The Bobcat Nation

Our running game is terrible (worse than last year), with the exception of Lulay (which is more of a scrambling game than a running game).

We had a great running game the years Ryan Johnson was here. So what has changed? Same coaches, with the exception of the O-Line coach who most people believe is much better than the last O-Line coach. I believe it is the same running "scheme". We play the same schools. So the only possible difference is the running back himself or the O-Line.

Kramer has tried every possible RB combination. We have tried D-1 transfers, JC transfers, freshmen, seniors, big backs, little backs, fast backs, quick backs, good blocking backs, backs with good hands (for receiving) and none have made much of a difference. Was RJ that good or is it the O-Line. While I would argue that none of the Kramer recruits has been of the caliber of RJ the change is to dramatic for that to be the only difference. I think the type of athelete we recruit at O-Line has changed. Look at the 2002 line: Quast, Stevenson, Swaggert, Toilolo, Choi. Big (except for Stevenson), tough, mean and would do anything to gain an advantage (huh Mike). I think run blocking requires an attitude and a physical nature different from pass blocking. Maybe our line today is not made to run block. They sure pass block well. What else could it be????

Groves needs to start every game. He should split a few carries with Domineck. End of story.

gtapp wrote:Our running game is terrible (worse than last year), with the exception of Lulay (which is more of a scrambling game than a running game).

We had a great running game the years Ryan Johnson was here. So what has changed? Same coaches, with the exception of the O-Line coach who most people believe is much better than the last O-Line coach. I believe it is the same running "scheme". We play the same schools. So the only possible difference is the running back himself or the O-Line.

Kramer has tried every possible RB combination. We have tried D-1 transfers, JC transfers, freshmen, seniors, big backs, little backs, fast backs, quick backs, good blocking backs, backs with good hands (for receiving) and none have made much of a difference. Was RJ that good or is it the O-Line. While I would argue that none of the Kramer recruits has been of the caliber of RJ the change is to dramatic for that to be the only difference. I think the type of athelete we recruit at O-Line has changed. Look at the 2002 line: Quast, Stevenson, Swaggert, Toilolo, Choi. Big (except for Stevenson), tough, mean and would do anything to gain an advantage (huh Mike). I think run blocking requires an attitude and a physical nature different from pass blocking. Maybe our line today is not made to run block. They sure pass block well. What else could it be????

Gtapp,
I get the feeling it's an attitude thing in part. But, like anything, if you don't do it a lot, you never get good at it. In other words, I don't think we run enough during the game to let these guys (and the running backs) get into a groove and make in game adjustments. I just saw a quote from a high school game today where the team ran plays in the second half based upon what the O-line said would/was working. A close game turned into a large margin victory because they ran those plays and controlled the game.
I don't see this team as a straight up running team. Because of the commitment to keeping the ball game in Travis' hands, I think that plays such as RB draws, speed tosses would seem to be viable.
Don't get me wrong. I think the running game is an important part of a successfull formula. But, if the coaches are going to go this way then they need to look at what kinds of running plays compliment this type of formula.

Whatever the case, our running game was the worst it has ever been against NAU. Absolutely anemic. Bass looked terrible, yet the coaches seemed intent to leave him in. Groves made a nice gain on the 1 carry he had, but then fumbled the ball and never got another chance. Domineck continues to run like a man waxing and waning between cycles of his lithium - he runs hard and makes nice gains for a few plays, then reverts back to prancing around in the backfield the next series.

I agree that it is abundently clear that Groves should be starting and Bass/Domineck should spell him. It is also clear that our coaches feel we are going to win without any kind of running game. I would agree with that if we had a halfway decent defense, but we all know that isn't going to happen any time soon...

Looking at the replay of the game yesterday I noticed that on running plays (mostly draws) the line is basically pass blocking, which is what they do on draws, but when it's a straight up running play they are also sort of pass blocking, not attacking but just trying to turn the d linemen. Especially I noticed Bolton who engaged his man and then let him spin out and nail the RB. They are just so used to pass blocking they don't even know what it is to drive block. I also noticed that we don't run sweeps where we pull linemen, so we get only "one on one" at the point of attack. Individually they are not that good!

You are right...the running game takes an attitude and the Cats are "PASS ive"

Helcat72 wrote:Looking at the replay of the game yesterday I noticed that on running plays (mostly draws) the line is basically pass blocking, which is what they do on draws, but when it's a straight up running play they are also sort of pass blocking, not attacking but just trying to turn the d linemen. Especially I noticed Bolton who engaged his man and then let him spin out and nail the RB. They are just so used to pass blocking they don't even know what it is to drive block. I also noticed that we don't run sweeps where we pull linemen, so we get only "one on one" at the point of attack. Individually they are not that good!

You are right...the running game takes an attitude and the Cats are "PASS ive"

With Travis and Groves in the backfield we should be able to pull a guard and pin a DE and either pitch it--sweep it-- or pass out of the formation. I'd like to see us try something like that with Sac St.

We nned to have more balance in our attack especially when you play better teams. I don't care how good the passing game is, if you can't run the ball it catches up with you. It will be very important especially against EWU and the Griz!

catsrback76 wrote:

Helcat72 wrote:Looking at the replay of the game yesterday I noticed that on running plays (mostly draws) the line is basically pass blocking, which is what they do on draws, but when it's a straight up running play they are also sort of pass blocking, not attacking but just trying to turn the d linemen. Especially I noticed Bolton who engaged his man and then let him spin out and nail the RB. They are just so used to pass blocking they don't even know what it is to drive block. I also noticed that we don't run sweeps where we pull linemen, so we get only "one on one" at the point of attack. Individually they are not that good!

You are right...the running game takes an attitude and the Cats are "PASS ive"

With Travis and Groves in the backfield we should be able to pull a guard and pin a DE and either pitch it--sweep it-- or pass out of the formation. I'd like to see us try something like that with Sac St.

Yep, no counter trey's or any type of run plays. We either run the draw play or the off tackle run and that is it. One thing to keep in mind is if Lulay is audibling and calling these plays himself at the line? How much of the plays is Lulay calling now? I think we have a passing mentality and if Lulay is calling the plays, he is going to audible for a passing play. He is a field general at QB though so I will give him that, but I think that could be part of our problem. We don't pull hardly any guards/tackles or even center's anymore it seems like? What do you think Quast? There isn't as much of this is there? Also, when the Cats used to run, we usually had a fullback in there a lot of times to clear the hole of any LB's that had busted by the initial group etc. We just seem to just run the RB through the hole right into the LB's? (NO LEAD OR ANYTHING) so they either have to make the first guy miss or its a RUN STUFF. Groves can make people miss (Bass used to be able to, but he needs to heal up as he doesn't have the explosive cut he is know for .. .YET).

I will give kudos to Domineck for some hard runs in that last drive of that game though. He showed up when it counted late and busted some heads in there as well as stopped Lulay from getting sacked 2 times with ferocious blocks on blitzing LB's.

The reason that there is no pulling etc. is because the Cats run a zone blocking scheme. For those of you who don't know about it read this:

from football outsiders

ZONE BLOCKING
For those of you unfamiliar with the Denver offensive line scheme, they use a technique known as "zone blocking". In a "man" or "drive" blocking scheme the lineman is responsible for an individual, and the play is designed for a running back to hit a particular gap. The zone blocking scheme, on the other hand, has a lineman blocking an area instead of a designated defensive player. If multiple linemen are blocking an area than one can break off and block into the second level.

The offensive line typically moves as a unit laterally, and the result of their blocks should create some natural seams or gaps in the defensive formation. The running back is responsible for finding a hole, making a cut, and then running upfield. One of the key tenets of the Denver system is that the running back takes what he can get — he should never dance around waiting for a hole to open. He needs to be agile, authoritative, and possess good instincts. Nothing fancy, just try to gain positive yardage.

A final element of the zone blocking scheme is the use of the much hated cut block to seal off backside pursuit. This means that any linemen on the backside of the play cut block defensive players in front of them, which drops the defensive players to the turf and, oddly enough, opens up holes for the running back. Note that the cut block is legal in this case, as long as the offensive lineman isn’t hitting the defender from behind and as long as he doesn’t roll up on his legs. But hitting him below the knees near the line of scrimmage is fair game, as much as the NFLPA doesn’t want it to be.

Obviously getting defenders on the ground is one benefit of the cut block, but an intangible benefit is that defenders start worrying about their knees and ankles. They lose a bit of their aggression and speed since they’re paranoid that some lineman is going to creep up on them and take out their legs. This has the benefit of slowing down the entire defense.

Bass wasn't Bass. He is not 100%. He had no push and quickness wasn't there.

Groves is a freshman (Redshirt), a fumble is a mistake that happened all to often Saturday. Thus he sits. No use bitching about it, A freshmen only gets a couple of chances (if any) from Kramer. He had no time by then to give second tries.

And JD is NOT as quick to the holes on most plays, leaving time for the DL to spin off blocks.

Remember, Kramer has said they will pass and then pass more. I don't think he is kidding and that he really means he is going to establish a running game. So don't look for it. So until Groves is a stud blocker, he has limited time THIS season, not next. You have to think the Griz is the big game. They are a RUN defense team. We not not going to have a 100 yard rusher or two against them. We will win with ball control passing. Not running (except for Lulay planned draws).

The biggest issue Saturday was fumbles. We had 4 and lost 4. And that did not count the safety punt which we could have just let bounce to a stop. If no one wanted to catch it, then it was NOT a live ball until we touched it. Thus really 5 fumbles lost. HUGE number.

That gives the other team ball over and over. We were lucky to win with that number of turnovers. We were just that much better of a team. But it did greatly affect the time we had the ball because the fumbles occured at the very beginning of the four series.

Also, NAU did a very good job stopping the short pass for the most part. Lulay had time, but NAU played up close on defense and tried to stop the short pass. The long was open (Gatewood first play and then fumble, Gatewood in the endzone drop, I think Gatewood long down the team side that was overthrown, but open.

spider wrote:The reason that there is no pulling etc. is because the Cats run a zone blocking scheme. For those of you who don't know about it read this:

from football outsiders

ZONE BLOCKING
For those of you unfamiliar with the Denver offensive line scheme, they use a technique known as "zone blocking". In a "man" or "drive" blocking scheme the lineman is responsible for an individual, and the play is designed for a running back to hit a particular gap. The zone blocking scheme, on the other hand, has a lineman blocking an area instead of a designated defensive player. If multiple linemen are blocking an area than one can break off and block into the second level.

The offensive line typically moves as a unit laterally, and the result of their blocks should create some natural seams or gaps in the defensive formation. The running back is responsible for finding a hole, making a cut, and then running upfield. One of the key tenets of the Denver system is that the running back takes what he can get — he should never dance around waiting for a hole to open. He needs to be agile, authoritative, and possess good instincts. Nothing fancy, just try to gain positive yardage.

A final element of the zone blocking scheme is the use of the much hated cut block to seal off backside pursuit. This means that any linemen on the backside of the play cut block defensive players in front of them, which drops the defensive players to the turf and, oddly enough, opens up holes for the running back. Note that the cut block is legal in this case, as long as the offensive lineman isn’t hitting the defender from behind and as long as he doesn’t roll up on his legs. But hitting him below the knees near the line of scrimmage is fair game, as much as the NFLPA doesn’t want it to be.

Obviously getting defenders on the ground is one benefit of the cut block, but an intangible benefit is that defenders start worrying about their knees and ankles. They lose a bit of their aggression and speed since they’re paranoid that some lineman is going to creep up on them and take out their legs. This has the benefit of slowing down the entire defense.

spider I definitely saw this blocking style on Saturday. For me, all this means is that I have a name for what I don't like. The end result on Saturday for our run plays was that the entire line of scrimmage (offensive and defensive) moved laterally and the plays were stopped with 0-2 yards gained. I definitely have a problem with this blocking scheme. If you are not drive blocking people and/or walling them off they simply string the play out to the sideline (12th man).

It is your OLine. Brant B. wouldn't start for any other teams in the Big Sky. Attached is my post after watching your spring scrimmage.

Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:13 pm Post subject:


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Let not your heart be troubled, I'll say it right now so you can mark it and come back to me in November if I'm wrong. The Cats will be sub 500 at best. I watched the scrimmage in Great Falls and they have problems on D and on the Oline. Go back to my pre-game assessment of the Griz/Cat game and you will see where I identified a weakness of Lulay for knocked down balls. It was an issue at the scrimmage this year. He downplayed it by saying it was the lineman's last resort because they couldn't get by the OLine. BS, his OLine may have the guys in front of them, but they are on skates and Lulay has a low release. The Dline closes the gap, and the incidence of knocked passes increases. May not be as good as a sack, but it better then a possible complete pass. While the linebacking corp is strong, the Cats will have to score a lot to win games this year because their going to be in some track meets.

Personally, I'm more worried about our own backyard. While our OLine looks to be good, we have a lot of unresolved issues on O, and while I like Paulson, we could have a Ron Richards situation on the D.

The bottomline here is that it is all just a game. The Cats have some great kids as do the Griz. I don't worry about the Cats, and I get a chuckle out of Maxi Me and the fodder he puts out in print. Hey Mac is a great LB, but why throw out the crap about how some schools are making big noise about their LB's when McIntyre gets selected as the only 1-AA player for the Lott award. Come on Mr. Clean, Bobby isn't blowing the horn on that one. I'm sure Mac will let his pads do the talking, and Maxi Clean should do the same.

Last edited by Born2BaGriz on Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

Oh, for the good old days when we ran the ball and lost.

My question: Why isn't Bailey having us throw the ball to the running backs a bunch more against the flex defense? We got a touchdown from Bass against Cal Poly and touchdowns from Bass and Domineck against NAU-in the few times I recall throwing to the running backs they were virtually uncovered.

Teams are going to key on Gatewood and Murray and they have to be honest on Lulay or he'll take off and run. I don't think anybody is paying any attention at all to our running backs-whether in the backfield or out in the flat. That's my guess anyway.

longhorn_22 wrote:Groves needs to start every game. He should split a few carries with Domineck. End of story.

Seems to me things happen when Dominick is in the game!

vike_king wrote:

longhorn_22 wrote:Groves needs to start every game. He should split a few carries with Domineck. End of story.

Seems to me things happen when Dominick is in the game!

Simple reason, JD is a blocker and it's a passing team.
Lulay has lots of time and hits a reciever or does a draw.
JD is also a good receiver.

I know that someone out there has the answer to this question: How many times has Travis been the leading rusher for the Cats this season? I can only remember twice that Lulay was not the leading rusher this season.

two was what came to my mind as well.

Please someone teach Groves to hold on to the ball because at this point he is our only hope of having any resemblence of a running game.

I'm thinking Kramer needs to take a play from the movie "The Program" where the freshman fumbles in practice and the coach makes him carry the ball with him everywhere he goes. And, his teammates are to try to knock it out whenever they see him. Worked for them