

The Cats and the Griz just can’t get caught with their pants down playing in a division where the rivalry game is the conference AND national championship game. To me,
That makes it a fully diluted product. And this is coming from someone who has dedicated more than half my life to covering the Big Sky Conference…

Is there any reason to believe any of the bolded above is true or do you just want it to be true?

The entire discussion is pointless if it's unrealistic that we receive an invite (which it is unless drastic changes take place in the next 5 years). Where is Waded going to get this fundraising from? I'm still waiting to hear who these rich out of state people that have 3rd homes in Gallatin County are that are just dying to give money to a new FBS program they have no connection to. And why would we believe the state would provide more funding? If anything they have more reason to fund the programs now since both teams are relatively close to a championship. If we move up we'd need more money to reach a mid-December bowl game, not a national championship. Plus they'd be able to fall back on the argument that the teams have more tv money so they don't need state funds.

There are plenty of reasons to want us to move up and you've covered them well but your optimism seems to have created a large blind spot. What happens if the best possible scenario doesn't play out?

[AFCAT]

We can’t even win a National Championship at this level. Why would people want to watch us play for a the chance at a bowl game? This would be a huge mistake. The fan base would drop to below 10,000 fans per game. It would destroy our program. Just look at Idaho. There is a reason they came back to the Big Sky.

Totally disagree. Bobcat Stadium is packed on Saturdays because it's the place to be. It's a premier and one of a kind event that people don't want to miss. It's the same thing in Missoula. Like an old athletic director used to always say: "It's not about winning. It's about the hope of winning. If you win consistently for awhile, then people will have the hope of winning forever."

Montana State would have to be absolutely terrible for 10+ years in a row AND have a style that was unappealing to watch AND have a terrible coach for people to completely stop coming to games. And that wouldn't happen. If MSU was FBS, they could out-recruit at least half the league simply based on Bozeman being a way more desirable destination than Laramie or Reno or San Jose or wherever.

Hope of winning what? The Potato Bowl? Nope, as a lifelong Bobcat fan, I hope to win a National title and I don’t see that happening in the FBS. If Bozeman was such a desirable location for players, then the Cats would be destroying the Dakota schools every single year.

The Dakota schools are better in recruiting than Montana State because MSU practices at 6 a.m. in the freezing cold while the Jacks and the Bison practice inside. They also have far superior recruiting budgets and can offer full cost of attendance. Fargo metro is more than twice Bozeman metropolitan population. Both Brookings and Fargo are 3-3.5 hours from Minneapolis. Bozeman is not within six hours of any major city.

Perfect response, Colter. Too many fans don’t realize how utterly left in the dust the Montana schools would be if they don’t take a G5 invite if it were presented. They talk about not being excited about being in a bowl game, but how anybody could be looking forward to this year’s home slate is beyond me. The FCS is dying, and college football as a whole is morphing. I personally see the G5 and P5 splitting, and if the Montana schools don’t jump up when the opportunity arises, we’re going to be stuck in a third rate division. Going 11-1 is pretty dumb is half the teams you’re playing are borderline D2 schools.

NDSU was D2 just twenty years ago. Why can’t the FCS be built up? There have been D2 schools moving to the FCS over the past few years, MSU is playing one in Utah Tech this season.
Colter’s examples of how MSU not having the infrastructure, recruiting budgets and bennies for athlete's along with not being within 6 hours of any major city doesn’t change easily with a move to FBS. MSU can just as easily become a UNLV or New Mexico bottom dweller for decades.

[The Butcher]

Wrong. They seek after a Mountain West Championship and I honestly might value that down the road as well, more than an FCS title with the current trend in this division. You take out us and the DSU's are you really proud of that? That you knocked off Incarnate Word, Bill and Mary, northsouthwest state u on the way to a title? NDSU and SDSU aren't long for the FCS and once they are gone are we really happy being the highschooler beating up on the third graders during recess? We shouldn't be the last one to leave the party.

Missouri State is also talking about moving to FBS. I guess the Sun Belt or Conference USA which are conferences that are for the most part just FCS schools that "moved up"...

[kmax]

I put together some data for the Big Sky that I found at https://knightnewhousedata.org/fcs/, no idea how accurate it really is.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

There is a tab for straight $ and then % of revenue.

This is great, thanks! Only thing I would really question here is the "Corporate Sponsorship, Advertising, Licensing" number for MSU. That seems incredibly, unbelievably low.

[AFCAT]

I put together some data for the Big Sky that I found at https://knightnewhousedata.org/fcs/, no idea how accurate it really is.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

There is a tab for straight $ and then % of revenue.

This is great, thanks! Only thing I would really question here is the "Corporate Sponsorship, Advertising, Licensing" number for MSU. That seems incredibly, unbelievably low.

What’s really interesting to me is EWU manages to put a dang good product (not including last season) on the field with a minimal amount of cash.

[coloradocat]

I put together some data for the Big Sky that I found at https://knightnewhousedata.org/fcs/, no idea how accurate it really is.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

There is a tab for straight $ and then % of revenue.

This is great, thanks! Only thing I would really question here is the "Corporate Sponsorship, Advertising, Licensing" number for MSU. That seems incredibly, unbelievably low.

If that's all we're getting for the Rosauer's Vegetable Zone there has to be another company in the state that can afford to beat it.

[CelticCat]

I put together some data for the Big Sky that I found at https://knightnewhousedata.org/fcs/, no idea how accurate it really is.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

There is a tab for straight $ and then % of revenue.

This is great, thanks! Only thing I would really question here is the "Corporate Sponsorship, Advertising, Licensing" number for MSU. That seems incredibly, unbelievably low.

Some of the data definitely seems suspect for sure (UC Davis $22k ticket sales??) but it was the only place I could find that had all schools and had revenue broken out into categories like that. I think it's close enough to paint some pictures anyway.

[CelticCat]

Another pro to me for moving to a decent to good FBS conference is fan engagement. How often do we as Bobcat fans get to interact with any other fans in the conference besides the Griz, and a handful of EWU and Weber fans? Thanks goodness Idaho is back as they have a decent fanbase, but half the fanbases in the Big Sky are non-existent in the digital world and that's because they just don't really have many fans. This also includes visitors to Bozeman - Wyoming, Boise State would for sure bring more fans to Bozeman than anyone ever has in my lifetime not from Missoula. This is why I think we could expand the stadium pretty quickly after a move to the FBS, we'd have more visiting fans because there would be teams in the conference who ... actually have fans.