Serious Question about Kramer's future!

grzh8r · Post by **grzh8r** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:57 pm

tampa_griz wrote: I've heard the charge before that Hauck didn't accept defeat to the Cats nor respects their program. I'm not saying it didn't happen but what exactly was said/transpired that justifies this charge? Like I said, may be true and correct but I haven't seen it.

tampa... here's one thing that Hauck said early on in his career at UM and I think things escalated from there.

Sports Network: You're from Big Timber, which is Montana State territory. Did you ever have an allegiance to the dreaded Bobcats?

Hauck: No, I'm like a fourth-generation Montana Grizzly, so it was early and often that we were Grizzly fans, and I really loved that school from the time I was a little kid until now. My first college football memory was being in the stadium in Bozeman cheering for whoever [Montana State was] playing.

here's the link to the entire interview...
http://www.sportsnetwork.com/default.as ... 011503.htm

GrizinWashington · Post by **GrizinWashington** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:15 pm

grzh8r wrote:
tampa_griz wrote: I've heard the charge before that Hauck didn't accept defeat to the Cats nor respects their program. I'm not saying it didn't happen but what exactly was said/transpired that justifies this charge? Like I said, may be true and correct but I haven't seen it.
tampa... here's one thing that Hauck said early on in his career at UM and I think things escalated from there.

Sports Network: You're from Big Timber, which is Montana State territory. Did you ever have an allegiance to the dreaded Bobcats?

Hauck: No, I'm like a fourth-generation Montana Grizzly, so it was early and often that we were Grizzly fans, and I really loved that school from the time I was a little kid until now. My first college football memory was being in the stadium in Bozeman cheering for whoever [Montana State was] playing.

here's the link to the entire interview...
http://www.sportsnetwork.com/default.as ... 011503.htm

H8r, how is this different than ANY cat or Griz fan? Review the posts on this board and you'll find 90% of the people on here always root against the Grizzlies, even if the Griz winning would help msu. So, BH is a bad guy because he's honest??

GrizinWashington · Post by **GrizinWashington** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:21 pm

El_Gato wrote:GrizinWa,

There may have been the occassional close game, but how many times have we heard griz fans bash Lulay's career #'s because of ALL THE TIMES Dickinson was on the bench after halftime? To listen to many of you, you'd think the Griz won every game by 40 so yes, that does cloud my memories of the 90's Griz. I totally agree with you, though, that those teams were offense-oriented as opposed to what Glenn started and Bobby has continued with tough defensive teams. I do have another question for you: Did Bobby come in as an O or D strategy guy? In other words, did he come to Missoula touting one side of the ball over the other? I don't recall him doing so but maybe some of you closer to the program do. I bring it up because I always laugh about Brian Billick in the NFL; he went to Baltimore as this supposed offensive genius yet his teams historically have been pretty poor offensively and won a Super Bowl because of a great defense.

The bottom line is that in my book, Bobby needs to either continue his winning ways another 3+ years with the Griz or move up and turn around a DI program in order to earn the accolades so many griz fans are already lauding on him. I'll also add here that I won't label Kramer as a great coach yet but I will say he's been great for MSU football & MSU athletics overall...

I'm not saying Bobby's a bad coach but I am saying he's not proven anything other than he is capable of taking a well-oiled machine and not mucking it up. To be considered a good or even great coach he either needs to win a I-AA title or two OR go to a bad DI program & turn them around, like Read did when he took over the Griz...

I would say the vast majority of BH's experience came on defense and of course special teams. At UW, he coached safetys and special teams. At Colorado he coached LBs and special teams, and I believe at NAU he was on the D side as well (but don't hold me to that).

Personally, I have all the respect in the world for Krames and what he's done at msu. But to suggest that someone needs to win a NC to be considered a great coach? Uh uh. The hall of fame is filled with guys who never sniffed a NC.

grzh8r · Post by **grzh8r** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:48 pm

GrizinWashington wrote:

H8r, how is this different than ANY cat or Griz fan? Review the posts on this board and you'll find 90% of the people on here always root against the Grizzlies, even if the Griz winning would help msu. So, BH is a bad guy because he's honest??

Griz... lighten up! Don't get your panties in a wad! Tampa said he'd heard but never seen proof of Hauck disparaging the Cats.... I just posted a quote that reflected that, plain and simple. I didn't make any other disparaging comments about Hauck or "quote" things I'd only heard about but can't verify.

El_Gato · Post by **El_Gato** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:49 pm

GrizinWashington wrote:...The hall of fame is filled with guys who never sniffed a NC.

Filled?

Doubtful.

Besides, I'm pretty sure Bobby's not a candidate for ANY hall of fame anytime soon, with the possible exception of the one in Big Timber.

I'm simply saying that IF Bobby stays, I would think you griz fans would expect him to play for and win a championship or two in the coming years. If he continues to win 9+ games per year and makes another few runs deep into the playoffs, I'll give him the credit he deserves. Right now, I'd still say the Griz tradition is responsible for more of his success than he is personally; remember, he's only 1-2 versus the Cats and has lost 2 first round playoff games at home.

If he goes DI and turns around a bad program, gets them into & wins some bowl games, my opinion of his coaching acumen will change.

But Bobby Hauck, hall of famer (at any national level) is something I'm willing to bet against.

GrizinWashington · Post by **GrizinWashington** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:13 pm

El_Gato wrote:
GrizinWashington wrote:...The hall of fame is filled with guys who never sniffed a NC.
Filled?

Doubtful.

Besides, I'm pretty sure Bobby's not a candidate for ANY hall of fame anytime soon, with the possible exception of the one in Big Timber.

I'm simply saying that IF Bobby stays, I would think you griz fans would expect him to play for and win a championship or two in the coming years. If he continues to win 9+ games per year and makes another few runs deep into the playoffs, I'll give him the credit he deserves. Right now, I'd still say the Griz tradition is responsible for more of his success than he is personally; remember, he's only 1-2 versus the Cats and has lost 2 first round playoff games at home.

If he goes DI and turns around a bad program, gets them into & wins some bowl games, my opinion of his coaching acumen will change.

But Bobby Hauck, hall of famer (at any national level) is something I'm willing to bet against.

Gato, at no time did I say BH was going to any hall of fame. I just think that your criteria that a coach has to win a NC to be considered great is waaaay off base. Now, your point about that being the expectation at Montana is certainly valid, and I think that speaks volumes about the level that program has attained. However, if BH never wins a NC, I wouldn't consider him a poor coach. If it were easy, everyone would do it.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:06 am

Robcat wrote:Without a doubt, we will keep the Big Human.

How funny is that -- after Chadron and UC Davis you guys were ready to cut him loose midseason.

And you even TRY to call Griz fans bandwagoners.

liqud360 · Post by **liqud360** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:50 am

Nick wrote:
Robcat wrote:Without a doubt, we will keep the Big Human.
How funny is that -- after Chadron and UC Davis you guys were ready to cut him loose midseason.

And you even TRY to call Griz fans bandwagoners.

Carefull now nick, your including all in BN with that statment. Think before you post next time.

tampa_griz · Post by **tampa_griz** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:21 am

grzh8r wrote:tampa... here's one thing that Hauck said early on in his career at UM and I think things escalated from there.

Sports Network: You're from Big Timber, which is Montana State territory. Did you ever have an allegiance to the dreaded Bobcats?

Hauck: No, I'm like a fourth-generation Montana Grizzly, so it was early and often that we were Grizzly fans, and I really loved that school from the time I was a little kid until now. My first college football memory was being in the stadium in Bozeman cheering for whoever [Montana State was] playing.

here's the link to the entire interview...
http://www.sportsnetwork.com/default.as ... 011503.htm

Well to be fair he was talking about his college days. I remember having the same attitude while I was at UM. I've grown up a little since then and now I usually go for the Cats if they're not playing us.....unless a Cat loss helps the Griz in some fashion. I don't think that interview proves he doesn't respect MSU today. Nothing more than a typical obnoxious college attitude.

Wasn't there a claim that BH has never accepted defeat to the Cats as a coach? Did he say something along the lines of "We're still better" or "They got lucky" after a loss to MSU.....? And again I'm not saying he hasn't......just that I've never seen it.

And I also remember a Billings Gazette article that came out just before our game with Marshall in '95. A lot of the Cat fans they interviewed said they'd be cheering for Marshall. There was also a ding-dong cheering every time NAU scored against us in our regular NAU game-day thread. Neither case is reflective of all Cat fans.

Eastcoastgriz · Post by **Eastcoastgriz** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:51 am

grzh8r wrote:
GrizinWashington wrote:

H8r, how is this different than ANY cat or Griz fan? Review the posts on this board and you'll find 90% of the people on here always root against the Grizzlies, even if the Griz winning would help msu. So, BH is a bad guy because he's honest??
Griz... lighten up! Don't get your panties in a wad! Tampa said he'd heard but never seen proof of Hauck disparaging the Cats.... I just posted a quote that reflected that, plain and simple. I didn't make any other disparaging comments about Hauck or "quote" things I'd only heard about but can't verify.

Rooting against does not = disparaging

tampa_griz · Post by **tampa_griz** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:22 am

tampa_griz wrote:
grzh8r wrote:tampa... here's one thing that Hauck said early on in his career at UM and I think things escalated from there.

Sports Network: You're from Big Timber, which is Montana State territory. Did you ever have an allegiance to the dreaded Bobcats?

Hauck: No, I'm like a fourth-generation Montana Grizzly, so it was early and often that we were Grizzly fans, and I really loved that school from the time I was a little kid until now. My first college football memory was being in the stadium in Bozeman cheering for whoever [Montana State was] playing.

here's the link to the entire interview...
http://www.sportsnetwork.com/default.as ... 011503.htm
Well to be fair he was talking about his college days. I remember having the same attitude while I was at UM. I've grown up a little since then and now I usually go for the Cats if they're not playing us.....unless a Cat loss helps the Griz in some fashion. I don't think that interview proves he doesn't respect MSU today. Nothing more than a typical obnoxious college attitude.

Wasn't there a claim that BH has never accepted defeat to the Cats as a coach? Did he say something along the lines of "We're still better" or "They got lucky" after a loss to MSU.....? And again I'm not saying he hasn't......just that I've never seen it.

And I also remember a Billings Gazette article that came out just before our game with Marshall in '95. A lot of the Cat fans they interviewed said they'd be cheering for Marshall. There was also a ding-dong cheering every time NAU scored against us in our regular NAU game-day thread. Neither case is reflective of all Cat fans.

Actually as I re-read BH's statement it reads that his first college football memory was rooting agaisnt MSU.....which probably means he wasn't in college during his first college memory......but that in fact he was probably a child. Either way I'm not sure that implies he doesn't respect MSU football now.

catsrback76 · Post by **catsrback76** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:23 am

Cledus wrote:I think he asks legitimate questions.

I think Kramer's done a fantastic job of turning around the season. HOWEVER, why does it have to be this way year in and year out?

I think it's a waste that the incredible talent running through Bozeman each year ultimately winds up being squandered on a 6-5 or 7-4 season. It's not fair to the players who chose the Cats over any other team because they believed in Kramer and his system. It's not fair to the loyal fans who've endured these letdowns time after time and continue to support the coaching staff.

Yes, the mistakes were made early on and seem to have been corrected, for the most part (the roll punt seems to have been addressed in numerous other threads). HOWEVER, there are numerous other teams in every division of college football with high expectations that did not have one foot in the grave after week 4 for failing to live up to expectations; think Ohio State, Michigan, the Fizzlies, Carroll, etc. There are numerous teams that can put away an opponent in the third quarter.

I have a great deal of respect for Kramer after suspending LeBlanc for violating team rules (or whatever he did). That's got to be a bitter pill to swallow knowing how badly LeBlanc is needed on the field over this crucial stretch of games late in the season. I think Kramer showed a great deal of integrity and should be praised for setting an example and a high standard. HOWEVER, the ultimate barometer is results, which is an area that has been lacking.

Cledus, I have to wonder about all the wonderful talent running around Bozeman and where they came from. Why are they running around Bozeman in the first place? Sure you and I love the town, but most of these kids simply would not be here unless Kramer were here!!!

Take our own beloved Travis Lulay and the company around him who lifted this program out of the doldrums. Travis graduated with something like 3.8 gpa, played football at MSU and is going to NFL Europe in the winter. He is a smart kid that can clearly make good decisions. He stayed, ( they stayed) and played at MSU because of Kramer. Kramer, inspite of his W's and L's is a magnet for the talent that is here. He is doing an excellent job recruiting and maintaining the talent he brings in. He also is doing a stellar job of coaching IMO with this being his best year so far. After the 3 game debacle, he changed the defense, changed the QB, and leveled the ship. We now have a chance to win out and take the League title once again and play in the off season. What more can you want from The Big Human?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:33 pm

liqud360 wrote:
Nick wrote:
Robcat wrote:Without a doubt, we will keep the Big Human.
How funny is that -- after Chadron and UC Davis you guys were ready to cut him loose midseason.

And you even TRY to call Griz fans bandwagoners.
Carefull now nick, your including all in BN with that statment. Think before you post next time.

Wow a little touchy are we. Well I sure didn't see many pro-Kramer posts at that time, did you?

Cledus · Post by **Cledus** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:31 pm

I spearheaded a lot of the Kramer posts with negative tones.

Believe me when I tell you there are a lot more people who are loyal to Kramer than those who disapprove of his performance as I found out by the numerous posts lambasting me, disagreeing with me, calling me a loser with no friends, etc.

BobCatFan · Post by **BobCatFan** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:38 pm

I have posted negative things about Kramer too. Like his poor special teams. To much loyality to Bailey. Would I fire him over this. Not yet. Sign him for 3 more years.

The Butcher · Post by **The Butcher** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:45 pm

BobCatFan wrote:I have posted negative things about Kramer too. Like his poor special teams. To much loyality to Bailey. Would I fire him over this. Not yet. Sign him for 3 more years.

I certainly don't want to see Kramer fired, but I don't think I would want him signed to a 3 year contract either.

Weltercat · Post by **Weltercat** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:38 pm

I remember when Bobby Hauck left the UW. The Washington Alum and boosters had mixed feelings about him leaving. The common consensus was that Coach Hauck was a very good recruiter but a terrible coach. The Washington db's got lit up by everyone in the Pac 10 when he was coach. After seeing him at the helm in Missoula I agree with this analysis.

About Coach Kramer, I see him as a similar coach. I love the recruits he gets. I wish he would comb Montana a little harder and win that battle but he does a great job getting talent. I think his coaching ability is weak but for the price we pay, and the expectations we have, it looks like he's the best we can do for now.