Noah Smith in portal

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coloradocat
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Re: Noah Smith in portal

Post by coloradocat » Fri May 05, 2023 12:04 pm

It's funny that Noah Smith is the player that sparked the overall NIL debate again. Shows that we'll talk about it regardless of who enters the portal.


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Re: Noah Smith in portal

Post by AFCAT » Fri May 05, 2023 12:09 pm

Cataholic wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 11:43 am
AFCAT wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 11:36 am
Prodigal Cat wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 11:29 am
Maybe we should make NIL collectives have to pay the school the exact $$ they are giving the player to transfer. You want RaQuan Battle? You're going to give him $475K NIL money? You have to give MSU $475K as well. NIL's would be more set up for rewarding the athletes currently in the program and less so for stealing from others. Still though it would just further segment the haves from the have-nots.
NIL collectives aren't affiliated with the university or athletic teams. NIL collectives have contracts with individual players.
Understood, but I like the concept. Basically, the larger school that is poaching from a smaller school should be compensating the smaller school somehow. That would be a step towards “leveling” the playing field. Wasn’t the NCAA established to prevent cheating and create a level playing field regardless of resources? It will never happen, but we can dream of that Utopia!
Utopia for sure. I could ask a lot of questions on how this system would work, but I know you all are just throwing out ideas. Unfortunately, I believe the haves will always rule over the have nots and MSU will mostly be in the lower side of the have nots.

From what I understand, the NCAA was originally established as a rule making organization for sports (i.e., football, basketball). I don't know if they had anything to do with resources or leveling the playing field.


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Re: Noah Smith in portal

Post by BozoneCat » Fri May 05, 2023 4:35 pm

Best solution I can come up with is that if you are transferring up or to the same level, you have to sit out a year, but don't lose a year of eligibility like in the past. Drop down, you can transfer and play immediately. You get one transfer during your first 4 years, and if you are eligible for a grad transfer, you get the option of transferring a 2nd time.

That's the best compromise I can come up.


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Re: Noah Smith in portal

Post by lutecat » Fri May 05, 2023 5:49 pm

Ilovethecats is right. Everyone else is wrong. Nuff said.

To say that people okay with the portal have never run a business I counter with some of us that have run a business that know what true leadership means want the best for the people that work for us. Even if sometimes it means they move on to better and bigger and brighter. It sucked when I lost the best employee that I ever had. But I was excited that she was accepting a new challenge in life.



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Re: Noah Smith in portal

Post by tetoncat » Fri May 05, 2023 7:37 pm

lutecat wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 5:49 pm
Ilovethecats is right. Everyone else is wrong. Nuff said.

To say that people okay with the portal have never run a business I counter with some of us that have run a business that know what true leadership means want the best for the people that work for us. Even if sometimes it means they move on to better and bigger and brighter. It sucked when I lost the best employee that I ever had. But I was excited that she was accepting a new challenge in life.
I agree if they move to better, brighter, bigger. but the portal seems to have created a large pool that isn't getting any of those three. Sideways moves, 3 or 4 schools in 5 years. Wouldn't you be concerned hiring someone who moved laterally every year.


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Re: Noah Smith in portal

Post by grizzh8r » Fri May 05, 2023 9:11 pm

tetoncat wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 7:37 pm
lutecat wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 5:49 pm
Ilovethecats is right. Everyone else is wrong. Nuff said.

To say that people okay with the portal have never run a business I counter with some of us that have run a business that know what true leadership means want the best for the people that work for us. Even if sometimes it means they move on to better and bigger and brighter. It sucked when I lost the best employee that I ever had. But I was excited that she was accepting a new challenge in life.
I agree if they move to better, brighter, bigger. but the portal seems to have created a large pool that isn't getting any of those three. Sideways moves, 3 or 4 schools in 5 years. Wouldn't you be concerned hiring someone who moved laterally every year.
Yep. We live in the unfortunate age of instant gratification and this only serves to reinforce the impatience that has been bred into our current culture. Sad sign of the times. Whatever happened to the ideology of "good things come to those who wait"?

I just turned 39 years old and have been with the company I work for for going on 14 years. In a company of over 200 North American employees (1/2 of which are on the manufacturing floor), I'm now in the top 10 of longest tenured front office/administration employees. I have 6 other engineering colleagues, and combined, they have a total of about 8 years with the company.


Eric Curry STILL makes me sad.
94VegasCat wrote:Are you for real? That is just a plain ol dumb paragraph! You just nailed every note in the Full Reetard sing-a-long choir!!!
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Re: Noah Smith in portal

Post by ilovethecats » Sat May 06, 2023 2:52 am

tetoncat wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 7:37 pm
lutecat wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 5:49 pm
Ilovethecats is right. Everyone else is wrong. Nuff said.

To say that people okay with the portal have never run a business I counter with some of us that have run a business that know what true leadership means want the best for the people that work for us. Even if sometimes it means they move on to better and bigger and brighter. It sucked when I lost the best employee that I ever had. But I was excited that she was accepting a new challenge in life.
I agree if they move to better, brighter, bigger. but the portal seems to have created a large pool that isn't getting any of those three. Sideways moves, 3 or 4 schools in 5 years. Wouldn't you be concerned hiring someone who moved laterally every year.
Yes but you’re looking at it through fan glasses. It may not look bigger, better or brighter to YOU when looking at kids transferring. However, even a “lateral” move from a fan standpoint may be a much bigger and better move for the kid actually doing the playing and schooling.

I just can’t wrap my head around the fact that collegiate athletics seems to be the ONE thing in which people get upset when a student decides to change his situation. Every single one of us would leave our current situation for more money, love, happiness, closer to family, city we love, better cost of living, new experiences, etc. That’s all these kids are doing.



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Re: Noah Smith in portal

Post by lutecat » Sat May 06, 2023 5:39 am

ilovethecats wrote:
Sat May 06, 2023 2:52 am
tetoncat wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 7:37 pm
lutecat wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 5:49 pm
Ilovethecats is right. Everyone else is wrong. Nuff said.

To say that people okay with the portal have never run a business I counter with some of us that have run a business that know what true leadership means want the best for the people that work for us. Even if sometimes it means they move on to better and bigger and brighter. It sucked when I lost the best employee that I ever had. But I was excited that she was accepting a new challenge in life.
I agree if they move to better, brighter, bigger. but the portal seems to have created a large pool that isn't getting any of those three. Sideways moves, 3 or 4 schools in 5 years. Wouldn't you be concerned hiring someone who moved laterally every year.
Yes but you’re looking at it through fan glasses. It may not look bigger, better or brighter to YOU when looking at kids transferring. However, even a “lateral” move from a fan standpoint may be a much bigger and better move for the kid actually doing the playing and schooling.

I just can’t wrap my head around the fact that collegiate athletics seems to be the ONE thing in which people get upset when a student decides to change his situation. Every single one of us would leave our current situation for more money, love, happiness, closer to family, city we love, better cost of living, new experiences, etc. That’s all these kids are doing.
Exactly. What we may think is lateral, is in fact bigger and brighter for someone else. We have no idea what constitutes bigger and brighter for anyone else in this world.

One could argue Quinn Mcquery went bigger and brighter by dropping down a level. Well a couple levels. Had he stuck around he would've played Choate's first year with Prukop transferring out, sure. But how would he know Ash would be gone. He was THE man at Tech. Who cares of it was this level or another level. He got to play football. And maybe that was his bigger and better. Could he be sitting at home playing the what if game? Maybe. But that's for him to do if he wants. My guess is he's good with his outcome.

And if you want to argue Pru's tenure at Oregon and the way it ended for him....I would counter that he took risk and dang I admire people that take risk in life. Because no matter what happens you always learn from it. Because ultimately it's their life. It's their lessons to learn. And it's not for you and I to judge just because it was our team they left.
Watch this...are you judging the guys that leave the team from the NW of us?

I can get behind limiting the number of transfers a guy can take in his career. But at the same time, if you run a business and/or are involved in hiring, you know when you look at an application and see a person has a new job every year, you're leary of hiring them. You know that says something about them and their ability to get along with others or leadership, or stick through difficult situations. Not saying sometimes they have reason but you look harder before bringing that person in. I can only imagine the same goes for transfers and sports. Another life real life situation. I once had an employee that gave me an application for an entry level position. She had never worked anywhere for more than a month. Seriously. She was 21ish so not that old. But still. She came back to me about 4 times asking me about the job. Finally the last time she flat out asked why I wasn't giving her the job. We had a conversation. I told her what I expected. She said she would do that. And she stuck around. Would I make that hire 99 times out of 100? No. Shoot without the conversation we had i wouldnt make that hire 100/100. Would a coach like ours bring in the guy that transfers every year? Most likely not. So a kid hurts themselves by doing that. But that's their lessen to learn.

And shoot, some people get bored and jump around alot. It's not a character issue, it's just what drives them. You're still less likely to bring them in. But if you know what you're getting and if you deem the value that you're getting worth it, then you bring them in with eyes wide open. And that's your risk to take. :D



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Re: Noah Smith in portal

Post by BelligerentBobcat » Sat May 06, 2023 6:17 am

Cataholic wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 11:53 am
ilovethecats wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 9:27 am
Cataholic wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 8:46 am
ilovethecats wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 8:08 am
Hi-Line Bobcat wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 9:51 pm
BelligerentBobcat wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 8:40 pm
I know this might be shocking, but players did in fact transfer before the transfer portal was a thing.
The transfer rules were way better pre portal. You transfer down=play right away. Transfer up=sit out a year. Transfer unilaterally=sit out a year. If for one second anybody thinks what’s going on right now is good, they have their head up their own ass. Don’t compare it to coaches leaving for higher pay, because that’s how it works. You go to a school to work for a boss and guess what, the boss makes the rules. That’s how it should be and the cupcake, “oh players should be able to do what they want to crowd”, are the ones who have never ran a business or company.
:lol:
This had me laughing. I appreciate your posts, but man do we disagree on this one.

Ironically I currently own four of my own business, was a college athlete, and don't consider myself part of any "cupcake crowd".

Just love seeing players having the same control over their education and futures as every other student at the university.
The portal has really benefitted the bigger schools. The better players at lower level schools (FCS and G5) now have a formal system to “announce and advertise” they are available for recruitment again. Of course, FCS gets the unhappy players from FBS schools. But this shifting seems to be making FBS better and FCS (and G5) weaker. If the NCAA’s role was to protect competition and provide a level playing field, they have failed dramatically.

You are correct on athletes gaining more flexibility similar to regular college students, but most college kids don’t get the bulk of college paid for. When you played in college, weren’t you looking forward to being at that school for all 4 years when you committed? I don’t think that is the case anymore. Mentality of the college athlete has changed to one of a minor league systems toward an eventual a pay day which now includes NIL money in college.
I think the FBS will continue to be stronger than the FCS. But I also believe that's how it has always been.

For me, I committed and expected to be at the school for four years. I also had dreams of being all conference amongst other things. None of those things happened and I was no longer an athlete after 2 years, instead just a student. But that was just my experience. Other teammates were there for four years. Others left for other schools.

My personal opinion is players commit to a school with visions of being there. But things change. Circumstances change. Coaches change. Teammates change. Majors change. Maybe there is homesickness? Personal issues. Maybe it's as simple as playing time. There are a plethora of reasons why ALL students leave MSU to find a better fit one way or another. I don't have a problem with it being the same for the athletes, even though as a fan of the teams I may see players leave. I say good for them.

And as always we'll continue getting the players from FBS schools looking for the same thing; a better fit and likely more playing time doing what they love to do.
Yes, I agree on list of your points. But a key difference was that FCS was not considered a developmental league for FBS. That is gradually happening. Basically, get recognized as first team All Conference and a larger school will pick you up with better pay and benefits. That was not happening in the past.

Also contributing to player departures are the societal changes in youth. Transfers always happened in the past, but now it seems much more frequent. I think a lot of it kids are not willing to wait for their chance. Smith is a freshman. Whatever happened to trusting the process, developing and waiting for your chance?

Sorry for the old guy rant as times have changed. I always have to reminded myself that these are kids and they might be leaving for personal reasons, like being homesick. Best of luck to Mr Smith. I hope he gets a chance somewhere else.
On the flip side, Smith would have had a better chance at playing time if MSU hadn’t brought in so many transfer WR’s. He got recruited over, plain and simple.

Now I have no problem with this. Welcome to sports. I just find it interesting the people who complain about players transferring out for a better opportunity for themselves never complain about the players transferring in for a better opportunity for themselves.



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Re: Noah Smith in portal

Post by Bobcat4Ever » Sat May 06, 2023 9:18 am

ilovethecats wrote:
Sat May 06, 2023 2:52 am
tetoncat wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 7:37 pm
lutecat wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 5:49 pm
Ilovethecats is right. Everyone else is wrong. Nuff said.

To say that people okay with the portal have never run a business I counter with some of us that have run a business that know what true leadership means want the best for the people that work for us. Even if sometimes it means they move on to better and bigger and brighter. It sucked when I lost the best employee that I ever had. But I was excited that she was accepting a new challenge in life.
I agree if they move to better, brighter, bigger. but the portal seems to have created a large pool that isn't getting any of those three. Sideways moves, 3 or 4 schools in 5 years. Wouldn't you be concerned hiring someone who moved laterally every year.
Yes but you’re looking at it through fan glasses. It may not look bigger, better or brighter to YOU when looking at kids transferring. However, even a “lateral” move from a fan standpoint may be a much bigger and better move for the kid actually doing the playing and schooling.

I just can’t wrap my head around the fact that collegiate athletics seems to be the ONE thing in which people get upset when a student decides to change his situation. Every single one of us would leave our current situation for more money, love, happiness, closer to family, city we love, better cost of living, new experiences, etc. That’s all these kids are doing.
I think the difference is — nobody buys expensive season tickets to watch you at work.



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Re: Noah Smith in portal

Post by tetoncat » Sat May 06, 2023 4:48 pm

BelligerentBobcat wrote:
Sat May 06, 2023 6:17 am
Cataholic wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 11:53 am
ilovethecats wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 9:27 am
Cataholic wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 8:46 am
ilovethecats wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 8:08 am
Hi-Line Bobcat wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 9:51 pm
BelligerentBobcat wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 8:40 pm
I know this might be shocking, but players did in fact transfer before the transfer portal was a thing.
The transfer rules were way better pre portal. You transfer down=play right away. Transfer up=sit out a year. Transfer unilaterally=sit out a year. If for one second anybody thinks what’s going on right now is good, they have their head up their own ass. Don’t compare it to coaches leaving for higher pay, because that’s how it works. You go to a school to work for a boss and guess what, the boss makes the rules. That’s how it should be and the cupcake, “oh players should be able to do what they want to crowd”, are the ones who have never ran a business or company.
:lol:
This had me laughing. I appreciate your posts, but man do we disagree on this one.

Ironically I currently own four of my own business, was a college athlete, and don't consider myself part of any "cupcake crowd".

Just love seeing players having the same control over their education and futures as every other student at the university.
The portal has really benefitted the bigger schools. The better players at lower level schools (FCS and G5) now have a formal system to “announce and advertise” they are available for recruitment again. Of course, FCS gets the unhappy players from FBS schools. But this shifting seems to be making FBS better and FCS (and G5) weaker. If the NCAA’s role was to protect competition and provide a level playing field, they have failed dramatically.

You are correct on athletes gaining more flexibility similar to regular college students, but most college kids don’t get the bulk of college paid for. When you played in college, weren’t you looking forward to being at that school for all 4 years when you committed? I don’t think that is the case anymore. Mentality of the college athlete has changed to one of a minor league systems toward an eventual a pay day which now includes NIL money in college.
I think the FBS will continue to be stronger than the FCS. But I also believe that's how it has always been.

For me, I committed and expected to be at the school for four years. I also had dreams of being all conference amongst other things. None of those things happened and I was no longer an athlete after 2 years, instead just a student. But that was just my experience. Other teammates were there for four years. Others left for other schools.

My personal opinion is players commit to a school with visions of being there. But things change. Circumstances change. Coaches change. Teammates change. Majors change. Maybe there is homesickness? Personal issues. Maybe it's as simple as playing time. There are a plethora of reasons why ALL students leave MSU to find a better fit one way or another. I don't have a problem with it being the same for the athletes, even though as a fan of the teams I may see players leave. I say good for them.

And as always we'll continue getting the players from FBS schools looking for the same thing; a better fit and likely more playing time doing what they love to do.
Yes, I agree on list of your points. But a key difference was that FCS was not considered a developmental league for FBS. That is gradually happening. Basically, get recognized as first team All Conference and a larger school will pick you up with better pay and benefits. That was not happening in the past.

Also contributing to player departures are the societal changes in youth. Transfers always happened in the past, but now it seems much more frequent. I think a lot of it kids are not willing to wait for their chance. Smith is a freshman. Whatever happened to trusting the process, developing and waiting for your chance?

Sorry for the old guy rant as times have changed. I always have to reminded myself that these are kids and they might be leaving for personal reasons, like being homesick. Best of luck to Mr Smith. I hope he gets a chance somewhere else.
On the flip side, Smith would have had a better chance at playing time if MSU hadn’t brought in so many transfer WR’s. He got recruited over, plain and simple.

Now I have no problem with this. Welcome to sports. I just find it interesting the people who complain about players transferring out for a better opportunity for themselves never complain about the players transferring in for a better opportunity for themselves.
Yes they do. There are several who have commented on the portal in general. Has MSU gotten some benefit, sure, but has lost plenty that could have had great season here. Losing over 1/2 the roster in basketball in short order has opened discussion on if this is sustainable.
I find it interesting some think a school should offer 17 or 18 year old kids and pay 4 years of school, housing, meals, training, whether or not that player ends up good enough to play or not. Should we guarantee that and also allow them to bolt at any times.
It seems to me that we have gone to an extreme in short order. Also seems like some athletes make choices to transfer and end up with no home.


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Cataholic
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Re: Noah Smith in portal

Post by Cataholic » Sat May 06, 2023 8:26 pm

tetoncat wrote:
Sat May 06, 2023 4:48 pm
BelligerentBobcat wrote:
Sat May 06, 2023 6:17 am
Cataholic wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 11:53 am
ilovethecats wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 9:27 am
Cataholic wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 8:46 am
ilovethecats wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 8:08 am
Hi-Line Bobcat wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 9:51 pm
BelligerentBobcat wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 8:40 pm
I know this might be shocking, but players did in fact transfer before the transfer portal was a thing.
The transfer rules were way better pre portal. You transfer down=play right away. Transfer up=sit out a year. Transfer unilaterally=sit out a year. If for one second anybody thinks what’s going on right now is good, they have their head up their own ass. Don’t compare it to coaches leaving for higher pay, because that’s how it works. You go to a school to work for a boss and guess what, the boss makes the rules. That’s how it should be and the cupcake, “oh players should be able to do what they want to crowd”, are the ones who have never ran a business or company.
:lol:
This had me laughing. I appreciate your posts, but man do we disagree on this one.

Ironically I currently own four of my own business, was a college athlete, and don't consider myself part of any "cupcake crowd".

Just love seeing players having the same control over their education and futures as every other student at the university.
The portal has really benefitted the bigger schools. The better players at lower level schools (FCS and G5) now have a formal system to “announce and advertise” they are available for recruitment again. Of course, FCS gets the unhappy players from FBS schools. But this shifting seems to be making FBS better and FCS (and G5) weaker. If the NCAA’s role was to protect competition and provide a level playing field, they have failed dramatically.

You are correct on athletes gaining more flexibility similar to regular college students, but most college kids don’t get the bulk of college paid for. When you played in college, weren’t you looking forward to being at that school for all 4 years when you committed? I don’t think that is the case anymore. Mentality of the college athlete has changed to one of a minor league systems toward an eventual a pay day which now includes NIL money in college.
I think the FBS will continue to be stronger than the FCS. But I also believe that's how it has always been.

For me, I committed and expected to be at the school for four years. I also had dreams of being all conference amongst other things. None of those things happened and I was no longer an athlete after 2 years, instead just a student. But that was just my experience. Other teammates were there for four years. Others left for other schools.

My personal opinion is players commit to a school with visions of being there. But things change. Circumstances change. Coaches change. Teammates change. Majors change. Maybe there is homesickness? Personal issues. Maybe it's as simple as playing time. There are a plethora of reasons why ALL students leave MSU to find a better fit one way or another. I don't have a problem with it being the same for the athletes, even though as a fan of the teams I may see players leave. I say good for them.

And as always we'll continue getting the players from FBS schools looking for the same thing; a better fit and likely more playing time doing what they love to do.
Yes, I agree on list of your points. But a key difference was that FCS was not considered a developmental league for FBS. That is gradually happening. Basically, get recognized as first team All Conference and a larger school will pick you up with better pay and benefits. That was not happening in the past.

Also contributing to player departures are the societal changes in youth. Transfers always happened in the past, but now it seems much more frequent. I think a lot of it kids are not willing to wait for their chance. Smith is a freshman. Whatever happened to trusting the process, developing and waiting for your chance?

Sorry for the old guy rant as times have changed. I always have to reminded myself that these are kids and they might be leaving for personal reasons, like being homesick. Best of luck to Mr Smith. I hope he gets a chance somewhere else.
On the flip side, Smith would have had a better chance at playing time if MSU hadn’t brought in so many transfer WR’s. He got recruited over, plain and simple.

Now I have no problem with this. Welcome to sports. I just find it interesting the people who complain about players transferring out for a better opportunity for themselves never complain about the players transferring in for a better opportunity for themselves.
Yes they do. There are several who have commented on the portal in general. Has MSU gotten some benefit, sure, but has lost plenty that could have had great season here. Losing over 1/2 the roster in basketball in short order has opened discussion on if this is sustainable.
I find it interesting some think a school should offer 17 or 18 year old kids and pay 4 years of school, housing, meals, training, whether or not that player ends up good enough to play or not. Should we guarantee that and also allow them to bolt at any times.
It seems to me that we have gone to an extreme in short order. Also seems like some athletes make choices to transfer and end up with no home.
This year’s basketball roster losses are an anomaly. We lost our head coach and some guys went with him. Our main stud went to a Top 25 program. But losing 8 guys to the portal is not going to happen every year.

Football is mostly guys looking for more playing time. That has always been an issue.



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Re: Noah Smith in portal

Post by kennethnoisewater » Sun May 07, 2023 12:09 pm

tetoncat wrote:
Sat May 06, 2023 4:48 pm
Yes they do. There are several who have commented on the portal in general. Has MSU gotten some benefit, sure, but has lost plenty that could have had great season here. Losing over 1/2 the roster in basketball in short order has opened discussion on if this is sustainable.
I find it interesting some think a school should offer 17 or 18 year old kids and pay 4 years of school, housing, meals, training, whether or not that player ends up good enough to play or not. Should we guarantee that and also allow them to bolt at any times.
It seems to me that we have gone to an extreme in short order. Also seems like some athletes make choices to transfer and end up with no home.
Organizations like the NCAA (and the MHSA in HS sports) really have no legal say in what players do. They set up rules for fairness, but when those rules are pushed in the legal system, they know they have little ability to govern what individuals do. Things got pushed hard with the NCAA and they had to come up with a plan to let people do what they are legally allowed to do. In my opinion the transfer portal in its current arrangement is a kneejerk reaction to outside pressure. I think kids deserve to move to places that are a better fit. I wish they wouldn't, and I wish there were more deterrents to it to make them think twice. But when a non-governmental agency tries to tell a person it's illegal for them to leave a school and pursue opportunities at another school, they can quickly run into some legal trouble. I don't believe it's within the rights of an agency like the NCAA to bind someone to a school with the old penalties that were in place. There's a part of me that wishes they could, but there's also a part of me that knows there are cases where things change and an athlete should be able to look elsewhere. Plenty of non-athletes transfer schools because their academic interests change. Athletes should be able to pursue different academic opportunities. Plenty of athletes are recruited by a coaching staff they love, and that coaching staff is the reason they're there. I don't think it's unreasonable for them to be able to follow that coaching staff or find another one they love. Plenty of athletes find themselves recruited over and don't have an opportunity to play, and I don't blame them for wanting to look elsewhere. These are situations where I like the transfer portal. There are others where I don't like it, but how do you put rules in place for only "good" reasons? That's been tried and it got the NCAA in trouble.

If we were college baseball or college hockey fans, we'd have a different viewpoint on it, I think. There are more non-college ways to get into the pros in those sports. Tons of great baseball and hockey players skip college altogether and play minor leagues, or major junior leagues in hockey. In football and basketball, you can pretty much count on the best players taking the college route. But for how long? Will FB and BB put together semi-pro leagues that give similar or better opportunities to improve and get ready for the pros? If so, what's the benefit of going to college where you know you'll be trapped by contracts and not have the opportunity to make money? I know that's where FCOA and NIL come into play, but even if you hate those things, you could make the argument those things are actually helping SAVE college athletics. I get it if you think they're ruining college athletics, but I think you have to look upstream from that. I'd argue the opportunities given by pro sports these days might be ruining college sports more than recent changes within the NCAA.

There's more to it than this, sure, but this post is long-winded enough.


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BelligerentBobcat
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Re: Noah Smith in portal

Post by BelligerentBobcat » Sun May 07, 2023 12:14 pm

tetoncat wrote:
Sat May 06, 2023 4:48 pm
BelligerentBobcat wrote:
Sat May 06, 2023 6:17 am
Cataholic wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 11:53 am
ilovethecats wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 9:27 am
Cataholic wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 8:46 am
ilovethecats wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 8:08 am
Hi-Line Bobcat wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 9:51 pm
BelligerentBobcat wrote:
Thu May 04, 2023 8:40 pm
I know this might be shocking, but players did in fact transfer before the transfer portal was a thing.
The transfer rules were way better pre portal. You transfer down=play right away. Transfer up=sit out a year. Transfer unilaterally=sit out a year. If for one second anybody thinks what’s going on right now is good, they have their head up their own ass. Don’t compare it to coaches leaving for higher pay, because that’s how it works. You go to a school to work for a boss and guess what, the boss makes the rules. That’s how it should be and the cupcake, “oh players should be able to do what they want to crowd”, are the ones who have never ran a business or company.
:lol:
This had me laughing. I appreciate your posts, but man do we disagree on this one.

Ironically I currently own four of my own business, was a college athlete, and don't consider myself part of any "cupcake crowd".

Just love seeing players having the same control over their education and futures as every other student at the university.
The portal has really benefitted the bigger schools. The better players at lower level schools (FCS and G5) now have a formal system to “announce and advertise” they are available for recruitment again. Of course, FCS gets the unhappy players from FBS schools. But this shifting seems to be making FBS better and FCS (and G5) weaker. If the NCAA’s role was to protect competition and provide a level playing field, they have failed dramatically.

You are correct on athletes gaining more flexibility similar to regular college students, but most college kids don’t get the bulk of college paid for. When you played in college, weren’t you looking forward to being at that school for all 4 years when you committed? I don’t think that is the case anymore. Mentality of the college athlete has changed to one of a minor league systems toward an eventual a pay day which now includes NIL money in college.
I think the FBS will continue to be stronger than the FCS. But I also believe that's how it has always been.

For me, I committed and expected to be at the school for four years. I also had dreams of being all conference amongst other things. None of those things happened and I was no longer an athlete after 2 years, instead just a student. But that was just my experience. Other teammates were there for four years. Others left for other schools.

My personal opinion is players commit to a school with visions of being there. But things change. Circumstances change. Coaches change. Teammates change. Majors change. Maybe there is homesickness? Personal issues. Maybe it's as simple as playing time. There are a plethora of reasons why ALL students leave MSU to find a better fit one way or another. I don't have a problem with it being the same for the athletes, even though as a fan of the teams I may see players leave. I say good for them.

And as always we'll continue getting the players from FBS schools looking for the same thing; a better fit and likely more playing time doing what they love to do.
Yes, I agree on list of your points. But a key difference was that FCS was not considered a developmental league for FBS. That is gradually happening. Basically, get recognized as first team All Conference and a larger school will pick you up with better pay and benefits. That was not happening in the past.

Also contributing to player departures are the societal changes in youth. Transfers always happened in the past, but now it seems much more frequent. I think a lot of it kids are not willing to wait for their chance. Smith is a freshman. Whatever happened to trusting the process, developing and waiting for your chance?

Sorry for the old guy rant as times have changed. I always have to reminded myself that these are kids and they might be leaving for personal reasons, like being homesick. Best of luck to Mr Smith. I hope he gets a chance somewhere else.
On the flip side, Smith would have had a better chance at playing time if MSU hadn’t brought in so many transfer WR’s. He got recruited over, plain and simple.

Now I have no problem with this. Welcome to sports. I just find it interesting the people who complain about players transferring out for a better opportunity for themselves never complain about the players transferring in for a better opportunity for themselves.
Yes they do. There are several who have commented on the portal in general. Has MSU gotten some benefit, sure, but has lost plenty that could have had great season here. Losing over 1/2 the roster in basketball in short order has opened discussion on if this is sustainable.
I find it interesting some think a school should offer 17 or 18 year old kids and pay 4 years of school, housing, meals, training, whether or not that player ends up good enough to play or not. Should we guarantee that and also allow them to bolt at any times.
It seems to me that we have gone to an extreme in short order. Also seems like some athletes make choices to transfer and end up with no home.
I’ve never argued for or against 4 year scholarships, fwiw.

With that said, schools prefer the one year scholarships because it’s easier to dump players if they want. Nobody has a problem with that, but if they players want to move on, it’s an issue? I just don’t buy into that.

The basketball team had transfers primarily because of a coaching change. It happens. Don’t think it’s emblematic of any long term concerns or issues.



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CelticCat
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Re: Noah Smith in portal

Post by CelticCat » Sun May 07, 2023 12:24 pm

kennethnoisewater wrote:
Sun May 07, 2023 12:09 pm
tetoncat wrote:
Sat May 06, 2023 4:48 pm
Yes they do. There are several who have commented on the portal in general. Has MSU gotten some benefit, sure, but has lost plenty that could have had great season here. Losing over 1/2 the roster in basketball in short order has opened discussion on if this is sustainable.
I find it interesting some think a school should offer 17 or 18 year old kids and pay 4 years of school, housing, meals, training, whether or not that player ends up good enough to play or not. Should we guarantee that and also allow them to bolt at any times.
It seems to me that we have gone to an extreme in short order. Also seems like some athletes make choices to transfer and end up with no home.
Organizations like the NCAA (and the MHSA in HS sports) really have no legal say in what players do. They set up rules for fairness, but when those rules are pushed in the legal system, they know they have little ability to govern what individuals do. Things got pushed hard with the NCAA and they had to come up with a plan to let people do what they are legally allowed to do. In my opinion the transfer portal in its current arrangement is a kneejerk reaction to outside pressure. I think kids deserve to move to places that are a better fit. I wish they wouldn't, and I wish there were more deterrents to it to make them think twice. But when a non-governmental agency tries to tell a person it's illegal for them to leave a school and pursue opportunities at another school, they can quickly run into some legal trouble. I don't believe it's within the rights of an agency like the NCAA to bind someone to a school with the old penalties that were in place. There's a part of me that wishes they could, but there's also a part of me that knows there are cases where things change and an athlete should be able to look elsewhere. Plenty of non-athletes transfer schools because their academic interests change. Athletes should be able to pursue different academic opportunities. Plenty of athletes are recruited by a coaching staff they love, and that coaching staff is the reason they're there. I don't think it's unreasonable for them to be able to follow that coaching staff or find another one they love. Plenty of athletes find themselves recruited over and don't have an opportunity to play, and I don't blame them for wanting to look elsewhere. These are situations where I like the transfer portal. There are others where I don't like it, but how do you put rules in place for only "good" reasons? That's been tried and it got the NCAA in trouble.

If we were college baseball or college hockey fans, we'd have a different viewpoint on it, I think. There are more non-college ways to get into the pros in those sports. Tons of great baseball and hockey players skip college altogether and play minor leagues, or major junior leagues in hockey. In football and basketball, you can pretty much count on the best players taking the college route. But for how long? Will FB and BB put together semi-pro leagues that give similar or better opportunities to improve and get ready for the pros? If so, what's the benefit of going to college where you know you'll be trapped by contracts and not have the opportunity to make money? I know that's where FCOA and NIL come into play, but even if you hate those things, you could make the argument those things are actually helping SAVE college athletics. I get it if you think they're ruining college athletics, but I think you have to look upstream from that. I'd argue the opportunities given by pro sports these days might be ruining college sports more than recent changes within the NCAA.

There's more to it than this, sure, but this post is long-winded enough.
Great post. People really started looking at how the NCAA prevents athletes from moving freely from school to school and it became sort of clear that they shouldn't really have the authority to restrict a legal adult's ability to move schools and programs as they choose. And you are 100% right that you can't decipher which reasons are valid and which aren't, it's way too subjective and also would require a ridiculous amount of manpower. Once that was realized and challenged, the only real option was for the dam to break completely.

Just because people like myself agree with the transfer portal doesn't mean I like it or that it's in the best interest of the player in the long-run, as it does make it easy to leave a bad situation and that might not set you up well in the game of life. But it really didn't make any sense for the NCAA to make those decisions for the athlete.


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ilovethecats
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Re: Noah Smith in portal

Post by ilovethecats » Thu May 11, 2023 9:51 am

Bobcat4Ever wrote:
Sat May 06, 2023 9:18 am
ilovethecats wrote:
Sat May 06, 2023 2:52 am
tetoncat wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 7:37 pm
lutecat wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 5:49 pm
Ilovethecats is right. Everyone else is wrong. Nuff said.

To say that people okay with the portal have never run a business I counter with some of us that have run a business that know what true leadership means want the best for the people that work for us. Even if sometimes it means they move on to better and bigger and brighter. It sucked when I lost the best employee that I ever had. But I was excited that she was accepting a new challenge in life.
I agree if they move to better, brighter, bigger. but the portal seems to have created a large pool that isn't getting any of those three. Sideways moves, 3 or 4 schools in 5 years. Wouldn't you be concerned hiring someone who moved laterally every year.
Yes but you’re looking at it through fan glasses. It may not look bigger, better or brighter to YOU when looking at kids transferring. However, even a “lateral” move from a fan standpoint may be a much bigger and better move for the kid actually doing the playing and schooling.

I just can’t wrap my head around the fact that collegiate athletics seems to be the ONE thing in which people get upset when a student decides to change his situation. Every single one of us would leave our current situation for more money, love, happiness, closer to family, city we love, better cost of living, new experiences, etc. That’s all these kids are doing.
I think the difference is — nobody buys expensive season tickets to watch you at work.
Obviously true.

But this is a job for these kids. And no one is forcing anyone to buy expensive season tickets. I think that's where the problem lies. People CHOOSE to spend money on something, and then feel like because of that CHOICE they have a say in what these kids should do.

If for some reason everyone was forced to by season tickets, or any tickets at all, I could see having a gripe and wanting to dictate what these guys do. But until that day comes people can spend money on whatever they want, but it doesn't necessarily give them a right to tell these coaches and players what they should be doing.



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luckyirishguy25
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Re: Noah Smith in portal

Post by luckyirishguy25 » Thu May 11, 2023 9:54 am

ilovethecats wrote:
Thu May 11, 2023 9:51 am
Bobcat4Ever wrote:
Sat May 06, 2023 9:18 am
ilovethecats wrote:
Sat May 06, 2023 2:52 am
tetoncat wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 7:37 pm
lutecat wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 5:49 pm
Ilovethecats is right. Everyone else is wrong. Nuff said.

To say that people okay with the portal have never run a business I counter with some of us that have run a business that know what true leadership means want the best for the people that work for us. Even if sometimes it means they move on to better and bigger and brighter. It sucked when I lost the best employee that I ever had. But I was excited that she was accepting a new challenge in life.
I agree if they move to better, brighter, bigger. but the portal seems to have created a large pool that isn't getting any of those three. Sideways moves, 3 or 4 schools in 5 years. Wouldn't you be concerned hiring someone who moved laterally every year.
Yes but you’re looking at it through fan glasses. It may not look bigger, better or brighter to YOU when looking at kids transferring. However, even a “lateral” move from a fan standpoint may be a much bigger and better move for the kid actually doing the playing and schooling.

I just can’t wrap my head around the fact that collegiate athletics seems to be the ONE thing in which people get upset when a student decides to change his situation. Every single one of us would leave our current situation for more money, love, happiness, closer to family, city we love, better cost of living, new experiences, etc. That’s all these kids are doing.
I think the difference is — nobody buys expensive season tickets to watch you at work.
Obviously true.

But this is a job for these kids. And no one is forcing anyone to buy expensive season tickets. I think that's where the problem lies. People CHOOSE to spend money on something, and then feel like because of that CHOICE they have a say in what these kids should do.

If for some reason everyone was forced to by season tickets, or any tickets at all, I could see having a gripe and wanting to dictate what these guys do. But until that day comes people can spend money on whatever they want, but it doesn't necessarily give them a right to tell these coaches and players what they should be doing.
You really can't say it better, good post.



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Bobcat4Ever
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Re: Noah Smith in portal

Post by Bobcat4Ever » Thu May 11, 2023 10:43 am

I just had to buy a new washer and dryer (the machine’s choice) and I made my choice. Cost roughly the same as season tickets for two. The weird thing is, they came with this 10-year warranty thingie. At least if the product goes downhill, there is some recompense. I do realize season tickets are (can) be purchased annually after the spring game. But if you want to keep your seats, you cannot pick and choose good years and bad without suffering your loss of seating and seating privilege. It might not be apples and oranges, but it still lacks a total right of free agency for the fan — without loss. Just sayin’, it’s not all really quite the same.

I guess we really, really old guys feel that a highly transient roster doesn’t represent MSU as well as a more stable system, none of which are as good as when the chemistry professor/head football coach nailed a notice to a power pole inviting the students to show up for tryouts from which that year’s team would be named. 😂 🦕



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Re: Noah Smith in portal

Post by tetoncat » Thu May 11, 2023 3:42 pm

ilovethecats wrote:
Thu May 11, 2023 9:51 am
Bobcat4Ever wrote:
Sat May 06, 2023 9:18 am
ilovethecats wrote:
Sat May 06, 2023 2:52 am
tetoncat wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 7:37 pm
lutecat wrote:
Fri May 05, 2023 5:49 pm
Ilovethecats is right. Everyone else is wrong. Nuff said.

To say that people okay with the portal have never run a business I counter with some of us that have run a business that know what true leadership means want the best for the people that work for us. Even if sometimes it means they move on to better and bigger and brighter. It sucked when I lost the best employee that I ever had. But I was excited that she was accepting a new challenge in life.
I agree if they move to better, brighter, bigger. but the portal seems to have created a large pool that isn't getting any of those three. Sideways moves, 3 or 4 schools in 5 years. Wouldn't you be concerned hiring someone who moved laterally every year.
Yes but you’re looking at it through fan glasses. It may not look bigger, better or brighter to YOU when looking at kids transferring. However, even a “lateral” move from a fan standpoint may be a much bigger and better move for the kid actually doing the playing and schooling.

I just can’t wrap my head around the fact that collegiate athletics seems to be the ONE thing in which people get upset when a student decides to change his situation. Every single one of us would leave our current situation for more money, love, happiness, closer to family, city we love, better cost of living, new experiences, etc. That’s all these kids are doing.
I think the difference is — nobody buys expensive season tickets to watch you at work.
Obviously true.

But this is a job for these kids. And no one is forcing anyone to buy expensive season tickets. I think that's where the problem lies. People CHOOSE to spend money on something, and then feel like because of that CHOICE they have a say in what these kids should do.

If for some reason everyone was forced to by season tickets, or any tickets at all, I could see having a gripe and wanting to dictate what these guys do. But until that day comes people can spend money on whatever they want, but it doesn't necessarily give them a right to tell these coaches and players what they should be doing.

You are somewhat confirming what a few of us are saying. While no one is forcing anyone to buy, but it is a choice, and if too many choose to not buy, won't that impact the program.
I am not sure I have seen a post tell a player or coach what to do. There have been post expressing displeasure, and questioning why some of them leave.
What players and coaches do, impacts the fan experience. If fans leave because of it then it will impact the player and coach.


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ThoughtUKnew14
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Re: Noah Smith in portal

Post by ThoughtUKnew14 » Sun May 14, 2023 5:10 pm

Hate to see it, but I understand. I was a Noah fan and thought he could develop into a contributor. However, the new model is in place (bring in FBS guys and make them automatic starters) and it’s what MSU will continue to do year after year IMO. Why not, its worked, right!

I said it a few months back that there would be more leaving the WR room and its happened…There will be more to come as well. I don’t like it, but I understand it. Its easier on coaches and over staff.



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