Bobcat D is "terrible" according to griz fans?

El_Gato · Post by **El_Gato** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:43 pm

I think it's time to at least look at the #'s, the "terrible" Bobcat Defense vs the "awesome" Griz D. The point of this thread is that I think our Defensive players & coaches are getting a raw deal from fans of BOTH teams; I think the difference between our 2 Defensive units has been VASTLY overstated and I'm going to use the #'s to back up that comment. PLEASE NOTE (griz fans): We all are aware of your 8-2 record vs our 6-4 mark; we all know you are going to the playoffs and we are not so please don't just start spewing that stuff all over again; it's been done to death. I just think our D deserves a lot more credit than they've been getting (plus this supports WHY a # of us think the anemic Griz offense will have trouble scoring in 48 hours...).

First, I'll make 2 statements that I feel are facts; the Griz fans can reject/refute them if they wish, but they'd better "bring it" with some hard facts/figures/results, not just their typical "we're better cuz we're the griz" BullSnot.

1) We've shared 7 common opponents to date; all the Big Sky schools plus Cal Poly. Results/statistics from those 7 games are a valid way to compare our 2 Defenses.

2) I think the Cat's 3 non-con. games (OSU, SFA, NDSU) were tougher on average than were the Griz's (UO, SDSU, Ft. Lewis); which, IMO means that the Griz D should have achieved BETTER defensive #'s in those 3 games than the Cats did in theirs.

So, onto the defensive facts & figures....

____________________________BOBCATS____________________GRIZ

Opp. Rushing plays_______________442______________________356

Rushing yards___________________1729_____________________1126

Yards/rush______________________3.9______________________3.2

Opp. Passing plays_______________271______________________355

Passing yards___________________1705_____________________2196

Yards/pass_____________________6.3_______________________6.2

Opp. Total Plays_________________713______________________711

Total yards_____________________3434_____________________3322

Yards/play______________________4.8______________________4.7

Yards/game____________________343.4_____________________332.2

A bunch of griz fans were bashing me, requesting these #'s because they thought after the last couple of weeks that the Cats would've LOST ground on them; fact is, we got even CLOSER than we were 2 weeks ago.

Again, all I'm trying to show is that the "perception" of the Griz D being CLEARLY better than the Bobcats is just flat wrong. And that will show on Saturday, when we finish the season tied with them for the Big Sky Championship, and only 1 game behind them overall...

BR GRIZ · Post by **BR GRIZ** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:56 pm

IMO you're using selective statistics; add in points scored against and turnover margin and a more accurate comparison results.

jagur1 · Post by **jagur1** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:02 pm

If the cats are so great why are they so far back in the standings? Both programs had the same number of home games?

WYCAT · Post by **WYCAT** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:04 pm

El_Gato wrote:PLEASE NOTE (griz fans): We all are aware of your 8-2 record vs our 6-4 mark; we all know you are going to the playoffs and we are not so please don't just start spewing that stuff all over again; it's been done to death.

Did you not read this part Jags?????

mquast53000 · Post by **mquast53000** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:07 pm

We have gotten KILLED in the turnover margin. We seem to turn the ball over at least twice a game, and we maybe get a turnover once every two games. Turnovers were huge for us this year...

grizband · Post by **grizband** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:07 pm

I didn't realize that the Cats and Griz were that close in total yards allowed. I think the MSU's defense is deceptively good.

El_Gato · Post by **El_Gato** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:09 pm

You haven't been around long enough, BR, to know that I've already identified the Griz's ability to take away the ball and score/set up scores is superior to the Cats, and THAT is the big difference between our D's.

Takeaways and special teams/field position are the biggest reasons the Griz will be going to the postseason and not the Cats, despite the fact that the Cat O is superior to the Griz's.

In other words, IMO the Griz have a slight edge in 2 categories (D/Sp. Teams) while the Cats have a slight edge in 1 (O). Again, IMO that is why the Griz will move on and the Cats won't, despite the Cat's win this Saturday...

grizband · Post by **grizband** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:11 pm

mquast53000 wrote:We have gotten KILLED in the turnover margin. We seem to turn the ball over at least twice a game, and we maybe get a turnover once every two games. Turnovers were huge for us this year...

Turnovers are the main reason I think that the Griz D is so good this year, while the Cat D doesn't appear that good.

El_Gato · Post by **El_Gato** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:12 pm

jag, stfu.

I'm sorry, I can't find in my post where I stated that the Cats "are so great"; I was making a comparison that I bet surprised many/most folks here.

And I didn't realize that second place in the Big Sky equalled being "so far back in the standings...".

When we win Saturday, we will share the Big Sky Conference Championship; again, I didn't realize that a team 1 win away from a title was considered "so far back in the standings...".

jag, stfu.

jagur1 · Post by **jagur1** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:21 pm

Wasn't really was smack. I was wondering if the stats are so close why aren't the points given up close. What went wrong on the cat side. No turnovers by the D? (is the only one I can come up with)

Cat Pride · Post by **Cat Pride** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:25 pm

BR GRIZ wrote:IMO you're using selective statistics; add in points scored against and turnover margin and a more accurate comparison results.

This is how I judge a defense too. Griz defense is a helluva lot better than MSUs based solely on turnovers created and scoring. As soon as you stop measuring defenses by that, then I will consider the Cats defense as good as UMs.

Cat Pride · Post by **Cat Pride** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:27 pm

Personally, I could care less about how many yards the defense allows, so long as they create some turnovers and dont let the other team score. If the other team doesnt score, who cares if they went up and down the field on us. You dont score, you dont win and a good defense doesnt let the other team score!

El_Gato · Post by **El_Gato** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:30 pm

It's not so much the turnovers we forced as it is TURNOVER MARGIN:

Bobcats -7

Griz +13

THAT IS HUGE & THAT IS THE BIGGEST SINGLE REASON THE GRIZ WILL GO TO THE PLAYOFFS & THE CATS MOST LIKELY WON'T, which has been my point about the difference between the Cats & Griz for 2 seasons now.

If anything, these stats IMO show that the Bobcat OFFENSE is the reason we are not better than 6-4 at this point; the D has forced 1.6 turnovers/game which is at least average; the offense, however, has coughed it up 2.3 times/game, which is pretty bad.

BUT, that's also NOT the point of my original post. I was trying to get everyone to realize our D is far better than most (including myself) would have thought prior to comparing the #'s...

CARDIAC_CATS · Post by **CARDIAC_CATS** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:47 pm

mquast53000 wrote:We have gotten KILLED in the turnover margin. We seem to turn the ball over at least twice a game, and we maybe get a turnover once every two games. Turnovers were huge for us this year...

Yep, plain and simple it is TO's. The games we have gotten turnovers by our defense are the games our D has played the best ball. Our D has definately gotten better the last 2-3 games and should be even better this week now that Lowe/Kolone/Mollohan and everyone are healthy. Shouldn't be any excuses on defense this week. We are fully stocked with the same D that held OSU to 15 points. Our coaches just need to keep attacking and good things will come from them.

BelgradeBobcat · Post by **BelgradeBobcat** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:50 pm

Our offense was good enough-but had too many turnovers. Offensive turnovers were big in each of our 4 losses (fumble when driving against OSU, fumble in the endzone against Cal Poly, fumble near the end of the game against PSU, and fumble deep in our territory and interception for touchdown at EWU). In our wins we also had a lot of turnovers, but we also got some in those ball games to balance things out.

Our defense was good enough-but didn't cause enough turnovers. I suspect because we played a little soft this year-preventing big plays-but giving up long drives. To get turnovers you sometimes have to take risks-I don't think our defense is very risky.

Special teams has been our achilles heal. Giving up way too many yards on kickoffs being our biggest problem-especially agains PSU. We must lead the nation in kicking out of bounds (must be about 1 per game).

tetoncat · Post by **tetoncat** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 2:53 pm

Last weekend is the perfect example. Go back and look at many of your own projections. If we would have told you that the D would hold Eastern to so few of yards and 28 points most of you would have said we would win. Many projections had EWU at 28 or 31 points but expected our vaunted offense to be in the upper 30's to 40's. I agree with Gato. Lets place blame where it is deserved. Our offense has failed us in big games.

BWahlberg · Post by **BWahlberg** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:18 pm

Montana Defense

Passing allowed - 219.6
Rushing allowed - 112.6
Total - 332.2
TDs alllowed - 18

MSU Defense

Passing - 170.5
Rushing - 172.9
Total - 343.4
TDs allowed - 28

Not a huge yardage difference, but MSU has given up more TDs

CARDIAC_CATS · Post by **CARDIAC_CATS** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:33 pm

Re/Max Griz wrote:Montana Defense

Passing allowed - 219.6
Rushing allowed - 112.6
Total - 332.2
TDs alllowed - 18

MSU Defense

Passing - 170.5
Rushing - 172.9
Total - 343.4
TDs allowed - 28

Not a huge yardage difference, but MSU has given up more TDs

Yeah, but the Griz also got to play ISU/PSU/NAU/SAC STATE after the Cats had pounded them. Haven't you heard about the Bobcat 'effect'? Teams usually lose after playing us.

Sportin' Life · Post by **Sportin' Life** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:37 pm

CARDIAC_CATS wrote: Yeah, but the Griz also got to play ISU/PSU/NAU/SAC STATE after the Cats had pounded them. Haven't you heard about the Bobcat 'effect'? Teams usually lose after playing us.

Yeah...teams usually lose when they play the Griz after the Bobcats....because of the "bobcat effect".

So you guys are so good that you don't win championships for yourselves...you win it for your rival!

Well, keep those championships coming in!!

BWahlberg · Post by **BWahlberg** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:44 pm

Cats pounded them huh?

ISU - cats by 2
PSU - cats lost by 3
NAU - cats by 7
Suc - cats by 21

Averaging a margin of less than 1 TD, 6.75 points

As for the Griz

ISU - Griz by 22
PSU - Griz by 21
NAU - Griz by 23
Suc - Griz by 17

Avg 20.75

Bobcat D is "terrible" according to griz fans?

Bobcat D is "terrible" according to griz fans?

Re: Bobcat D is "terrible" according to griz fans?