Kramer action items

[SonomaCat]

Now that Kramer is staying, I'd say he has a full plate. What do you guys think he should do in light of the Fuller, etc., situation to assure the world that this sort of thing (and the sorts of things that have happened in the past relating to former players and coaches) doesn't happen again?

I view this as a very important action item, not only from an MSU integrity standpoint, but also from a recruiting standpoint.

I would also like to see a concerted effort addressed to dramatically increasing the MSU football team graduation rate.

And, of course, I would like to see the on-field success continue to increase ... but without the seemingly annual games where the team doesn't show up at all.

This could well be the most challenging year as a head coach at MSU that Kramer will ever face. The expectations for the on-field success are very high, but there are also some very obvious off-the-field issues that need to be rectified. I don't envy him right now.

A great recruiting season can heal a lot of wounds, however.

[rtb]

I would say the work load is HUGE right now.

#1 - Create ways to insure that we won't see off the field incidents like we have in the recent past. I don't expect that we won't have a player get in trouble for something minor here and there, but dealing drugs isn't minor.

#2 - EDUCATE THESE YOUNG MEN - A college degree is 100x more valuable than what they can do on the field. Don't recruit athletes that just want to play football. Sure I like winning, but I would rather have our scholarships contributing to society as a whole more than just for my entertainment on Saturday.

#3 - Get this team to the next level where we play ever game like we are capable of, not playing down to the level of our opponent. Kramer has never had a team in his time here that is solid and consistent from start to finish.

#4 - Roll punt is fine in MOST situations, but admit it doesn't always work and if you are standing in your own endzone...PUNT THE BALL.

#5 - Offense - It needs HELP!

[tampa_griz]

Now that Kramer is staying, I'd say he has a full plate. What do you guys think he should do in light of the Fuller, etc., situation to assure the world that this sort of thing (and the sorts of things that have happened in the past relating to former players and coaches) doesn't happen again?

I view this as a very important action item, not only from an MSU integrity standpoint, but also from a recruiting standpoint.

I would also like to see a concerted effort addressed to dramatically increasing the MSU football team graduation rate.

And, of course, I would like to see the on-field success continue to increase ... but without the seemingly annual games where the team doesn't show up at all.

This could well be the most challenging year as a head coach at MSU that Kramer will ever face. The expectations for the on-field success are very high, but there are also some very obvious off-the-field issues that need to be rectified. I don't envy him right now.

A great recruiting season can heal a lot of wounds, however.

I'm not sure if Kramer can do anything to "ensure" that this doesn't happen again. Considering Fuller's strong background he still slipped. I'd be surprised if anyone can say with a straight face they saw that one coming.

Someone else mentioned that talking with former coaches, teachers, and other student leaders would be a good source for any character questions. What kind of group does he spend his time with? What are his non-football and non-academic interests?

That's about all you can do. That and have a zero-tolerance policy for behavior that might point to this kind of activity. Just my 2 cents.

[CPACAT]

If you think there is anyway to prevent the Fuller situation you are fooling yourself. This is not a controllable situation.

You recruit athletes that you feel can play for your team that you believe have strong moral fiber and character and give them as much support as you can to help them make good decisions. That is all you can do. You cannot make decisions for them nor is there a test to determine which athletes will make nothing but good decisions.

Do we want 100% good citizens with our athletes? Yes.
Will we get 100% good citizens with our athletes? No

If you expect them all to be perfect you will be disappointed.

As far as the graduation rates go, what are they? How do they compare to other athletic programs at MSU and in the Big Sky? How do they compare to the general student population. You are indicating you believe there is a problem but have not defined the problem in a manner than can lead to meaningful discussion.

The biggest obstacle I see is getting our team to win the games that they should win. They have always seemed to have mental let downs that have had major impact on the season.

I am glad Kramer is staying from the standpoint that we have a lot of talent coming back and if we fill in for a couple of key losses with quality personnel we have a good chance to make a strong run for a national championship.

Go Cats!!!!!!!!!!!

[rtb]

I agree that the Fuller situation was NOT Kramer's fault and there was probably no way to see it coming, BUT that doesn't mean we can't examine our practices and find ways to try and prevent further things from happening. It is a challenge, but there should be a way to be more aware of our athlete's off-field behavior.

[Cat Grad]

Well, he addressed one issue that I hope he reconsiders in that he said he'll never sign another player from Florida again. There's a lot of great folks living there and I can understand why he'd make that blanket statement. His initial reaction to Deon Tolliver was something to the effect "You're not asking me to sign a kid from south-central LA are you?" We can't make a blanket statement about a kid: Andre Fuller's mother is a public school administrator!

BAC talked about the mentoring program. That's a great first step, as long as it doesn't take us back in time to hazing.

As far as the graduation rate is concerned, my gut reaction is to get the study hall program in effect and mandatory.

Finally, he obviously made the decision that he's going to see the promises he made to the kids and their parents through. It only strengthened my respect for him as a man of honor and I would hope he gets the full backing of all who are close to the program financially. I know I'll be in contact with the folks in charge of my local chapter and increase my contribution.

[SonomaCat]

I know that one can never eliminate off-field mistakes 100%, but I do certainly think that the environment you create can make the incidents more frequent or less frequent. I'll repost my very rough suggestions:

Everything I thought of may well already be in place in one form or another, but these were some thoughts I had in terms of processes that might be helpful:

Recruiting

There needs to be some tracking of student-athletes that might be higher risks than others. This doesn’t mean that a kid is turned away because he made a mistake in the past (as that is stupid, and ultimately harmful for society), but the people in the athletic department need to know which students may need additional attention. Further, if a kid has a solid trend of bad behavior that signals that trouble may be highly likely down the road, that information needs to be available.

Process: For each recruit, it would be mandatory for the recruiting coach to talk to at least two people who know the student well or know of their recent history or lack thereof (coach and superintendent would probably be likely choices), and the coach would have to document his discussions with them, highlighting any problems they have had in the past (legal, grades, etc.) in addition to any positive comments about them. This process wouldn’t be perfect as coaches and superintendents may be inclined to paint a rosy picture, but if they know it is documented, they would be more likely to be honest as any omissions may affect their credibility down the road.

This documentation would put the recruiting coach on record validating their due diligence into the character of the recruit, and would serve as an incentive to be very open and honest with everyone in the athletic department about the kids they are bringing into the program, and would identify those that will need extra assistance.

A background check on all recruits would be nice, but I suspect that there isn’t much publicly available for minors or new-adults, so this is probably a non-starter.

On-going support

Perhaps a full-time staff person could be added whose sole purpose is to serve as a student-athlete mentor. A former athlete who has shown great responsibility and insight would be perfect. This person’s job would be to meet on a regular basis with every student athlete to discuss anything that seems relevant, including grades, trouble outside of school, playing time, study tips, professional guidance, etc., etc. Essentially, this person would be a confidante that the students could turn to if they needed help. This person MUST be completely independent from the rest of the athletic department … perhaps reporting directing to the dean of students or someone similar. This way, they are outside of the chain of command in the AD, which would allow them to be truly objective and committed to looking out for the best interest of the students … even if it meant advising them that they need to do something that the coaches would disagree with (like leave the team to get their own ****** together).

The students whose recruiting paperwork suggests that they might be higher risk would be given more mandatory meetings with the mentor than a student athlete who is low risk, is getting good grades, and hasn’t exhibited any concerning behavior.

Further, there could be a system by which student-athletes could anonymously submit information to this mentor about anything important … including abuse by coaches, other student-athletes doing things that need to be addressed (like running with a bad crowd or even selling drugs), or anything else along these lines. The mentor would then be able to independently contact the appropriate people to vet the information. In the case of tips about student-athletes doing things that may be bad decisions, the mentor would first and foremost bring the student-athlete in and talk to them about what they had heard, determine whether there was any validity to it, and then try to convince the student to straighten up. If that didn’t work, then the mentor could push the issue to whomever in the system could best deal with it (punishment, etc.), or even go to the authorities.

And in case some of you are hearing bells right now, yes, a lot of this mirrors corporate Sarbanes-Oxley control procedures … and the role of the mentor is essentially “internal audit.”

I think it is important to treat student-athletes like adults while still giving them the guidance they need when they need it. This experience should groom them to be the leaders of tomorrow, and not instead treat them like convicts who are presumed guilty of the crimes of others. And a large part of this is to create an environment where they have the resources available to get that guidance in confidence. And, in the rare cases when it is necessary, they need to have that guidance rammed down their throat a bit.

[tampa_griz]

Well, he addressed one issue that I hope he reconsiders in that he said he'll never sign another player from Florida again. There's a lot of great folks living there and I can understand why he'd make that blanket statement. His initial reaction to Deon Tolliver was something to the effect "You're not asking me to sign a kid from south-central LA are you?" We can't make a blanket statement about a kid: Andre Fuller's mother is a public school administrator!

You can say that again.

[Cat Grad]

Well, he addressed one issue that I hope he reconsiders in that he said he'll never sign another player from Florida again. There's a lot of great folks living there and I can understand why he'd make that blanket statement. His initial reaction to Deon Tolliver was something to the effect "You're not asking me to sign a kid from south-central LA are you?" We can't make a blanket statement about a kid: Andre Fuller's mother is a public school administrator!

You can say that again.

Maybe you can step up a little and move to Maidera Beach? Get out of the low rent district

[tampa_griz]

Well, he addressed one issue that I hope he reconsiders in that he said he'll never sign another player from Florida again. There's a lot of great folks living there and I can understand why he'd make that blanket statement. His initial reaction to Deon Tolliver was something to the effect "You're not asking me to sign a kid from south-central LA are you?" We can't make a blanket statement about a kid: Andre Fuller's mother is a public school administrator!

You can say that again.

Maybe you can step up a little and move to Maidera Beach? Get out of the low rent district

And lose all my street cred?

Madeira Beach/Treasure Island actually have some of the most affordable beach-front living (at least in terms of apartments). Problem is no one works anywhere near that area unless you're in the restaurant/hotel industry. John's Pass is excellent too....but this is all for another discussion.

Seriously though, think Kramer will be able get this thing turned around. He's had an awful run of the luck lately (and yes, that what it is...luck) and I think he'll get pretty crafty when it comes to sniffing this sort of thing out.

[Platinumcat]

One thing that I think happens here (if it hasn't already) is that Kramer and his staff call a team meeting and circle the wagons. At this point, the only people who can make the difference are the players themselves. So, I see a big powwow talking about vigilance, honor, integrity.........

The players need to know that their teammates will not allow this thing to happen on THEIR team.

[MAGOO]

If you think there is anyway to prevent the Fuller situation you are fooling yourself. This is not a controllable situation.

You recruit athletes that you feel can play for your team that you believe have strong moral fiber and character and give them as much support as you can to help them make good decisions. That is all you can do. You cannot make decisions for them nor is there a test to determine which athletes will make nothing but good decisions.

Do we want 100% good citizens with our athletes? Yes.
Will we get 100% good citizens with our athletes? No

If you expect them all to be perfect you will be disappointed.

As far as the graduation rates go, what are they? How do they compare to other athletic programs at MSU and in the Big Sky? How do they compare to the general student population. You are indicating you believe there is a problem but have not defined the problem in a manner than can lead to meaningful discussion.

The biggest obstacle I see is getting our team to win the games that they should win. They have always seemed to have mental let downs that have had major impact on the season.

I am glad Kramer is staying from the standpoint that we have a lot of talent coming back and if we fill in for a couple of key losses with quality personnel we have a good chance to make a strong run for a national championship.

Go Cats!!!!!!!!!!!

True truth. And BAC's reposted (regifted?) suggestions are also excellent. It's important to keep in mind that the recently reported incidents took place early last summer, and that after the murder hit the papers both Coach Kramer and AD Fields took a number of positive steps to get a handle on the drug problem in Bozeman as it affects MSU athletes. Kramer is an excellent coach and PR rep for MSU.

[vike_king]

[quote="Cat Grad"]Well, he addressed one issue that I hope he reconsiders in that he said he'll never sign another player from Florida again. quote]

1. When did he say this and.
2. Isn't Clive Lowe from Florida and hasn't he been a good egg or have I missed something?

[bobcatgrad2005]

Fields had said something about being able to sweeten the pot for Kramer. What are those incentives, and do we all think KRamer should be offered them?

Kramer took the high road of integrity and committment by staying at MSU. I think Idaho was close to offering him the job. I think integrity and committment should be rewarded, regardless of what your adult athletes do.

Remember that the NCAA limits the amount of time coaches can spend with players. And with the amount of time boosters can spend with players. Unless we start to lock up our players 24/7 KRamer cannot control whether they run a red light, sell cocaine, or get a PhD.

But in his personal actions he has been MSU's best fundraiser, personality, and spokesperson.

[Platinumcat]

Well, he addressed one issue that I hope he reconsiders in that he said he'll never sign another player from Florida again. quote]

1. When did he say this and.
2. Isn't Clive Lowe from Florida and hasn't he been a good egg or have I missed something?

I believe it was in the Chronicle either today or yesterday. Kramer mentioned Lowe in the article and basically said that it spits in the face of all the great things that Clive has done here.

To me, this is as close to a knee jerk reaction I can remember coming from Kramer. It's not a Florida thing IMO, it's a personal decision thing that a person's geographical history has nothing to do with.

[Cat Grad]

Well, he addressed one issue that I hope he reconsiders in that he said he'll never sign another player from Florida again. quote]

1. When did he say this and.
2. Isn't Clive Lowe from Florida and hasn't he been a good egg or have I missed something?

It's in one of the newspaper articles that was posted here; he also mentioned Clive. I think he was just mad and shot from the lip at the time.

[tampa_griz]

I was going to post the link to the story, but the text version (that the link goes to) is horribly fouled up with entire sections transposed and makes no sense. Below is a reproduction that I think I have gotten everything back in proper order so the article makes sense.

Coach calls drug allegations tragic

By TIM DUMAS Chronicle Sports Writer

Until Monday morning, Montana State football coach Mike Kramer was wondering how to fit Andre Fuller onto the cover of next year’s media guide and schedule poster.

By Monday afternoon, Kramer was trying to figure out how Fuller — who was a candidate for captain next season, who was third in a high school class of 500 students and whose mother is an administrator at the same school — could be caught in a drug ring.

“I haven’t slept a wink,” Kramer said Wednesday. “It’s the greatest tragedy that I could have imagined.”

Fuller, a junior cornerback whom teammate Will Claggett called “one of the leaders on the team,” was arrested Monday along with former MSU players Eddie Sullivan and Derrick Davis. The three were charged with dealing cocaine and marijuana.

Fuller, from Pompano Beach, is the second athlete from Florida with ties to Montana State to be arrested in the past six months. Former football player John Lebrum was charged — along with former basketball player Branden Miller of Milwaukee, Wis. — in the murder of Jason Wright in June.

As a result, Kramer said his program will no longer recruit players from Florida as long as he’s head coach, even though one current Floridian, linebacker Clive Lowe of Fort Lauderdale, is a success story.

“That spits in the face of Clive Lowe, who did everything right,” Kramer said.

The coach said that he never saw Fuller’s arrest coming.

“I had no idea until 10:31 a.m. (Monday) when Peter called me,” he said, referring to MSU athletic director Peter Fields. “I called Andre and told him he needed to report to the police, and he complied and he was there in 12 minutes.

“He immediately complied when I asked him to do it. Why couldn’t he have done that (listened) in June (when Fuller was originally charged)?”

In the wake of another group of arrests of out-of-state athletes, Kramer, a leading candidate for the vacant head coaching position at Idaho, said his program does everything it can to ensure that troubled individuals don’t make it to campus.

But he admitted that countless background checks through high school administrators and coaches sometimes aren’t enough to guarantee the athletes won’t land in trouble here.

“We tell them that what you do in a social setting reflects on all of us,” Kramer said. “Not just Mike Kramer or (school president) Geoff Gamble or Peter Fields, but (wives) Sandi Kramer, Patty Gamble and Debbie Fields. They all feel sullied and dirty for having been associated with Andre.”

With Florida out of the picture, what of California, where Sullivan, Davis and countless other recruits and transfers are from?

Kramer estimated that of the 680 athletes who have played for him at MSU, roughly 400 are from California. This past season, 28 were Californian; 41 hailed from Montana.

Many people in the Bozeman community, including alumni, wonder why Montana State continues to recruit players from California. “I’ve heard that myself,” Claggett said Wednesday from his Marysville, Calif., home, “and it makes me angry a little bit that we get such a bad rap. The thing that you have to understand is, you can get bad kids from anywhere.”

“The fact is,” Kramer added, “that this group (Fuller, Davis and Sullivan) cannot ever take away from what those other 680 guys accomplished.”

Nevertheless, Kramer acknowledged how the public is viewing his program.

“I think it’s shallow that people are saying that every one of Mike Kramer’s players are selling drugs,” he said, “but it’s being said. It’s part of the human experience.”

Still, Kramer shouldered part of the blame for Monday’s arrests.

“I started out as a teacher, and when not every one of your students get As, you feel responsible,” he said. “These guys obviously flunked and I feel responsible anytime a student flunks.”

Kramer, who normally doesn’t talk about skin color, addressed the racial overtones that inevitably come with such arrests.

“I’m fearful that because these guys (Fuller, Davis and Sullivan) are black, there’s going to be a backlash (against the African-Americans currently on the team).”

Claggett said the soft-spoken and deeply religious Fuller got in with the wrong crowd.

“You get going down one road and it’s hard to turn back,” he said, “but the thing with Andre is, and I really believe this, this is a black shadow on one part of his great life. He’s going to go on and do great things.”

[BobCatFan]

Well, he addressed one issue that I hope he reconsiders in that he said he'll never sign another player from Florida again. There's a lot of great folks living there and I can understand why he'd make that blanket statement. His initial reaction to Deon Tolliver was something to the effect "You're not asking me to sign a kid from south-central LA are you?" We can't make a blanket statement about a kid: Andre Fuller's mother is a public school administrator!

BAC talked about the mentoring program. That's a great first step, as long as it doesn't take us back in time to hazing.

As far as the graduation rate is concerned, my gut reaction is to get the study hall program in effect and mandatory.

Finally, he obviously made the decision that he's going to see the promises he made to the kids and their parents through. It only strengthened my respect for him as a man of honor and I would hope he gets the full backing of all who are close to the program financially. I know I'll be in contact with the folks in charge of my local chapter and increase my contribution.

I wish Kramer did not say that about Florida. Now, no kid, no matter how good of a kid, will not come to MSU. I remember Coach Durham make a committ about Native American kids. Have you seen a Native America kid come to MSU to play basketball since then. Stupid statements like this can burn you.

Everybody should be judged by their character and abililites, not by their color of thier skin, hair, eyes, or where they come from. I like blue eyed blonds, so I had to add the hair and eyes statement.

[SonomaCat]

Well, he addressed one issue that I hope he reconsiders in that he said he'll never sign another player from Florida again. There's a lot of great folks living there and I can understand why he'd make that blanket statement. His initial reaction to Deon Tolliver was something to the effect "You're not asking me to sign a kid from south-central LA are you?" We can't make a blanket statement about a kid: Andre Fuller's mother is a public school administrator!

BAC talked about the mentoring program. That's a great first step, as long as it doesn't take us back in time to hazing.

As far as the graduation rate is concerned, my gut reaction is to get the study hall program in effect and mandatory.

Finally, he obviously made the decision that he's going to see the promises he made to the kids and their parents through. It only strengthened my respect for him as a man of honor and I would hope he gets the full backing of all who are close to the program financially. I know I'll be in contact with the folks in charge of my local chapter and increase my contribution.

I wish Kramer did not say that about Florida. Now, no kid, no matter how good of a kid, will not come to MSU. I remember Coach Durham make a committ about Native American kids. Have you seen a Native America kid come to MSU to play basketball since then. Stupid statements like this can burn you.

Everybody should be judged by their character and abililites, not by their color of thier skin, hair, eyes, or where they come from. I like blue eyed blonds, so I had to add the hair and eyes statement.

Couldn't agree more. I hope his comment was just an off-the-cuff thing said out of frustration.

[Cat Grad]

Yeah, Conway almost left and his sister went a couple hundred miles west. I'm still pi$$ed at Durham, but that's off topic.