Game today at 6:00

BozoneCat · Post by **BozoneCat** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 4:40 pm

VictorG wrote:However, the one thing I see repeated from last year and I didn't like the trend in your team last year...

...and the year before that, and the year before that, and the year before that...

VictorG wrote:...was the 3 point shooting. You need to develop a inside game, period. If you don't do that it's going to be a long, long season.

Agreed. Our inside game is nonexistant, we are shooting WAY too many threes and not making enough of them, we are not playing the same excellent defense that led us to that 5-0 start in league last year -- bottom line, we are just not playing as a team. There is still time to fix things, the talent is undoubtedly there, but we had better get things flipped around in a hurry, because time is running out.

Post by **rtb** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:04 pm

Everyone keeps talking about last year...what last year that great for anyone on this board? I don't remember winning the tournament which is really the pinnacle for a BSC team. When was the last time we were there? 1996. Let's stop looking back to last year. If we are going to look at the past lets longingly stare at 1996.

whitetrashgriz · Post by **whitetrashgriz** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:18 pm

rtb wrote:Everyone keeps talking about last year...what last year that great for anyone on this board? I don't remember winning the tournament which is really the pinnacle for a BSC team. When was the last time we were there? 1996. Let's stop looking back to last year. If we are going to look at the past lets longingly stare at 1996.

many of us are talking last year because it's a great measuring stick of where we are, and where we need to be. i don't think that anyone is happy with the outcome of last year. but picked to finish last, and surprising everyone make for a good season. and because we have all the same players back, some of us are boggled. just like not many of us were happy with the outcome of our football squad this(last) year, it doesn't mean we can't be happy about the positives, and look forward to a better future. i personally, would like to see the team play like they did LAST YEAR! obviously i want them to to better in the tourney, or make the tourney for that matter, but it just plain obvious that this same group of kids played great ball LAST YEAR, and i hope to see it again soon. imo.

Post by **rtb** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:56 pm

Ok, I get your point and yes, we need to at least get back to how we played last year. I am just really tired of having a decent team at best. We should be playing in the NCAA tournament every 3 or 4 years.

whitetrashgriz · Post by **whitetrashgriz** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 12:05 am

rtb wrote:Ok, I get your point and yes, we need to at least get back to how we played last year. I am just really tired of having a decent team at best. We should be playing in the NCAA tournament every 3 or 4 years.

agreed

PapaG · Post by **PapaG** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 12:29 am

"Last year" is for losers.

The 'Cats were losers last year as well. Why some of you would use this as a measuring stick baffles me.

whitetrashgriz · Post by **whitetrashgriz** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:11 am

PapaG wrote:"Last year" is for losers.

The 'Cats were losers last year as well. Why some of you would use this as a measuring stick baffles me.

what?

CelticCat · Post by **CelticCat** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:28 am

PapaG wrote:"Last year" is for losers.

The 'Cats were losers last year as well. Why some of you would use this as a measuring stick baffles me.

Maybe because we return almost everyone from that team? We expect to be better than last year, or at LEAST as good, and we are neither right now.

Why you would make an asinine comment like that baffles me. Err no it doesn't.

PapaG · Post by **PapaG** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:44 am

CelticCat wrote:
PapaG wrote:"Last year" is for losers.

The 'Cats were losers last year as well. Why some of you would use this as a measuring stick baffles me.
Maybe because we return almost everyone from that team? We expect to be better than last year, or at LEAST as good, and we are neither right now.

Why you would make an asinine comment like that baffles me. Err no it doesn't.

What does this even mean? Do I have a history of making asinine comments in your opinion?

lifeloyalsigmsu · Post by **lifeloyalsigmsu** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 12:23 pm

CelticCat wrote:
PapaG wrote:"Last year" is for losers.

The 'Cats were losers last year as well. Why some of you would use this as a measuring stick baffles me.
Maybe because we return almost everyone from that team? We expect to be better than last year, or at LEAST as good, and we are neither right now.

Why you would make an asinine comment like that baffles me. Err no it doesn't.

That comment was pretty uncalled for. PapaG has posted on these boards and ESPN for a good 4 years and he's certainly not one who makes "asinine" posts.

CelticCat · Post by **CelticCat** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:04 pm

Not a big fan of calling college kids losers. Sorry.

BozoneCat · Post by **BozoneCat** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:53 pm

CelticCat wrote:Not a big fan of calling college kids losers. Sorry.

Knowing PapaG on these boards for quite some time, I believe that comment was directed squarely at the coaching staff, not the players. If we're losing games because our players are not good enough, that isn't the fault of the kids - it is either the fault of the coaches for not recruiting good enough players, or it is the fault of the coaches for not developing and coaching the talent they have.

whitetrashgriz · Post by **whitetrashgriz** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:09 pm

BozoneCat wrote:
CelticCat wrote:Not a big fan of calling college kids losers. Sorry.
Knowing PapaG on these boards for quite some time, I believe that comment was directed squarely at the coaching staff, not the players. If we're losing games because our players are not good enough, that isn't the fault of the kids - it is either the fault of the coaches for not recruiting good enough players, or it is the fault of the coaches for not developing and coaching the talent they have.

am i the only one that think that blamining the coaches is getting overplayed? and not just here, in all sports. i just can't get a grasp on why so many people call for the coaches head when the team is not playing like they are capable. when penn state was horrible for the last 10 years, is is because jopa all of a sudden forgot how to coach? and npw he remembered again. i'm not saying that there aren't bad coaches out there. and i'm not necessarily saying that i agree with everything that mick has done. but we treat these guys like they have no talent, and can't make any plays or decisions by themselves. at what point are we going to hold the players on both the football and basketball team just a little accountable? i'd like the opinion from quast on this one because he was a college athlete. did you ever make a decision yourself to be better? did you ever concentrate so hard, that you played a near-flawless game? did you ever make a mistake that was your fault and not a poor call by kramer? as a former athlete, i remember being mad at myself when i made a mistake. if a took a bad shot, i apologized and tried to limit them. if a missed a free throw, i shot more in practice. if i didn't play defense, IT WAS MY FAULT. not coaches. what are your thoughts on this guys? sorry, i'm just getting a little annoyed with all of this!

bozbobcat · Post by **bozbobcat** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:49 pm

I agree. I wasn't an athlete, but I do believe that everyone needs to look at the individuals' responsible here. If a person in a class decides not to turn in a paper and they fail the class, it isn't the teacher's fault that the student failed. The coaches aren't on the court playing for the players and the players need to step it up. It isn't a great answer to your question whitetrash, but I hope it gives some perspective on why things aren't clicking like they should be.

BozoneCat · Post by **BozoneCat** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:27 pm

whitetrashgriz wrote:am i the only one that think that blamining the coaches is getting overplayed? and not just here, in all sports. i just can't get a grasp on why so many people call for the coaches head when the team is not playing like they are capable. when penn state was horrible for the last 10 years, is is because jopa all of a sudden forgot how to coach? and npw he remembered again. i'm not saying that there aren't bad coaches out there. and i'm not necessarily saying that i agree with everything that mick has done. but we treat these guys like they have no talent, and can't make any plays or decisions by themselves. at what point are we going to hold the players on both the football and basketball team just a little accountable? i'd like the opinion from quast on this one because he was a college athlete. did you ever make a decision yourself to be better? did you ever concentrate so hard, that you played a near-flawless game? did you ever make a mistake that was your fault and not a poor call by kramer? as a former athlete, i remember being mad at myself when i made a mistake. if a took a bad shot, i apologized and tried to limit them. if a missed a free throw, i shot more in practice. if i didn't play defense, IT WAS MY FAULT. not coaches. what are your thoughts on this guys? sorry, i'm just getting a little annoyed with all of this!

Because the coach is accountable for everything that goes on within his program. If the players are not talented enough, then he didn't recruit good enough players, which is his responsibility. If the talented players are not playing to their potential, then he isn't coaching and teaching them well enough, which is his responsibility. That might be kind of tough, but all coaches know that it comes with the territory of their jobs - which are pretty sweet jobs by most accounts. If there is a one or two season lapse in play, I think it can be forgiven - especially at our low/mid-major level of basketball. I think the criticisms of Mick are more pointed at the long-standing problems within his program over the course of his 16-year tenure as head coach. Personally, I think the criticisms are more than fair - nobody is being tough on Mick without giving him a fair shot at developing a great program, and nobody is being tough on him because of a personal vendetta, as Mick is generally thought of as a pretty nice guy and definitely a diehard Bobcat who bleeds blue and gold.

MSUCATS · Post by **MSUCATS** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:30 pm

am i the only one that think that blamining the coaches is getting overplayed? and not just here, in all sports. i just can't get a grasp on why so many people call for the coaches head when the team is not playing like they are capable. when penn state was horrible for the last 10 years, is is because jopa all of a sudden forgot how to coach? and npw he remembered again. i'm not saying that there aren't bad coaches out there. and i'm not necessarily saying that i agree with everything that mick has done. but we treat these guys like they have no talent, and can't make any plays or decisions by themselves. at what point are we going to hold the players on both the football and basketball team just a little accountable? i'd like the opinion from quast on this one because he was a college athlete. did you ever make a decision yourself to be better? did you ever concentrate so hard, that you played a near-flawless game? did you ever make a mistake that was your fault and not a poor call by kramer? as a former athlete, i remember being mad at myself when i made a mistake. if a took a bad shot, i apologized and tried to limit them. if a missed a free throw, i shot more in practice. if i didn't play defense, IT WAS MY FAULT. not coaches. what are your thoughts on this guys? sorry, i'm just getting a little annoyed with all of this!

I agree too! When will the players be held accountable for their actions on the court? They get held accountable for the things they do (or do not do) off the court. As a former athlete myself, I would never put blame on anyone but myself... It is the PLAYER'S RESPONSIBILITY to execute what they have learned in practice. If what they were learning in practice isn't right, we'd see it in a game, but shots should still be falling, etc... The only person who can make the ball go in the net is the player shooting it!!

PapaG · Post by **PapaG** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:44 pm

CelticCat wrote:Not a big fan of calling college kids losers. Sorry.

The same players who played well last year are now struggling big time.
I have no problems with the student-athletes on the team nor do I consider any of them "losers" in life. On the basketball court, however, there is a winner and a loser. Hence, when you are a part of a team that lost, you are by definition a loser. As someone who played competitive sports, I was able to separate losing on the field versus being a "loser".

That said, you still haven''t explained to me how my comment did not surprise you.

Mick is a nice guy too, but it's clear that it is time to inject some new blood into the head coaching position. I have been typing this for what, FIVE years now? It's like the movie Groundhog Day.

whitetrashgriz · Post by **whitetrashgriz** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:02 pm

BozoneCat wrote:
whitetrashgriz wrote:am i the only one that think that blamining the coaches is getting overplayed? and not just here, in all sports. i just can't get a grasp on why so many people call for the coaches head when the team is not playing like they are capable. when penn state was horrible for the last 10 years, is is because jopa all of a sudden forgot how to coach? and npw he remembered again. i'm not saying that there aren't bad coaches out there. and i'm not necessarily saying that i agree with everything that mick has done. but we treat these guys like they have no talent, and can't make any plays or decisions by themselves. at what point are we going to hold the players on both the football and basketball team just a little accountable? i'd like the opinion from quast on this one because he was a college athlete. did you ever make a decision yourself to be better? did you ever concentrate so hard, that you played a near-flawless game? did you ever make a mistake that was your fault and not a poor call by kramer? as a former athlete, i remember being mad at myself when i made a mistake. if a took a bad shot, i apologized and tried to limit them. if a missed a free throw, i shot more in practice. if i didn't play defense, IT WAS MY FAULT. not coaches. what are your thoughts on this guys? sorry, i'm just getting a little annoyed with all of this!
Because the coach is accountable for everything that goes on within his program. If the players are not talented enough, then he didn't recruit good enough players, which is his responsibility. If the talented players are not playing to their potential, then he isn't coaching and teaching them well enough, which is his responsibility. That might be kind of tough, but all coaches know that it comes with the territory of their jobs - which are pretty sweet jobs by most accounts. If there is a one or two season lapse in play, I think it can be forgiven - especially at our low/mid-major level of basketball. I think the criticisms of Mick are more pointed at the long-standing problems within his program over the course of his 16-year tenure as head coach. Personally, I think the criticisms are more than fair - nobody is being tough on Mick without giving him a fair shot at developing a great program, and nobody is being tough on him because of a personal vendetta, as Mick is generally thought of as a pretty nice guy and definitely a diehard Bobcat who bleeds blue and gold.

i agree with some of what you are saying. but here's where it doesn't make sense to me. this years team and last years team are the same! so, lets pretend that we dont know how the season ended last year with a loss to the griz. you couldn't find very many people that we unhappy with the cats at the end of the regular season. so, by your logic, at that point mick did a great job recruiting. so this year, with the same kids, i am supposed to believe that the blame lies squarely on mick because he should have seen the future, and predicted that his once great-recruits would not play the same caliber ball 2 years straight? i just dont buy it. personally, i love mick. but i understand where you guys are coming from saying that we have played mediocre ball for over a decade. and i agree. and as much as i like the guy, maybe a change would be better for the program. but no one is ever going to convince me that when a team is playing great, it's always the coaching, and when they are bad, it's always the coaching. take coach k at UM. while i know that he is a great coach, there is no denying that his team is playing great. do you think that he coaches more on making free throws than mick? do you think that he spends more time on rebounding drills than mick? do you think that he works at his offense more than mick? or does anyone think that maybe, just maybe, mick coaches these fundamentals too and the players aren't getting it done. if anyone has the time, check out a practice after work some evening. and you will see that mick hammers his players on all of these things. why the players dont give it a whirl during a game sometimes is beyond me.

CelticCat · Post by **CelticCat** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:22 pm

PapaG wrote:
CelticCat wrote:Not a big fan of calling college kids losers. Sorry.
The same players who played well last year are now struggling big time.
I have no problems with the student-athletes on the team nor do I consider any of them "losers" in life. On the basketball court, however, there is a winner and a loser. Hence, when you are a part of a team that lost, you are by definition a loser. As someone who played competitive sports, I was able to separate losing on the field versus being a "loser".

That said, you still haven''t explained to me how my comment did not surprise you.

Mick is a nice guy too, but it's clear that it is time to inject some new blood into the head coaching position. I have been typing this for what, FIVE years now? It's like the movie Groundhog Day.

I thought you were a griz fan. I get usernames mixed up sometimes.

BozoneCat · Post by **BozoneCat** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:59 pm

whitetrashgriz wrote:i agree with some of what you are saying. but here's where it doesn't make sense to me. this years team and last years team are the same! so, lets pretend that we dont know how the season ended last year with a loss to the griz. you couldn't find very many people that we unhappy with the cats at the end of the regular season. so, by your logic, at that point mick did a great job recruiting. so this year, with the same kids, i am supposed to believe that the blame lies squarely on mick because he should have seen the future, and predicted that his once great-recruits would not play the same caliber ball 2 years straight? i just dont buy it. personally, i love mick. but i understand where you guys are coming from saying that we have played mediocre ball for over a decade. and i agree. and as much as i like the guy, maybe a change would be better for the program. but no one is ever going to convince me that when a team is playing great, it's always the coaching, and when they are bad, it's always the coaching. take coach k at UM. while i know that he is a great coach, there is no denying that his team is playing great. do you think that he coaches more on making free throws than mick? do you think that he spends more time on rebounding drills than mick? do you think that he works at his offense more than mick? or does anyone think that maybe, just maybe, mick coaches these fundamentals too and the players aren't getting it done. if anyone has the time, check out a practice after work some evening. and you will see that mick hammers his players on all of these things. why the players dont give it a whirl during a game sometimes is beyond me.

Well, I think it is becoming more apparent that last year's team was only able to win games because the Big Sky was so pathetically weak. I believe the conference RPI was like 30 (out of 31) last year, and I believe that the conference RPI so far this year is about 17. We all complained before the season started about how weak our schedule is - and now we can't even win these games that should be easy!

I don't doubt that Mick teaches all these fundamentals. Somehow, though, his message is just not getting across. I agree that the players are partly to blame, because they are not playing to their abilities. That said, it is the job of the coaches to get the message across and get the most out of their players. As I said, this isn't a "new" problem, we are having the same problems that have plagued Bobcat teams for the last 16 years.

While I agree with your statement that it isn't totally fair to say "when a team is playing great, it's always the coaching, and when they are bad, it's always the coaching," that comes with the territory. Mick, and every other coach, knows that this is the way it is at every program in the country, and nobody forced him to take the job. If Mick had a history of winning 6-8 Big Sky titles in his 15 years, I doubt anyone would be putting up too much of a fuss right now. The fact is, we have 1 and a 1/2 titles in 15 years, which is unacceptable. I really thought that maybe Mick felt the heat last year, and I really thought he did a good job of coaching last year's team. This team just isn't responding, though.