QB Update

[utucats]

I like how everyone on here just assumes that it’s easy to play wide receiver.

Want to start someone else at QB? No problem just move the other guy to WR!

I don’t think we’re saying that. I think what we’re saying is Chris’s skill set lends itself to a high probability of success at that position.

Somebody said last season on this board that stacking weight on Chris and making him a receiving TE is the best ide. I honestly think that thought is sort of brilliant. But the weight may slow him down to the point where his spice is gone.

Anyway, the point is Chris can play a number of different positions so if we have a better QB son the roster and can keep Chris on the field, let’s do it.

No offense on this comment but I think the idea of Chris at TE is completely ludicrous. Moving him to WR implies that he had the skill set to be a college level route runner and has college level catching ability. Nothing he has done proves that. Making him a TE implies that he had those abilities and blocking capabilities to boot. What part of his football history would illustrate that skill set?

Just because a guy is fast doesn’t mean he is a plug and go at any skill position. What makes a dangerous TE is the dual nature of the position. A great TE can block, catch or block momentarily and then release and become a receiver. The position is dangerous because a defense can easily lose track of this position due to its dual nature. The same can be said for a dual threat QB. Just because Murray is effective when the defense has to honor the threat of the pass doesn’t mean he is going to be dynamic when out into a singular situation. If Murray lines up as a receiver the defense can gameplan against his capabilities much easier. The range of ways to use Murray is limited at the WR position. When Murray decides to run from the QB position the defense is spread out defending our other skill positions. Defensive lineman may be blocked out of position, LBs are either attempting to get to the backfield or have backed off into coverage, and DBs may be 20 yards down field defending receivers. Just because Murray has the legs to navagate his way downfield against a spreadout defense during a broken play doesn’t mean he’ll have the skill to gain position on a DB or bust through the line at the early stages of a play.

Once again, I believe that if Murray is an active part of the roster come next year he’ll be the starting QB. We were a team that narraowly lost to SDSU with him under center. I think with him at QB last season we have a legit shot at winning the conference.

[technoCat]

I like how everyone on here just assumes that it’s easy to play wide receiver.

Want to start someone else at QB? No problem just move the other guy to WR!

I don’t think we’re saying that. I think what we’re saying is Chris’s skill set lends itself to a high probability of success at that position.

Somebody said last season on this board that stacking weight on Chris and making him a receiving TE is the best ide. I honestly think that thought is sort of brilliant. But the weight may slow him down to the point where his spice is gone.

Anyway, the point is Chris can play a number of different positions so if we have a better QB son the roster and can keep Chris on the field, let’s do it.

No offense on this comment but I think the idea of Chris at TE is completely ludicrous. Moving him to WR implies that he had the skill set to be a college level route runner and has college level catching ability. Nothing he has done proves that. Making him a TE implies that he had those abilities and blocking capabilities to boot. What part of his football history would illustrate that skill set?

Just because a guy is fast doesn’t mean he is a plug and go at any skill position. What makes a dangerous TE is the dual nature of the position. A great TE can block, catch or block momentarily and then release and become a receiver. The position is dangerous because a defense can easily lose track of this position due to its dual nature. The same can be said for a dual threat QB. Just because Murray is effective when the defense has to honor the threat of the pass doesn’t mean he is going to be dynamic when out into a singular situation. If Murray lines up as a receiver the defense can gameplan against his capabilities much easier. The range of ways to use Murray is limited at the WR position. When Murray decides to run from the QB position the defense is spread out defending our other skill positions. Defensive lineman may be blocked out of position, LBs are either attempting to get to the backfield or have backed off into coverage, and DBs may be 20 yards down field defending receivers. Just because Murray has the legs to navagate his way downfield against a spreadout defense during a broken play doesn’t mean he’ll have the skill to gain position on a DB or bust through the line at the early stages of a play.

Once again, I believe that if Murray is an active part of the roster come next year he’ll be the starting QB. We were a team that narraowly lost to SDSU with him under center. I think with him at QB last season we have a legit shot at winning the conference.

I think people assume that a QB like Chris can be moved to WR because we see it ALL THE TIME in college and sometimes in the pros(Terrelle Pryor and Braxton Miller jump to mind). If you are big and fast, you don't necessarily need super tight route running to be dominant in college. Chris has demonstrated that he can run in space and has pretty good balance and speed. Can he catch? No idea but with how Jonsen is coming along I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss it.

TE like you said is too much of a stretch. They would have had to get him gaining weight last year and starting to work on blocking technique.

I also don't think he will move away from QB but if he doesn't win the competition they will have to get him on the field some and other than giving him all of Jonsen's and Kassis' wild cat plays, which I don't see happening because of how effective they have been, they would have to put him at RB or WR.

[CelticCat]

I won't lie, it's a little disappointing to hear multiple people say they don't think either Rovig or Bauman is ready yet. If this does't get solidified quickly in fall camp, and assuming Murray is back eligible full time with the team, I have a hard time thinking that Murray is going to not win that job.

[catatac]

Chris will be the starter next year at QB it’s the best option we have. Rovig is making strides for sure and with the off season maybe he takes over come fall, but as of right now Chris would be the QB and he has gotten back in the good graces with the coaches. He isn’t on the team full time right now by design, the coaches want him 100% in the classroom. CM is still ahead of any QB we have even with a year off. Talk to the coaches they will tell you the same thing. I hope Rovig wins the starting job and Chris can move out to the end, only time will tell.

I think it's going to be an awesome competition in the Fall. I'm just not sure which one the team trusts, respects more.

[Hawks86]

While all four quarterbacks were dressed out for the game, only three of them played. The missing guy was Chris Murray who was the Bobcats quarterback two years ago. Choate didn’t comment on why he didn’t play.

[VimSince03]

I won't lie, it's a little disappointing to hear multiple people say they don't think either Rovig or Bauman is ready yet. If this does't get solidified quickly in fall camp, and assuming Murray is back eligible full time with the team, I have a hard time thinking that Murray is going to not win that job.

I completely understand why Casey Bauman isn't ready yet. Posters/fans were really overvaluing his "look" and arm and undervaluing his transition to playing at this high of a level. The goods are there but it takes time to get comfortable with the speed of the college game. Casey will be fine.

On the other hand, I have heard nothing but good things from people I trust that were at the scrimmage on Tucker Rovig. Like I said in an earlier post on another thread, his leadership has taken a 180 since last spring. He's added about 20 lbs. of good weight/muscle, is confident in what he's seeing, and his mechanics are the best of any of our QBs on the roster...including Murray. Tucker is ready to actually compete with Murray for the starting job (I'm sorry but he simply wasn't last year) and will have a leg up because he's in sync with Matt Miller's scheme.

Finally, then there's Chris Murray. Lets go back to that 2017 SDSU game. Chris had one of his best QB performances at MSU, showing the ability to be efficient in the intermediate to deep passing game (something MSU has severely lacked since Choate took over) while still being his usual self on the ground. Chunk plays were happening in that second half...and SDSU had to start defending Murray's arm. But the disappointing part of 2017 is that MSU never really saw that level of efficiency from Murray ever again. That frustration reached a boiling point against Kennessaw State when MSU was driving down two with plenty of time to get into field goal range or even score a touchdown. Murray was protected well and fired high on a simple 10-yard out to a wide-open Kevin Kassis...and the pass was intercepted. But what ensued after was something that was telling for how the coaches felt about Murray's leadership. Chris was fired up when he came off the field after the pick. He was visibly frustrated and what most would assume frustrated at himself. But that wasn't the case as our WR Coach, Matt Miller, pulled him aside and chewed the living crap out of him. And if you know Matt, he doesn't do that often so Chris must have been placing the blame on teammates or playcalling. It was obviously an immature moment for Chris and showed everyone that he still had a ways to go in the leadership department (and who can blame the kid knowing the situation he was thrust into in 2016, being only 19). Anyway, Chris finished the season by playing pretty damn well against NAU (showing some flashes with his arm again) and having a great second half against UM (Stitt had no idea how to stop MSU's run game) en route to a win.

Now lets go to last spring and post-Sonny Holland spring game. Chris had just come off another performance that solidified him as the bona-fide starter/leader of the offense. Tucker was a shell of himself and looked lost while operating the offense. Then everything happens last year and things completely change. So lets go back to what Chris showed during the Spring of 2018. Chris has always been a threat on the ground. Not only is Chris good on outside runs, but also on inside plays which is surprising due to his thin frame. He's such a shifty athlete in tight quarters and makes a lot of guys miss. In one word, he is "slippery." But the best part about last spring was how Chris improved (or seemed to improve) his passing abilities. He was showing noticeable improvement in his mechanics and looked very comfortable operating the offense. Again, consistency was the biggest hurdle and it looked like he had made strides in that area. I had to argue with a few people on this but when Troy took over at QB, I stated Troy was not a better passer than Chris. Basically, Troy was never going to have a 300-yard passing game. For one, his running ability was just as productive and we were explosive when he used his legs. But when we ran into a good defense, Troy struggled to string completions together at different levels of the defense (not just throwing slants and swing routes) and, in turn, our run game suffered. But when Chris flashed efficient passing at all three levels where he could string completions together either short or deep, the 2017 MSU offense was downright dangerous and that proved correct against a very good SDSU team. That is why everyone got (and still is) so excited for Chris because he has arm talent when he gets in a rhythm.

Murray vs. Rovig - So when posters argue for or against Chris or Tucker's passing ability, the end all argument is between two 300 yard passing games (yes MSU has only had two in the past three seasons). Murray's came against a title contender (SDSU) and Tucker's came against Wagner (an awful defense). But what I've tried to tell fans is both games can be evaluated on equal footing for both QBs when just focusing on how the QB operates the scheme. Murray's performance against SDSU was a perfect example of the game slowing down for a QB when the playcalling is lining up with the players ability. Armstrong called a good second half and players were wide-open. Chris was simply finding them...a very simple concept! You could tell Murray was gaining confidence with every possession in that second half, especially the 4th qtr. The QB and OC were in sync. As for Tucker's performance, it was the first time in three years MSU had a QB who could elevate the play of his passing weapons on a consistent basis. Tucker was throwing players open, trusting his targets to make plays, and doing intangible things we haven't seen from a QB in Choate's tenure (audibling out of calls, manipulating safeties with his eyes, showing consistency/poise with some moxie). And then Troy comes in for one run and the defense has no idea what hit them. Just a different speed. EWU has been so successful for the past decade because they know when a QB can put pressure on a defense with their arm, the run game becomes so much more dangerous.

Why can't MSU have this style? Well...I fully believe they can if they just allow it to happen. This is why I believe MSU needs to have a QB who can stretch the field with their arm. Murray, Jonsen, Anderson? They can all play a significant role in the run game AND passing game by not playing QB. Troy and Chris can take handoffs and hell...Troy could be a very dangerous option as a move TE on drag routes or swing routes. Don't overthink it. If Chris gets back on this team and shows he can be consistent passing the ball and operating the offense, I fully believe he is the better option at QB because of his running ability. However, if Tucker has the trust of Matt Miller running his scheme and proves he can make the offense even more explosive AND CONSISTENT through the air, Tucker should be the guy regardless if Chris gets back on the team. There are several ways to be explosive on offense and MSU has the pieces to resemble an EWU scheme. But if the QB can't be consistent through the air, MSU is going to have a tough time getting to the next level in the playoffs.

[technoCat]

@VimSince03 I agree on 95% of that but I have to speak up about the Kennesaw game. I was SOOOOO incredibly disappointed in our OC for calling that out route at that point in the game. You have a guy who has been DESTROYING the other team with his legs but hasn't gotten into a rhythm passing, mostly because he was on the bench most of the second half, and you ask him to try to come in and throw probably THE hardest timing pass for the least to gain(I really don't like those box out routes, you're throwing the ball probably 30 yards from the right hash to the left sideline for MAYBE 10 yards). I'm not excusing Chris' behavior if he was yelling at teammates but damn right it was a bad call.

[VimSince03]

@VimSince03 I agree on 95% of that but I have to speak up about the Kennesaw game. I was SOOOOO incredibly disappointed in our OC for calling that out route at that point in the game. You have a guy who has been DESTROYING the other team with his legs but hasn't gotten into a rhythm passing, mostly because he was on the bench most of the second half, and you ask him to try to come in and throw probably THE hardest timing pass for the least to gain(I really don't like those box out routes, you're throwing the ball probably 30 yards from the right hash to the left sideline for MAYBE 10 yards). I'm not excusing Chris' behavior if he was yelling at teammates but damn right it was a bad call.

I disagree. Kevin was open and would have gotten YAC on that play (which I admit is 100% an assumption but I trust Kevin's ability to juke dudes). Chris had made the throw before so why not call it? He threw it about 10 feet over Kevin's head into the corner's arms who was playing soft coverage. I'm not saying he just missed him. It wasn't even in the ballpark. Would have put us in easy field goal range (about the 25 yard line). Make the throw.

[BozoneCat]

I don't have much to add here, but just wanted to say this has been a really good thread and I'm enjoying the discussion going back and forth!

[catatac]

Minor correction in VIMs reference to CM's age - I think he was only 17 years old when the season started.

[VimSince03]

Minor correction in VIMs reference to CM's age - I think he was only 17 years old when the season started.

I didn't state it well but I was referring to the fact he was 19 when he started that Kennessaw State game.

[technoCat]

@VimSince03 I agree on 95% of that but I have to speak up about the Kennesaw game. I was SOOOOO incredibly disappointed in our OC for calling that out route at that point in the game. You have a guy who has been DESTROYING the other team with his legs but hasn't gotten into a rhythm passing, mostly because he was on the bench most of the second half, and you ask him to try to come in and throw probably THE hardest timing pass for the least to gain(I really don't like those box out routes, you're throwing the ball probably 30 yards from the right hash to the left sideline for MAYBE 10 yards). I'm not excusing Chris' behavior if he was yelling at teammates but damn right it was a bad call.

I disagree. Kevin was open and would have gotten YAC on that play (which I admit is 100% an assumption but I trust Kevin's ability to juke dudes). Chris had made the throw before so why not call it? He threw it about 10 feet over Kevin's head into the corner's arms who was playing soft coverage. I'm not saying he just missed him. It wasn't even in the ballpark. Would have put us in easy field goal range (about the 25 yard line). Make the throw.

My personal frame of reference was almost directly in line from behind Chris looking at Kassis. IF Kassis catches that ball, its for 5 yards because the defender is sitting at the sticks ready to deliver a hit. Chris had to throw it kind of high because the KSU line all had their hands up. I'm not saying it was a good throw. I'm saying that of all the times that route was called with Chris under center, maybe 20% turned out well and on that particular day, Chris had not had the opportunity to get into a rhythm. Just because a play "should" work in a vacuum doesn't mean its the right play for that part of the game. Now if your point is that he should be able to make that throw 80% of the time then my argument is moot. I'm not really a fan of that throw but it is one that a starter at this level should probably be able to make with regularity.

[VimSince03]

@VimSince03 I agree on 95% of that but I have to speak up about the Kennesaw game. I was SOOOOO incredibly disappointed in our OC for calling that out route at that point in the game. You have a guy who has been DESTROYING the other team with his legs but hasn't gotten into a rhythm passing, mostly because he was on the bench most of the second half, and you ask him to try to come in and throw probably THE hardest timing pass for the least to gain(I really don't like those box out routes, you're throwing the ball probably 30 yards from the right hash to the left sideline for MAYBE 10 yards). I'm not excusing Chris' behavior if he was yelling at teammates but damn right it was a bad call.

I disagree. Kevin was open and would have gotten YAC on that play (which I admit is 100% an assumption but I trust Kevin's ability to juke dudes). Chris had made the throw before so why not call it? He threw it about 10 feet over Kevin's head into the corner's arms who was playing soft coverage. I'm not saying he just missed him. It wasn't even in the ballpark. Would have put us in easy field goal range (about the 25 yard line). Make the throw.

My personal frame of reference was almost directly in line from behind Chris looking at Kassis. IF Kassis catches that ball, its for 5 yards because the defender is sitting at the sticks ready to deliver a hit. Chris had to throw it kind of high because the KSU line all had their hands up. I'm not saying it was a good throw. I'm saying that of all the times that route was called with Chris under center, maybe 20% turned out well and on that particular day, Chris had not had the opportunity to get into a rhythm. Just because a play "should" work in a vacuum doesn't mean its the right play for that part of the game. Now if your point is that he should be able to make that throw 80% of the time then my argument is moot. I'm not really a fan of that throw but it is one that a starter at this level should probably be able to make with regularity.

Yeah my Kassis point was just an assumption. But your last two sentences is how I feel about QB play and something I've grown tired of the past three years. MSU can not keep hamstringing the offense because a QB can't make basic throws or "get in rhythm". I'm also not a huge fan of the throw or route, especially against soft zone where the corner is waiting for it. But this was the 4th quarter of an important game for the playoffs and suddenly the playcalling should have been different because the QB can't make a regular throw? This was the same argument last year and in Brugmann's first few starts when we had to throw the ball. I am a firm component of establishing a scheme that highlights what your playmakers do best and it is important to give your QB some early throws to get a feel for how the ball is flying on that given day. But when its crunch time and you can't just run the ball to get in field goal range, a QB needs to be able to make the throws and MSU should be good enough to not have to ask the question on a game-winning drive: "Geez don't call that play because our QB struggles with this throw and that throw." The coaching staff called the play because Chris showed the ability to make the throw, whether in practice or in a game. We were nearing field goal range and 5 yards would have been great in that situation.

[catsrback76]

I won't lie, it's a little disappointing to hear multiple people say they don't think either Rovig or Bauman is ready yet. If this does't get solidified quickly in fall camp, and assuming Murray is back eligible full time with the team, I have a hard time thinking that Murray is going to not win that job.

I completely understand why Casey Bauman isn't ready yet. Posters/fans were really overvaluing his "look" and arm and undervaluing his transition to playing at this high of a level. The goods are there but it takes time to get comfortable with the speed of the college game. Casey will be fine.

On the other hand, I have heard nothing but good things from people I trust that were at the scrimmage on Tucker Rovig. Like I said in an earlier post on another thread, his leadership has taken a 180 since last spring. He's added about 20 lbs. of good weight/muscle, is confident in what he's seeing, and his mechanics are the best of any of our QBs on the roster...including Murray. Tucker is ready to actually compete with Murray for the starting job (I'm sorry but he simply wasn't last year) and will have a leg up because he's in sync with Matt Miller's scheme.

Finally, then there's Chris Murray. Lets go back to that 2017 SDSU game. Chris had one of his best QB performances at MSU, showing the ability to be efficient in the intermediate to deep passing game (something MSU has severely lacked since Choate took over) while still being his usual self on the ground. Chunk plays were happening in that second half...and SDSU had to start defending Murray's arm. But the disappointing part of 2017 is that MSU never really saw that level of efficiency from Murray ever again. That frustration reached a boiling point against Kennessaw State when MSU was driving down two with plenty of time to get into field goal range or even score a touchdown. Murray was protected well and fired high on a simple 10-yard out to a wide-open Kevin Kassis...and the pass was intercepted. But what ensued after was something that was telling for how the coaches felt about Murray's leadership. Chris was fired up when he came off the field after the pick. He was visibly frustrated and what most would assume frustrated at himself. But that wasn't the case as our WR Coach, Matt Miller, pulled him aside and chewed the living crap out of him. And if you know Matt, he doesn't do that often so Chris must have been placing the blame on teammates or playcalling. It was obviously an immature moment for Chris and showed everyone that he still had a ways to go in the leadership department (and who can blame the kid knowing the situation he was thrust into in 2016, being only 19). Anyway, Chris finished the season by playing pretty damn well against NAU (showing some flashes with his arm again) and having a great second half against UM (Stitt had no idea how to stop MSU's run game) en route to a win.

Now lets go to last spring and post-Sonny Holland spring game. Chris had just come off another performance that solidified him as the bona-fide starter/leader of the offense. Tucker was a shell of himself and looked lost while operating the offense. Then everything happens last year and things completely change. So lets go back to what Chris showed during the Spring of 2018. Chris has always been a threat on the ground. Not only is Chris good on outside runs, but also on inside plays which is surprising due to his thin frame. He's such a shifty athlete in tight quarters and makes a lot of guys miss. In one word, he is "slippery." But the best part about last spring was how Chris improved (or seemed to improve) his passing abilities. He was showing noticeable improvement in his mechanics and looked very comfortable operating the offense. Again, consistency was the biggest hurdle and it looked like he had made strides in that area. I had to argue with a few people on this but when Troy took over at QB, I stated Troy was not a better passer than Chris. Basically, Troy was never going to have a 300-yard passing game. For one, his running ability was just as productive and we were explosive when he used his legs. But when we ran into a good defense, Troy struggled to string completions together at different levels of the defense (not just throwing slants and swing routes) and, in turn, our run game suffered. But when Chris flashed efficient passing at all three levels where he could string completions together either short or deep, the 2017 MSU offense was downright dangerous and that proved correct against a very good SDSU team. That is why everyone got (and still is) so excited for Chris because he has arm talent when he gets in a rhythm.

Murray vs. Rovig - So when posters argue for or against Chris or Tucker's passing ability, the end all argument is between two 300 yard passing games (yes MSU has only had two in the past three seasons). Murray's came against a title contender (SDSU) and Tucker's came against Wagner (an awful defense). But what I've tried to tell fans is both games can be evaluated on equal footing for both QBs when just focusing on how the QB operates the scheme. Murray's performance against SDSU was a perfect example of the game slowing down for a QB when the playcalling is lining up with the players ability. Armstrong called a good second half and players were wide-open. Chris was simply finding them...a very simple concept! You could tell Murray was gaining confidence with every possession in that second half, especially the 4th qtr. The QB and OC were in sync. As for Tucker's performance, it was the first time in three years MSU had a QB who could elevate the play of his passing weapons on a consistent basis. Tucker was throwing players open, trusting his targets to make plays, and doing intangible things we haven't seen from a QB in Choate's tenure (audibling out of calls, manipulating safeties with his eyes, showing consistency/poise with some moxie). And then Troy comes in for one run and the defense has no idea what hit them. Just a different speed. EWU has been so successful for the past decade because they know when a QB can put pressure on a defense with their arm, the run game becomes so much more dangerous.

Why can't MSU have this style? Well...I fully believe they can if they just allow it to happen. This is why I believe MSU needs to have a QB who can stretch the field with their arm. Murray, Jonsen, Anderson? They can all play a significant role in the run game AND passing game by not playing QB. Troy and Chris can take handoffs and hell...Troy could be a very dangerous option as a move TE on drag routes or swing routes. Don't overthink it. If Chris gets back on this team and shows he can be consistent passing the ball and operating the offense, I fully believe he is the better option at QB because of his running ability. However, if Tucker has the trust of Matt Miller running his scheme and proves he can make the offense even more explosive AND CONSISTENT through the air, Tucker should be the guy regardless if Chris gets back on the team. There are several ways to be explosive on offense and MSU has the pieces to resemble an EWU scheme. But if the QB can't be consistent through the air, MSU is going to have a tough time getting to the next level in the playoffs.

Nailed IT!

[Darth Yoda]

@VimSince03 I agree on 95% of that but I have to speak up about the Kennesaw game. I was SOOOOO incredibly disappointed in our OC for calling that out route at that point in the game. You have a guy who has been DESTROYING the other team with his legs but hasn't gotten into a rhythm passing, mostly because he was on the bench most of the second half, and you ask him to try to come in and throw probably THE hardest timing pass for the least to gain(I really don't like those box out routes, you're throwing the ball probably 30 yards from the right hash to the left sideline for MAYBE 10 yards). I'm not excusing Chris' behavior if he was yelling at teammates but damn right it was a bad call.

I disagree. Kevin was open and would have gotten YAC on that play (which I admit is 100% an assumption but I trust Kevin's ability to juke dudes). Chris had made the throw before so why not call it? He threw it about 10 feet over Kevin's head into the corner's arms who was playing soft coverage. I'm not saying he just missed him. It wasn't even in the ballpark. Would have put us in easy field goal range (about the 25 yard line). Make the throw.

My personal frame of reference was almost directly in line from behind Chris looking at Kassis. IF Kassis catches that ball, its for 5 yards because the defender is sitting at the sticks ready to deliver a hit. Chris had to throw it kind of high because the KSU line all had their hands up. I'm not saying it was a good throw. I'm saying that of all the times that route was called with Chris under center, maybe 20% turned out well and on that particular day, Chris had not had the opportunity to get into a rhythm. Just because a play "should" work in a vacuum doesn't mean its the right play for that part of the game. Now if your point is that he should be able to make that throw 80% of the time then my argument is moot. I'm not really a fan of that throw but it is one that a starter at this level should probably be able to make with regularity.

Yeah my Kassis point was just an assumption. But your last two sentences is how I feel about QB play and something I've grown tired of the past three years. MSU can not keep hamstringing the offense because a QB can't make basic throws or "get in rhythm". I'm also not a huge fan of the throw or route, especially against soft zone where the corner is waiting for it. But this was the 4th quarter of an important game for the playoffs and suddenly the playcalling should have been different because the QB can't make a regular throw? This was the same argument last year and in Brugmann's first few starts when we had to throw the ball. I am a firm component of establishing a scheme that highlights what your playmakers do best and it is important to give your QB some early throws to get a feel for how the ball is flying on that given day. But when its crunch time and you can't just run the ball to get in field goal range, a QB needs to be able to make the throws and MSU should be good enough to not have to ask the question on a game-winning drive: "Geez don't call that play because our QB struggles with this throw and that throw." The coaching staff called the play because Chris showed the ability to make the throw, whether in practice or in a game. We were nearing field goal range and 5 yards would have been great in that situation.

I've been frustrated with late game QB play and our ability to close out teams since the last 3 games of DM's career. When DM started 26-3 in his first 29 conference games, we had a knack of closing teams and sneaking out with a win. Prukop only was able to make magic happen one time at Sac State, and in several other games he simply couldn't close it the same way DM did (at North Dakota comes to mind). I really like how Murray has beaten the grizz twice, but we largly went cold in the second half of those games. I like that Troy accelerated in the second half of games and it seemed like we had a return of the DM magic in a couple games (Idaho for example), but it other games not so much. So what's my point? I hope that somebody will find a way to make critical plays late that ensures us the win. Until DM's injury that contributed to a 0-3 finish to his career, I really haven't seen this consistently happen since.

[The MICKSTER]

I've been frustrated with late game QB play and our ability to close out teams since the last 3 games of DM's career. When DM started 26-3 in his first 29 conference games, we had a knack of closing teams and sneaking out with a win. Prukop only was able to make magic happen one time at Sac State, and in several other games he simply couldn't close it the same way DM did (at North Dakota comes to mind). I really like how Murray has beaten the grizz twice, but we largly went cold in the second half of those games. I like that Troy accelerated in the second half of games and it seemed like we had a return of the DM magic in a couple games (Idaho for example), but it other games not so much. So what's my point? I hope that somebody will find a way to make critical plays late that ensures us the win. Until DM's injury that contributed to a 0-3 finish to his career, I really haven't seen this consistently happen since.

I think that may have been a result of TG being DC at the time not QB play. I say that because it sure seemed that TG's philosophy on defense was 'bend don't break', and, if we had a significant lead then it seemed as though the 'bend don't break' philosophy became 'crack don't shatter'. In 2016 we were up 24-7 about half way thru the 3rd, with the only score that um had was their first play from scrimmage. In 2017, we were up 24-13 late in the 3rd, and, 31-16 with 6 minutes left in the game. IMHO it seemed as though in those games, and in most other games as well while TG was DC, the theory/game plan was 'just don't give up the big play'. I think this theory at times works and is a smart way to manage the game, but it can also be a way to let teams back in a game that they shouldn't be in to start with. I think this is why the CATS have seemed to give up big plays on 3rd downs and are unable to get off the field......they have been willing to risk giving up a 1st down on 3rd & long, but overemphasize IMO, preventing a 20+yard play. I think this defensive philosophy spilled over to the offense and cost the offense possessions which would have allowed them to get into more of a rhythm......IMHO.

Another example of this IMO is last years game vs um......in the 2nd half the CATS held um to 3 points because we were playing from 2 scores down for the most part, which resulted in a 'more aggressive' defensive play calling. However, as soon as we took the lead after a KO return to mid field um was able to convert, more than I want to count, 3rd & long plays for 1st downs. That 'bend don't break' or 'prevent' defense ended up winning that game in the end, but after the way the defense limited um's offense in the 2nd half up to 2 minutes remaining in the game was impressive to say the least.

Remember in 2016, CM completed a pass to Connor Sullivan on um's 3 yard line for a 1st down with 1:19 left plus a timeout. The CATS just ran out the clock and ended up winning 24-17, but to say we couldn't have got 3 yards in 1:19 with a timeout after we had ran it down um's throats to the tune of 420 yards and 5.9 yds/carry is not realistic. So in the end the game was not as close as the final score would have you believe.

Whether you think that is good or bad I don't think anyone would argue with the statement that, a Choate coached team isn't looking for 'style points', it's more along the lines of 'just win baby'. Were any of Coach Choate's games vs um pretty or dominant.....nope, but they have all been wins! GO CATS!

[Darth Yoda]

I've been frustrated with late game QB play and our ability to close out teams since the last 3 games of DM's career. When DM started 26-3 in his first 29 conference games, we had a knack of closing teams and sneaking out with a win. Prukop only was able to make magic happen one time at Sac State, and in several other games he simply couldn't close it the same way DM did (at North Dakota comes to mind). I really like how Murray has beaten the grizz twice, but we largly went cold in the second half of those games. I like that Troy accelerated in the second half of games and it seemed like we had a return of the DM magic in a couple games (Idaho for example), but it other games not so much. So what's my point? I hope that somebody will find a way to make critical plays late that ensures us the win. Until DM's injury that contributed to a 0-3 finish to his career, I really haven't seen this consistently happen since.

I think that may have been a result of TG being DC at the time not QB play. I say that because it sure seemed that TG's philosophy on defense was 'bend don't break', and, if we had a significant lead then it seemed as though the 'bend don't break' philosophy became 'crack don't shatter'. In 2016 we were up 24-7 about half way thru the 3rd, with the only score that um had was their first play from scrimmage. In 2017, we were up 24-13 late in the 3rd, and, 31-16 with 6 minutes left in the game. IMHO it seemed as though in those games, and in most other games as well while TG was DC, the theory/game plan was 'just don't give up the big play'. I think this theory at times works and is a smart way to manage the game, but it can also be a way to let teams back in a game that they shouldn't be in to start with. I think this is why the CATS have seemed to give up big plays on 3rd downs and are unable to get off the field......they have been willing to risk giving up a 1st down on 3rd & long, but overemphasize IMO, preventing a 20+yard play. I think this defensive philosophy spilled over to the offense and cost the offense possessions which would have allowed them to get into more of a rhythm......IMHO.

Another example of this IMO is last years game vs um......in the 2nd half the CATS held um to 3 points because we were playing from 2 scores down for the most part, which resulted in a 'more aggressive' defensive play calling. However, as soon as we took the lead after a KO return to mid field um was able to convert, more than I want to count, 3rd & long plays for 1st downs. That 'bend don't break' or 'prevent' defense ended up winning that game in the end, but after the way the defense limited um's offense in the 2nd half up to 2 minutes remaining in the game was impressive to say the least.

Remember in 2016, CM completed a pass to Connor Sullivan on um's 3 yard line for a 1st down with 1:19 left plus a timeout. The CATS just ran out the clock and ended up winning 24-17, but to say we couldn't have got 3 yards in 1:19 with a timeout after we had ran it down um's throats to the tune of 420 yards and 5.9 yds/carry is not realistic. So in the end the game was not as close as the final score would have you believe.

Whether you think that is good or bad I don't think anyone would argue with the statement that, a Choate coached team isn't looking for 'style points', it's more along the lines of 'just win baby'. Were any of Coach Choate's games vs um pretty or dominant.....nope, but they have all been wins! GO CATS!

I'm thinking more along the lines of a QB with the "knack", regardless of who DC is. It wasn't just DM, but several other QBs in the same time period. Shooter for example had it in spades. He was a Cat killer, and it so happens I was at the Oregon/ASU game when he came to Tempe, he did the same damn thing down there in a triple overtime game. I was surrounded by shell shocked and disappointed Sundevil fans and all I could think was...Yup, that was about right... During UMs run they seemed to reload with QBs that knew how to win at the end of the game when all the chips were down. There are many more examples. Does Rovig have the knack and can he perform at his highest level when the pressure is at its greatest? For as electrifying as Prukop was at times, and aside from the Sac State win, I don't think he ever played his best when it matter most. Does Murray have it? Yes the completion to Sullivan was amazing, but he only had 2 that game. We won that game because Stitt sucked, and if you read Vim's action above, we won't be able to go to the next level using this approach. Although maybe Murray has the knack and now can actually make throws downfield. Should be fun competition this fall.

[catsrback76]

I've been frustrated with late game QB play and our ability to close out teams since the last 3 games of DM's career. When DM started 26-3 in his first 29 conference games, we had a knack of closing teams and sneaking out with a win. Prukop only was able to make magic happen one time at Sac State, and in several other games he simply couldn't close it the same way DM did (at North Dakota comes to mind). I really like how Murray has beaten the grizz twice, but we largly went cold in the second half of those games. I like that Troy accelerated in the second half of games and it seemed like we had a return of the DM magic in a couple games (Idaho for example), but it other games not so much. So what's my point? I hope that somebody will find a way to make critical plays late that ensures us the win. Until DM's injury that contributed to a 0-3 finish to his career, I really haven't seen this consistently happen since.

I think that may have been a result of TG being DC at the time not QB play. I say that because it sure seemed that TG's philosophy on defense was 'bend don't break', and, if we had a significant lead then it seemed as though the 'bend don't break' philosophy became 'crack don't shatter'. In 2016 we were up 24-7 about half way thru the 3rd, with the only score that um had was their first play from scrimmage. In 2017, we were up 24-13 late in the 3rd, and, 31-16 with 6 minutes left in the game. IMHO it seemed as though in those games, and in most other games as well while TG was DC, the theory/game plan was 'just don't give up the big play'. I think this theory at times works and is a smart way to manage the game, but it can also be a way to let teams back in a game that they shouldn't be in to start with. I think this is why the CATS have seemed to give up big plays on 3rd downs and are unable to get off the field......they have been willing to risk giving up a 1st down on 3rd & long, but overemphasize IMO, preventing a 20+yard play. I think this defensive philosophy spilled over to the offense and cost the offense possessions which would have allowed them to get into more of a rhythm......IMHO.

Another example of this IMO is last years game vs um......in the 2nd half the CATS held um to 3 points because we were playing from 2 scores down for the most part, which resulted in a 'more aggressive' defensive play calling. However, as soon as we took the lead after a KO return to mid field um was able to convert, more than I want to count, 3rd & long plays for 1st downs. That 'bend don't break' or 'prevent' defense ended up winning that game in the end, but after the way the defense limited um's offense in the 2nd half up to 2 minutes remaining in the game was impressive to say the least.

Remember in 2016, CM completed a pass to Connor Sullivan on um's 3 yard line for a 1st down with 1:19 left plus a timeout. The CATS just ran out the clock and ended up winning 24-17, but to say we couldn't have got 3 yards in 1:19 with a timeout after we had ran it down um's throats to the tune of 420 yards and 5.9 yds/carry is not realistic. So in the end the game was not as close as the final score would have you believe.

Whether you think that is good or bad I don't think anyone would argue with the statement that, a Choate coached team isn't looking for 'style points', it's more along the lines of 'just win baby'. Were any of Coach Choate's games vs um pretty or dominant.....nope, but they have all been wins! GO CATS!

I'm thinking more along the lines of a QB with the "knack", regardless of who DC is. It wasn't just DM, but several other QBs in the same time period. Shooter for example had it in spades. He was a Cat killer, and it so happens I was at the Oregon/ASU game when he came to Tempe, he did the same damn thing down there in a triple overtime game. I was surrounded by shell shocked and disappointed Sundevil fans and all I could think was...Yup, that was about right... During UMs run they seemed to reload with QBs that knew how to win at the end of the game when all the chips were down. There are many more examples. Does Rovig have the knack and can he perform at his highest level when the pressure is at its greatest? For as electrifying as Prukop was at times, and aside from the Sac State win, I don't think he ever played his best when it matter most. Does Murray have it? Yes the completion to Sullivan was amazing, but he only had 2 that game. We won that game because Stitt sucked, and if you read Vim's action above, we won't be able to go to the next level using this approach. Although maybe Murray has the knack and now can actually make throws downfield. Should be fun competition this fall.

Yes, this Fall's QB selection will be HUGE! I think if we go with Murray, we will lose Rovig for sure to transfer and maybe Beltran or Baumann. If we go with one of the others, Rovig or B n B, then I think we still keep Murray. Just a thought!

[iaafan]

Where do you think Rovig will transfer?

[91catAlum]

Oh boy, here we go...

Getcha popcorn ready.