roll punt

1BadBobcat · Post by **1BadBobcat** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:48 am

Bay Area Cat wrote:When your punter is intentionally delaying the punt and running towards a spot (and towards the line of scrimmage) as opposed to punting it from the core of his protection, and then intentionally kicking the ball on a flatter trajectory ... how can you not say that it is harder to block for him?

The entire concept of the roll punt, especially when done every single time, obviously makes it harder for the kicking team to block for as compared to a traditional punt.

The fact that we get so many blocked (due to poor blocking, I am told), even when Lulay was doing it, seems to prove out this assertion.

The roll punt is clearly a lot harder to execute that the conventional punt ... and the risk is far higher than the reward, as this experiment has proven.

I have some degree of faith that Kramer will make a change in the offseason. If he doesn't ... he will be displaying attributes of a bad coach IMO (namely, being too stubborn to admit that he's wrong).

While it seemed Lulay was fairly good at it, how many times did we see him kick it so low that it would hit into on of our own blocker's back. Quite a few from what I remember.

grizzh8r · Post by **grizzh8r** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:10 pm

1BadBobcat wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote:When your punter is intentionally delaying the punt and running towards a spot (and towards the line of scrimmage) as opposed to punting it from the core of his protection, and then intentionally kicking the ball on a flatter trajectory ... how can you not say that it is harder to block for him?

The entire concept of the roll punt, especially when done every single time, obviously makes it harder for the kicking team to block for as compared to a traditional punt.

The fact that we get so many blocked (due to poor blocking, I am told), even when Lulay was doing it, seems to prove out this assertion.

The roll punt is clearly a lot harder to execute that the conventional punt ... and the risk is far higher than the reward, as this experiment has proven.

I have some degree of faith that Kramer will make a change in the offseason. If he doesn't ... he will be displaying attributes of a bad coach IMO (namely, being too stubborn to admit that he's wrong).
While it seemed Lulay was fairly good at it, how many times did we see him kick it so low that it would hit into on of our own blocker's back. Quite a few from what I remember.

I don't ever remember him hitting one of our blockers in the back - I do however remember him hitting a return team player more than once, giving the chance for a turnover.

Fat Cat · Post by **Fat Cat** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:44 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote

The whole point, though, is that to execute the roll point well, there has to be all sorts of good execution. Listening to people talk about missed blocks, it is akin to running a good sweep.

In a traditional punt, it seems like there is rarely a "missed block," because there is little need for blocks ... you just need to slow them down.

Granted, every time the roll punt has failed to work, one can say there was a lack of execution. But the level of execution necessary for a roll punt appears to be about 10x that of a conventional punt ... and conventional punts seem to result in better nets (comparing MSU to its opponents and historical punters, anyway).

I just don't see the point in continuing to try to do something that is hard to do and does not work that well very often to begin with.

Use it here and there (but not with your back to the endzone) for a different look or in special circumstances, but not every single time.

Great points BAC. I think we should use it here and there and definitely not with our backs to the endzone. I really don't like to see it anywhere inside our own 35. I really wish the coaching staff would really put some thought into when to use it and with what personnel and against what team. We totally used it wrong this year. First, I think it is much less effective when a traditional style punter is doing it (ie Bolton), where there is really no threat of him throwing or running a fake. There is a good chance that teams are going to go hard for the block, vs possibly having some concerns about a wide receiver getting open for a pass on a fake. Especially speed teams like Furman. Couple that with the Cats backed up on their own end of the field (holy $hit, talk about a train wreck waiting to happen!!!).

However, in certain instances I like the roll punt (if we have the right personnel). Actually (looking to next year

), I think Desin next year will be a great weapon. I think he punted in high school, as well as played quarterback (has great speed too). Now, if we are around the 50, it is probably a good idea to do the roll punt (unless the defense is just ungodly fast). The defense had better not sell out keeping an eye out for the fake (therefore, it is less likely to get blocked). If the defense does sell out, the next time we are around the 50 punting, the coaches have Desin make them pay.

Oh and....calling a fake punt by putting in your full time quarterback after you have been using a punting specialist on all prior punts (when your quarterback and pass/punt protection have been struggling) is just plain dumb.

Platinumcat · Post by **Platinumcat** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:03 pm

bump...that's for you BAC

Post by **SonomaCat** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:06 pm

barechestcat wrote:bump...that's for you BAC

Excellent.

mslacat · Post by **mslacat** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:19 pm

Can we work it into Kramers new contract that he must have a real punter or two underscholarship every year!

Just a thought!

Platinumcat · Post by **Platinumcat** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:21 pm

mslacat wrote:Can we work it into Kramers new contract that he must have a real punter or two underscholarship every year!

Just a thought!

By the time we get done sticking everything into the new contract, it's going to make my real estate closing paperwork look minimal.

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:24 pm

Nothing wrong with it if it doesn't get blocked or goes a few yards. From what I understand, the blocks have been breakdowns in the blocking assignments although I'd take issue with that statement against Ape State.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:30 pm

Cat Grad wrote:Nothing wrong with it if it doesn't get blocked or goes a few yards. From what I understand, the blocks have been breakdowns in the blocking assignments although I'd take issue with that statement against Ape State.

The funny thing to me is ... with a traditional punt ... even if a guy comes in without being touched, he often STILL doesn't get a block.

But for some reason, with a roll punt, if a guy doesn't hold his block well, the likelihood of a block is high. Maybe blocking is much, much harder for a roll punt?

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:35 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:
Cat Grad wrote:Nothing wrong with it if it doesn't get blocked or goes a few yards. From what I understand, the blocks have been breakdowns in the blocking assignments although I'd take issue with that statement against Ape State.
The funny thing to me is ... with a traditional punt ... even if a guy comes in without being touched, he often STILL doesn't get a block.

But for some reason, with a roll punt, if a guy doesn't hold his block well, the likelihood of a block is high. Maybe blocking is much, much harder for a roll punt?

I don't think so; I think we have a tendency to put too damn many "young pups" that'll keep the boosters happy on special teams.

Platinumcat · Post by **Platinumcat** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:38 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:
Cat Grad wrote:Nothing wrong with it if it doesn't get blocked or goes a few yards. From what I understand, the blocks have been breakdowns in the blocking assignments although I'd take issue with that statement against Ape State.
The funny thing to me is ... with a traditional punt ... even if a guy comes in without being touched, he often STILL doesn't get a block.

But for some reason, with a roll punt, if a guy doesn't hold his block well, the likelihood of a block is high. Maybe blocking is much, much harder for a roll punt?

You and I have visited about this before. So, I'm not going to re-hash it. But, do you recall the pressure we were getting on Furman's punter?
It just comes down to execution for either style...we were OK at best in terms of performance over the course of the year in this category IMO. And, as a former grunt on the punt team blocking line. I don't buy the whole it's harder to block for; there's a guy in front of you, block him. If not, you reach down for the nearest guy.....release, go knock somebody's head off..

Post by **SonomaCat** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:48 pm

We apparently just have terrible blockers on special teams as compared to the rest of the country, then.

So just to be safe, we should go to a quicker style of kicking (by removing the roll out and instead kicking it immediately upon catching it) that elevates the ball high above the line to compensate for our awful blocking.

poorgriz · Post by **poorgriz** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 4:38 pm

Cat Grad wrote:Nothing wrong with it if it doesn't get blocked or goes a few yards. From what I understand, the blocks have been breakdowns in the blocking assignments although I'd take issue with that statement against Ape State.

Wow, just when I thought that Cat fans couldn't be any dumber, I read this. You want to blame the guys blocking for a kick that is three feet off the ground. The roll punt does nothing except save a scholarship. Do you think Ray Guy was the only punter to go in the first round of the NFL draft because he took a chance on his punts? No, he used a traditional style which gives you better distance, height, and more time for your cover team to get down and be in position to stop their guy. When you roll punt the ball is low, short, and the returner has the ability to take the ball on the run, making it harder for your cover team to stop. The roll punt needs to stop. They are called special teams for a reason. Because when you are good at them, your team can do good things, win big games, and be the team playing on December 15th.

catamaran · Post by **catamaran** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 4:40 pm

When we can recruit Ray Guy, I'm sure Kramer will give him a schollie....now go back to eating the "pee cheerios"

brucat5 · Post by **brucat5** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:31 pm

Personally, I think the reason the roll punt worked so well with Lulay is that he was a triple threat to punt, run or pass. The defense couldn't sell out or he'd run by them or throw over the top of them. He kept them honest.

Since we are going to keep the roll punt style, we need to have the person punting posses those skills. Ideally it would be the starting or backup QB. Jack/Cory/Rass need to start practicing the roll punt. When done correctly, it is a great way to do things (and lets us give that scholly to someone who plays more the 4 plays a game). Unfortunately, we weren't good at it this year and it cost us.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:33 pm

Jack was the first guy they had doing the roll punts this year ... although I'm sure he any of the QBs are huge running threats back there -- Lulay was unique in that aspect.

brucat5 · Post by **brucat5** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:38 pm

I agree, none of the current (maybe Rass) QB's seem to fit the description I gave. Maybe we have someone else on the team that posses these skills? Anybody that has the skill set would work out. He just needs to have the ability to challenge the D in all three of those ways. And, for the love of Pete, if you do kick, please kick it higher than 10ft!!

Post by **SonomaCat** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:40 pm

brucat5 wrote:I agree, none of the current (maybe Rass) QB's seem to fit the description I gave. Maybe we have someone else on the team that posses these skills? Anybody that has the skill set would work out. He just needs to have the ability to challenge the D in all three of those ways. And, for the love of Pete, if you do kick, please kick it higher than 10ft!!

If we are pulling together a request list, I'd like to see a surprise drop kick every now and then as well ... with lots of range. Then they would be able to challenge the defense in four different ways.

GOKATS · Post by **GOKATS** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:50 pm

brucat5 wrote:I agree, none of the current (maybe Rass) QB's seem to fit the description I gave. Maybe we have someone else on the team that posses these skills? Anybody that has the skill set would work out. He just needs to have the ability to challenge the D in all three of those ways. And, for the love of Pete, if you do kick, please kick it higher than 10ft!!

Regardless of where else Desin ends up on the field, teach him to roll punt and use him in every situation where a roll punt is appropriate..........there's your triple option. Notice I said when appropriate, I really don't think a roll punt is appropriate if you're kicking anywhere inside your own 20 for instance.

Cledus · Post by **Cledus** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:16 pm

poorgriz wrote:They are called special teams for a reason. Because when you are good at them, your team can do good things, win big games, and be the team playing on December 15th.

In MSU's case, the special teams is more closely related to the Special Olympics. Even when the roll punt works well, the one out of five times we're accustomed to it working as intended, we're still retarded. Ironic, huh?

roll punt

Come on