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[SteelheadBum]

Well, folks. What can I say?? The CATS are an average football /program team. Win some; lose some. Every once in a while they beat the griz. Rarely win a lot but have lost quite a few in the past 20 years.

We will remain average until someone decides that being good on paper or wait until next year is no longer satisfactory. Only consistently winning big games will erase the lable LOSER that we CATS have deservingly earned. Now hear me out Bobcat Brothers. The 1984 NC team was a a great year but really a strange anomally when compared to the next 20 years. Something is SYSTEMIC/ROOT CAUSE to MSU continually losing year in and year out no matter how much money and attention are directed to solving the problem. I think MSU just accepts losing and could care less about winning on a consistent basis. We like the cell bitch role. Just look at our winning percentage since the inception of MSU Football. YIKES!! Overall record against the jizz??? Forget about it!!

Americans hate a loser. So do all Montanans. So what's the answer to creating a consistently winning program (yeah, yeah, jizz fans pile on, but I dare say Uncle Denny's $$$$$ did more for your program then any other factor)?????????? I'll give the jizz credit though, they consistently win big games every year. We don't.

Someone tell me what is the solution to our woes. For all you rocket scientists out there, I know winning creates winning, but HOW do the CATS start a winning CULTURE and winning CHARACTER?? Thanks.

[Wellington]

Become the Griz B team and success will be yours.

[JahGriz]

I was pretty impressed with Groves though, he's a nice looking back.

[catsrback76]

Well, folks. What can I say?? The CATS are an average football /program team. Win some; lose some. Every once in a while they beat the griz. Rarely win a lot but have lost quite a few in the past 20 years.

We will remain average until someone decides that being good on paper or wait until next year is no longer satisfactory. Only consistently winning big games will erase the lable LOSER that we CATS have deservingly earned. Now hear me out Bobcat Brothers. The 1984 NC team was a a great year but really a strange anomally when compared to the next 20 years. Something is SYSTEMIC/ROOT CAUSE to MSU continually losing year in and year out no matter how much money and attention are directed to solving the problem. I think MSU just accepts losing and could care less about winning on a consistent basis. We like the cell bitch role. Just look at our winning percentage since the inception of MSU Football. YIKES!! Overall record against the jizz??? Forget about it!!

Americans hate a loser. So do all Montanans. So what's the answer to creating a consistently winning program (yeah, yeah, jizz fans pile on, but I dare say Uncle Denny's $$$$$ did more for your program then any other factor)?????????? I'll give the jizz credit though, they consistently win big games every year. We don't.

Someone tell me what is the solution to our woes. For all you rocket scientists out there, I know winning creates winning, but HOW do the CATS start a winning CULTURE and winning CHARACTER?? Thanks.

It is coaching plain and simple. Slice and dice it anyway you want but when push comes to shove, it is the Head Coach and the staff he creates that breeds that culture.

We do not want to go back in time and replay the bad decisions involved in Lubick leaving and the landslide after Arnold to Solomonson. Solomonson showed us up front that one bad coaching decision plays out over a long period of time. Hysell tried, but he was hired to be a throwback to Holland. There is only 1 Holland and Hysell et al. proved it. Cliff tried but failed. Kramer is a great promoter but is beginning to show that his skills at leading his staff suck.

Don Read made the frizzlies what they are. Winning does begat winning. It is no mystery why USC, Penn State and others continue to win. They win and expect it, and demand it, and coaching is expected to produce it.
We have tried to get there with Kramer. But, ( and I do not think the time is now to pull his plug ) if he does not show coaching skills that get us momentum to move over the 6-5, 7-4 hump, then someone needs to decide if that is satisfactory for the program. If we want to be the smarter university with higher GPA's that rides the middle of the pack, so be it. Tell everyone that's our mission, and we will decide how to spend our fall dollars elsewhere. We will still be Cat fans, we just won't show up... much.
We are a heck of a lot better than we have been over the past 15 years but good enough is not good enough. We are good enough to compete... in most games, but not the ones that count? That is coaching pure and simple.

It all rises and falls on the coaching. They recruit, decide the schemes on both sides of the football, model the correct intensity with integrity and create a competitive atmosphere for the kids. Then, friends, it comes down to fan support and $$$$ given to market and keep the wave rollin.

[BelgradeBobcat]

I think you've started a thread that we could carry through the winter. The reason we are where we're at, how we got here, what happened in the past, and where we are going-is very complicated.

For those of you who have Pat Kearney's book The Divide War: Montana's Golden Treasure Go to page 325. There you will see the MSU football program head off the tracks. Here's a few quotes: "It was the biggest mistake Montana State ever made," said John Kovacich, a Montana player and Butte native. "To fire an entire coaching staff like that is ludicrous. They lost everything. They lost their Montana connection and when that happened their program eventually suffered from it." "Everyone was in shock that Sonny got fired," said Sullivan. "I think it was the worst thing that could've ever happened to Montana State." The decision cost the Bobcats as a sound Montana high school recruiting base established by Lubick, a Butte native, was lost. It did not cost MSU initially, but within five years the ramification of firing a Montana native as a Bobcat coach would be something MSU fans would live to regret for two decades...

Firing Lubick in 1982 was the start of the slide in my opinion. MSU used to get most if not all the states top high school players-after Lubick's firing the griz got them all and their program surged forward. The next fatal mistake-keeping your chain link and sheet metal stadium when your rivals are building out of concrete and wrought iron! We're still making that mistake to a certain extent-our stadium needs to improve! The next fatal step was hiring a coach with an obsolete-boring offense, while your rivals hire a guy with a fun, exciting, high scoring offense that is on the cutting edge. Rember Earle running it up the gut on 3rd and 8? And finally sitting around in denial for too long while the competitive gap gets out of control.

We started to get out of the ditch with the hiring of Hysell. At least he was a tie to our golden years and maybe restored a little bit of credibility with Montana high school coaches. But Hysell was a public relations dud-something MSU desparately needed. The next step in the right direction was the upgrading of facilities and the partial renovation of the stadium. But unfortunately college football is in a huge arm's race. We can't rest on what we've done we must keep building. And finally, I think hiring Kramer was the right thing to do. He has brought a sense of fun and excitment to Bobcat football that was lacking. But he's having trouble getting us over the hump.

Do we keep plugging away or do something drastic. I don't know-we tried something drastic in 1982 and it was a terrible disaster.

[bozbobcat]

If we want to hit rock bottom in football again, kill all hope for stadium expansion, and kill attendance, we should do something drastic. Kramer has brought some degree of winning here after we hit rock bottom in 1999/2000. There is no way that anyone would accept that or take that sort of action. I think that a special teams coach would be the first improvement. I bet that the offensive coordinator is on a very short leash and most of the rest of the offensive staff are there. The defensive staff can't be feeling too secure. A few coaching adjustments are most certainly needed, if not in personnel, philosophy. Consistency of play and lack of mental errors is something that is absolutely necessary for MSU football to rise to the level of UM football. As much as it pains me to say this, the Grizzlies simply do not make these errors. MSU may be rebuilding for a year or two after this season ends. I hope that Travis Lulay and a fine group of seniors can end their careers on a positive note by defeating a very solid University of Montana football team.

[DaGriz]

Consistency of play and lack of mental errors is something that is absolutely necessary for MSU football to rise to the level of UM football. As much as it pains me to say this, the Grizzlies simply do not make these errors.

Actually we made a ton of those stupid plays this week and last week, maybe why our D/special teams outscored our O the last two weeks. Field position and defense is saving our bacon this year.

[BWahlberg]

My thoughts, the TEAM concept.

Of course every football team is a group of guys that play together, but from my side of the fence I see the Griz winning games on all levels. Against Sac St and NAU the Griz O didn't play well, but the D scored a lot of points, created turnovers, and held tight. The Special Teams gave the O short field and gave the opponents a longer field to work with. Of course I'm not fully in touch with the cats games this year, but thats what I see.

I see the cats this year as a one dimensional team, Lulay. Although it appears they've found a good running back, they now lose Lulay this year. The cats, IMO, need to focus on a D that creates turnovers, special teams play that gives them good field position as much as possible, and an offense that has the ability to provide a balanced attack.

[VictorG]

#1 RECRUITING

#2 RECRUITING

#3 RECRUITING

#4 Realizing that it takes time to let your kids that you recruited grow and develope in YOUR system. JV transferee's and 1A drop downs rarely work out. There IS a reason they are in a JV situation or are dropping down. Once and a while you'll get a gem but to build a program you must RECRUIT well and let these kids red shirt when possible!

#5 Coaching................I'll not go into this here and now.



This is the 1st year in a while that I thought the Cats where successful in letting most of their recrutes red shirt. It didn't help this years class much but it will 2 to 3 years down the road. You may not know it, but the Griz have one HELL of a red shirt recruiting class ready to contribute next year! That's how you build successful programs!!!

[SeeHarg]

Actually, I think #1 is recruiting, and then #2 = making sure you keep the tub of shedd's spread or butter off the receivers' table at the pre-game pancake feed. They're obviously using too much and not wiping it off their hands or something.

Cripes, I never seen so many passes slip outta guys' fingers in my life as I saw tonight. What's Lulay gotta do, make the catch for them too?

[Shakermaker]

Well, folks. What can I say?? The CATS are an average football /program team. Win some; lose some. Every once in a while they beat the griz. Rarely win a lot but have lost quite a few in the past 20 years.

We will remain average until someone decides that being good on paper or wait until next year is no longer satisfactory. Only consistently winning big games will erase the lable LOSER that we CATS have deservingly earned. Now hear me out Bobcat Brothers. The 1984 NC team was a a great year but really a strange anomally when compared to the next 20 years. Something is SYSTEMIC/ROOT CAUSE to MSU continually losing year in and year out no matter how much money and attention are directed to solving the problem. I think MSU just accepts losing and could care less about winning on a consistent basis. We like the cell bitch role. Just look at our winning percentage since the inception of MSU Football. YIKES!! Overall record against the jizz??? Forget about it!!

Americans hate a loser. So do all Montanans. So what's the answer to creating a consistently winning program (yeah, yeah, jizz fans pile on, but I dare say Uncle Denny's $$$$$ did more for your program then any other factor)?????????? I'll give the jizz credit though, they consistently win big games every year. We don't.

Someone tell me what is the solution to our woes. For all you rocket scientists out there, I know winning creates winning, but HOW do the CATS start a winning CULTURE and winning CHARACTER?? Thanks.

First off, I'm a Griz fan, and it is refreshing to see a gay wad such as yourself see the light, but having said that, you are the biggest bandwagon pole smoker with a side order of Jiz I have ever seen.

Peace... Griz #1

[SteelheadBum]

ShakerMaker is hereby appointed the #1 griz fan. What a great spokesman!!!! Here's to all griz fans enjoying your new spokesman. He's really cool or something..............

Shaker, I have been sending your posts to UM President Dennison and Coach Hauck so they can get a huge laugh. They love smart, highly successful Alums like you.

What say you Mr. Giese (GF Trib)?? You've been seeing his comments. Please print Shaker's comments for all Montanans to read. You know the griz faithful love Shaker. Makes for some great journalism and reading. GO SHAKERMAKER & GRIZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SteelheadBum]

Other than LSU, Ohio State, and to a much lesser extent Florida State & Virginia Tech., what other "Aggie" schools consistently beat their in-state rival.

I can't remember if it was ESPN or Sports Illustrated that conducted a study as to why "Aggie" schools can't consistently beat their in-state university rivals. They concluded that: 1.) Aggie schools are more math & science oriented therefore less appealing academically for the average football player. 2.) Most Aggie schools are in rural settings as compared to the in-state Liberal Arts university. Nightlife/entertainment is an important drawing for recruits. 3.) Aggie grads tend to give less $$$$$ back to their universities.

Maybe MSU being away from most of Montana's population as compare to UM coupled with the above conclusions is part of our systemic losing culture. Who knows??

[griz8791]

For God's sake, MSU does NOT have a "systemic losing culture." Dust yourselves off -- there's a big game this weekend.

[SteelheadBum]

DOES TOO!!!

I would think the overall CAT/griz record is enough to qualify as a Systemic Losing Problem for the Bobcats. Further proof includes our consistently poor performances against Cal Poly SLO & EWU. Check the records. Someone should calculate MSU's overall winning percentage since the inception of MSU Football. Is it much better than .500??? Not a systemic losing problem?!??!? Not really a systemic WINNING program either.

Anyway, here's hoping/wishing (we don't expect to win nor do we dictate a winning tradition) a big Bobcat win over the griz on Saturday. GO CATS!!

[SeeHarg]

Check the record of the UC Davis Aggies against their Causeway rivals.

Their rivals? Sacramento State.

[SteelheadBum]

Where does the UC Davis Aggies stand against USC, UCLA, CAL & Stanford??? Just wondering..........

[Sportin' Life]

That is interesting about the aggie thing. It got me thinking if there was anything to that?

Kansas St, Penn St, are other exceptions. Arizona St. Iowa St. and Mississippi St. seem to hold their own.

Some states don't have an aggie or tech school at all or has a really undersized one like: Wyoming, Nebraska, Connecticut, Arkansas, Minnesota, Illinois, Indiana, California, Alabama, West Virginia, Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, New Jersey, South Carolina, Rhode Island, Massachusets, Missouri, Tennessee, and Kentucky off the top of my head. I think that speaks more to how legislators in those states wanted to allocate education funds one hundred or more years ago. Those states, for whatever reason, thought one state school should be big, or there should only be one state school.

Is Boise St. the ag school in Idaho, or is it Idaho St?

[SteelheadBum]

True on some of the states you listed BUT.... Indiana State, Illinois State, Idaho State, Colorado State, Michigan State, New Mexico State, Utah State, Texas A&M, Oklahoma State, Missouri State, any California State vs any U of California whatitsname are all consistent losers to their instate rival. Also, Washington State & Oregon State. I believe Alabama vs Auburn is a close U vs State. I could be wrong on that though.

I realize some of the above STATE teams play in different leagues than their in-state UNIVERSITY bretheren but there is some reason why the University of "name the state" usually has a bigger, better program than the "name the State University."

Most (certainly not all) of State schools have losing records against their in-state University rival. Again, Why??? Just a strange coincidence??

[hokeyfine]

when was the last time the cats had four winning seasons in a row. i think if you did a little research you would see it's been a long time. how long has it been that we've been consitantly competitve? how long has it been since we've averaged over 12000 fans for several seasons in a row? i think everyone is suffering from griz envy. we didn't have a don read, so the program has to start somewhere. the ad made a mistake with lubick, with solomonson, etc. what you have now is consistancy. you can slam the program all you want with the "yah, consistantly losers" garbage. i still remember the days of sitting in dornblaser with 1000 people watching the griz get spanked by portland state. you seem to forget that the griz only became powers after the big three left(idaho,reno,boise). at this point i'd rather have consistancy than hysells up and down seasons. at least were not trying to get out of the cellar, we're almost at the top, trying to get over that hump. The griz program is a power, but their program is still not perfect,i.e. never won a road playoff game(not counting championship games). cheer up, it's still only a football game.