Oh no

anacondagriz · Post by **anacondagriz** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:21 am

Michigan also had to forfeit ther 2 final four appearances from C Webbers 2 years in the program. Makes me sick to think about.

CatGrad00 · Post by **CatGrad00** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:35 am

FootballFan wrote:Kramer has had more problems in 6 years than Mick in 16 years, do I hear anyone complaining about Kramer? Has Mick hired a coach that is in prison for selling drugs yet? Mick runs a good program period.

I agree.......the football seems to have alot more "hoodlums" over the years than basketball. Frank Brown made a big mistake, a stupid mistake, an immoral mistake, period. Mick did not made that decision for him on a Sunday night.

Ponycat · Post by **Ponycat** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:48 am

Just for the record I wasn't suggesting that Mick doesn't run a clean program. I think he does, and I think he is a good recruiter. I just don't think he is a 1-A coach, and I think his record shows this even though I know some people think his record proves he is a good coach.

PapaG · Post by **PapaG** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:03 am

CelticCat wrote:
PapaG wrote:
bozbobcat wrote:I remember something like that. A player and an assistant coach hurt the program with that debacle. You get a bad apple, or in this case, a pair of bad apples from time to time. Yeah, the program record shows 1-26 for that year because of these guys. As a side note, these wins only count against MSU basketball's record, not Durham's record. But really, I can only think of 2 major problems (this one and Mr. F. Brown) during Durham's tenure.
Playing Devil's Advocate, how many other programs over the past ten years have had to forfeit most of their games in a season? How many have had a player rape a 15 year-old? How many have had this combination?

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...
Mick has been here for 16 (or whatever), so you can't just look at the last ten years when saying Mick has turned our program immoral.

I struck my morality statement from the record in a previous post. It was the product of a bit too much egg nog.

It's the stability issue and the lack of long-range planning that stick out to me.

I really do hope the Mick can turn this season around. I have been a Bobcat fan for a lot longer than he has been the coach, so I always am Bobcat first. With this said, if this team struggles for the rest of the season after being the pre-season favorite, I see no choice but to inject some young blood into the coaching staff. I'd start at the top.

spider · Post by **spider** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:48 am

Ponycat wrote:I just don't think he is a 1-A coach, ......

I'm not trying to be mean, but, I have seen this mistake several times. NCAA basketball has no I-A. It is simply Division I, Division II, and Division III. It does not have sub-classifications like football. (I-A, I-AA).

catbooster · Post by **catbooster** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:48 pm

FootballFan wrote:Kramer has had more problems in 6 years than Mick in 16 years, do I hear anyone complaining about Kramer? Has Mick hired a coach that is in prison for selling drugs yet? Mick runs a good program period.

I'm not sure you can make a meaningful comparison like this. How many football players in 6 years vs how many basketball players in 16 years have been on the teams at MSU? I would guess that the results turn out to be pretty similar in terms of percentage of team members.

How about a different comparison between football and basketball? I've noticed lots of people excited about football and the direction it's going in large part due to the off-field success in terms of sell-out crowds, etc. Kramer gets a lot of credit (and deserves it IMO) for building the program.

I got to thinking about the crowds we used to have for basketball vs. what we get now, so looked at the attendance figures on the NCAA web page. Here are the values for average attendance every other year from 1992 to 2004:

1992 6260
1994 5720
1996 5892
1998 5214
2000 4445
2002 4691
2004 3644

Seems like basketball is headed the wrong way.

Post by **rtb** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:57 pm

Another great example of the things that need fixed with MSU Basketball. Our teams aren't competitive, we have been to the dance once in 16 years, attendance is steadily dropping, etc. Yet complaining about it gets you labeled as a bad fan. I feel like I am banging my head against a wall!! When will this change? I used to be a huge MSU basketball fan, but my interest has really dropped the last few years as I don't see things improving anytime soon.

PapaG · Post by **PapaG** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:05 pm

rtb wrote: Another great example of the things that need fixed with MSU Basketball. Our teams aren't competitive, we have been to the dance once in 16 years, attendance is steadily dropping, etc. Yet complaining about it gets you labeled as a bad fan. I feel like I am banging my head against a wall!! When will this change? I used to be a huge MSU basketball fan, but my interest has really dropped the last few years as I don't see things improving anytime soon.

We are two voices in the wilderness. I type the same things every year, except each subsequent year adds a few more discouraging aspects of the program.

Speaking of wilderness, I got to Bachelor a few weeks ago for the first time this season. Next time let's hook up for a beverage at Cascade Lakes Brewery? Most likely the first week of January is when I'll be there next.

Post by **rtb** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:29 pm

PapaG wrote:Speaking of wilderness, I got to Bachelor a few weeks ago for the first time this season. Next time let's hook up for a beverage at Cascade Lakes Brewery? Most likely the first week of January is when I'll be there next.

Sounds good! I haven't been up to Bachelor yet, but I will be heading up soon I hope. Send me a PM when you know you will be here and we will meet up.

whitetrashgriz · Post by **whitetrashgriz** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:32 pm

rtb wrote: Another great example of the things that need fixed with MSU Basketball. Our teams aren't competitive, we have been to the dance once in 16 years, attendance is steadily dropping, etc. Yet complaining about it gets you labeled as a bad fan. I feel like I am banging my head against a wall!! When will this change? I used to be a huge MSU basketball fan, but my interest has really dropped the last few years as I don't see things improving anytime soon.

i guess my only problem with your opinion rtb, and others is this. the season is a month old. despite all the cat-griz football smack that was slinging, i don't seem to remember any anti-durham posts before the start of the season. last year, sure. the year before, probably. but i just have a problem when a person is excited about the season and staff, or at least excited enough to not say anything against the team and staff, and then when the road is rocky, call for the coaches head. i am in no way comparing you to our friend "wolfy", but at least you know where he stood. i mean, bobby and the griz could have won the title and he'd still be talking his junk. i guess i just assume that if the team was playing better we wouldn't have these threads right now. so, while i don't think you are a bad fan, i just disagree with your opinion that mick needs to go right now. and i mean now as in right now, before the season has even started. it's not going to happen that way. so, i dont know who is labeling you guys bad fans because imo stating your opinion doesn't make a bad fan. lets just hope that these guys can turn it around.

Helcat72 · Post by **Helcat72** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:17 pm

We just don't get many marquee players anymore. Jason Erickson was about the last one we got and he was the only one for his entire four years. Before him I suppose it was Holmstadt, Sprinkle and Quadre Lollis. Of course Nico Harrison played with Lollis and Sprinkle was a freshman. These are the kinds of players we need to play together to win the league IMO.

whitetrashgriz · Post by **whitetrashgriz** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:07 pm

Helcat72 wrote:We just don't get many marquee players anymore. Jason Erickson was about the last one we got and he was the only one for his entire four years. Before him I suppose it was Holmstadt, Sprinkle and Quadre Lollis. Of course Nico Harrison played with Lollis and Sprinkle was a freshman. These are the kinds of players we need to play together to win the league IMO.

sorry, but wasn't last year the first without erickson? so we have went 2 seasons without a four year player? but we have durr on our roster who will be a 4 year guy. and we have a couple recruits who are supposed to be good and should be four year players right?

twentythreeOh4 · Post by **twentythreeOh4** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:44 pm

Ponycat wrote:Just for the record I wasn't suggesting that Mick doesn't run a clean program. I think he does, and I think he is a good recruiter. I just don't think he is a 1-A coach, and I think his record shows this even though I know some people think his record proves he is a good coach.

When did MSU move to 1-A?

The rest of the Big Sky plays D-I basketball.

twentythreeOh4 · Post by **twentythreeOh4** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:05 pm

Helcat72 wrote:We just don't get many marquee players anymore. Jason Erickson was about the last one we got and he was the only one for his entire four years. Before him I suppose it was Holmstadt, Sprinkle and Quadre Lollis. Of course Nico Harrison played with Lollis and Sprinkle was a freshman. These are the kinds of players we need to play together to win the league IMO.

What about Damir Latovic, Pete Conway and Justin Brown? Were they not "marquee" players? What about Dissly? Do you think he has a chance to be a player in this league?

PapaG · Post by **PapaG** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:21 pm

twentythreeOh4 wrote:What about Damir Latovic, Pete Conway and Justin Brown? Were they not "marquee" players? What about Dissly? Do you think he has a chance to be a player in this league?

Latovic bailed out of Bozeman. Conway and Brown clearly weren't "marquee".

The only "marquee" player the past four years of recruiting currently plays before 400 fans in Ashland, OR.

Ponycat · Post by **Ponycat** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:24 pm

twentythreeOh4 wrote:
Ponycat wrote:Just for the record I wasn't suggesting that Mick doesn't run a clean program. I think he does, and I think he is a good recruiter. I just don't think he is a 1-A coach, and I think his record shows this even though I know some people think his record proves he is a good coach.
When did MSU move to 1-A?

The rest of the Big Sky plays D-I basketball.

Thanks genius, your about 8 posts late.

CLUB 126 · Post by **CLUB 126** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:46 pm

OK, lets try this, in four more years MICK will have been at MSU for 20 years,

In that time frame what do all of you think would be accebtable?

#1 record

#2 BSC record

#3 trips to the dance

why don"t those that feel MICK should stay explain their minumum standards for the baskketball program!

whitetrashgriz · Post by **whitetrashgriz** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 2:03 pm

CLUB 126 wrote:OK, lets try this, in four more years MICK will have been at MSU for 20 years,

In that time frame what do all of you think would be accebtable?

#1 record

#2 BSC record

#3 trips to the dance

why don"t those that feel MICK should stay explain their minumum standards for the baskketball program!

my opinion on this is although i like mick a lot, i'm not saying i think he's the greatest coach ever. and i'm not even saying that he should be coaching the cats next year. all i'm saying is that jumping on his ass now does nothing. if they do let mick go, it wont be until the end of the season. by that time, whose to say the team wont get rolling and win the sky? i'm not saying they will, but i hope they do and i'm not counting them out. my point was before the season, no one was bashng mick and the team. now that they've had their struggles mick is the worst coach ever, and this team is a joke. us bitching about where the team is does nothing. so when i say, i hope they get it done come conference, i'm not making excuses for their poor play so far. but it's not like if i whine enough those losses will turn into wins. so i try to be supportive and hope for the best out of this team. you dont have to agree with me always supporting the cats, whether they are playing great or not, but it's not going to change the fact that i'm right behind mick and this team until they play their last game.

CARDIAC_CATS · Post by **CARDIAC_CATS** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 2:52 pm

CLUB 126 wrote:OK, lets try this, in four more years MICK will have been at MSU for 20 years,

In that time frame what do all of you think would be accebtable?

#1 record

#2 BSC record

#3 trips to the dance

why don"t those that feel MICK should stay explain their minumum standards for the baskketball program!

Very good post. I hold the basketball program at a very high level and I think we should be top 3 AT MINIMUM in bball every year. It is pretty obvious that Mick's good teams have been teams that have very good POST presence players (Holmstad .. Latovich) and his mediocre/bad teams are all perimiter type player teams. This team overachieved last year and is underachieving this year. I like Mick as a person a lot, but the numbers cannot lie after 20 years. I think an evaluation of where we want this program to be in the future is in order. It has been below par overall of where it should be year in and year out in my opinion.

Does anyone have the average conference finish overall for MSU/Durham coached teams? While I think Mick is actually a pretty good coach overall, sometimes just a change is in order after being in a job for that long etc. I can see if he was winning championships year in and year out, but that is not the case?

So like the post above I think we need to ask what is the overall fan expectations for the men's basketball team? And after that, ask ourselves .. is the program at or exceeding those expectations on a regular basis (conference championships/tourney bids etc.).

CLUB 126 · Post by **CLUB 126** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:06 pm

I want you all to know I like MICK alot as well, Isupport the CATS always, BUT again what are YOUR STANDARDS, come on people put it in print so we can hold you to it, IF, that does not happen, again good luck MICK, good luck CATS!!!!!!!!!