Moving up

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Pecos24
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Re: Moving up

Post by Pecos24 » Mon May 15, 2023 7:13 am

Yet another article discussing the realignment moves going on among the P5 conferences.

https://www.si.com/college/2023/05/15/c ... onferences


Bill Zander
CS '93
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Prodigal Cat
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Re: Moving up

Post by Prodigal Cat » Mon May 15, 2023 8:00 am

utucats wrote:
Sat May 13, 2023 8:10 am
Prodigal Cat wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 7:50 am
utucats wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 6:59 am
Colter_Nuanez wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 11:23 pm
utucats wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 10:46 pm
Colter_Nuanez wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 3:53 pm
GoCats18 wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 12:50 pm
We can’t even win a National Championship at this level. Why would people want to watch us play for a the chance at a bowl game? This would be a huge mistake. The fan base would drop to below 10,000 fans per game. It would destroy our program. Just look at Idaho. There is a reason they came back to the Big Sky.
Totally disagree. Bobcat Stadium is packed on Saturdays because it's the place to be. It's a premier and one of a kind event that people don't want to miss. It's the same thing in Missoula. Like an old athletic director used to always say: "It's not about winning. It's about the hope of winning. If you win consistently for awhile, then people will have the hope of winning forever."

Montana State would have to be absolutely terrible for 10+ years in a row AND have a style that was unappealing to watch AND have a terrible coach for people to completely stop coming to games. And that wouldn't happen. If MSU was FBS, they could out-recruit at least half the league simply based on Bozeman being a way more desirable destination than Laramie or Reno or San Jose or wherever.
Sorry Colter but I could not disagree with you more. Back when Kramer was coaching and Lulay came in we started to see the winning increasing and since then the game day experience has steadily grown. During that time and especially the years leading up to it, there were only a few thousand people attending non Cat griz games. One season we bought end zone season tickets because Cat griz was in Missoula so every game all one needed to do was get in and seating was pretty much whatever you wanted. We were drinking then so your statement that the booze is bringing Montanans is not correct.

Winning is important. Competing at a high level is important. I like Montana the way it has been. We are a rural state and our colleges are smaller schools. I hope we stay FCS forever. I have no desire to try and pretend to be a bigger deal than we are.

You are right that we have an amazing game day experience. If it ain’t broke don’t try to fix it.
This is what I’ve been trying to say on my show tho…it IS broken. Montana State generates the second most football revenue of any program in the Big Sky and one of the top 5 in the country. Yet when the final numbers come down for athletic department budget, the Cats make next to nothing.

Meanwhile, UC Davis has about 8,000 total people who care about football yet are about to build a new stadium. NAU just built a $44 million facility almost exclusively with state and student money, no real fundraising. All the fans in the Big Sky outside of Montana would have a hard time filling the two Montana stadiums. Yet the playing field is equal because the business model is broken.

The Cats and the Griz have the least amount of money to reinvest because each gets less than 50 percent of its athletic budget subsidized. This issue is compounded by the fact that at least half the league receives 70 percent subsidization and a few schools get more than 80 percent.

That’s not an equal playing field. That’s legislating to the lowest common denominator.

You want to know why most of you think Big Sky officiating sucks? Because it does. You want to know why you think the league’s administration is bush league?? Because it is.

You are who you hang out with. Northern Colorado’s
Locker room is like a mile from its D2 stadium. More people go to Bozeman Gallatin football games than NAU games. Portland State plays at a high school field, and it’s not even the nicest high school field in the area. Given the state of affairs in college sports, Idaho State might never field a winner ever again. Weber State just had its greatest coach in school history, tripled its number of all time playoff appearances and went on its first few playoff runs….how much did attendance increase? Not one bit. Still drawing a crowd that would turn out in Butte to watch the Bulldogs against Bozeman…

When you talk about the olden days, I get where you’re coming from. But that ain’t it anymore. Montana State is big league athletics and the football experience is one of the best in the West. From the rodeo team entrance to the spirit of the West to the engagement of the fans to the tailgates to the radio broadcasts to the media coverage to the scenery, I can’t really think of a scenario short of a full on catastrophic event that would deter people from coming to Bobcat Stadium in droves. You’d get at the very least three home teams better than you could ever get now from in the conference. And then you can get real home and homes, not just McNeese State or Bryant.

Let’s say MSU had a league to land in and BOR approval. And Cruzado is still president, Leon still AD and Vigen still head coach. And they get 22 more scholarships. That team is really competitive in the Mountain West right away. You’d add a $4-8 million revenue stream from TV. Waded would fully jolt
Fundraising and raise eight figures. You’d get more state money.

This is all a business. Doesn’t matter if you don’t like the thought it’s all about money. It’s all about money! Danny Sprinkle and the Big Sky All stars are all in Logan because of money. RaeQuan Battle is at West Virginia because of money.

And think of the publicity if MSU made a move. Nevada Reno and Wyoming coming on Bobcat Stadium for the first time in years….or better yet the second or third time after already being there….those coaches gushing in fear over Bobcat Stadium…I’ve been to most the stadiums in the Mountain West. The Montana schools are more raucous and wild for sure.

The Cats and the Griz just can’t get caught with their pants down playing in a division where the rivalry game is the conference AND national championship game. To me,
That makes it a fully diluted product. And this is coming from someone who has dedicated more than half my life to covering the Big Sky Conference…
I don’t agree that this is all a business. It is more than that and there are other considerations other than just solely making money. Even if we look at it from purely a business perspective, it is surprising that your take is that us funding all these programs and paying for this great game day experience with all the trimmings (rodeo team entrance, Spirit of the West) while continually improving facilities (paved parking/tailgating, BAC, new video board, South end zone, new field, rebranding, etc.) and doing that with less subsidies and somehow you find that system broken? Or your point is that since the other schools can’t do the same that we have an unfair advantage? Or maybe if we got 70% subsidized that would make it fair for us? Call me crazy but not needing assistance always seemed to me to be a marker of success. You’ll have to clear that up for me because I’m not understanding that point.

I also think you are way overhyping the impact of Wyoming showing up at Bobcat Stadium. The publicity? Is ESPN gonna come running and wanting it on prime time? No. In the whole college football market we have a very small footprint and that doesn’t change at all with a move up.

I look at schools like Wyoming with pity for having nothing real to play for. They are never going to win a championship. You talk about an unfair system, does us moving to a system where we have to accept never finishing #1 a fair system? I don’t think so.

We have a great rivalry, great venues, amazing fan support and we are the Big Sky conference. FCS football is truly becoming more and more about Montana State and the Dakotas. I love that fact. We built all of this in a broken model/system.

I appreciate your opinion but I think it is naive. This is an argument about priorities. Your take is simply that money matters more than winning. I disagree.
Wrong. They seek after a Mountain West Championship and I honestly might value that down the road as well, more than an FCS title with the current trend in this division. You take out us and the DSU's are you really proud of that? That you knocked off Incarnate Word, Bill and Mary, northsouthwest state u on the way to a title? NDSU and SDSU aren't long for the FCS and once they are gone are we really happy being the highschooler beating up on the third graders during recess? We shouldn't be the last one to leave the party.
Those FCS titles come so easy that we haven’t won one in nearly 40 years.
Reading comprehension is not your bag eh? I said I might down the road when SDSU and NDSU are gone. If you remove those 2 teams you could reasonably argue that MSU would have won a couple of titles in the last 4 years and might even be defending 2 time champs currently.


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CodyCat
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Posts: 2061
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:49 pm
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Re: Moving up

Post by CodyCat » Mon May 15, 2023 9:21 am

Prodigal Cat wrote:
Mon May 15, 2023 8:00 am
utucats wrote:
Sat May 13, 2023 8:10 am
Prodigal Cat wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 7:50 am
utucats wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 6:59 am
Colter_Nuanez wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 11:23 pm
utucats wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 10:46 pm
Colter_Nuanez wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 3:53 pm
GoCats18 wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 12:50 pm
We can’t even win a National Championship at this level. Why would people want to watch us play for a the chance at a bowl game? This would be a huge mistake. The fan base would drop to below 10,000 fans per game. It would destroy our program. Just look at Idaho. There is a reason they came back to the Big Sky.
Totally disagree. Bobcat Stadium is packed on Saturdays because it's the place to be. It's a premier and one of a kind event that people don't want to miss. It's the same thing in Missoula. Like an old athletic director used to always say: "It's not about winning. It's about the hope of winning. If you win consistently for awhile, then people will have the hope of winning forever."

Montana State would have to be absolutely terrible for 10+ years in a row AND have a style that was unappealing to watch AND have a terrible coach for people to completely stop coming to games. And that wouldn't happen. If MSU was FBS, they could out-recruit at least half the league simply based on Bozeman being a way more desirable destination than Laramie or Reno or San Jose or wherever.
Sorry Colter but I could not disagree with you more. Back when Kramer was coaching and Lulay came in we started to see the winning increasing and since then the game day experience has steadily grown. During that time and especially the years leading up to it, there were only a few thousand people attending non Cat griz games. One season we bought end zone season tickets because Cat griz was in Missoula so every game all one needed to do was get in and seating was pretty much whatever you wanted. We were drinking then so your statement that the booze is bringing Montanans is not correct.

Winning is important. Competing at a high level is important. I like Montana the way it has been. We are a rural state and our colleges are smaller schools. I hope we stay FCS forever. I have no desire to try and pretend to be a bigger deal than we are.

You are right that we have an amazing game day experience. If it ain’t broke don’t try to fix it.
This is what I’ve been trying to say on my show tho…it IS broken. Montana State generates the second most football revenue of any program in the Big Sky and one of the top 5 in the country. Yet when the final numbers come down for athletic department budget, the Cats make next to nothing.

Meanwhile, UC Davis has about 8,000 total people who care about football yet are about to build a new stadium. NAU just built a $44 million facility almost exclusively with state and student money, no real fundraising. All the fans in the Big Sky outside of Montana would have a hard time filling the two Montana stadiums. Yet the playing field is equal because the business model is broken.

The Cats and the Griz have the least amount of money to reinvest because each gets less than 50 percent of its athletic budget subsidized. This issue is compounded by the fact that at least half the league receives 70 percent subsidization and a few schools get more than 80 percent.

That’s not an equal playing field. That’s legislating to the lowest common denominator.

You want to know why most of you think Big Sky officiating sucks? Because it does. You want to know why you think the league’s administration is bush league?? Because it is.

You are who you hang out with. Northern Colorado’s
Locker room is like a mile from its D2 stadium. More people go to Bozeman Gallatin football games than NAU games. Portland State plays at a high school field, and it’s not even the nicest high school field in the area. Given the state of affairs in college sports, Idaho State might never field a winner ever again. Weber State just had its greatest coach in school history, tripled its number of all time playoff appearances and went on its first few playoff runs….how much did attendance increase? Not one bit. Still drawing a crowd that would turn out in Butte to watch the Bulldogs against Bozeman…

When you talk about the olden days, I get where you’re coming from. But that ain’t it anymore. Montana State is big league athletics and the football experience is one of the best in the West. From the rodeo team entrance to the spirit of the West to the engagement of the fans to the tailgates to the radio broadcasts to the media coverage to the scenery, I can’t really think of a scenario short of a full on catastrophic event that would deter people from coming to Bobcat Stadium in droves. You’d get at the very least three home teams better than you could ever get now from in the conference. And then you can get real home and homes, not just McNeese State or Bryant.

Let’s say MSU had a league to land in and BOR approval. And Cruzado is still president, Leon still AD and Vigen still head coach. And they get 22 more scholarships. That team is really competitive in the Mountain West right away. You’d add a $4-8 million revenue stream from TV. Waded would fully jolt
Fundraising and raise eight figures. You’d get more state money.

This is all a business. Doesn’t matter if you don’t like the thought it’s all about money. It’s all about money! Danny Sprinkle and the Big Sky All stars are all in Logan because of money. RaeQuan Battle is at West Virginia because of money.

And think of the publicity if MSU made a move. Nevada Reno and Wyoming coming on Bobcat Stadium for the first time in years….or better yet the second or third time after already being there….those coaches gushing in fear over Bobcat Stadium…I’ve been to most the stadiums in the Mountain West. The Montana schools are more raucous and wild for sure.

The Cats and the Griz just can’t get caught with their pants down playing in a division where the rivalry game is the conference AND national championship game. To me,
That makes it a fully diluted product. And this is coming from someone who has dedicated more than half my life to covering the Big Sky Conference…
I don’t agree that this is all a business. It is more than that and there are other considerations other than just solely making money. Even if we look at it from purely a business perspective, it is surprising that your take is that us funding all these programs and paying for this great game day experience with all the trimmings (rodeo team entrance, Spirit of the West) while continually improving facilities (paved parking/tailgating, BAC, new video board, South end zone, new field, rebranding, etc.) and doing that with less subsidies and somehow you find that system broken? Or your point is that since the other schools can’t do the same that we have an unfair advantage? Or maybe if we got 70% subsidized that would make it fair for us? Call me crazy but not needing assistance always seemed to me to be a marker of success. You’ll have to clear that up for me because I’m not understanding that point.

I also think you are way overhyping the impact of Wyoming showing up at Bobcat Stadium. The publicity? Is ESPN gonna come running and wanting it on prime time? No. In the whole college football market we have a very small footprint and that doesn’t change at all with a move up.

I look at schools like Wyoming with pity for having nothing real to play for. They are never going to win a championship. You talk about an unfair system, does us moving to a system where we have to accept never finishing #1 a fair system? I don’t think so.

We have a great rivalry, great venues, amazing fan support and we are the Big Sky conference. FCS football is truly becoming more and more about Montana State and the Dakotas. I love that fact. We built all of this in a broken model/system.

I appreciate your opinion but I think it is naive. This is an argument about priorities. Your take is simply that money matters more than winning. I disagree.
Wrong. They seek after a Mountain West Championship and I honestly might value that down the road as well, more than an FCS title with the current trend in this division. You take out us and the DSU's are you really proud of that? That you knocked off Incarnate Word, Bill and Mary, northsouthwest state u on the way to a title? NDSU and SDSU aren't long for the FCS and once they are gone are we really happy being the highschooler beating up on the third graders during recess? We shouldn't be the last one to leave the party.
Those FCS titles come so easy that we haven’t won one in nearly 40 years.
Reading comprehension is not your bag eh? I said I might down the road when SDSU and NDSU are gone. If you remove those 2 teams you could reasonably argue that MSU would have won a couple of titles in the last 4 years and might even be defending 2 time champs currently.
I dont think we would have competed very well with JMU in 2022. So, maybe we would have won our first title this year. Maybe.


Hating the griz since 02.

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PapaG
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Re: Moving up

Post by PapaG » Mon May 15, 2023 9:50 am

Cataholic wrote:
Thu May 11, 2023 8:46 am
PapaG wrote:
Wed May 10, 2023 7:29 pm
Cataholic wrote:
Wed May 10, 2023 1:58 pm
PapaG wrote:
Wed May 10, 2023 11:59 am
The funding just isn’t there for moving to FBS and we have assistant coaches now housing together. Where does the money come from when we’re already putting 19,000 in the seats on Saturdays.

Maybe if MSU could not have failing enrollment Little Bro in Missoula attached it might be a possibility but the MWC doesn’t need us both as members. We’re a state of just over a million people. I moved back from a metro area of 2.5 million last year and it just doesn’t equate.
It has been mentioned multiple times that revenue could be generated in other areas - not just sports. With the wider footprint and larger exposure, an increase of just 500 students would generate $7.5 million in tuition at $15,000 per student.
Where does that revenue come from if not state taxpayers. We’re a nothing state only known for rich Flathead and Big Sky people along with a fictional TV show who are from their own universities that they donate toward. It’s kind of unbelievable what Waded has been able to do building my alma mater to what it is today. Financially moving up doesn’t make sense because our donor base is low and non-alumni in Bozeman have other allegiances to their own schools and grad schools.
As Colter alluded to, other universities, including MWC schools, get a large amount of their financial support from the university itself. If we can generate this kind of growth in enrollment by moving up and gaining increased exposure in more populous areas like California, Nevada, Utah and Colorado, then maybe it is time that MSU also starts getting that kind of institutional support.
MSU is unique because affordable student housing would need to be expanded because of the COL in Bozeman and the more students, the more academic expansion needed. I’d love to be in the MWC, but what MSU/UM brings to the conference compared to current members, them sharing equal revenue just doesn’t compute for those schools.

It’s the perfect FCS school and unless there is a big shift in FBS, we’d end up in whatever conference Idaho was in last and fighting for a Spud Bowl berth against Toledo.


Seattle to Billings to Missoula to Bozeman to Portland to Billings

What a ride

Cataholic
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Posts: 6690
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:09 pm

Re: Moving up

Post by Cataholic » Mon May 15, 2023 10:31 am

PapaG wrote:
Mon May 15, 2023 9:50 am
Cataholic wrote:
Thu May 11, 2023 8:46 am
PapaG wrote:
Wed May 10, 2023 7:29 pm
Cataholic wrote:
Wed May 10, 2023 1:58 pm
PapaG wrote:
Wed May 10, 2023 11:59 am
The funding just isn’t there for moving to FBS and we have assistant coaches now housing together. Where does the money come from when we’re already putting 19,000 in the seats on Saturdays.

Maybe if MSU could not have failing enrollment Little Bro in Missoula attached it might be a possibility but the MWC doesn’t need us both as members. We’re a state of just over a million people. I moved back from a metro area of 2.5 million last year and it just doesn’t equate.
It has been mentioned multiple times that revenue could be generated in other areas - not just sports. With the wider footprint and larger exposure, an increase of just 500 students would generate $7.5 million in tuition at $15,000 per student.
Where does that revenue come from if not state taxpayers. We’re a nothing state only known for rich Flathead and Big Sky people along with a fictional TV show who are from their own universities that they donate toward. It’s kind of unbelievable what Waded has been able to do building my alma mater to what it is today. Financially moving up doesn’t make sense because our donor base is low and non-alumni in Bozeman have other allegiances to their own schools and grad schools.
As Colter alluded to, other universities, including MWC schools, get a large amount of their financial support from the university itself. If we can generate this kind of growth in enrollment by moving up and gaining increased exposure in more populous areas like California, Nevada, Utah and Colorado, then maybe it is time that MSU also starts getting that kind of institutional support.
MSU is unique because affordable student housing would need to be expanded because of the COL in Bozeman and the more students, the more academic expansion needed. I’d love to be in the MWC, but what MSU/UM brings to the conference compared to current members, them sharing equal revenue just doesn’t compute for those schools.

It’s the perfect FCS school and unless there is a big shift in FBS, we’d end up in whatever conference Idaho was in last and fighting for a Spud Bowl berth against Toledo.
The Sun Belt has actually become a halfway respectable G5 football conference. They are filled with former FCS powers like James Madison, Coastal Carolina, App State, Georgia Southern. Troy even ended up in the Top 25 at season end. Conference USA is littered with former FCS teams and the AAC had two Top 25 teams last year. I really don’t see us moving anywhere but the MWC. And at this point, I think we should be aggressively pursuing it. We don’t want to be left behind as the P5 and G5 become more separated and FCS becomes a distinct 3rd level of football.



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Re: Moving up

Post by kaner77 » Mon May 15, 2023 9:54 pm

Maybe join the conference of drunken coaches



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utucats
Member # Retired
Posts: 2881
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:58 pm

Re: Moving up

Post by utucats » Mon May 15, 2023 9:58 pm

Prodigal Cat wrote:
Mon May 15, 2023 8:00 am
utucats wrote:
Sat May 13, 2023 8:10 am
Prodigal Cat wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 7:50 am
utucats wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 6:59 am
Colter_Nuanez wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 11:23 pm
utucats wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 10:46 pm
Colter_Nuanez wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 3:53 pm
GoCats18 wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 12:50 pm
We can’t even win a National Championship at this level. Why would people want to watch us play for a the chance at a bowl game? This would be a huge mistake. The fan base would drop to below 10,000 fans per game. It would destroy our program. Just look at Idaho. There is a reason they came back to the Big Sky.
Totally disagree. Bobcat Stadium is packed on Saturdays because it's the place to be. It's a premier and one of a kind event that people don't want to miss. It's the same thing in Missoula. Like an old athletic director used to always say: "It's not about winning. It's about the hope of winning. If you win consistently for awhile, then people will have the hope of winning forever."

Montana State would have to be absolutely terrible for 10+ years in a row AND have a style that was unappealing to watch AND have a terrible coach for people to completely stop coming to games. And that wouldn't happen. If MSU was FBS, they could out-recruit at least half the league simply based on Bozeman being a way more desirable destination than Laramie or Reno or San Jose or wherever.
Sorry Colter but I could not disagree with you more. Back when Kramer was coaching and Lulay came in we started to see the winning increasing and since then the game day experience has steadily grown. During that time and especially the years leading up to it, there were only a few thousand people attending non Cat griz games. One season we bought end zone season tickets because Cat griz was in Missoula so every game all one needed to do was get in and seating was pretty much whatever you wanted. We were drinking then so your statement that the booze is bringing Montanans is not correct.

Winning is important. Competing at a high level is important. I like Montana the way it has been. We are a rural state and our colleges are smaller schools. I hope we stay FCS forever. I have no desire to try and pretend to be a bigger deal than we are.

You are right that we have an amazing game day experience. If it ain’t broke don’t try to fix it.
This is what I’ve been trying to say on my show tho…it IS broken. Montana State generates the second most football revenue of any program in the Big Sky and one of the top 5 in the country. Yet when the final numbers come down for athletic department budget, the Cats make next to nothing.

Meanwhile, UC Davis has about 8,000 total people who care about football yet are about to build a new stadium. NAU just built a $44 million facility almost exclusively with state and student money, no real fundraising. All the fans in the Big Sky outside of Montana would have a hard time filling the two Montana stadiums. Yet the playing field is equal because the business model is broken.

The Cats and the Griz have the least amount of money to reinvest because each gets less than 50 percent of its athletic budget subsidized. This issue is compounded by the fact that at least half the league receives 70 percent subsidization and a few schools get more than 80 percent.

That’s not an equal playing field. That’s legislating to the lowest common denominator.

You want to know why most of you think Big Sky officiating sucks? Because it does. You want to know why you think the league’s administration is bush league?? Because it is.

You are who you hang out with. Northern Colorado’s
Locker room is like a mile from its D2 stadium. More people go to Bozeman Gallatin football games than NAU games. Portland State plays at a high school field, and it’s not even the nicest high school field in the area. Given the state of affairs in college sports, Idaho State might never field a winner ever again. Weber State just had its greatest coach in school history, tripled its number of all time playoff appearances and went on its first few playoff runs….how much did attendance increase? Not one bit. Still drawing a crowd that would turn out in Butte to watch the Bulldogs against Bozeman…

When you talk about the olden days, I get where you’re coming from. But that ain’t it anymore. Montana State is big league athletics and the football experience is one of the best in the West. From the rodeo team entrance to the spirit of the West to the engagement of the fans to the tailgates to the radio broadcasts to the media coverage to the scenery, I can’t really think of a scenario short of a full on catastrophic event that would deter people from coming to Bobcat Stadium in droves. You’d get at the very least three home teams better than you could ever get now from in the conference. And then you can get real home and homes, not just McNeese State or Bryant.

Let’s say MSU had a league to land in and BOR approval. And Cruzado is still president, Leon still AD and Vigen still head coach. And they get 22 more scholarships. That team is really competitive in the Mountain West right away. You’d add a $4-8 million revenue stream from TV. Waded would fully jolt
Fundraising and raise eight figures. You’d get more state money.

This is all a business. Doesn’t matter if you don’t like the thought it’s all about money. It’s all about money! Danny Sprinkle and the Big Sky All stars are all in Logan because of money. RaeQuan Battle is at West Virginia because of money.

And think of the publicity if MSU made a move. Nevada Reno and Wyoming coming on Bobcat Stadium for the first time in years….or better yet the second or third time after already being there….those coaches gushing in fear over Bobcat Stadium…I’ve been to most the stadiums in the Mountain West. The Montana schools are more raucous and wild for sure.

The Cats and the Griz just can’t get caught with their pants down playing in a division where the rivalry game is the conference AND national championship game. To me,
That makes it a fully diluted product. And this is coming from someone who has dedicated more than half my life to covering the Big Sky Conference…
I don’t agree that this is all a business. It is more than that and there are other considerations other than just solely making money. Even if we look at it from purely a business perspective, it is surprising that your take is that us funding all these programs and paying for this great game day experience with all the trimmings (rodeo team entrance, Spirit of the West) while continually improving facilities (paved parking/tailgating, BAC, new video board, South end zone, new field, rebranding, etc.) and doing that with less subsidies and somehow you find that system broken? Or your point is that since the other schools can’t do the same that we have an unfair advantage? Or maybe if we got 70% subsidized that would make it fair for us? Call me crazy but not needing assistance always seemed to me to be a marker of success. You’ll have to clear that up for me because I’m not understanding that point.

I also think you are way overhyping the impact of Wyoming showing up at Bobcat Stadium. The publicity? Is ESPN gonna come running and wanting it on prime time? No. In the whole college football market we have a very small footprint and that doesn’t change at all with a move up.

I look at schools like Wyoming with pity for having nothing real to play for. They are never going to win a championship. You talk about an unfair system, does us moving to a system where we have to accept never finishing #1 a fair system? I don’t think so.

We have a great rivalry, great venues, amazing fan support and we are the Big Sky conference. FCS football is truly becoming more and more about Montana State and the Dakotas. I love that fact. We built all of this in a broken model/system.

I appreciate your opinion but I think it is naive. This is an argument about priorities. Your take is simply that money matters more than winning. I disagree.
Wrong. They seek after a Mountain West Championship and I honestly might value that down the road as well, more than an FCS title with the current trend in this division. You take out us and the DSU's are you really proud of that? That you knocked off Incarnate Word, Bill and Mary, northsouthwest state u on the way to a title? NDSU and SDSU aren't long for the FCS and once they are gone are we really happy being the highschooler beating up on the third graders during recess? We shouldn't be the last one to leave the party.
Those FCS titles come so easy that we haven’t won one in nearly 40 years.
Reading comprehension is not your bag eh? I said I might down the road when SDSU and NDSU are gone. If you remove those 2 teams you could reasonably argue that MSU would have won a couple of titles in the last 4 years and might even be defending 2 time champs currently.
Actually I’m a terrific reader but your hypothetical about two programs not being in the FCS who are in the FCS with no plans to leave is just not all that impressive.

That title is coming, I can feel it. When we win I’ll be celebrating in Frisco and you can enjoy a night of devaluing our championship with your list of FBS newcomers 😢


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Re: Moving up

Post by Bobcat4Ever » Wed May 17, 2023 11:40 am

Prodigal Cat wrote:
Mon May 15, 2023 8:00 am
utucats wrote:
Sat May 13, 2023 8:10 am
Prodigal Cat wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 7:50 am
utucats wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 6:59 am
Colter_Nuanez wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 11:23 pm
utucats wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 10:46 pm
Colter_Nuanez wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 3:53 pm
GoCats18 wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 12:50 pm
We can’t even win a National Championship at this level. Why would people want to watch us play for a the chance at a bowl game? This would be a huge mistake. The fan base would drop to below 10,000 fans per game. It would destroy our program. Just look at Idaho. There is a reason they came back to the Big Sky.
Totally disagree. Bobcat Stadium is packed on Saturdays because it's the place to be. It's a premier and one of a kind event that people don't want to miss. It's the same thing in Missoula. Like an old athletic director used to always say: "It's not about winning. It's about the hope of winning. If you win consistently for awhile, then people will have the hope of winning forever."

Montana State would have to be absolutely terrible for 10+ years in a row AND have a style that was unappealing to watch AND have a terrible coach for people to completely stop coming to games. And that wouldn't happen. If MSU was FBS, they could out-recruit at least half the league simply based on Bozeman being a way more desirable destination than Laramie or Reno or San Jose or wherever.
Sorry Colter but I could not disagree with you more. Back when Kramer was coaching and Lulay came in we started to see the winning increasing and since then the game day experience has steadily grown. During that time and especially the years leading up to it, there were only a few thousand people attending non Cat griz games. One season we bought end zone season tickets because Cat griz was in Missoula so every game all one needed to do was get in and seating was pretty much whatever you wanted. We were drinking then so your statement that the booze is bringing Montanans is not correct.

Winning is important. Competing at a high level is important. I like Montana the way it has been. We are a rural state and our colleges are smaller schools. I hope we stay FCS forever. I have no desire to try and pretend to be a bigger deal than we are.

You are right that we have an amazing game day experience. If it ain’t broke don’t try to fix it.
This is what I’ve been trying to say on my show tho…it IS broken. Montana State generates the second most football revenue of any program in the Big Sky and one of the top 5 in the country. Yet when the final numbers come down for athletic department budget, the Cats make next to nothing.

Meanwhile, UC Davis has about 8,000 total people who care about football yet are about to build a new stadium. NAU just built a $44 million facility almost exclusively with state and student money, no real fundraising. All the fans in the Big Sky outside of Montana would have a hard time filling the two Montana stadiums. Yet the playing field is equal because the business model is broken.

The Cats and the Griz have the least amount of money to reinvest because each gets less than 50 percent of its athletic budget subsidized. This issue is compounded by the fact that at least half the league receives 70 percent subsidization and a few schools get more than 80 percent.

That’s not an equal playing field. That’s legislating to the lowest common denominator.

You want to know why most of you think Big Sky officiating sucks? Because it does. You want to know why you think the league’s administration is bush league?? Because it is.

You are who you hang out with. Northern Colorado’s
Locker room is like a mile from its D2 stadium. More people go to Bozeman Gallatin football games than NAU games. Portland State plays at a high school field, and it’s not even the nicest high school field in the area. Given the state of affairs in college sports, Idaho State might never field a winner ever again. Weber State just had its greatest coach in school history, tripled its number of all time playoff appearances and went on its first few playoff runs….how much did attendance increase? Not one bit. Still drawing a crowd that would turn out in Butte to watch the Bulldogs against Bozeman…

When you talk about the olden days, I get where you’re coming from. But that ain’t it anymore. Montana State is big league athletics and the football experience is one of the best in the West. From the rodeo team entrance to the spirit of the West to the engagement of the fans to the tailgates to the radio broadcasts to the media coverage to the scenery, I can’t really think of a scenario short of a full on catastrophic event that would deter people from coming to Bobcat Stadium in droves. You’d get at the very least three home teams better than you could ever get now from in the conference. And then you can get real home and homes, not just McNeese State or Bryant.

Let’s say MSU had a league to land in and BOR approval. And Cruzado is still president, Leon still AD and Vigen still head coach. And they get 22 more scholarships. That team is really competitive in the Mountain West right away. You’d add a $4-8 million revenue stream from TV. Waded would fully jolt
Fundraising and raise eight figures. You’d get more state money.

This is all a business. Doesn’t matter if you don’t like the thought it’s all about money. It’s all about money! Danny Sprinkle and the Big Sky All stars are all in Logan because of money. RaeQuan Battle is at West Virginia because of money.

And think of the publicity if MSU made a move. Nevada Reno and Wyoming coming on Bobcat Stadium for the first time in years….or better yet the second or third time after already being there….those coaches gushing in fear over Bobcat Stadium…I’ve been to most the stadiums in the Mountain West. The Montana schools are more raucous and wild for sure.

The Cats and the Griz just can’t get caught with their pants down playing in a division where the rivalry game is the conference AND national championship game. To me,
That makes it a fully diluted product. And this is coming from someone who has dedicated more than half my life to covering the Big Sky Conference…
I don’t agree that this is all a business. It is more than that and there are other considerations other than just solely making money. Even if we look at it from purely a business perspective, it is surprising that your take is that us funding all these programs and paying for this great game day experience with all the trimmings (rodeo team entrance, Spirit of the West) while continually improving facilities (paved parking/tailgating, BAC, new video board, South end zone, new field, rebranding, etc.) and doing that with less subsidies and somehow you find that system broken? Or your point is that since the other schools can’t do the same that we have an unfair advantage? Or maybe if we got 70% subsidized that would make it fair for us? Call me crazy but not needing assistance always seemed to me to be a marker of success. You’ll have to clear that up for me because I’m not understanding that point.

I also think you are way overhyping the impact of Wyoming showing up at Bobcat Stadium. The publicity? Is ESPN gonna come running and wanting it on prime time? No. In the whole college football market we have a very small footprint and that doesn’t change at all with a move up.

I look at schools like Wyoming with pity for having nothing real to play for. They are never going to win a championship. You talk about an unfair system, does us moving to a system where we have to accept never finishing #1 a fair system? I don’t think so.

We have a great rivalry, great venues, amazing fan support and we are the Big Sky conference. FCS football is truly becoming more and more about Montana State and the Dakotas. I love that fact. We built all of this in a broken model/system.

I appreciate your opinion but I think it is naive. This is an argument about priorities. Your take is simply that money matters more than winning. I disagree.
Wrong. They seek after a Mountain West Championship and I honestly might value that down the road as well, more than an FCS title with the current trend in this division. You take out us and the DSU's are you really proud of that? That you knocked off Incarnate Word, Bill and Mary, northsouthwest state u on the way to a title? NDSU and SDSU aren't long for the FCS and once they are gone are we really happy being the highschooler beating up on the third graders during recess? We shouldn't be the last one to leave the party.
Those FCS titles come so easy that we haven’t won one in nearly 40 years.
Reading comprehension is not your bag eh? I said I might down the road when SDSU and NDSU are gone. If you remove those 2 teams you could reasonably argue that MSU would have won a couple of titles in the last 4 years and might even be defending 2 time champs currently.
In the last four years in the playoffs, MSU has only lost to two teams — the DSUs. Those three are kind of the Big Deal group right now.

MSU might not have won for nearly 40 years, but it’s a constant goal that’s there every year. Make the playoffs. Win in the playoffs. Win the playoffs. That aspiration is pretty meaningful to FCS football and MSU in particular — a lot of good players are at MSU because of those goals, and some could be off chasing the Hoover Vacuum Bags Bowl at a G5. But they aren’t. A national championship is a bigger incentive. Maybe check with Sean Chambers? Not sure what he would say but it would be an interesting conversation.



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Re: Moving up

Post by Cat Grad » Wed May 24, 2023 3:29 pm

So, how many want this type of problem?

https://www.deseret.com/2023/5/24/23735 ... 12-country

This, along with the Arizona schools and Utah makes sense.

https://www.heartlandcollegesports.com/ ... on-report/



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Re: Moving up

Post by Montanabob » Wed May 24, 2023 6:24 pm

Cat Grad wrote:
Wed May 24, 2023 3:29 pm
So, how many want this type of problem?

https://www.deseret.com/2023/5/24/23735 ... 12-country

This, along with the Arizona schools and Utah makes sense.

https://www.heartlandcollegesports.com/ ... on-report/
Probably going to all of PAC 8.
UW. https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/wsu ... ues/?amp=1
And this was in addition to state of Washington cuts to education.


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Re: Moving up

Post by Cat Grad » Wed May 24, 2023 6:42 pm

Montanabob wrote:
Wed May 24, 2023 6:24 pm
Cat Grad wrote:
Wed May 24, 2023 3:29 pm
So, how many want this type of problem?

https://www.deseret.com/2023/5/24/23735 ... 12-country

This, along with the Arizona schools and Utah makes sense.

https://www.heartlandcollegesports.com/ ... on-report/
Probably going to all of PAC 8.
UW. https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/wsu ... ues/?amp=1
And this was in addition to state of Washington cuts to education.
Can you imagine what an administrator at EWU is thinking?

As much as Phil Knight Shoe School and UDUB want into the Big 10, does anyone, realistically, think the midwest schools want to go to Lake Washington with all the vampires or Eugene? What's going to happen to OSU, Cal and that expensive Ivy wannabe? WAZZU is screwed.

The MWC and decent administrators in the WAC schools after that goat rope expansion are the only landing places for many western schools.


*Plus: I've seen the various independents like Miami and Florida State join weak conferences, dominate and rise to national powers and I've seen a Power Conference collapse (Southwestern) and a wannabe overextend itself (WAC) and now we get to see how these newbies do:
https://www.cbssports.com/college-footb ... -universe/



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Re: Moving up

Post by Cataholic » Thu May 25, 2023 7:18 pm

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTREtqL1c/

Pretty interesting snipit on the ACC dissolving



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Re: Moving up

Post by BelligerentBobcat » Fri May 26, 2023 8:17 am

Cataholic wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 7:18 pm
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTREtqL1c/

Pretty interesting snipit on the ACC dissolving
Quit trying to take me to illegal sites!


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Re: Moving up

Post by Montanabob » Fri May 26, 2023 10:00 am

BelligerentBobcat wrote:
Fri May 26, 2023 8:17 am
Cataholic wrote:
Thu May 25, 2023 7:18 pm
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTREtqL1c/

Pretty interesting snipit on the ACC dissolving
Quit trying to take me to illegal sites!


;)
Here you go. Couldn't find a pay site except my onlyfans page.
https://myfox8.com/sports/could-the-acc ... ce-shifts/


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Re: Moving up

Post by Utcatsfan » Sat May 27, 2023 6:42 pm

Cat Grad wrote:
Wed May 24, 2023 6:42 pm
Montanabob wrote:
Wed May 24, 2023 6:24 pm
Cat Grad wrote:
Wed May 24, 2023 3:29 pm
So, how many want this type of problem?

https://www.deseret.com/2023/5/24/23735 ... 12-country

This, along with the Arizona schools and Utah makes sense.

https://www.heartlandcollegesports.com/ ... on-report/
Probably going to all of PAC 8.
UW. https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/wsu ... ues/?amp=1
And this was in addition to state of Washington cuts to education.
Can you imagine what an administrator at EWU is thinking?

As much as Phil Knight Shoe School and UDUB want into the Big 10, does anyone, realistically, think the midwest schools want to go to Lake Washington with all the vampires or Eugene? What's going to happen to OSU, Cal and that expensive Ivy wannabe? WAZZU is screwed.

The MWC and decent administrators in the WAC schools after that goat rope expansion are the only landing places for many western schools.


*Plus: I've seen the various independents like Miami and Florida State join weak conferences, dominate and rise to national powers and I've seen a Power Conference collapse (Southwestern) and a wannabe overextend itself (WAC) and now we get to see how these newbies do:
https://www.cbssports.com/college-footb ... -universe/
If the PAC collapses it's bad news for us, the MWC would take Wazzu and Oregon State in a heartbeat (CAL and Stanford are to snobby to even consider it) making it even less likely we'd get a call up. Frankly feel that the WAC since they really want to get back to FBS Football should meet with the MVFC and Big Sky and negotiate for the best teams to move up to FBS while ensuring all remaining school's find a home. Could also probably snag NMSU and UTEP, doubt they want to travel to Virginia or Florida vs a Western Conference:

WAC NORTH:

Idaho, Montana, MSU, NDSU, SDSU

WAC SOUTH:

NAU, NMSU, UTEP, Tarleton State, SHSU

Other Options: UC-Davis, Cal Poly, SFA, North Dakota, South Dakota



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Re: Moving up

Post by Bobcat4Ever » Sat May 27, 2023 7:32 pm

Utcatsfan wrote: WAC NORTH:

Idaho, Montana, MSU, NDSU, SDSU

WAC SOUTH:

NAU, NMSU, UTEP, Tarleton State, SHSU

Other Options: UC-Davis, Cal Poly, SFA, North Dakota, South Dakota
The North group is fine. For the South, because they are similar state universities, many of them land grants: NMSU, UC-Davis, Cal Poly, UND, USD. With those similarities, there would be fewer funding imbalances and far more commonality of mission. They are known, recognizable brands, many of them with a STEM curriculum. There are also a lot of good rivalry matchups: MSU-UM, NDSU-UND, SDSU-USD, UC-Davis-Cal Poly, Idaho & NMSU are left out. UNM and ISU need to get with the program.



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Re: Moving up

Post by onceacat » Sat May 27, 2023 7:47 pm

Its kind of laughable that a pro sports league (lets just call a spade a spade & acknowledge that at the FBS level, "NCAA" football is a pro sports league)

1) Cant control its individual membership numbers
2) Cant control divisions or conferences
3) Cant establish an equitable way to determine champion on the field
4) Lets individual conferences & members sell TV & broadcast rights

Until the NCAA is able to take control from the individual conferences & make its decisions based on delivering a good football product, the system is going to suck.

Get ready for another decade of DSU dominance & exciting home and home series with Stetson & Bryant.



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Re: Moving up

Post by Cat Grad » Sat May 27, 2023 7:49 pm

Utcatsfan wrote:
Sat May 27, 2023 6:42 pm
Cat Grad wrote:
Wed May 24, 2023 6:42 pm
Montanabob wrote:
Wed May 24, 2023 6:24 pm
Cat Grad wrote:
Wed May 24, 2023 3:29 pm
So, how many want this type of problem?

https://www.deseret.com/2023/5/24/23735 ... 12-country

This, along with the Arizona schools and Utah makes sense.

https://www.heartlandcollegesports.com/ ... on-report/
Probably going to all of PAC 8.
UW. https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/wsu ... ues/?amp=1
And this was in addition to state of Washington cuts to education.
Can you imagine what an administrator at EWU is thinking?

As much as Phil Knight Shoe School and UDUB want into the Big 10, does anyone, realistically, think the midwest schools want to go to Lake Washington with all the vampires or Eugene? What's going to happen to OSU, Cal and that expensive Ivy wannabe? WAZZU is screwed.

The MWC and decent administrators in the WAC schools after that goat rope expansion are the only landing places for many western schools.


*Plus: I've seen the various independents like Miami and Florida State join weak conferences, dominate and rise to national powers and I've seen a Power Conference collapse (Southwestern) and a wannabe overextend itself (WAC) and now we get to see how these newbies do:
https://www.cbssports.com/college-footb ... -universe/
If the PAC collapses it's bad news for us, the MWC would take Wazzu and Oregon State in a heartbeat (CAL and Stanford are to snobby to even consider it) making it even less likely we'd get a call up. Frankly feel that the WAC since they really want to get back to FBS Football should meet with the MVFC and Big Sky and negotiate for the best teams to move up to FBS while ensuring all remaining school's find a home. Could also probably snag NMSU and UTEP, doubt they want to travel to Virginia or Florida vs a Western Conference:

WAC NORTH:

Idaho, Montana, MSU, NDSU, SDSU

WAC SOUTH:

NAU, NMSU, UTEP, Tarleton State, SHSU

Other Options: UC-Davis, Cal Poly, SFA, North Dakota, South Dakota
From what I understand, it's not "If the pac folds, " it's where do the schools go? Those four outcast schools and all their debt would be a nightmare. It's great that I don't have to concern myself about all this crap.



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Re: Moving up

Post by Cat Grad » Sun May 28, 2023 6:31 am

Best to form a new conference. The four Dakotas, a couple from Idaho, both Montana schools, cast off pac or MWC schools, NMSU, Weber...

https://www.inforum.com/opinion/columns ... to-move-up



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Re: Moving up

Post by onceacat » Sun May 28, 2023 9:46 am

Cat Grad wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 6:31 am
Best to form a new conference. The four Dakotas, a couple from Idaho, both Montana schools, cast off pac or MWC schools, NMSU, Weber...

https://www.inforum.com/opinion/columns ... to-move-up
Oregon St & Washington St arent a terrible mismatch for Idaho & MSU academically & in terms of market size. They are a lot bigger than the DSUs & 2 time zones away. UMs declining enrollment & financial issues would make it a weird fit, but at least its a great geographic fit. Weber is too small & a terrible fit for any of these schools in conference.

If the MWC were to disintegrate I could imagine a NW conference with WSU, OSU, UM, MSU, BSU, Idaho, Utah St, Colorado State & Nevada, maybe Wyoming

That would be great for athletic competitiveness, all reasonably good academic & historical fits, close in size.

The DSUs are a hard pass for travel reasons alone. Let them join up with a conference thats a good geographical fit like the MAC.



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