Shot Clock and Baseball in Montana Sports

[BStinsMSU]

I know there was a vote going on, haven’t found an article or anything that confirms it but I think both things are huge deals if they are true.

High school basketball has needed a shot clock for a long long time. A lack of rule that seriously impacted games in a negative way. (See Gallatin Valley Homeschool dribble out an entire half 3-4 years ago)

Baseball is interesting if true. I personally stopped playing baseball come high school, so I had no personal experience with the current structure. But will they move the season so those who play legion ball will be able to do both? Or is this the end of legion ball as we know it? I didn’t have a huge issue with the baseball structure as it is now but I think that this will be a huge shockwave if it is true.

[wbtfg]

I know there was a vote going on, haven’t found an article or anything that confirms it but I think both things are huge deals if they are true.

High school basketball has needed a shot clock for a long long time. A lack of rule that seriously impacted games in a negative way. (See Gallatin Valley Homeschool dribble out an entire half 3-4 years ago)

Baseball is interesting if true. I personally stopped playing baseball come high school, so I had no personal experience with the current structure. But will they move the season so those who play legion ball will be able to do both? Or is this the end of legion ball as we know it? I didn’t have a huge issue with the baseball structure as it is now but I think that this will be a huge shockwave if it is true.

Shot clock has been a long time coming. I really like this.

Baseball is interesting. Are there title IX implications in adding another boys sport? How does this affect legion ball? How long will it take schools to get the facilities....can they use legion facilities?

[BStinsMSU]

I know there was a vote going on, haven’t found an article or anything that confirms it but I think both things are huge deals if they are true.

High school basketball has needed a shot clock for a long long time. A lack of rule that seriously impacted games in a negative way. (See Gallatin Valley Homeschool dribble out an entire half 3-4 years ago)

Baseball is interesting if true. I personally stopped playing baseball come high school, so I had no personal experience with the current structure. But will they move the season so those who play legion ball will be able to do both? Or is this the end of legion ball as we know it? I didn’t have a huge issue with the baseball structure as it is now but I think that this will be a huge shockwave if it is true.

Shot clock has been a long time coming. I really like this.

Baseball is interesting. Are there title IX implications in adding another boys sport? How does this affect legion ball? How long will it take schools to get the facilities....can they use legion facilities?

I’m assuming so. Facilities wise I know either Helena high school would have to build their own if they don’t borrow the legion field. I worried about competing with legion but I read that someone representing Legion said that the competing seasons wouldn’t impact them, so maybe they’re looking at shortening their season. I also got the general sense that people were happy with baseball being added, which makes me think that maybe people weren’t happy with the current state of legion ball.

[tdub]

I know there was a vote going on, haven’t found an article or anything that confirms it but I think both things are huge deals if they are true.

High school basketball has needed a shot clock for a long long time. A lack of rule that seriously impacted games in a negative way. (See Gallatin Valley Homeschool dribble out an entire half 3-4 years ago)

Baseball is interesting if true. I personally stopped playing baseball come high school, so I had no personal experience with the current structure. But will they move the season so those who play legion ball will be able to do both? Or is this the end of legion ball as we know it? I didn’t have a huge issue with the baseball structure as it is now but I think that this will be a huge shockwave if it is true.

Shot clock has been a long time coming. I really like this.

Baseball is interesting. Are there title IX implications in adding another boys sport? How does this affect legion ball? How long will it take schools to get the facilities....can they use legion facilities?

I’m assuming so. Facilities wise I know either Helena high school would have to build their own if they don’t borrow the legion field. I worried about competing with legion but I read that someone representing Legion said that the competing seasons wouldn’t impact them, so maybe they’re looking at shortening their season. I also got the general sense that people were happy with baseball being added, which makes me think that maybe people weren’t happy with the current state of legion ball.

High school and legion ball can work very well together. The meat of the legion season doesn’t start until school gets out anyway. Anything before then is non-conference and getting pitchers arms in shape. So with high school ball, kids will be in mid-season mode when legion starts. It should deepen the talent pool for legion as overall baseball participation should increase.

The issue is facilities. Montana is not blessed with weather to have good baseball facilities until about late May. Most towns don’t have an existing playable facility. And legion-run or city/county run facilities will have to charge for use of the facility as all the maintenance of the facility costs money.

By every competitive aspect I love the addition of baseball. For all of the monetary and title ix related reasons I have a hard time figuring out how it’s all going to work.

[BStinsMSU]

I know there was a vote going on, haven’t found an article or anything that confirms it but I think both things are huge deals if they are true.

High school basketball has needed a shot clock for a long long time. A lack of rule that seriously impacted games in a negative way. (See Gallatin Valley Homeschool dribble out an entire half 3-4 years ago)

Baseball is interesting if true. I personally stopped playing baseball come high school, so I had no personal experience with the current structure. But will they move the season so those who play legion ball will be able to do both? Or is this the end of legion ball as we know it? I didn’t have a huge issue with the baseball structure as it is now but I think that this will be a huge shockwave if it is true.

Shot clock has been a long time coming. I really like this.

Baseball is interesting. Are there title IX implications in adding another boys sport? How does this affect legion ball? How long will it take schools to get the facilities....can they use legion facilities?

I’m assuming so. Facilities wise I know either Helena high school would have to build their own if they don’t borrow the legion field. I worried about competing with legion but I read that someone representing Legion said that the competing seasons wouldn’t impact them, so maybe they’re looking at shortening their season. I also got the general sense that people were happy with baseball being added, which makes me think that maybe people weren’t happy with the current state of legion ball.

High school and legion ball can work very well together. The meat of the legion season doesn’t start until school gets out anyway. Anything before then is non-conference and getting pitchers arms in shape. So with high school ball, kids will be in mid-season mode when legion starts. It should deepen the talent pool for legion as overall baseball participation should increase.

The issue is facilities. Montana is not blessed with weather to have good baseball facilities until about late May. Most towns don’t have an existing playable facility. And legion-run or city/county run facilities will have to charge for use of the facility as all the maintenance of the facility costs money.

By every competitive aspect I love the addition of baseball. For all of the monetary and title ix related reasons I have a hard time figuring out how it’s all going to work.

MHSA added Women’s wrestling last year, so there is no title ix issues to my understanding. That may be why there was more enthusiasm towards adding it this year versus previous years.

[tdub]

I know there was a vote going on, haven’t found an article or anything that confirms it but I think both things are huge deals if they are true.

High school basketball has needed a shot clock for a long long time. A lack of rule that seriously impacted games in a negative way. (See Gallatin Valley Homeschool dribble out an entire half 3-4 years ago)

Baseball is interesting if true. I personally stopped playing baseball come high school, so I had no personal experience with the current structure. But will they move the season so those who play legion ball will be able to do both? Or is this the end of legion ball as we know it? I didn’t have a huge issue with the baseball structure as it is now but I think that this will be a huge shockwave if it is true.

Shot clock has been a long time coming. I really like this.

Baseball is interesting. Are there title IX implications in adding another boys sport? How does this affect legion ball? How long will it take schools to get the facilities....can they use legion facilities?

I’m assuming so. Facilities wise I know either Helena high school would have to build their own if they don’t borrow the legion field. I worried about competing with legion but I read that someone representing Legion said that the competing seasons wouldn’t impact them, so maybe they’re looking at shortening their season. I also got the general sense that people were happy with baseball being added, which makes me think that maybe people weren’t happy with the current state of legion ball.

High school and legion ball can work very well together. The meat of the legion season doesn’t start until school gets out anyway. Anything before then is non-conference and getting pitchers arms in shape. So with high school ball, kids will be in mid-season mode when legion starts. It should deepen the talent pool for legion as overall baseball participation should increase.

The issue is facilities. Montana is not blessed with weather to have good baseball facilities until about late May. Most towns don’t have an existing playable facility. And legion-run or city/county run facilities will have to charge for use of the facility as all the maintenance of the facility costs money.

By every competitive aspect I love the addition of baseball. For all of the monetary and title ix related reasons I have a hard time figuring out how it’s all going to work.

MHSA added Women’s wrestling last year, so there is no title ix issues to my understanding. That may be why there was more enthusiasm towards adding it this year versus previous years.

That’s a great point about the addition of wrestling. Probably should have thought of that considering I coach high school wrestling, including the girls team.

[MTCowpoke22]

I thought that Men's Powerlifting offset the addition to Women's Wrestling??? I'm not a fan of adding baseball, but purely from the monetary aspect. Maybe the AA schools can afford it, and if they can more power to them. But it seems as though budgets all the way from District 1 in Billing to Class C Ekalaka are always stretched damn tight. Now Admins and AD's are going to have to carve out funds for a whole new set of uniforms and gear, along with hiring coaches and renting fields. It just seems to me that Legion ball is already filling the void, and this is an attempt to get the taxpayers to subsidize another sport for parents.

[wbtfg]

I thought that Men's Powerlifting offset the addition to Women's Wrestling??? I'm not a fan of adding baseball, but purely from the monetary aspect. Maybe the AA schools can afford it, and if they can more power to them. But it seems as though budgets all the way from District 1 in Billing to Class C Ekalaka are always stretched damn tight. Now Admins and AD's are going to have to carve out funds for a whole new set of uniforms and gear, along with hiring coaches and renting fields. It just seems to me that Legion ball is already filling the void, and this is an attempt to get the taxpayers to subsidize another sport for parents.

I'm not sure of the process of adding a new sport like this. Does the proposal come from the schools and AD's? Are AD's consulted for input before the vote. I would imagine the MHSA wouldn't add a sport if there wasn't wide support from districts and AD's. That's all purely speculation on my part....I have no idea how this process works.

[Hawks86]

This article explains a little bit on who votes (representatives/AD's) and how baseball will be up to each school to add or not.

https://406mtsports.com/baseball/legion ... 974c3.html

[Mtcatfan]

Did they mention the length of the proposed shot clock? Haven’t seen anything. One more thing for amateur referees to keep track of. Hard enough to ref these games.

[LTown Cat]

Did they mention the length of the proposed shot clock? Haven’t seen anything. One more thing for amateur referees to keep track of. Hard enough to ref these games.

35 seconds.

[MTCowpoke22]

I thought that Men's Powerlifting offset the addition to Women's Wrestling??? I'm not a fan of adding baseball, but purely from the monetary aspect. Maybe the AA schools can afford it, and if they can more power to them. But it seems as though budgets all the way from District 1 in Billing to Class C Ekalaka are always stretched damn tight. Now Admins and AD's are going to have to carve out funds for a whole new set of uniforms and gear, along with hiring coaches and renting fields. It just seems to me that Legion ball is already filling the void, and this is an attempt to get the taxpayers to subsidize another sport for parents.

I'm not sure of the process of adding a new sport like this. Does the proposal come from the schools and AD's? Are AD's consulted for input before the vote. I would imagine the MHSA wouldn't add a sport if there wasn't wide support from districts and AD's. That's all purely speculation on my part....I have no idea how this process works.

I don't know either. I do know that there has been a push to get baseball added from folks who claim Legion ball is too expensive. I would imagine there is support for adding it among the AA and maybe A schools. However, in talking to some of the AD in some of the area Class C schools, it wasn't something they really wanted. Although as one pointed out, a Class C school will not likely have the numbers to support a team when both track and golf are competing for the same kids.

[Hawks86]

I don't know either. I do know that there has been a push to get baseball added from folks who claim Legion ball is too expensive.

I know my baseball playing days ended because my parents couldn't afford the costs of Legion ball. And that was in the 80's.

[wbtfg]

I thought that Men's Powerlifting offset the addition to Women's Wrestling??? I'm not a fan of adding baseball, but purely from the monetary aspect. Maybe the AA schools can afford it, and if they can more power to them. But it seems as though budgets all the way from District 1 in Billing to Class C Ekalaka are always stretched damn tight. Now Admins and AD's are going to have to carve out funds for a whole new set of uniforms and gear, along with hiring coaches and renting fields. It just seems to me that Legion ball is already filling the void, and this is an attempt to get the taxpayers to subsidize another sport for parents.

I'm not sure of the process of adding a new sport like this. Does the proposal come from the schools and AD's? Are AD's consulted for input before the vote. I would imagine the MHSA wouldn't add a sport if there wasn't wide support from districts and AD's. That's all purely speculation on my part....I have no idea how this process works.

I don't know either. I do know that there has been a push to get baseball added from folks who claim Legion ball is too expensive. I would imagine there is support for adding it among the AA and maybe A schools. However, in talking to some of the AD in some of the area Class C schools, it wasn't something they really wanted. Although as one pointed out, a Class C school will not likely have the numbers to support a team when both track and golf are competing for the same kids.

Not to start too much of a crazy rabbit hole, and it has been a long time since I've played baseball, but I wonder if High School and Legion seasons back to back might cause some overuse arm injuries for pitchers.

[Bobcat4Ever]

I thought that Men's Powerlifting offset the addition to Women's Wrestling??? I'm not a fan of adding baseball, but purely from the monetary aspect. Maybe the AA schools can afford it, and if they can more power to them. But it seems as though budgets all the way from District 1 in Billing to Class C Ekalaka are always stretched damn tight. Now Admins and AD's are going to have to carve out funds for a whole new set of uniforms and gear, along with hiring coaches and renting fields. It just seems to me that Legion ball is already filling the void, and this is an attempt to get the taxpayers to subsidize another sport for parents.

I'm not sure of the process of adding a new sport like this. Does the proposal come from the schools and AD's? Are AD's consulted for input before the vote. I would imagine the MHSA wouldn't add a sport if there wasn't wide support from districts and AD's. That's all purely speculation on my part....I have no idea how this process works.

I don't know either. I do know that there has been a push to get baseball added from folks who claim Legion ball is too expensive. I would imagine there is support for adding it among the AA and maybe A schools. However, in talking to some of the AD in some of the area Class C schools, it wasn't something they really wanted. Although as one pointed out, a Class C school will not likely have the numbers to support a team when both track and golf are competing for the same kids.

If Legion is too expensive, why would High School be any less expensive? Wouldn’t the program costs be similar? It would only be less expensive to the participants because of cost spreading. Is there evidence of community benefit to having the taxpayers support an additional, fairly expensive sport?

[Hawks86]

Who mentioned rabbit holes?

[MTCowpoke22]

I thought that Men's Powerlifting offset the addition to Women's Wrestling??? I'm not a fan of adding baseball, but purely from the monetary aspect. Maybe the AA schools can afford it, and if they can more power to them. But it seems as though budgets all the way from District 1 in Billing to Class C Ekalaka are always stretched damn tight. Now Admins and AD's are going to have to carve out funds for a whole new set of uniforms and gear, along with hiring coaches and renting fields. It just seems to me that Legion ball is already filling the void, and this is an attempt to get the taxpayers to subsidize another sport for parents.

I'm not sure of the process of adding a new sport like this. Does the proposal come from the schools and AD's? Are AD's consulted for input before the vote. I would imagine the MHSA wouldn't add a sport if there wasn't wide support from districts and AD's. That's all purely speculation on my part....I have no idea how this process works.

I don't know either. I do know that there has been a push to get baseball added from folks who claim Legion ball is too expensive. I would imagine there is support for adding it among the AA and maybe A schools. However, in talking to some of the AD in some of the area Class C schools, it wasn't something they really wanted. Although as one pointed out, a Class C school will not likely have the numbers to support a team when both track and golf are competing for the same kids.

If Legion is too expensive, why would High School be any less expensive? Wouldn’t the program costs be similar? It would only be less expensive to the participants because of cost spreading. Is there evidence of community benefit to having the taxpayers support an additional, fairly expensive sport?

It likely won't be any less/more expensive, but it will be up to the school(taxpayer) to foot the bill. So, therefore, it would definitely be much less expensive to the participants. I'd assume they'd only have to cover some of the nominal equipment expenses like cleats, gloves, and bats. I don't know how most Legion teams function, but it sounds like for quite a few the kid or the parents have to pay a fee to be on the team. At least that was the argument made for having MHSA approve Baseball. I live in a small town that isn't always able to field a team, but when they do, they hit the streets for donations. They also collect off the concessions stand at the home games and have a food both at the county fair. None of the kids are required to pay to be on the team, but make up for it in other ways.

[tdub]

I thought that Men's Powerlifting offset the addition to Women's Wrestling??? I'm not a fan of adding baseball, but purely from the monetary aspect. Maybe the AA schools can afford it, and if they can more power to them. But it seems as though budgets all the way from District 1 in Billing to Class C Ekalaka are always stretched damn tight. Now Admins and AD's are going to have to carve out funds for a whole new set of uniforms and gear, along with hiring coaches and renting fields. It just seems to me that Legion ball is already filling the void, and this is an attempt to get the taxpayers to subsidize another sport for parents.

I'm not sure of the process of adding a new sport like this. Does the proposal come from the schools and AD's? Are AD's consulted for input before the vote. I would imagine the MHSA wouldn't add a sport if there wasn't wide support from districts and AD's. That's all purely speculation on my part....I have no idea how this process works.

I don't know either. I do know that there has been a push to get baseball added from folks who claim Legion ball is too expensive. I would imagine there is support for adding it among the AA and maybe A schools. However, in talking to some of the AD in some of the area Class C schools, it wasn't something they really wanted. Although as one pointed out, a Class C school will not likely have the numbers to support a team when both track and golf are competing for the same kids.

If Legion is too expensive, why would High School be any less expensive? Wouldn’t the program costs be similar? It would only be less expensive to the participants because of cost spreading. Is there evidence of community benefit to having the taxpayers support an additional, fairly expensive sport?

It likely won't be any less/more expensive, but it will be up to the school(taxpayer) to foot the bill. So, therefore, it would definitely be much less expensive to the participants. I'd assume they'd only have to cover some of the nominal equipment expenses like cleats, gloves, and bats. I don't know how most Legion teams function, but it sounds like for quite a few the kid or the parents have to pay a fee to be on the team. At least that was the argument made for having MHSA approve Baseball. I live in a small town that isn't always able to field a team, but when they do, they hit the streets for donations. They also collect off the concessions stand at the home games and have a food both at the county fair. None of the kids are required to pay to be on the team, but make up for it in other ways.

Correct. I had two boys go through the Kalispell legion program and I paid virtually nothing out of pocket. It was more expensive to play youth all-star seasons due to covering cost of travel, which is included in legion fees. The legion fees were paid for via sponsorship sales and a lot of the remaining budget was raised via banquets, auctions, raffles, etc. So while the stigma is that legion is expensive, it is probably the most budget-friendly thing any of my kids did.

[kennethnoisewater]

Both of these will be interesting. I know some schools voted for both propositions and still don't know how they'll pay for either.

Shot clock will be welcomed by all fans and most coaches. Schools will have a pretty major capital investment to buy the clocks and have them wired into the building. If their current scoreboard system doesn't support a shot clock, they may have to replace the whole setup, which will cost $10,000 and up. Generally, for every high school game, schools pay (if they don't have volunteers) an official scorer (official book) and someone to run the clock. The addition of a shot clock will add another worker just to manage that. And scorer's tables at most schools don't have the space for another person, so that's a concern as well. There will be schools that will pay $20-30k just to get set up correctly, although it can be done much cheaper. This change was inevitable though, so it's time for schools to bite the bullet and just get it done.

Baseball is one I'm not in support of personally. As others have mentioned, AA schools shouldn't have a ton of trouble. Paying coaches, renting fields (few schools have the space to accommodate baseball facilities even if they have the money to build them), paying umpires, buying equipment, and paying for travel will cost a lot. I'm sure it'll be $50k and up for a AA program with JV and Varsity, 4-5 coaches (at $5k each), 10 bus trips (at $500 each), field rental and maintenance (say $5k), a couple hotel stays ($1500/night), umpires ($1,000), ticket takers/scorekeepers/janitors, and various equipment. Some of this can be volunteer, some will be fundraised. Not a dealbreaker for AA schools and some A schools.

But my issue with it is something will probably suffer at the smaller schools. It's a challenge these days to get enough kids out for sports to justify the costs. These sports are expensive. The capital investment a school district makes for, say track and field, which brings in zero revenue, is significant, as is the annual investment. If you have 50-100 kids out, it's a worthwhile expense. But kids are increasingly not coming out for sports as much anyway, and to take more of that away is concerning. And I'm all for giving kids as many options as possible, but small schools have to make big decisions about it. I'm familiar with Bigfork, but there are dozens of schools across the state who aren't going to be able to put together baseball teams and will lose kids to nearby schools where they have more opportunities. These enrollment issues have real consequences for other sports and for general school funding. If taxpayers realized how many hundreds of thousands of dollars were spent on high school sports every year in even the small districts, they'd want to know that they weren't throwing money at sports with low participation numbers.

Oh, and I don't think we're too far out from lacrosse becoming an MHSA sanctioned sport. If baseball and lacrosse are really that popular, great. But I think we'll start to see schools drop sports like tennis, golf, or soccer.

[LTown Cat]

Both of these will be interesting. I know some schools voted for both propositions and still don't know how they'll pay for either.

Shot clock will be welcomed by all fans and most coaches. Schools will have a pretty major capital investment to buy the clocks and have them wired into the building. If their current scoreboard system doesn't support a shot clock, they may have to replace the whole setup, which will cost $10,000 and up. Generally, for every high school game, schools pay (if they don't have volunteers) an official scorer (official book) and someone to run the clock. The addition of a shot clock will add another worker just to manage that. And scorer's tables at most schools don't have the space for another person, so that's a concern as well. There will be schools that will pay $20-30k just to get set up correctly, although it can be done much cheaper. This change was inevitable though, so it's time for schools to bite the bullet and just get it done.

Baseball is one I'm not in support of personally. As others have mentioned, AA schools shouldn't have a ton of trouble. Paying coaches, renting fields (few schools have the space to accommodate baseball facilities even if they have the money to build them), paying umpires, buying equipment, and paying for travel will cost a lot. I'm sure it'll be $50k and up for a AA program with JV and Varsity, 4-5 coaches (at $5k each), 10 bus trips (at $500 each), field rental and maintenance (say $5k), a couple hotel stays ($1500/night), umpires ($1,000), ticket takers/scorekeepers/janitors, and various equipment. Some of this can be volunteer, some will be fundraised. Not a dealbreaker for AA schools and some A schools.

But my issue with it is something will probably suffer at the smaller schools. It's a challenge these days to get enough kids out for sports to justify the costs. These sports are expensive. The capital investment a school district makes for, say track and field, which brings in zero revenue, is significant, as is the annual investment. If you have 50-100 kids out, it's a worthwhile expense. But kids are increasingly not coming out for sports as much anyway, and to take more of that away is concerning. And I'm all for giving kids as many options as possible, but small schools have to make big decisions about it. I'm familiar with Bigfork, but there are dozens of schools across the state who aren't going to be able to put together baseball teams and will lose kids to nearby schools where they have more opportunities. These enrollment issues have real consequences for other sports and for general school funding. If taxpayers realized how many hundreds of thousands of dollars were spent on high school sports every year in even the small districts, they'd want to know that they weren't throwing money at sports with low participation numbers.

Oh, and I don't think we're too far out from lacrosse becoming an MHSA sanctioned sport. If baseball and lacrosse are really that popular, great. But I think we'll start to see schools drop sports like tennis, golf, or soccer.

Not trying to argue...just want to point out that you can buy two portable shot clocks (they sit on the floor on a tripod) for $800. My son played AAU for three years and many gyms used them. They aren't the perfect solution but for the money they are serviceable.