Program just got destroyed

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BobcatDel
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Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:54 pm

Re: Program just got destroyed

Post by BobcatDel » Wed Apr 19, 2023 2:45 pm

CelticCat wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2023 2:36 pm
Battle and Osobor both stated publicly that returning is on the table. I mean I’d put Battle at like 5% and Osobor a bit higher at 15% but they did say it was in consideration. I don’t believe Ford has said that.
Boy I hope you are right! Matt seems to be a good coach based on first impressions but my "Debbie Downer" side says Osobor is too close to Haslam and just looking at the folks interested in Battle...ooofta.. some great upside opportunities for that young man.



BobcatDel
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Posts: 1383
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:54 pm

Re: Program just got destroyed

Post by BobcatDel » Wed Apr 19, 2023 3:38 pm

BelligerentBobcat wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2023 11:06 am
thefrank1 wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2023 8:36 am
I agree with your conclusion on Leon and the quality of this hire.

As a mid level septuagenarian, I have a different take on your acceptance conclusion. I believe that one's ability to accept change is largely driven by the ability to think critically. I acknowledge that us older folk got less training in critical thinking so my generation not generally does have the same level of critical thinking skills as later generations. The increase in critical thinkiing skills gives me hope that the future is bright.
I’m a younger person, and I’m not going to pretend I like the constant changing of roster and coaches…but it’s difficult for me to grasp how people don’t understand why it’s happening and how it’s not awful. It’s not going to change, so we just gotta Buck up and live with it. I love sports (too much sometimes) but at the end of the day it’s just entertainment. I’m not going to live and breathe off of if we’re good or not, that’s not healthy.
People understand why it's happening and we can debate until blue in the face if it is good or bad for the program. And most people are realistic in the fact we are going to live with it, but that doesn't mean we have to like it. You may but I'm not but I still realize we will operate in the system and I hope we are successful.

We have people on the board calling the players (under the old system) as "prisoners" or "indentured servants".... which is absolutely bizarre to the nth degree. The players are students first and young adults who made a decision...they explored playing opportunities on their own, they signed commitment letters to play at MSU or other schools with no coercion and the school made commitments to them in terms of scholarships or walk-on etc, and the players had the choice at any time to leave on their own volition..... its just the new system allows them to leave at will with no penalty to wait a year to play. And I like to think they are walking away from a commitment or are at least unappreciative of the commitment of what the university has done for them.... besides providing an education for $80,000 to $100,000 or booster clubs paying for summer school so they could graduate in 3 years vs. 4 years (graduating in 3 years was not common in olden times) or providing coaching and training facilities at student and taxpayer dollars so they could grow their skills and show it on the floor making their value increase to outside schools.

Now if you are a supporter like me (as I suspect many on the board are) you support the program via your season ticket purchase, your Montana tax dollars, your niece or nephew who contribute through their student fees, and who support through giving to their booster club. All those dollars support a MBB program that barely breaks even and a WBB program that loses several hundred thousand dollars each year. We aren't a Kentucky with their large funding pool or Texas who has a $750Million TV contract to keep the program thriving. Part of the reason I send my dollars to support the kids is because of the quality of kids we get as students first and athletes second...and for the quality of programs we put on the floor with the limited dollars we have. We are never going to compete with the big schools and one could question whether we are taking away dollars that should go to academics rather than funneled to athletics. And I personally enjoy getting to know the kids better, watching them grow and develop, hearing what they are doing in their career after athletics, etc... I am really not into the commercial athletics gig.

Lets have fun.... how bout we try a couple things.

First, lets take it to the Montana tax payers and then the ASMSU student body and see if they agree with continued funding of "one and done" athletes? If we lose the vote, lets raise all the funds for athletic scholarships via donor funding and allow the athletes and donors come to contract terms for how long they stay....or

Second, lets put in place a contract like the coaches have. You know when a head coach leaves he has to "buy out" the balance of his contract... which is normally bought out by the new school. Lets just say that we assume a new incoming athlete commits to four years at a scholarship of $30,000/yr (out of state kid) and lets just assume the coaching and development they receive is worth $50/hr (cheap if you look at health clubs now) and the training facilities they used is worth $50/hr and their exposure on the court that is televised advertising their skills is worth another $200 per hour. Lets just let them go to a new school but if they leave a year early the new team they went to would have to "buy-out" a year of their commitment. If they were a starter or top 7 player the new school pays 100% and if a bench sitter then 50%.

Third, lets drop any athletic program that can't at least break even with ticket sales or booster funds within three years of using the new system of using the portal.

Fourth, lets expand the program to high school athletics on a broad scale. Sitting up athletic development centers in Billings, Bozeman, Great Falls, Helena where they pick the best junior high athletes in the state and develop them if they commit to playing at the AA schools and stay in state at the college level. That includes taking them from Class C, B, A schools and allowing them to move at their choice to the development centers under full cost reimbursement.

I don't know, I'm being factitious at bit...but I am beginning to wonder if I would rather take my dollars and set up a nursing or engineering scholarship for some kid willing to work at it rather than play the "paid compensation game for athletes.

But yep, I fully understand it is the new system and I will live with it. But some of my "heart" is no longer there. Maybe time will tell.

And please don't lecture me about the commitment... I remember working for a company that would pay my way for going to graduate school but I had to commit to stay three years. If I left I understood I had a commitment to pay back a year or two of the sponsored education. Life is tough... make a decision and accept the consequences.



MSU01
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Posts: 7567
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Re: Program just got destroyed

Post by MSU01 » Wed Apr 19, 2023 4:38 pm

CelticCat wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2023 2:36 pm
Battle and Osobor both stated publicly that returning is on the table. I mean I’d put Battle at like 5% and Osobor a bit higher at 15% but they did say it was in consideration. I don’t believe Ford has said that.
I feel like the percentage for Battle depends a lot on a question that's still unanswered, which is if he'd have immediate eligiblity at his transfer school or if he'd need to sit out a year. Ford seems like a decent candidate to return as while he's a solid player I can't see him getting too many offers that would be clear upgrades over MSU.



Cat Grad
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Posts: 7463
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 11:05 am

Re: Program just got destroyed

Post by Cat Grad » Wed Apr 19, 2023 4:46 pm

Twenty five or thirty years ago I was a strong advocate that Ted Turner buy all the non federal land in Montana and restore it to it's natural state. The regional petty squabbling within the state boundaries ensured those whom advocate the mindset "I'm here, now let's build a fence and keep everybody out." and keep everything as it is within the state as it was and always will be seem to have lost. Looks like times have changed. I personally like the new people who have moved to Montana and seem to be dragging MSU up to bigger and better despite the old school mindset. That applies to the athletic department. I for one see absolutely no reason why MSU can't become a powerful mid major basketball program with coaches who continue to pluck great players off the portal such as Great, RaeQuan, etc. Worked really well for the previous coach and I see absolutely no reason why Coach Logie should not be afforded the opportunity to bring in a group of kids off the portal also.



tetoncat
Member # Retired
Posts: 2917
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Location: Montana

Re: Program just got destroyed

Post by tetoncat » Wed Apr 19, 2023 7:21 pm

BobcatDel wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2023 3:38 pm
BelligerentBobcat wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2023 11:06 am
thefrank1 wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2023 8:36 am
I agree with your conclusion on Leon and the quality of this hire.

As a mid level septuagenarian, I have a different take on your acceptance conclusion. I believe that one's ability to accept change is largely driven by the ability to think critically. I acknowledge that us older folk got less training in critical thinking so my generation not generally does have the same level of critical thinking skills as later generations. The increase in critical thinkiing skills gives me hope that the future is bright.
I’m a younger person, and I’m not going to pretend I like the constant changing of roster and coaches…but it’s difficult for me to grasp how people don’t understand why it’s happening and how it’s not awful. It’s not going to change, so we just gotta Buck up and live with it. I love sports (too much sometimes) but at the end of the day it’s just entertainment. I’m not going to live and breathe off of if we’re good or not, that’s not healthy.
People understand why it's happening and we can debate until blue in the face if it is good or bad for the program. And most people are realistic in the fact we are going to live with it, but that doesn't mean we have to like it. You may but I'm not but I still realize we will operate in the system and I hope we are successful.

We have people on the board calling the players (under the old system) as "prisoners" or "indentured servants".... which is absolutely bizarre to the nth degree. The players are students first and young adults who made a decision...they explored playing opportunities on their own, they signed commitment letters to play at MSU or other schools with no coercion and the school made commitments to them in terms of scholarships or walk-on etc, and the players had the choice at any time to leave on their own volition..... its just the new system allows them to leave at will with no penalty to wait a year to play. And I like to think they are walking away from a commitment or are at least unappreciative of the commitment of what the university has done for them.... besides providing an education for $80,000 to $100,000 or booster clubs paying for summer school so they could graduate in 3 years vs. 4 years (graduating in 3 years was not common in olden times) or providing coaching and training facilities at student and taxpayer dollars so they could grow their skills and show it on the floor making their value increase to outside schools.

Now if you are a supporter like me (as I suspect many on the board are) you support the program via your season ticket purchase, your Montana tax dollars, your niece or nephew who contribute through their student fees, and who support through giving to their booster club. All those dollars support a MBB program that barely breaks even and a WBB program that loses several hundred thousand dollars each year. We aren't a Kentucky with their large funding pool or Texas who has a $750Million TV contract to keep the program thriving. Part of the reason I send my dollars to support the kids is because of the quality of kids we get as students first and athletes second...and for the quality of programs we put on the floor with the limited dollars we have. We are never going to compete with the big schools and one could question whether we are taking away dollars that should go to academics rather than funneled to athletics. And I personally enjoy getting to know the kids better, watching them grow and develop, hearing what they are doing in their career after athletics, etc... I am really not into the commercial athletics gig.

Lets have fun.... how bout we try a couple things.

First, lets take it to the Montana tax payers and then the ASMSU student body and see if they agree with continued funding of "one and done" athletes? If we lose the vote, lets raise all the funds for athletic scholarships via donor funding and allow the athletes and donors come to contract terms for how long they stay....or

Second, lets put in place a contract like the coaches have. You know when a head coach leaves he has to "buy out" the balance of his contract... which is normally bought out by the new school. Lets just say that we assume a new incoming athlete commits to four years at a scholarship of $30,000/yr (out of state kid) and lets just assume the coaching and development they receive is worth $50/hr (cheap if you look at health clubs now) and the training facilities they used is worth $50/hr and their exposure on the court that is televised advertising their skills is worth another $200 per hour. Lets just let them go to a new school but if they leave a year early the new team they went to would have to "buy-out" a year of their commitment. If they were a starter or top 7 player the new school pays 100% and if a bench sitter then 50%.

Third, lets drop any athletic program that can't at least break even with ticket sales or booster funds within three years of using the new system of using the portal.

Fourth, lets expand the program to high school athletics on a broad scale. Sitting up athletic development centers in Billings, Bozeman, Great Falls, Helena where they pick the best junior high athletes in the state and develop them if they commit to playing at the AA schools and stay in state at the college level. That includes taking them from Class C, B, A schools and allowing them to move at their choice to the development centers under full cost reimbursement.

I don't know, I'm being factitious at bit...but I am beginning to wonder if I would rather take my dollars and set up a nursing or engineering scholarship for some kid willing to work at it rather than play the "paid compensation game for athletes.

But yep, I fully understand it is the new system and I will live with it. But some of my "heart" is no longer there. Maybe time will tell.

And please don't lecture me about the commitment... I remember working for a company that would pay my way for going to graduate school but I had to commit to stay three years. If I left I understood I had a commitment to pay back a year or two of the sponsored education. Life is tough... make a decision and accept the consequences.

Great description of an opinion some fans have


Sports is not bigger than life

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84CatGrad
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Re: Program just got destroyed

Post by 84CatGrad » Wed Apr 19, 2023 9:28 pm

I don't know what to think. I like rooting for kids for four years and getting familiar with their style of play and maybe a little about their personal lives. That seems to be evaporating in the name of the almighty dollar. More and more I am a bigger fan of the Columbus Cougars where kids play their hearts out for nothing more than their teammates, school, and community.



Catlady
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Posts: 305
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 8:47 am

Re: Program just got destroyed

Post by Catlady » Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:05 pm

BobcatDel wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2023 3:38 pm
BelligerentBobcat wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2023 11:06 am
thefrank1 wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2023 8:36 am
I agree with your conclusion on Leon and the quality of this hire.

As a mid level septuagenarian, I have a different take on your acceptance conclusion. I believe that one's ability to accept change is largely driven by the ability to think critically. I acknowledge that us older folk got less training in critical thinking so my generation not generally does have the same level of critical thinking skills as later generations. The increase in critical thinkiing skills gives me hope that the future is bright.
I’m a younger person, and I’m not going to pretend I like the constant changing of roster and coaches…but it’s difficult for me to grasp how people don’t understand why it’s happening and how it’s not awful. It’s not going to change, so we just gotta Buck up and live with it. I love sports (too much sometimes) but at the end of the day it’s just entertainment. I’m not going to live and breathe off of if we’re good or not, that’s not healthy.
People understand why it's happening and we can debate until blue in the face if it is good or bad for the program. And most people are realistic in the fact we are going to live with it, but that doesn't mean we have to like it. You may but I'm not but I still realize we will operate in the system and I hope we are successful.

We have people on the board calling the players (under the old system) as "prisoners" or "indentured servants".... which is absolutely bizarre to the nth degree. The players are students first and young adults who made a decision...they explored playing opportunities on their own, they signed commitment letters to play at MSU or other schools with no coercion and the school made commitments to them in terms of scholarships or walk-on etc, and the players had the choice at any time to leave on their own volition..... its just the new system allows them to leave at will with no penalty to wait a year to play. And I like to think they are walking away from a commitment or are at least unappreciative of the commitment of what the university has done for them.... besides providing an education for $80,000 to $100,000 or booster clubs paying for summer school so they could graduate in 3 years vs. 4 years (graduating in 3 years was not common in olden times) or providing coaching and training facilities at student and taxpayer dollars so they could grow their skills and show it on the floor making their value increase to outside schools.

Now if you are a supporter like me (as I suspect many on the board are) you support the program via your season ticket purchase, your Montana tax dollars, your niece or nephew who contribute through their student fees, and who support through giving to their booster club. All those dollars support a MBB program that barely breaks even and a WBB program that loses several hundred thousand dollars each year. We aren't a Kentucky with their large funding pool or Texas who has a $750Million TV contract to keep the program thriving. Part of the reason I send my dollars to support the kids is because of the quality of kids we get as students first and athletes second...and for the quality of programs we put on the floor with the limited dollars we have. We are never going to compete with the big schools and one could question whether we are taking away dollars that should go to academics rather than funneled to athletics. And I personally enjoy getting to know the kids better, watching them grow and develop, hearing what they are doing in their career after athletics, etc... I am really not into the commercial athletics gig.

Lets have fun.... how bout we try a couple things.

First, lets take it to the Montana tax payers and then the ASMSU student body and see if they agree with continued funding of "one and done" athletes? If we lose the vote, lets raise all the funds for athletic scholarships via donor funding and allow the athletes and donors come to contract terms for how long they stay....or

Second, lets put in place a contract like the coaches have. You know when a head coach leaves he has to "buy out" the balance of his contract... which is normally bought out by the new school. Lets just say that we assume a new incoming athlete commits to four years at a scholarship of $30,000/yr (out of state kid) and lets just assume the coaching and development they receive is worth $50/hr (cheap if you look at health clubs now) and the training facilities they used is worth $50/hr and their exposure on the court that is televised advertising their skills is worth another $200 per hour. Lets just let them go to a new school but if they leave a year early the new team they went to would have to "buy-out" a year of their commitment. If they were a starter or top 7 player the new school pays 100% and if a bench sitter then 50%.

Third, lets drop any athletic program that can't at least break even with ticket sales or booster funds within three years of using the new system of using the portal.

Fourth, lets expand the program to high school athletics on a broad scale. Sitting up athletic development centers in Billings, Bozeman, Great Falls, Helena where they pick the best junior high athletes in the state and develop them if they commit to playing at the AA schools and stay in state at the college level. That includes taking them from Class C, B, A schools and allowing them to move at their choice to the development centers under full cost reimbursement.

I don't know, I'm being factitious at bit...but I am beginning to wonder if I would rather take my dollars and set up a nursing or engineering scholarship for some kid willing to work at it rather than play the "paid compensation game for athletes.

But yep, I fully understand it is the new system and I will live with it. But some of my "heart" is no longer there. Maybe time will tell.

And please don't lecture me about the commitment... I remember working for a company that would pay my way for going to graduate school but I had to commit to stay three years. If I left I understood I had a commitment to pay back a year or two of the sponsored education. Life is tough... make a decision and accept the consequences.
The Dictionary is an amazing source……. Here’s the definition. I’m not saying I agree or disagree, but you’re the one that wants to penalize the player if they leave!

Indentured servant Definition & Meaning
Merriam-Webster
https://www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › inde...
The meaning of INDENTURED SERVANT is a person who signs and is bound by indentures to work for another for a specified time especially in return for payment



Ilikecats
BobcatNation Letterman
Posts: 238
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:50 pm
Location: Butte

Re: Program just got destroyed

Post by Ilikecats » Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:13 pm

Catlady wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:05 pm
BobcatDel wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2023 3:38 pm
BelligerentBobcat wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2023 11:06 am
thefrank1 wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2023 8:36 am
I agree with your conclusion on Leon and the quality of this hire.

As a mid level septuagenarian, I have a different take on your acceptance conclusion. I believe that one's ability to accept change is largely driven by the ability to think critically. I acknowledge that us older folk got less training in critical thinking so my generation not generally does have the same level of critical thinking skills as later generations. The increase in critical thinkiing skills gives me hope that the future is bright.
I’m a younger person, and I’m not going to pretend I like the constant changing of roster and coaches…but it’s difficult for me to grasp how people don’t understand why it’s happening and how it’s not awful. It’s not going to change, so we just gotta Buck up and live with it. I love sports (too much sometimes) but at the end of the day it’s just entertainment. I’m not going to live and breathe off of if we’re good or not, that’s not healthy.
People understand why it's happening and we can debate until blue in the face if it is good or bad for the program. And most people are realistic in the fact we are going to live with it, but that doesn't mean we have to like it. You may but I'm not but I still realize we will operate in the system and I hope we are successful.

We have people on the board calling the players (under the old system) as "prisoners" or "indentured servants".... which is absolutely bizarre to the nth degree. The players are students first and young adults who made a decision...they explored playing opportunities on their own, they signed commitment letters to play at MSU or other schools with no coercion and the school made commitments to them in terms of scholarships or walk-on etc, and the players had the choice at any time to leave on their own volition..... its just the new system allows them to leave at will with no penalty to wait a year to play. And I like to think they are walking away from a commitment or are at least unappreciative of the commitment of what the university has done for them.... besides providing an education for $80,000 to $100,000 or booster clubs paying for summer school so they could graduate in 3 years vs. 4 years (graduating in 3 years was not common in olden times) or providing coaching and training facilities at student and taxpayer dollars so they could grow their skills and show it on the floor making their value increase to outside schools.

Now if you are a supporter like me (as I suspect many on the board are) you support the program via your season ticket purchase, your Montana tax dollars, your niece or nephew who contribute through their student fees, and who support through giving to their booster club. All those dollars support a MBB program that barely breaks even and a WBB program that loses several hundred thousand dollars each year. We aren't a Kentucky with their large funding pool or Texas who has a $750Million TV contract to keep the program thriving. Part of the reason I send my dollars to support the kids is because of the quality of kids we get as students first and athletes second...and for the quality of programs we put on the floor with the limited dollars we have. We are never going to compete with the big schools and one could question whether we are taking away dollars that should go to academics rather than funneled to athletics. And I personally enjoy getting to know the kids better, watching them grow and develop, hearing what they are doing in their career after athletics, etc... I am really not into the commercial athletics gig.

Lets have fun.... how bout we try a couple things.

First, lets take it to the Montana tax payers and then the ASMSU student body and see if they agree with continued funding of "one and done" athletes? If we lose the vote, lets raise all the funds for athletic scholarships via donor funding and allow the athletes and donors come to contract terms for how long they stay....or

Second, lets put in place a contract like the coaches have. You know when a head coach leaves he has to "buy out" the balance of his contract... which is normally bought out by the new school. Lets just say that we assume a new incoming athlete commits to four years at a scholarship of $30,000/yr (out of state kid) and lets just assume the coaching and development they receive is worth $50/hr (cheap if you look at health clubs now) and the training facilities they used is worth $50/hr and their exposure on the court that is televised advertising their skills is worth another $200 per hour. Lets just let them go to a new school but if they leave a year early the new team they went to would have to "buy-out" a year of their commitment. If they were a starter or top 7 player the new school pays 100% and if a bench sitter then 50%.

Third, lets drop any athletic program that can't at least break even with ticket sales or booster funds within three years of using the new system of using the portal.

Fourth, lets expand the program to high school athletics on a broad scale. Sitting up athletic development centers in Billings, Bozeman, Great Falls, Helena where they pick the best junior high athletes in the state and develop them if they commit to playing at the AA schools and stay in state at the college level. That includes taking them from Class C, B, A schools and allowing them to move at their choice to the development centers under full cost reimbursement.

I don't know, I'm being factitious at bit...but I am beginning to wonder if I would rather take my dollars and set up a nursing or engineering scholarship for some kid willing to work at it rather than play the "paid compensation game for athletes.

But yep, I fully understand it is the new system and I will live with it. But some of my "heart" is no longer there. Maybe time will tell.

And please don't lecture me about the commitment... I remember working for a company that would pay my way for going to graduate school but I had to commit to stay three years. If I left I understood I had a commitment to pay back a year or two of the sponsored education. Life is tough... make a decision and accept the consequences.
The Dictionary is an amazing source……. Here’s the definition. I’m not saying I agree or disagree, but you’re the one that wants to penalize the player if they leave!

Indentured servant Definition & Meaning
Merriam-Webster
https://www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › inde...
The meaning of INDENTURED SERVANT is a person who signs and is bound by indentures to work for another for a specified time especially in return for payment
Even worse, if the school fires you, because you’re not as good as they expected, you still have to sit out a year. Even if your family pays for your education and you’re a walk on, you still have to sit out a year. College athletics is big business….. but it was slanted to protect the school, not the players.



User avatar
Bobcat4Ever
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Posts: 3515
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Location: Nevada

Re: Program just got destroyed

Post by Bobcat4Ever » Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:30 pm

There’s another big value that student athletes receive, in addition to scholarships and an education and all of that. They get 1-5 years of transformative coaching and mental and physical development. Were any of these players, not only those that are moving on because of their skill level, as good at basketball the day they came to MSU as they are now? Of course not. They may go on to play, to coach, be athletic administrators, TV and radio commentators, referees, physical trainers. What’s the value of what they received in athletic skills and knowledge? Pretty hard to calculate, but add up the coaches salaries, the travel, the facilities (the Brick isn’t cheap to heat or light), the officials — everything. Then divide by 12 or 15. Players are getting a huge benefit, along with the education. When it’s said the school got everything and they got nothing — that’s simply disingenuous.



Cat Grad
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Posts: 7463
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 11:05 am

Re: Program just got destroyed

Post by Cat Grad » Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:47 pm

Ilikecats wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:13 pm
Catlady wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 1:05 pm
BobcatDel wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2023 3:38 pm
BelligerentBobcat wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2023 11:06 am
thefrank1 wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2023 8:36 am
I agree with your conclusion on Leon and the quality of this hire.

As a mid level septuagenarian, I have a different take on your acceptance conclusion. I believe that one's ability to accept change is largely driven by the ability to think critically. I acknowledge that us older folk got less training in critical thinking so my generation not generally does have the same level of critical thinking skills as later generations. The increase in critical thinkiing skills gives me hope that the future is bright.
I’m a younger person, and I’m not going to pretend I like the constant changing of roster and coaches…but it’s difficult for me to grasp how people don’t understand why it’s happening and how it’s not awful. It’s not going to change, so we just gotta Buck up and live with it. I love sports (too much sometimes) but at the end of the day it’s just entertainment. I’m not going to live and breathe off of if we’re good or not, that’s not healthy.
People understand why it's happening and we can debate until blue in the face if it is good or bad for the program. And most people are realistic in the fact we are going to live with it, but that doesn't mean we have to like it. You may but I'm not but I still realize we will operate in the system and I hope we are successful.

We have people on the board calling the players (under the old system) as "prisoners" or "indentured servants".... which is absolutely bizarre to the nth degree. The players are students first and young adults who made a decision...they explored playing opportunities on their own, they signed commitment letters to play at MSU or other schools with no coercion and the school made commitments to them in terms of scholarships or walk-on etc, and the players had the choice at any time to leave on their own volition..... its just the new system allows them to leave at will with no penalty to wait a year to play. And I like to think they are walking away from a commitment or are at least unappreciative of the commitment of what the university has done for them.... besides providing an education for $80,000 to $100,000 or booster clubs paying for summer school so they could graduate in 3 years vs. 4 years (graduating in 3 years was not common in olden times) or providing coaching and training facilities at student and taxpayer dollars so they could grow their skills and show it on the floor making their value increase to outside schools.

Now if you are a supporter like me (as I suspect many on the board are) you support the program via your season ticket purchase, your Montana tax dollars, your niece or nephew who contribute through their student fees, and who support through giving to their booster club. All those dollars support a MBB program that barely breaks even and a WBB program that loses several hundred thousand dollars each year. We aren't a Kentucky with their large funding pool or Texas who has a $750Million TV contract to keep the program thriving. Part of the reason I send my dollars to support the kids is because of the quality of kids we get as students first and athletes second...and for the quality of programs we put on the floor with the limited dollars we have. We are never going to compete with the big schools and one could question whether we are taking away dollars that should go to academics rather than funneled to athletics. And I personally enjoy getting to know the kids better, watching them grow and develop, hearing what they are doing in their career after athletics, etc... I am really not into the commercial athletics gig.

Lets have fun.... how bout we try a couple things.

First, lets take it to the Montana tax payers and then the ASMSU student body and see if they agree with continued funding of "one and done" athletes? If we lose the vote, lets raise all the funds for athletic scholarships via donor funding and allow the athletes and donors come to contract terms for how long they stay....or

Second, lets put in place a contract like the coaches have. You know when a head coach leaves he has to "buy out" the balance of his contract... which is normally bought out by the new school. Lets just say that we assume a new incoming athlete commits to four years at a scholarship of $30,000/yr (out of state kid) and lets just assume the coaching and development they receive is worth $50/hr (cheap if you look at health clubs now) and the training facilities they used is worth $50/hr and their exposure on the court that is televised advertising their skills is worth another $200 per hour. Lets just let them go to a new school but if they leave a year early the new team they went to would have to "buy-out" a year of their commitment. If they were a starter or top 7 player the new school pays 100% and if a bench sitter then 50%.

Third, lets drop any athletic program that can't at least break even with ticket sales or booster funds within three years of using the new system of using the portal.

Fourth, lets expand the program to high school athletics on a broad scale. Sitting up athletic development centers in Billings, Bozeman, Great Falls, Helena where they pick the best junior high athletes in the state and develop them if they commit to playing at the AA schools and stay in state at the college level. That includes taking them from Class C, B, A schools and allowing them to move at their choice to the development centers under full cost reimbursement.

I don't know, I'm being factitious at bit...but I am beginning to wonder if I would rather take my dollars and set up a nursing or engineering scholarship for some kid willing to work at it rather than play the "paid compensation game for athletes.

But yep, I fully understand it is the new system and I will live with it. But some of my "heart" is no longer there. Maybe time will tell.

And please don't lecture me about the commitment... I remember working for a company that would pay my way for going to graduate school but I had to commit to stay three years. If I left I understood I had a commitment to pay back a year or two of the sponsored education. Life is tough... make a decision and accept the consequences.
The Dictionary is an amazing source……. Here’s the definition. I’m not saying I agree or disagree, but you’re the one that wants to penalize the player if they leave!

Indentured servant Definition & Meaning
Merriam-Webster
https://www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › inde...
The meaning of INDENTURED SERVANT is a person who signs and is bound by indentures to work for another for a specified time especially in return for payment
Even worse, if the school fires you, because you’re not as good as they expected, you still have to sit out a year. Even if your family pays for your education and you’re a walk on, you still have to sit out a year. College athletics is big business….. but it was slanted to protect the school, not the players.
Well stated. The days of the kid getting a "free education" have been destroyed in court. By the Supreme Court no less! What a crock to listen to old school coaches making millions bitch about "loyalty" and "commitment" when in fact they seldom even get an interview from that pillar of academic excellence where they were a college hero. It's a huge business and the working force is just now getting a part of the pie.



Catlady
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Re: Program just got destroyed

Post by Catlady » Thu Apr 20, 2023 2:00 pm

I’m not saying I disagree with you. I do disagree with the opinion that because a 17-18 year old commits to a University they should be penalized if they decide to leave. I noticed that all the positions you named in your post Bobcat4ever doesn’t have the same limitations. USU boosters paid Sprinkles buyout…… did Sprinkle not become a better coach during his time at MSU? Same as the other positions you mentioned. Why is the only one they want to penalize if they leave is the Player? College athletics is a huge business……… I know it’s not cheap, but all the positions you named in your post exist because of college athletes. There are players asked every season to go play at another school. The school doesn’t say, but if you want to stay, we’ll pay your scholarship……. The kids that came to MSU to play for Sprinkle, should they be penalized because Sprinkle left for an opportunity to triple his compensation?



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Hawks86
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Re: Program just got destroyed

Post by Hawks86 » Thu Apr 20, 2023 2:26 pm

I'm pretty sure basketball is the same as football and these kids are basically on 1 year contracts. Their "commitment" can be renewed or canceled every year.


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Desert_Bobcat
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Re: Program just got destroyed

Post by Desert_Bobcat » Thu Apr 20, 2023 3:58 pm

Hawks86 wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 2:26 pm
I'm pretty sure basketball is the same as football and these kids are basically on 1 year contracts. Their "commitment" can be renewed or canceled every year.
100%. I’m fairly positive Germer and Nick G weren’t given the option to “renew” for this upcoming season. May they have left on their own if given the option, possibly. But I think that decision was made for them rather than on their own.



tetoncat
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Re: Program just got destroyed

Post by tetoncat » Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:24 pm

Desert_Bobcat wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 3:58 pm
Hawks86 wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 2:26 pm
I'm pretty sure basketball is the same as football and these kids are basically on 1 year contracts. Their "commitment" can be renewed or canceled every year.
100%. I’m fairly positive Germer and Nick G weren’t given the option to “renew” for this upcoming season. May they have left on their own if given the option, possibly. But I think that decision was made for them rather than on their own.
Isn't that just like any academic scholarship. If you don't perform to a certain standard you lose it. And those students don't get nutrition, training, tutors to help.


Sports is not bigger than life

Desert_Bobcat
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Re: Program just got destroyed

Post by Desert_Bobcat » Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:30 pm

tetoncat wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:24 pm
Desert_Bobcat wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 3:58 pm
Hawks86 wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 2:26 pm
I'm pretty sure basketball is the same as football and these kids are basically on 1 year contracts. Their "commitment" can be renewed or canceled every year.
100%. I’m fairly positive Germer and Nick G weren’t given the option to “renew” for this upcoming season. May they have left on their own if given the option, possibly. But I think that decision was made for them rather than on their own.
Isn't that just like any academic scholarship. If you don't perform to a certain standard you lose it. And those students don't get nutrition, training, tutors to help.
Exactly. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing thing athletic scholarships operate like that. I’m more less pointing it out as 2 very recent examples of it happening on the team



Catlady
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Re: Program just got destroyed

Post by Catlady » Thu Apr 20, 2023 6:31 pm

Do they have to sit out a year?



Catlady
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Re: Program just got destroyed

Post by Catlady » Thu Apr 20, 2023 6:32 pm

Catlady wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 6:31 pm
Do they have to sit out a year? If they lose their academic scholarship?



tetoncat
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Re: Program just got destroyed

Post by tetoncat » Thu Apr 20, 2023 7:16 pm

Athletes don't either the first time, and get many more benefits. Even those not on scholarship are getting training and tutors. I don't agree with the feelings that student athletes are taken advantage of. NAIA, D3, D2 don't get the same benefits and still play. These players know what they sign up for.

Using the highest paid coaches as an excuse that players deserve these big NIL deals but then complaining that we need to pay MSU assistants more seem to contradict each other. The majority of colleges lose money on sports and do t have do ors willing to foot the bill.


Sports is not bigger than life

Cat Grad
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Re: Program just got destroyed

Post by Cat Grad » Thu Apr 20, 2023 7:52 pm

tetoncat wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2023 7:16 pm
Athletes don't either the first time, and get many more benefits. Even those not on scholarship are getting training and tutors. I don't agree with the feelings that student athletes are taken advantage of. NAIA, D3, D2 don't get the same benefits and still play. These players know what they sign up for.

Using the highest paid coaches as an excuse that players deserve these big NIL deals but then complaining that we need to pay MSU assistants more seem to contradict each other. The majority of colleges lose money on sports and do t have do ors willing to foot the bill.
Virtually every Power 5 Athletic Department is run by a foundation. By law, they must spend every penny. Of course they'll show a loss. Be one hell of an IRS problem were they to try and operate a non-profit as a for profit enterprise.

The Dakota schools have also made the decision to take advantage of FCOA, they have nice NIL contracts for their student-athletes in addition to their decent stipends from the FCOA.

Are you advocating MSU drop to NAIA, DII or DIII?

Again, the Supreme Court has determined the NCAA has been screwing the student-athletes big time in a trillion dollar business. There is now a lawsuit the NCAA will lose whereby many schools are going to have to pay former athletes back pay.

College athletics has been, is and will be for many years to come a multibillion dollar industry annually and the actual workforce has not been compensated.

Edit* For your reading enjoyment:

https://theathletic.com/4381880/2023/04 ... -payments/

Edit 2* As the Athletic is a paywall, this Sports Illustrated article covers the same lawsuit:

https://www.si.com/college/2023/04/04/n ... se-hubbard



superbobcat
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Re: Program just got destroyed

Post by superbobcat » Thu Apr 20, 2023 9:13 pm

Johnny Hill was spotted in the Salt Lake City Airport in full Utah State gear. Chris, Andy, Johnny that is a trifecta.



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