Griz host South Dakota State.....

[onceacat]

Sdsu is a tough match up for them. They're the type of team they had given the Griz fits this year.

One with a defense???


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No, they've beaten teams with very good defenses (NDSU, ND). But teams with good defenses and a straight ahead power run game have made them look mediocre.

I disagree with UND being classified as a very good defense. But I would add that SDSU has incredible balance. Zach Lujan is one of the most efficient QBs in football, and Jake Weineke would start at WR on every single team in the Big Sky. Yes, including EWU.

SDSU is actaully a lot less effective running the ball than they were with Zenner, but they still put up 55 on Southern Utah.

[GetEm_Griz]

Sdsu is a tough match up for them. They're the type of team they had given the Griz fits this year.

One with a defense???


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, they've beaten teams with very good defenses (NDSU, ND). But teams with good defenses and a straight ahead power run game have made them look mediocre.

No, South Dakota State didn't beat NDSU. Montana beat both those teams (NDSU, UND).

[aucat]

I understand the reluctance of pulling for the Griz because frankly the "Brawl of the Wild" rivalry is a complete joke. I have said this before but if anyone invested the
time to research the record books of all the similar intra-state rivalry games around the country, I would be shocked if any state came anywhere near the state of Montana.
And not just in football but BOTH football and basketball. If the rivalry was more balanced and MSU enjoyed whipping the Griz 50% of the time in football and hoops, instead
of the current 4% (just a guess), then yes it would be easy to pull for the Griz when the Cats don't make the playoffs.

Having said all that, maybe I was just in a good part of the stadium yesterday, but all the Griz fans around me were good respectful fans and sports and that's the way it
really ought to be. The Griz fans around me didn't even seem all that excited. It was after all what they are completely accustomed to. Ho Hum. I came away from the game,
not hating the Griz, but just shaking my head that we have such an outstanding university in Montana State yet it cannot
compete with the U. of Montana in athletics. And frankly, UM is going through a terribly difficult period right now since it is more of a liberal arts institution, and their
enrollment is dropping, funding is decreasing, and positions are being cut. I'm not saying liberal arts are not important, but it is tough to get a good job with those kind
of degrees compared to many of the degrees MSU offers. But if you want to excel in athletics, I don't guess we match up. Hard to figure why. I think UM could hire
a used car salesman from a Missoula dealership as their football coach and they would still whip MSU.

[onceacat]

I understand the reluctance of pulling for the Griz because frankly the "Brawl of the Wild" rivalry is a complete joke. I have said this before but if anyone invested the
time to research the record books of all the similar intra-state rivalry games around the country, I would be shocked if any state came anywhere near the state of Montana.
And not just in football but BOTH football and basketball. If the rivalry was more balanced and MSU enjoyed whipping the Griz 50% of the time in football and hoops, instead
of the current 4% (just a guess), then yes it would be easy to pull for the Griz when the Cats don't make the playoffs.

Having said all that, maybe I was just in a good part of the stadium yesterday, but all the Griz fans around me were good respectful fans and sports and that's the way it
really ought to be. The Griz fans around me didn't even seem all that excited. It was after all what they are completely accustomed to. Ho Hum. I came away from the game,
not hating the Griz, but just shaking my head that we have such an outstanding university in Montana State yet it cannot
compete with the U. of Montana in athletics. And frankly, UM is going through a terribly difficult period right now since it is more of a liberal arts institution, and their
enrollment is dropping, funding is decreasing, and positions are being cut. I'm not saying liberal arts are not important, but it is tough to get a good job with those kind
of degrees compared to many of the degrees MSU offers. But if you want to excel in athletics, I don't guess we match up. Hard to figure why. I think UM could hire
a used car salesman from a Missoula dealership as their football coach and they would still whip MSU.

I've posted before (last year and earlier in this season): there's a ton of research that OK teams that fire their coaches rarely improve. Successful teams are far more than a coach: Its the athletic department, its a structural advantage in recruiting/faciliites, its a deep seated culture of winning. 80-90% of head coaches are exactly the same. The go to the same clinics, live and die by the same conventional wisdom, come from the same "family trees", and so on and so forth. Head coaches at a given level (with a few exceptions) are interchangeable. That's why Bobby Hauck and Joe Glenn are amazing coaches in Missoula and horrible in FBS, its why 4 different Griz coaches get the exact same result over the last decade (and for 20 years before that, if we are being truthful) in Cat-Griz.

Likewise, bad teams continue to be bad, regardless of who coaches them. If Urban Mayer went to New Mexico State, it wouldn't amount to a hill of beans. A good coach is the difference between a bubble team and a playoff team, or an elite team and a championship team. Not the difference between a ho-hum team and a championship team.

Not to say that Ash should stay, or we should just keep on keeping on, but to think that changing coaches is going to change the results is pretty wishful thinking.

[aucat]

You make a very good point, but I have occasionally seen coaches go into a situation and completely turn the thing around. Florida basketball was a joke until Billy Donovan showed up. Florida football was very average until Steve
spurrier came. Auburn was way down and had lost about 10 in a row to Alabama (a very similar rivalry situation to MSU-UM by the way), and Pat Dye
came in and completely turned that rivalry around. You mentioned Meyer--OSU was really struggling until he came.
Same with Michigan but look at the difference now under Jim Harbaugh.

Alabama was really struggling and had lost six in a row to Auburn, then along comes Nick Saban now look.

I hear you about the culture and leadership. However, I was under the impression that President Cruzado did not want MSU to be second fiddle to UM
in ANYTHING. So I don't know. Some are complaining about our stadium, but since we got the new end zone I think it is great. Sure, it could use some
refurbishing, but it is a great football environment now and good capacity. I love the basketball arena now also.

So I just don't know what the answer is. I would agree completely with you if we were talking about this 15 years ago, but I don't see the disparity that
great now. Maybe a truly energetic, fired up new head coach WOULD get this thing turned around. It takes A LOT of energy, passion and commitment--
from recruiting to having the team completely ready to play each game.

[onceacat]

You make a very good point, but I have occasionally seen coaches go into a situation and completely turn the thing around. Florida basketball was a joke until Billy Donovan showed up. Florida football was very average until Steve
spurrier came. Auburn was way down and had lost about 10 in a row to Alabama (a very similar rivalry situation to MSU-UM by the way), and Pat Dye
came in and completely turned that rivalry around. You mentioned Meyer--OSU was really struggling until he came.
Same with Michigan but look at the difference now under Jim Harbaugh.

Alabama was really struggling and had lost six in a row to Auburn, then along comes Nick Saban now look.

I hear you about the culture and leadership. However, I was under the impression that President Cruzado did not want MSU to be second fiddle to UM
in ANYTHING. So I don't know. Some are complaining about our stadium, but since we got the new end zone I think it is great. Sure, it could use some
refurbishing, but it is a great football environment now and good capacity. I love the basketball arena now also.

So I just don't know what the answer is. I would agree completely with you if we were talking about this 15 years ago, but I don't see the disparity that
great now. Maybe a truly energetic, fired up new head coach WOULD get this thing turned around. It takes A LOT of energy, passion and commitment--
from recruiting to having the team completely ready to play each game.

I get your point. But, Saban and Meyer took over highly successful programs (Bama was 22-15 in the 4 years before Saban was hired, Ohio St made something like 6 or 8 consecutive Rose/Fiesta/Championship games under Tressel). Top tier programs that a HOF coach took the the championships.

The 49s fired Harbaugh after an 8-8 season-How did that work out?

I think you can make a better case for Urban Meyers transformation of Utah into the best team in the country in 2004 as an example of what a great coach can do.

But that highlights the problem facing the Cats: How do you find an Urban Meyer to take over? Its not like those guys are just hanging out looking for jobs. Matter of fact, anyone who we really want to replace Ash has probably already headed to the lower tiers of FCS football. Its really hard to find that sort of elite coach to take over a football team in a (relative) backwater like Bozeman for $150k, especially when they can earn double that as a position coach in the Mountain West.

Again, not to say that Ash hasn't worn out his welcome, but look at the short list of candidates for the Griz job last year. Think about it this way: would you take Ash, Stitt, or Hauck. Those might be our best choices.

[77matcat]

Aucat.

You must be about 15. Please don't go spreading crap around that the griz have always owned MSU. Just isn't true unless you only remember the last thirty years.

Before the Cats and griz moved to the BigSky they played at different levels. griz victories were like them beating Tech. Impressive the Cats won any of those games. The first 30 years of the BigSky Cats dominated the rivalry. Those are the years I recall.

In steps Dennis and the sixteen year griz run. The last 30 years have been dominated by griz.

If we can pull our heads out I'm kinda hoping the next thirty years can be Cat years.




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[aucat]

Unfortunately, if our history of being even with the Griz goes ten years before current members of our teams WERE BORN, that falls
into the rather insignificant category. For example, I'm perfectly aware that we USED to OWN the Griz in hoops. That is rather OLD
history though. Doubt many folks are that interested in celebrating ancient history.

My point is this: it isn't so bad to lose to your rival every now and then if you have tasted recent success. But I don't consider success
going back many decades as counting for much.

[aucat]

Onceacat, I don't disagree with a thing you stated. I guess I would only say that Coach Ash is just about 65 isn't he? It takes a ton of energy and commitment
to run a successful football program. One thing that I've noticed over the years is that the older coaches who have success have outstanding and STABLE
asst. coaching staffs. That certainly has not been the case for Ash. He has lost some very good coaches. But I just have to say if the whiskey we are drinking
ain't working it may be time to try a different brand.

[77matcat]

Just speak or write correctly.

I'm very frustrated with the past 30 years. We seem to have an athletic dept that is satisfied with mediocrity or believes it only possible to have one thing or the other (good kids or winning team).

Corp America is becoming more transparent because share holders, SEC and the courts have made them. I would really really like our athletic department do the same and post on its website the goals and objectives each coach has.

Unless the fans know what's expected from the coaches how are we to judge how the coach is doing. They may be building a team that is exactly what they are being asked to. If you agree please email Waded and request the same.

Under no circumstances however forget that the a Cats at one time owned the griz. Makes it easier to stay exactly where we are at. Mediocrity.


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[John K]

I'm pulling for the Griz in this one. Why? Because of my propensity to cheer for winning programs (Mariners, Cowboys, Bobcats).

Ha! I root for the Bobcats, Broncos, and Braves...I'm in the same leaky canoe as you! I'll probably find myself rooting for PSU though...I just can't root for the GRIZ.

Two out of three isn't bad I guess...haha. I don't mean to derail the topic, but I just have to comment on this, since I'm also a Braves fan. I can't believe the way they've dismantled that team over the last year or so. I think Freeman and Tehran are the only guys still left, who were on the roster at the end of the 2014 season. They've added a bunch of pitching prospects, and they might be doing the right thing in the long term, but it's hard to imagine that they'll be any better next season, than they were in 2015, which wasn't very good.

[ilovethecats]

Sdsu is a tough match up for them. They're the type of team they had given the Griz fits this year.

One with a defense???


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, they've beaten teams with very good defenses (NDSU, ND). But teams with good defenses and a straight ahead power run game have made them look mediocre.

No, South Dakota State didn't beat NDSU. Montana beat both those teams (NDSU, UND).

um...

slow down. re-read carefully. make sure to include all of the quoted portions in your reading. if you still draw the same conclusion as the one you did above, please pop back in for further assistance.

[Cat Grad]

Just speak or write correctly.

I'm very frustrated with the past 30 years. We seem to have an athletic dept that is satisfied with mediocrity or believes it only possible to have one thing or the other (good kids or winning team).

Corp America is becoming more transparent because share holders, SEC and the courts have made them. I would really really like our athletic department do the same and post on its website the goals and objectives each coach has.

Unless the fans know what's expected from the coaches how are we to judge how the coach is doing. They may be building a team that is exactly what they are being asked to. If you agree please email Waded and request the same.

Under no circumstances however forget that the a Cats at one time owned the griz. Makes it easier to stay exactly where we are at. Mediocrity.


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One of the few times I'm not making a post sarcastic in nature; so, which sport in the MSU Athletic Department (or for that fact any of our conference members) is truly "average" or "mediocre?" We're all playing 1-AA football, men and women basketball teams are one and done come tournament time, and if a kid does well in the NCAA Finals such as Patrick Casey did when he placed third his coach is absolutely amazed. The best thing to happen to the Rodeo Team in the last few years was when they separated from the Athletic Department. And as far as being "owned" by the Grizzlies? They "won" two more football games than the Cats and will ultimately have one fewer loss this year. With all the money that school's main booster's husband has it's surprising their stadium doesn't look like a couple former conference members, Boise and Nevada, by now. We're small college with a few more scholarships than Division II and and that's the extent of each and every Athletic Department in our conference. Every school, including the Griz, want to participate, not compete.

[John K]

You make a very good point, but I have occasionally seen coaches go into a situation and completely turn the thing around. Florida basketball was a joke until Billy Donovan showed up. Florida football was very average until Steve
spurrier came. Auburn was way down and had lost about 10 in a row to Alabama (a very similar rivalry situation to MSU-UM by the way), and Pat Dye
came in and completely turned that rivalry around. You mentioned Meyer--OSU was really struggling until he came.
Same with Michigan but look at the difference now under Jim Harbaugh.

Alabama was really struggling and had lost six in a row to Auburn, then along comes Nick Saban now look.

I hear you about the culture and leadership. However, I was under the impression that President Cruzado did not want MSU to be second fiddle to UM
in ANYTHING. So I don't know. Some are complaining about our stadium, but since we got the new end zone I think it is great. Sure, it could use some
refurbishing, but it is a great football environment now and good capacity. I love the basketball arena now also.

So I just don't know what the answer is. I would agree completely with you if we were talking about this 15 years ago, but I don't see the disparity that
great now. Maybe a truly energetic, fired up new head coach WOULD get this thing turned around. It takes A LOT of energy, passion and commitment--
from recruiting to having the team completely ready to play each game.

I get your point. But, Saban and Meyer took over highly successful programs (Bama was 22-15 in the 4 years before Saban was hired, Ohio St made something like 6 or 8 consecutive Rose/Fiesta/Championship games under Tressel). Top tier programs that a HOF coach took the the championships.

The 49s fired Harbaugh after an 8-8 season-How did that work out?

I think you can make a better case for Urban Meyers transformation of Utah into the best team in the country in 2004 as an example of what a great coach can do.

But that highlights the problem facing the Cats: How do you find an Urban Meyer to take over? Its not like those guys are just hanging out looking for jobs. Matter of fact, anyone who we really want to replace Ash has probably already headed to the lower tiers of FCS football. Its really hard to find that sort of elite coach to take over a football team in a (relative) backwater like Bozeman for $150k, especially when they can earn double that as a position coach in the Mountain West.

Again, not to say that Ash hasn't worn out his welcome, but look at the short list of candidates for the Griz job last year. Think about it this way: would you take Ash, Stitt, or Hauck. Those might be our best choices.

I just don't get all the people who seem convinced that we wouldn't be able to find a good coach, if/when we decide to part ways with Ash. All things considered, MSU should be one of the plum jobs in all of FCS. If it's because we don't trust Fields to make a good hire, then he should be shown the door first, before making any decisions about the head football coaching job. Our last three head coaches have all had better records than their immediate predecessor. Hysell > Solomonson...Kramer > Hysell...Ash > Kramer. And each of those three was hired by a different AD. Why do we think that trend is suddenly going to end? It's almost like some of our fans are still suffering from a "Solomonson hangover". We made one horrible hire almost 30 years ago, and yet some of our fans are still living in fear of repeating that mistake. One of the reasons I was so against firing Kramer when we did (actually I was just against it in general, but lets's not stir that up again), is because I thought the pool of potential candidates would be much more limited in May/June, than if we made a change at the "traditional" time, at the end of the season. I figured there were probably quite a few very qualified candidates, who just wouldn't even consider making a move at that time of year. I'm sure that was UM's mindset, when they chose to go with an interim coach in the Spring of 2012, rather than doing a full blown coaching search at that time of year. That being said though, we did find a good coach back then. I have to believe that if we make a change now, the pool of potential candidates will be even deeper and stronger than it was when we hired Ash. There's no reason why we shouldn't be able to find someone good for this job. I guarantee you that when UM did their coaching search last fall, their fans weren't wringing their hands, and saying "we're just little podunk University of Montana...nobody good is going to want this job".

[91catAlum]

Would some potentially great coaches, without a lot of experience yet, shy away from applying for the MSU job if Ash were fired this year? Some potential candidates might look at it like this: Ash took 3 seasons to get his guys in the program, then made the playoffs 4 out of 5 seasons, then had one 5-6 losing season and got fired, is that really the job I want?

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[GetEm_Griz]

Sdsu is a tough match up for them. They're the type of team they had given the Griz fits this year.

One with a defense???


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No, they've beaten teams with very good defenses (NDSU, ND). But teams with good defenses and a straight ahead power run game have made them look mediocre.

No, South Dakota State didn't beat NDSU. Montana beat both those teams (NDSU, UND).

um...

slow down. re-read carefully. make sure to include all of the quoted portions in your reading. if you still draw the same conclusion as the one you did above, please pop back in for further assistance.

Oops!

[John K]

Would some potentially great coaches, without a lot of experience yet, shy away from applying for the MSU job if Ash were fired this year? Some potential candidates might look at it like this: Ash took 3 seasons to get his guys in the program, then made the playoffs 4 out of 5 seasons, then had one 5-6 losing season and got fired, is that really the job I want?

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Some potential coaches might look at the situation in that way. Others might view it like this..."with everything that school and program has going for it, they should never go 5-6. I could have that program at or near the top of the BSC every year". I think you underestimate the size of most coach's egos, at least the really good ones.

[91catAlum]

Would some potentially great coaches, without a lot of experience yet, shy away from applying for the MSU job if Ash were fired this year? Some potential candidates might look at it like this: Ash took 3 seasons to get his guys in the program, then made the playoffs 4 out of 5 seasons, then had one 5-6 losing season and got fired, is that really the job I want?

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Some potential coaches might look at the situation in that way. Others might view it like this..."with everything that school and program has going for it, they should never go 5-6. I could have that program at or near the top of the BSC every year". I think you underestimate the size of most coach's egos, at least the really good ones.

Ya that's a good point. I'm really on the fence about Ash, just trying to think about what's truly best for the program right now, this off season. I can see arguments for both sides.

[Htowngriz]

Sdsu is a tough match up for them. They're the type of team they had given the Griz fits this year.

One with a defense???


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I seem to remember beating NDSU, NAU and UND, all of whom had at least respectable defenses.

[Htowngriz]

Sdsu is a tough match up for them. They're the type of team they had given the Griz fits this year.

One with a defense???


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, they've beaten teams with very good defenses (NDSU, ND). But teams with good defenses and a straight ahead power run game have made them look mediocre.

North Dakota had the best RB in the conference.