roll punt

Hell's Bells · Post by **Hell's Bells** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:59 pm

msu vs. opponent punt return yards..

38-347 27-193

average 9.13 7.14

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:14 pm

Okay, give all of us the statistics for net yards

With the change in field position, we may as well go for it on every fourth down and even ya'll know it

Now, how many blocks did we have over the last two years that cost us ball games? Ummmm--PSU last year? UMMMM--EWU a time or two? UMMM----get my drift and understand, but I don't mean to tell you your business, but....

Hell's Bells · Post by **Hell's Bells** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:16 pm

Cat Grad wrote:Okay, give all of us the statistics for net yards With the change in field position, we may as well go for it on every fourth down and even ya'll know it Now, how many blocks did we have over the last two years that cost us ball games? Ummmm--PSU last year? UMMMM--EWU a time or two? UMMM----get my drift and understand, but I don't mean to tell you your business, but....

wasnt psu last year decided on a fumble by TL?

Post by **SonomaCat** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:16 pm

Hell's Bells wrote:msu vs. opponent punt return yards..

38-347 27-193

average 9.13 7.14

Why don't you dig up net yards for us? And factor in the blocks, please.

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:17 pm

Hell's Bells wrote:
Cat Grad wrote:Okay, give all of us the statistics for net yards With the change in field position, we may as well go for it on every fourth down and even ya'll know it Now, how many blocks did we have over the last two years that cost us ball games? Ummmm--PSU last year? UMMMM--EWU a time or two? UMMM----get my drift and understand, but I don't mean to tell you your business, but....
wasnt psu last year decided on a fumble by TL?

What was he trying to do?

Hell's Bells · Post by **Hell's Bells** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:18 pm

Cat Grad wrote:
Hell's Bells wrote:
Cat Grad wrote:Okay, give all of us the statistics for net yards With the change in field position, we may as well go for it on every fourth down and even ya'll know it Now, how many blocks did we have over the last two years that cost us ball games? Ummmm--PSU last year? UMMMM--EWU a time or two? UMMM----get my drift and understand, but I don't mean to tell you your business, but....
wasnt psu last year decided on a fumble by TL?
What was he trying to do?

it was not a blocked punt....

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:20 pm

Hell's Bells wrote:
Cat Grad wrote:
Hell's Bells wrote:
Cat Grad wrote:Okay, give all of us the statistics for net yards With the change in field position, we may as well go for it on every fourth down and even ya'll know it Now, how many blocks did we have over the last two years that cost us ball games? Ummmm--PSU last year? UMMMM--EWU a time or two? UMMM----get my drift and understand, but I don't mean to tell you your business, but....
wasnt psu last year decided on a fumble by TL?
What was he trying to do?
it was not a blocked punt....

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:22 pm

...and you're avoiding the main issue which is: what is our net yards per punt?

Hell's Bells · Post by **Hell's Bells** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:23 pm

Cat Grad wrote:...and you're avoiding the main issue which is: what is our net yards per punt?

around 30 i belive

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:26 pm

Hell's Bells wrote:
Cat Grad wrote:...and you're avoiding the main issue which is: what is our net yards per punt?
around 30 i belive

I believe the question is: What was our net for the year? Not the average punt. Pretty scary, facts and data, huh?

Hell's Bells · Post by **Hell's Bells** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:30 pm

Cat Grad wrote:
Hell's Bells wrote:
Cat Grad wrote:...and you're avoiding the main issue which is: what is our net yards per punt?
around 30 i belive
I believe the question is: What was our net for the year? Not the average punt. Pretty scary, facts and data, huh?

and why dont you find:

our tds given up on punt coverage as compaired with the rest of the big sky or even d1aa

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:45 pm

Hell's Bells wrote:
Cat Grad wrote:
Hell's Bells wrote:
Cat Grad wrote:...and you're avoiding the main issue which is: what is our net yards per punt?
around 30 i belive
I believe the question is: What was our net for the year? Not the average punt. Pretty scary, facts and data, huh?
and why dont you find:

our tds given up on punt coverage as compaired with the rest of the big sky or even d1aa

Alright, I'll play. You do realize one of the "unofficial" stats includes points off blocks and ya'll are familiar with the points off turnovers already? Blocks used to be included in this rather obscure set of data...

Man, I hate giving my age away

Hell's Bells · Post by **Hell's Bells** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:48 pm

Cat Grad wrote:
Hell's Bells wrote:
Cat Grad wrote:
Hell's Bells wrote:
Cat Grad wrote:...and you're avoiding the main issue which is: what is our net yards per punt?
around 30 i belive
I believe the question is: What was our net for the year? Not the average punt. Pretty scary, facts and data, huh?
and why dont you find:

our tds given up on punt coverage as compaired with the rest of the big sky or even d1aa
Alright, I'll play. You do realize one of the "unofficial" stats includes points off blocks and ya'll are familiar with the points off turnovers already? Blocks used to be included in this rather obscure set of data... Man, I hate giving my age away

good cauz i would hate to give mine away also...i think i might have done so in a previous thread

thank god for the privacy of the internet!

i see what you are saying, most people are dismayed about our lack of a good put at all this year but i will say this. didnt the don reid grizzlies use a squip kick way back when (like what we are doing now with our punting) as a attempt at cutting yardage running back kicks (or in our case punts)

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:56 pm

Hell's Bells wrote:
Cat Grad wrote:
Hell's Bells wrote:
Cat Grad wrote:
Hell's Bells wrote:
Cat Grad wrote:...and you're avoiding the main issue which is: what is our net yards per punt?
around 30 i belive
I believe the question is: What was our net for the year? Not the average punt. Pretty scary, facts and data, huh?
and why dont you find:

our tds given up on punt coverage as compaired with the rest of the big sky or even d1aa
Alright, I'll play. You do realize one of the "unofficial" stats includes points off blocks and ya'll are familiar with the points off turnovers already? Blocks used to be included in this rather obscure set of data... Man, I hate giving my age away
good cauz i would hate to give mine away also...i think i might have done so in a previous thread

thank god for the privacy of the internet!

i see what you are saying, most people are dismayed about our lack of a good put at all this year but i will say this. didnt the don reid grizzlies use a squip kick way back when (like what we are doing now with our punting) as a attempt at cutting yardage running back kicks (or in our case punts)

I know many high school coaches teach their kids to continually kick it out of bounds...and that still seems more logical than risking getting it blocked or run back. I believe if we factor in the blocks, which for some reason don't count as a punt today (?). we net about 25-28 this year. As I posted earlier, may as well go for it.

Hell's Bells · Post by **Hell's Bells** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:58 pm

Cat Grad wrote:
Hell's Bells wrote:
Cat Grad wrote:
Hell's Bells wrote:
Cat Grad wrote:
Hell's Bells wrote:
Cat Grad wrote:...and you're avoiding the main issue which is: what is our net yards per punt?
around 30 i belive
I believe the question is: What was our net for the year? Not the average punt. Pretty scary, facts and data, huh?
and why dont you find:

our tds given up on punt coverage as compaired with the rest of the big sky or even d1aa
Alright, I'll play. You do realize one of the "unofficial" stats includes points off blocks and ya'll are familiar with the points off turnovers already? Blocks used to be included in this rather obscure set of data... Man, I hate giving my age away
good cauz i would hate to give mine away also...i think i might have done so in a previous thread

thank god for the privacy of the internet!

i see what you are saying, most people are dismayed about our lack of a good put at all this year but i will say this. didnt the don reid grizzlies use a squip kick way back when (like what we are doing now with our punting) as a attempt at cutting yardage running back kicks (or in our case punts)

I know many high school coaches teach their kids to continually kick it out of bounds...and that still seems more logical than risking getting it blocked or run back. I believe if we factor in the blocks, which for some reason don't count as a punt today (?). we net about 25-28 this year. As I posted earlier, may as well go for it.

i see but admit this: some blocks would have been unavoidable..

WeedKillinCat · Post by **WeedKillinCat** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:43 am

I feel the roll punt works well when you want to pin them deep in their own territory, but to do it deep in your own territory makes no sense when the other team gets it at mid field. It gives them the chance for some momentum, and drive down and get 7 or 3.....

Platinumcat · Post by **Platinumcat** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:09 am

My opinion is that it isn't so much the roll punt that's the issue. It's the personnel blocking for the kicker and the kicker itself this year.

Case in point:
1) First punt yesterday was horrendous. Bolton is supposed to be able to boom it. He didn't even really roll that much on that punt and it just sucked. The mechanics for actually kicking the ball aren't different whether you're moving already or starting from a standstill. He's been erratic this year. I've also seen him nail almost 70 yard punts from this same roll style. We need someone more consistent. If anything, I think that Bolton does a great job in pinning them deep with "touch" punts where he doesn't need to absolutely boom it.

2) On the blocked punt yesterday, our lineman hardly touched the guy. He was so centered on getting downfield to make a tackle that he forgot his first job; his missed assignment in blocking the defender caused this as much as anything.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:24 am

barechestcat wrote:My opinion is that it isn't so much the roll punt that's the issue. It's the personnel blocking for the kicker and the kicker itself this year.

Case in point:
1) First punt yesterday was horrendous. Bolton is supposed to be able to boom it. He didn't even really roll that much on that punt and it just sucked. The mechanics for actually kicking the ball aren't different whether you're moving already or starting from a standstill. He's been erratic this year. I've also seen him nail almost 70 yard punts from this same roll style. We need someone more consistent. If anything, I think that Bolton does a great job in pinning them deep with "touch" punts where he doesn't need to absolutely boom it.

2) On the blocked punt yesterday, our lineman hardly touched the guy. He was so centered on getting downfield to make a tackle that he forgot his first job; his missed assignment in blocking the defender caused this as much as anything.

The whole point, though, is that to execute the roll point well, there has to be all sorts of good execution. Listening to people talk about missed blocks, it is akin to running a good sweep.

In a traditional punt, it seems like there is rarely a "missed block," because there is little need for blocks ... you just need to slow them down.

Granted, every time the roll punt has failed to work, one can say there was a lack of execution. But the level of execution necessary for a roll punt appears to be about 10x that of a conventional punt ... and conventional punts seem to result in better nets (comparing MSU to its opponents and historical punters, anyway).

I just don't see the point in continuing to try to do something that is hard to do and does not work that well very often to begin with.

Use it here and there (but not with your back to the endzone) for a different look or in special circumstances, but not every single time.

Platinumcat · Post by **Platinumcat** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:32 am

Bay Area Cat wrote:
barechestcat wrote:My opinion is that it isn't so much the roll punt that's the issue. It's the personnel blocking for the kicker and the kicker itself this year.

Case in point:
1) First punt yesterday was horrendous. Bolton is supposed to be able to boom it. He didn't even really roll that much on that punt and it just sucked. The mechanics for actually kicking the ball aren't different whether you're moving already or starting from a standstill. He's been erratic this year. I've also seen him nail almost 70 yard punts from this same roll style. We need someone more consistent. If anything, I think that Bolton does a great job in pinning them deep with "touch" punts where he doesn't need to absolutely boom it.

2) On the blocked punt yesterday, our lineman hardly touched the guy. He was so centered on getting downfield to make a tackle that he forgot his first job; his missed assignment in blocking the defender caused this as much as anything.
The whole point, though, is that to execute the roll point well, there has to be all sorts of good execution. Listening to people talk about missed blocks, it is akin to running a good sweep.

In a traditional punt, it seems like there is rarely a "missed block," because there is little need for blocks ... you just need to slow them down.

Granted, every time the roll punt has failed to work, one can say there was a lack of execution. But the level of execution necessary for a roll punt appears to be about 10x that of a conventional punt ... and conventional punts seem to result in better nets (comparing MSU to its opponents and historical punters, anyway).

I just don't see the point in continuing to try to do something that is hard to do and does not work that well very often to begin with.

Use it here and there (but not with your back to the endzone) for a different look or in special circumstances, but not every single time.

Maybe my arguement on this style of punt stems from its success in years past and not so much this year. The results this year certainly don't produce a strong defense. And, I'm certainly no expert in this area of the game as I was one of the guys doing the blocking.

But, here's another thought to ponder. Is it just me? Or, did our roll punt used to have more roll in it? I seem to remember our punts taking place further out to the side away from the rush from the line.

On your point of executing the block BAC, I simply disagree with you there. Blocking a guy is the same in both cases. Get your body on him and don't let him through until it's time to release and move down the field. Whether he's charging straight forward or at an angle, you always pinch down.

Plenty of conversation to come on this I'm sure as Kramer has said as long as he's the head coach, the roll punt will be our method. But, who knows, he's got an entire off season to reflect on that position.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:42 am

When your punter is intentionally delaying the punt and running towards a spot (and towards the line of scrimmage) as opposed to punting it from the core of his protection, and then intentionally kicking the ball on a flatter trajectory ... how can you not say that it is harder to block for him?

The entire concept of the roll punt, especially when done every single time, obviously makes it harder for the kicking team to block for as compared to a traditional punt.

The fact that we get so many blocked (due to poor blocking, I am told), even when Lulay was doing it, seems to prove out this assertion.

The roll punt is clearly a lot harder to execute that the conventional punt ... and the risk is far higher than the reward, as this experiment has proven.

I have some degree of faith that Kramer will make a change in the offseason. If he doesn't ... he will be displaying attributes of a bad coach IMO (namely, being too stubborn to admit that he's wrong).

roll punt

roll punt

Re: roll punt