The Bobcat Nation

This should start a good fight!

MSU vs UM&EWU

MSU’s two biggest nemeses(?) over the years.
Combined record:
Choate 4-3 (4-0 vs UM; 0-3 vs EWU)
Vigen 5-2 (4-0 vs EWU; 1-2 vs UM)

Who’s better?

TomCat88 wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 03, 2024 5:15 pm

This should start a good fight!

MSU vs UM&EWU

MSU’s two biggest nemeses(?) over the years.
Combined record:
Choate 4-3 (4-0 vs UM; 0-3 vs EWU)
Vigen 6-2 (4-0 vs EWU; 2-2 vs UM)

Who’s better?

EWU is clearly in a worse place for Vigens 4 years than Choates. And at least 2 of Choates 4 wins against the gris came as significant underdogs.

Heck, I think Rob Ash would be 4-0 against EWU in the last 4 years.

All that said, Choate's superpower was having the team amped up for the Brawl. If it weren't for those wins, he probably would have been fired at the end of year 2.

Vigen is light years better everywhere EXCEPT the Brawl. I'll take Vigens playoff record over Choates' 4-0 in the Brawl every day.

To be fair, EWU hasn't been quite as good the last few years as they were in the late 2010s, and the griz have been better the last few years than they were in Choate's era, especially the first 2 under Stitt. So I'm not sure it's a fair question.

Having said that, in my opinion a win over the hated griz is probably worth 1.5 wins whereas a win over ewu is just 1 conference win. So it's pretty even if you think about it that way.

Vigen is only 1-2 against dumb. I like where your head is at tho. Should be 2-2 soon enough.

Vigen is the winner! He’s not chasing fame and fortune just a national championship

onceacat wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 03, 2024 5:27 pm

TomCat88 wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 03, 2024 5:15 pm

This should start a good fight!

MSU vs UM&EWU

MSU’s two biggest nemeses(?) over the years.
Combined record:
Choate 4-3 (4-0 vs UM; 0-3 vs EWU)
Vigen 6-2 (4-0 vs EWU; 2-2 vs UM)

Who’s better?

EWU is clearly in a worse place for Vigens 4 years than Choates. And at least 2 of Choates 4 wins against the gris came as significant underdogs.

Heck, I think Rob Ash would be 4-0 against EWU in the last 4 years.

All that said, Choate's superpower was having the team amped up for the Brawl. If it weren't for those wins, he probably would have been fired at the end of year 2.

Vigen is light years better everywhere EXCEPT the Brawl. I'll take Vigens playoff record over Choates' 4-0 in the Brawl every day.

EWU (10-3) was ranked in the top ten in 2021. And #15 in 2022. Both road wins for Vigen. Choates two wins in Missoula were both non-playoff teams for UM.

Seems like a question for the offseason. Let’s see how far this team goes in the playoffs.

PapaG wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 03, 2024 5:54 pm

Seems like a question for the offseason. Let’s see how far this team goes in the playoffs.

No one is around in the offseason.

.

jgrilley406 wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 03, 2024 6:28 pm

Losing to griz will cost a big sky championship and a top 2 seed again…Choate saw the importance of that game for recruiting and being from MT knew the importance of it. Vigen needs to act like it’s the first round of the playoffs cause there is so much they’ll end up losing with a loss again.

Depending on what happens with Davis the cats can still win the BSC championship with a loss to the gris. But yea it would suck and probably cost us a 2 seed.

The idea that Vigen didn’t find the game important is such astounding ignorance that it’s hard to respond to the statement with any seriousness.

BelligerentBobcat wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 03, 2024 6:44 pm

The idea that Vigen didn’t find the game important is such astounding ignorance that it’s hard to respond to the statement with any seriousness.

I really agree with this!

seataccat wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 03, 2024 6:39 pm

jgrilley406 wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 03, 2024 6:28 pm

Losing to griz will cost a big sky championship and a top 2 seed again…Choate saw the importance of that game for recruiting and being from MT knew the importance of it. Vigen needs to act like it’s the first round of the playoffs cause there is so much they’ll end up losing with a loss again.

Depending on what happens with Davis the cats can still win the BSC championship with a loss to the gris. But yea it would suck and probably cost us a 2 seed.

Davis beats Griz, Cats beat Davis, Griz likely out with 2 losses, Cats win tie breaker with Davis.

A huge part of Vigen's record is due to the foundation Choate built for the program before he left. One doesn't have to be better than the other, MSU needed both of those guys and they were each the perfect hire at the time they were made.

MSU01 wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 03, 2024 7:40 pm

A huge part of Vigen's record is due to the foundation Choate built for the program before he left. One doesn't have to be better than the other, MSU needed both of those guys and they were each the perfect hire at the time they were made.

Agree! And the circumstances surrounding each tenure are completely different.

BelligerentBobcat wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 03, 2024 6:44 pm

The idea that Vigen didn’t find the game important is such astounding ignorance that it’s hard to respond to the statement with any seriousness.

Yep.

Anyone who has talked to Vigen knows that he knows ALL to well the importance of this game. He’s never gonna be the rah rah guy that choate was but don’t let that fool you.

Sports are funny that way. Griz smoked us last year. But Vigen smoked them at home the year before. It’s not like he knew the importance and then just forgot last year!

I’d bet some money on the Cats this year. I think we’re better. But it’s the brawl and literally nothing would shock me.

I think Choate was the better coach to rebuild a program that Ash had allowed to decline. But to sustain success, Vigen is the better coach in my opinion.

autocat wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 03, 2024 5:32 pm

Vigen is the winner! He’s not chasing fame and fortune just a national championship

Correct, but the norm used to be all Playoffs began by beating the Gris because if you did you were in the playoffs. But that has changed over the years. The Gris are not the team they used to be or they think they are now.

TomCat88 wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 03, 2024 5:53 pm

onceacat wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 03, 2024 5:27 pm

TomCat88 wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 03, 2024 5:15 pm

This should start a good fight!

MSU vs UM&EWU

MSU’s two biggest nemeses(?) over the years.
Combined record:
Choate 4-3 (4-0 vs UM; 0-3 vs EWU)
Vigen 6-2 (4-0 vs EWU; 2-2 vs UM)

Who’s better?

EWU is clearly in a worse place for Vigens 4 years than Choates. And at least 2 of Choates 4 wins against the gris came as significant underdogs.

Heck, I think Rob Ash would be 4-0 against EWU in the last 4 years.

All that said, Choate's superpower was having the team amped up for the Brawl. If it weren't for those wins, he probably would have been fired at the end of year 2.

Vigen is light years better everywhere EXCEPT the Brawl. I'll take Vigens playoff record over Choates' 4-0 in the Brawl every day.

EWU (10-3) was ranked in the top ten in 2021. And #15 in 2022. Both road wins for Vigen. Choates two wins in Missoula were both non-playoff teams for UM.

2016: UM was #22 and a playoff bubble team when a Cats team without a QB knocked them out. EWU was #3 & went to the semis.

2017:UM was unranked, but 7-3 going into the Brawl. Likely playoff berth with a win at 8-3. EWU was #10 when we played, but missed the playoffs at 7-4

2018: MSU #25, Griz unraked. Winner in the playoffs, loser stays home. EWU was #5 when we played & was a semifinalist.

2019. Another closely matched year MSU came in #8, UM #3. No Ewoo game.

By my count, out of 7 games, 2 big upsets, 2 wins in coin flips, and 3 losses to a much higher ranked team. 6 of the 7 games were against playoff or 'win and in' playoff teams. Also, the 2016 and 2017 Cats were BAD, bordering on terrible.

2021: #3 MSU loses at #7 fizz in a really painful debacle. #4 MSU beats #5 EWU on the road

2022: EWU was ranked #15 when they played the Cats, but were clearly overhanded. Finished 2-6 in conference and 3-8 overall. #3 Cats beat up badly the #13 gris.

2023: Eags unranked (finished 4-7) UM obviously good. #4 vs #3 for the Brawl.

Cats weren't meaningful underdogs in any of those games, and were ranked higher than the gris/Eags in 6 of the 7.

Its pretty obvious in my mind that Choates wins were A LOT more impressive given the landscape of the Big Sky.

Lord Vigo wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 03, 2024 8:53 pm

I think Choate was the better coach to rebuild a program that Ash had allowed to decline. But to sustain success, Vigen is the better coach in my opinion.

I think this is spot on. Choate had reached his ceiling here.

And I wouldn't hire Vigen to turn around a problem program. Choates rah-rah attitude (reminds me of Kramer) is a key to what he did.

I could see them both being pretty mediocre hires if you switched their position.