Running Game (Again)

BobcatLionFan · Post by **BobcatLionFan** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 12:25 pm

Born2BaGriz wrote:It is your OLine. Brant B. wouldn't start for any other teams in the Big Sky. Attached is my post after watching your spring scrimmage.

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:13 pm Post subject:

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I'll say it right now so you can mark it and come back to me in November if I'm wrong. The Cats will be sub 500 at best. I watched the scrimmage in Great Falls and they have problems on D and on the Oline. Go back to my pre-game assessment of the Griz/Cat game and you will see where I identified a weakness of Lulay for knocked down balls.

While the linebacking corp is strong, the Cats will have to score a lot to win games this year because their going to be in some track meets.

Personally, I'm more worried about our own backyard. While our OLine looks to be good, we have a lot of unresolved issues on O, and while I like Paulson, we could have a Ron Richards situation on the D.

Well, it takes a big Man to remind everyone that he is wrong. Cats will not be under 500 "at best"?. If they win Friday against a weak Sac State they will be 6-5 at worst and very possibly 8-3.

Also, Lulay has not had a problem with having the ball knocked down, Especially compared with other QBs. Just not happening. The OL does not have a problem (especially pass blocking), but then you didn't say they had one back then reading your post. Lulay has consistently more time to pass than the other QB they are playing (and that's agaist our pass rush which isn't great).

Born2BaGriz · Post by **Born2BaGriz** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 12:44 pm

BobcatLionFan wrote:
Born2BaGriz wrote:It is your OLine. Brant B. wouldn't start for any other teams in the Big Sky. Attached is my post after watching your spring scrimmage.

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:13 pm Post subject:

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I'll say it right now so you can mark it and come back to me in November if I'm wrong. The Cats will be sub 500 at best. I watched the scrimmage in Great Falls and they have problems on D and on the Oline. Go back to my pre-game assessment of the Griz/Cat game and you will see where I identified a weakness of Lulay for knocked down balls.

While the linebacking corp is strong, the Cats will have to score a lot to win games this year because their going to be in some track meets.

Personally, I'm more worried about our own backyard. While our OLine looks to be good, we have a lot of unresolved issues on O, and while I like Paulson, we could have a Ron Richards situation on the D.
Well, it takes a big Man to remind everyone that he is wrong. Cats will not be under 500 "at best"?. If they win Friday against a weak Sac State they will be 6-5 at worst and very possibly 8-3.

Also, Lulay has not had a problem with having the ball knocked down, Especially compared with other QBs. Just not happening. The OL does not have a problem (especially pass blocking), but then you didn't say they had one back then reading your post. Lulay has consistently more time to pass than the other QB they are playing (and that's agaist our pass rush which isn't great).

I haven't seen enough Cat games to say that tipped passes are a problem, but the point was that after watching your spring scrimage I indentified the OLine as a problem area. If you look at three areas which one could use to judge an OLine it would be sacks against, rushing, and passing.

The Cats are having given up the second most sacks in the conference with 22. You rank 6th in rushing. If you wanted to go even further with that given Lulay is your leading rusher, you could say but for his talent, there would be even more sacks. You are currently second in the conference in passing, but EWU leads you in both passing and rushing.

In regards to having more time, that would be subjective as the Cats have the least amount of sacks in the conference and given that you just played the only team that given up more sacks a game then you, I would have to disagree with your thought.

Oh and so you don't have to look it up for yourself, the Griz are middle of the pack in both sacks by and sacks against but we are second in the converence is rushing, seventh in passing, and right behind you in total offense.

Hello Kitty · Post by **Hello Kitty** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 12:52 pm

On the kickoff following the saftie Kramer should have told his players that it was free kick. Once the ball went 10 yards the kickoff team is able to recover the kick. The players were obviously confused about this rule, because they appeared to have treated the kick like a punt. The hesitations cause the Cats to lose a possession. It was a poorly executed play.

El_Gato · Post by **El_Gato** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:04 pm

Amen, HK.

The fact that our return guys hesitated showed clearly that they didn't understand it was a live ball and that is inexcusable at this level of play. I also wonder if any of our crew knows they can fair catch ANY kick?

CelticCat · Post by **CelticCat** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:20 pm

El_Gato wrote:Amen, HK.

The fact that our return guys hesitated showed clearly that they didn't understand it was a live ball and that is inexcusable at this level of play. I also wonder if any of our crew knows they can fair catch ANY kick?

Me and my friend got into a huge fight about that. I said you can fair catch anything, and he disagreed with me.

BobcatLionFan · Post by **BobcatLionFan** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:30 pm

Hello Kitty wrote:On the kickoff following the saftie Kramer should have told his players that it was free kick. Once the ball went 10 yards the kickoff team is able to recover the kick. The players were obviously confused about this rule, because they appeared to have treated the kick like a punt. The hesitations cause the Cats to lose a possession. It was a poorly executed play.

I don't know if this is true, that it is a live ball. When you punt the ball, the 10 yard rule does not apply. because it is easier to kick an on-side with the punt, you can kick it high and have your guys there or you can kick with top spin. So I believe there is a rule in the safety area that if you punt it, it is like a real punt. You could always tie it up if you want to on-side with the 10 yard rule after a safety.

So there might be more confusion in the stands, as well as on the field???

Bleedinbluengold · Post by **Bleedinbluengold** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:33 pm

barechestcat wrote:
spider wrote:The reason that there is no pulling etc. is because the Cats run a zone blocking scheme. For those of you who don't know about it read this:

from football outsiders

ZONE BLOCKING
For those of you unfamiliar with the Denver offensive line scheme, they use a technique known as "zone blocking". In a "man" or "drive" blocking scheme the lineman is responsible for an individual, and the play is designed for a running back to hit a particular gap. The zone blocking scheme, on the other hand, has a lineman blocking an area instead of a designated defensive player. If multiple linemen are blocking an area than one can break off and block into the second level.

The offensive line typically moves as a unit laterally, and the result of their blocks should create some natural seams or gaps in the defensive formation. The running back is responsible for finding a hole, making a cut, and then running upfield. One of the key tenets of the Denver system is that the running back takes what he can get — he should never dance around waiting for a hole to open. He needs to be agile, authoritative, and possess good instincts. Nothing fancy, just try to gain positive yardage.

A final element of the zone blocking scheme is the use of the much hated cut block to seal off backside pursuit. This means that any linemen on the backside of the play cut block defensive players in front of them, which drops the defensive players to the turf and, oddly enough, opens up holes for the running back. Note that the cut block is legal in this case, as long as the offensive lineman isn’t hitting the defender from behind and as long as he doesn’t roll up on his legs. But hitting him below the knees near the line of scrimmage is fair game, as much as the NFLPA doesn’t want it to be.

Obviously getting defenders on the ground is one benefit of the cut block, but an intangible benefit is that defenders start worrying about their knees and ankles. They lose a bit of their aggression and speed since they’re paranoid that some lineman is going to creep up on them and take out their legs. This has the benefit of slowing down the entire defense.
spider I definitely saw this blocking style on Saturday. For me, all this means is that I have a name for what I don't like. The end result on Saturday for our run plays was that the entire line of scrimmage (offensive and defensive) moved laterally and the plays were stopped with 0-2 yards gained. I definitely have a problem with this blocking scheme. If you are not drive blocking people and/or walling them off they simply string the play out to the sideline (12th man).

Indeed - The reason the Broncos can pull this off is because their O Lineman are FAST and EXPLOSIVE. Maybe one of our guys fits that description. This is where coaching comes in. You have to understand your team's abilities and coach to those strengths. I don't think we've done a good job of coaching to our offensive line's strengths. Almost like we're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole when it comes to rushing.

El_Gato · Post by **El_Gato** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:33 pm

BobcatLionFan wrote:...So there might be more confusion in the stands, as well as on the field???

The difference being that the coaches & players are being paid TO KNOW the rules, while fans pay to watch. See the difference?

BobcatLionFan · Post by **BobcatLionFan** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:40 pm

Born2BaGriz wrote: I haven't seen enough Cat games to say that tipped passes are a problem, but the point was that after watching your spring scrimage I indentified the OLine as a problem area.

Oh and so you don't have to look it up for yourself, the Griz are middle of the pack in both sacks by and sacks against but we are second in the converence is rushing, seventh in passing, and right behind you in total offense.

I don't see in your post that you identified the OL as a major problem area. Only thing I saw was balls tipped and MSU being below 500 at the best. Neither of which is true. Possibly it was in another post that you can share again.

On your last point, I really don't care about what the Griz does, other than actually against PSU (which I was rooting for UM to win so PSU had two losses) and in the last game. Could care less how they do otherwise. But it's good you are watching the Bobcats closely. Shows you do care and that is nice.

As for the stats, hard to compare. When you have a pure passing team (and we are not running) there will be more plays to get sacks on and your run placement in the league is down. So you need to actually look at sacks per pass play average and how the teams rank in total offense. I'll leave that to you to get numbers on and report back.

BobcatLionFan · Post by **BobcatLionFan** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 2:53 pm

El_Gato wrote:
BobcatLionFan wrote:...So there might be more confusion in the stands, as well as on the field???

The difference being that the coaches & players are being paid TO KNOW the rules, while fans pay to watch. See the difference?

Totally agree. Coaches probably knew it was not a live ball.
There seemed to be a problem with the 4 players around the ball that were being paided to know (which could likewise be a coaching thing in preparing them to know).

The NAU kicker was very good in kicking into the wind on that sideline on both punts and kickoffs with high kicks that the wind blew back in and away from the receiver. I thought we were going to lose a kick off once also with the same high kick that was not caught immediately.

Hello Kitty · Post by **Hello Kitty** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:01 pm

So there might be more confusion in the stands, as well as on the field???

Nope. I am not confused

Born2BaGriz · Post by **Born2BaGriz** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:11 pm

BobcatLionFan wrote:
Born2BaGriz wrote: I haven't seen enough Cat games to say that tipped passes are a problem, but the point was that after watching your spring scrimage I indentified the OLine as a problem area.

Oh and so you don't have to look it up for yourself, the Griz are middle of the pack in both sacks by and sacks against but we are second in the converence is rushing, seventh in passing, and right behind you in total offense.
I don't see in your post that you identified the OL as a major problem area. Only thing I saw was balls tipped and MSU being below 500 at the best. Neither of which is true. Possibly it was in another post that you can share again.

On your last point, I really don't care about what the Griz does, other than actually against PSU (which I was rooting for UM to win so PSU had two losses) and in the last game. Could care less how they do otherwise. But it's good you are watching the Bobcats closely. Shows you do care and that is nice.

As for the stats, hard to compare. When you have a pure passing team (and we are not running) there will be more plays to get sacks on and your run placement in the league is down. So you need to actually look at sacks per pass play average and how the teams rank in total offense. I'll leave that to you to get numbers on and report back.

I just a football fan and like to scope the other teams. And in regards to your sack comments, there is a difference between being a passing team and having having to pass because you don't have a running game. While with Travis at the helm, one can see why you would have a pass first offense, but you lack of production at the running game has more to do with the inability to block then a desire not to run at all. Spin it how you will. But I won;t do it now, but I will provide you with a sack per passing attempt for your edification. However, I would say that when your QB is your leading rusher, you are second in the league in sacks against, and near the bottom in rushing that you have an OLine problem.

mquast53000 · Post by **mquast53000** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:29 pm

BobcatLionFan wrote:
Hello Kitty wrote:On the kickoff following the saftie Kramer should have told his players that it was free kick. Once the ball went 10 yards the kickoff team is able to recover the kick. The players were obviously confused about this rule, because they appeared to have treated the kick like a punt. The hesitations cause the Cats to lose a possession. It was a poorly executed play.
I don't know if this is true, that it is a live ball. When you punt the ball, the 10 yard rule does not apply. because it is easier to kick an on-side with the punt, you can kick it high and have your guys there or you can kick with top spin. So I believe there is a rule in the safety area that if you punt it, it is like a real punt. You could always tie it up if you want to on-side with the 10 yard rule after a safety.

So there might be more confusion in the stands, as well as on the field???

BobcatLionFan- Hate to break it to you, but you are indeed the confused one. HK is right. You could sky the kick, but then the Cats would just have to fair catch it (you can always fair catch ANY kick). You like the Cats return team need to freshen up on your rules.

Bleedinbluengold · Post by **Bleedinbluengold** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:54 pm

But, if you call FC, you have to catch the ball. If you let it touch the ground, then the ball can still be recovered by the kicking team as long as it advanced 10 yards.

mquast53000 · Post by **mquast53000** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:04 pm

Bleedinbluengold wrote:But, if you call FC, you have to catch the ball. If you let it touch the ground, then the ball can still be recovered by the kicking team as long as it advanced 10 yards.

Just like HK said, and like I reaffirmed... What is you point?

Also, keep in mind that skying a kick after a saftie that is only going to go roughly 10 yards is pretty tough and risky (if the team does fair catch it they have great field position).

Bleedinbluengold · Post by **Bleedinbluengold** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:14 pm

My only point was that even if you call FC, you have to not let the ball hit the ground...that's all. You can't call FC, and simply not field the kick. The only time that would work is if the kicking team didn't cover the ball. The refs will eventually call a dead ball and the receiving team will get the ball at that spot...phew - sorry for the long winded reply.

As you know, conceivably, at Sales, it could happen where you kick the ball 10 yards way high in the air and have it come straight back into your face. I haven't seen it, personally, but I know it could happen.

grizzh8r · Post by **grizzh8r** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:30 am

spider wrote:One of the key tenets of the Denver system is that the running back takes what he can get — he should never dance around waiting for a hole to open. He needs to be agile, authoritative, and possess good instincts. Nothing fancy, just try to gain positive yardage.

This is EXACTLY what we lack. A Ryan Johnson type of runner. A runner who will hit the hole, no matter how small it may be, and get some positive yards out of the play. JD has shown flashes of this type of back; see ISU and late in the game vs. NAU. If he would make a committment to hit a hole hard, and Kramer would get him more than 15 touches a game, we would have a more effective running game, IMHO.

Groves could be this type of back, but the fumbling thing isn't good. Kramer spoke about this in the postgame radio interview w/ Atterbury. Kramer said his mom told him during spring practice that "that Groves is a fumbler"

or something close to that. Just my 2 cents.

CelticCat · Post by **CelticCat** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:46 pm

While having a RJ type runner would be great, I'd be satisfied with Bruce Molock runner. That guy just ran downhill, nothing fance, and it worked.

grizsuck24 · Post by **grizsuck24** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:07 pm

did everyone forget about groves, I know he messed up sat. but it was the best run of the game on his first carry and he played very well the week before.

CARDIAC_CATS · Post by **CARDIAC_CATS** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:18 pm

grizsuck24 wrote:did everyone forget about groves, I know he messed up sat. but it was the best run of the game on his first carry and he played very well the week before.

I know we have been doing the RB coaching carousel, but I would like to see a game where Groves gets 10 carries. I know JD does things very well out there too and so does BASS (when he is healthy), but we are in crunch time people and the RB"s have had a chance to show what they bring to the table. Groves has shown the most EXPLOSION ability out of the 3 and I think it is time that he gets at least 50% of the RB carries now. He has earned that right and has been in the offense long enough to know what is going on etc. This kid can break to outside very fast as well as pop through the hole and make the first guy miss. Just tuck it away Groves (although that didn't look like a fumble on the replay) and RUN! I dont' want to get a controversy going on this as I like all our RB's (they have their all unique attributes as well). But we need to get YARDS RUSHING in these last 2-3 game and take some pressure off of the passing game. Groves is the guy that can do the job in my opinion. If anythign give him split carries. Another positive feature of utilizing Groves is that he needs all the experience he can get for next year. We are going to be relying on him. It is time to see what this kid can do.