Askelson Targeting Penalty

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Re: Askelson Targeting Penalty

Post by kmax » Sun Oct 01, 2023 2:08 pm

GoldstoneCat wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2023 2:03 pm
OutlanderCatAlum wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2023 1:20 pm
grizzh8r wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2023 12:46 pm
Lord Vigo wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2023 12:27 pm
The way targeting is administered across college football is a debacle and an embarrassment. The officials yesterday were in completely over their heads.
The white hat official yesterday is a known bad actor. He's the worst ref in the big sky, and has been for probably a decade. Sadly, these types of calls are indicative of his lousy track record. Wish there was some way his ineptitude could be held accountable.
Agree with all posts here on this targeting issue. Vigen, as head coach, had to be diplomatic saying the letter of the rule needs to be followed to keep players safe, Pretty sure he didn't agree with the call, though.

Something needs to change, and I think Keaton Gillogly's radio color commentator offered a reasonable suggestion: Have two categories of "targeting."
The first one being obviously "deliberate/intentional" (e.g., the Robby Hauck flavor) with the penalty the same as current, and one that is "incidental" or unintentional (e.g., Askelson's call from yesterday) with a penalty equivalent to unnecessary roughness--15 yards--then continue the play with everyone still in the game.

Sure, there would still be gray areas difficult to decipher, but it would at least offer an option if the player's action under review is in strong doubt. Not sure how such change could even be brought to the NCAA's attention for actual consideration, let alone implementation, but it's food for thought at the very least.
Yes. So simple. Flagrant 1 flagrant 2 is the framework. Every one is video reviewed anyway. With the podunk officiating in this league it's a fix that could really help.
I think your comment contains exactly why this probably wouldn’t actually help. The officials are crap. This penalty wasn’t called on field. They actually went to video review and saw just as everyone else did that he a best grazed him and still called it targeting.

I agree with the idea there should be two levels of penalty. However Big Sky refs have proven over and over again that no matter what you do you can’t fix stupid.


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Re: Askelson Targeting Penalty

Post by cat-o-nine » Sun Oct 01, 2023 2:14 pm

There was a targeting offense committed against Sean on one of his big runs that didn't get called. I don't have a link to the play, but the Vikings player clearly led with the crown of his helmet and collided directly with Sean's helmet. That play needs to be brought to the attention of the Big Sky "officials". That, coupled with the call against Nolan, is ridiculous and seriously further damages the credibility of the crew working yesterday.



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Re: Askelson Targeting Penalty

Post by MSU01 » Sun Oct 01, 2023 2:17 pm

Tweeting at the Big Sky Conference looks pretty ridiculous and will do about as much good as it did when Griz fans did it last year after they lost to Sac State on what appeared to be an incorrect catch call that wasn't overturned on review. Unless grazing an opponent's helmet with your face mask actually does count as targeting, it was a bad call. Wasn't the only bad call (or no call) yesterday either. PSU should have had a targeting review on the prior drive and a couple plays later on 2nd and goal Jared White's head got turned 90 degrees to the left on a face mask with several refs looking right at it. But MSU did what championship caliber teams do when they face adversity like this, they overcame it and won anyway. McCade O'Reilly got a lot of great game experience that will serve the team well next year once Nolan has graduated.



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Re: Askelson Targeting Penalty

Post by Rich K » Sun Oct 01, 2023 2:21 pm

MSU01 wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2023 2:17 pm
Tweeting at the Big Sky Conference looks pretty ridiculous and will do about as much good as it did when Griz fans did it last year after they lost to Sac State on what appeared to be an incorrect catch call that wasn't overturned on review. Unless grazing an opponent's helmet with your face mask actually does count as targeting, it was a bad call. Wasn't the only bad call (or no call) yesterday either. PSU should have had a targeting review on the prior drive and a couple plays later on 2nd and goal Jared White's head got turned 90 degrees to the left on a face mask with several refs looking right at it. But MSU did what championship caliber teams do when they face adversity like this, they overcame it and won anyway. McCade O'Reilly got a lot of great game experience that will serve the team well next year once Nolan has graduated.
Someone at the Big Sky Conference reads the tweets. I’m proof of that because they blocked me permanently after I asked them how many men they will allow to win the Big Sky women’s mile.


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Re: Askelson Targeting Penalty

Post by coloradocat » Sun Oct 01, 2023 4:10 pm

Rich K wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2023 2:21 pm
MSU01 wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2023 2:17 pm
Tweeting at the Big Sky Conference looks pretty ridiculous and will do about as much good as it did when Griz fans did it last year after they lost to Sac State on what appeared to be an incorrect catch call that wasn't overturned on review. Unless grazing an opponent's helmet with your face mask actually does count as targeting, it was a bad call. Wasn't the only bad call (or no call) yesterday either. PSU should have had a targeting review on the prior drive and a couple plays later on 2nd and goal Jared White's head got turned 90 degrees to the left on a face mask with several refs looking right at it. But MSU did what championship caliber teams do when they face adversity like this, they overcame it and won anyway. McCade O'Reilly got a lot of great game experience that will serve the team well next year once Nolan has graduated.
Someone at the Big Sky Conference reads the tweets. I’m proof of that because they blocked me permanently after I asked them how many men they will allow to win the Big Sky women’s mile.
Interns aren't going to change referee policies.


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Re: Askelson Targeting Penalty

Post by Catsrgrood » Sun Oct 01, 2023 4:18 pm

WalkOn79 wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2023 1:11 pm
Agreed. As bad as last week
Worse, much worse than last week’s.

I get people didn’t agree with Danny U’s, it was questionable at best, but I can see both sides to last week’s call.

This weeks? It’s simply not even a debate, this was the worst targeting call that I’ve personally ever seen.



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Re: Askelson Targeting Penalty

Post by Catsrgrood » Sun Oct 01, 2023 4:20 pm

My hope is that when this is reviewed by conference officials this week, that it gets overturned and he doesn’t miss any additional time.



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Re: Askelson Targeting Penalty

Post by MSU01 » Sun Oct 01, 2023 4:23 pm

Catsrgrood wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2023 4:20 pm
My hope is that when this is reviewed by conference officials this week, that it gets overturned and he doesn’t miss any additional time.
I also hope it gets overturned just for the sake of making a correct call, but Askelson doesn't face any additional suspension either way since the play happened in the first half.



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Re: Askelson Targeting Penalty

Post by Catsrgrood » Sun Oct 01, 2023 4:31 pm

MSU01 wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2023 4:23 pm
Catsrgrood wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2023 4:20 pm
My hope is that when this is reviewed by conference officials this week, that it gets overturned and he doesn’t miss any additional time.
I also hope it gets overturned just for the sake of making a correct call, but Askelson doesn't face any additional suspension either way since the play happened in the first half.
I thought they had to sit out two halves, my mistake.



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Re: Askelson Targeting Penalty

Post by MSU01 » Sun Oct 01, 2023 4:33 pm

Catsrgrood wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2023 4:31 pm
MSU01 wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2023 4:23 pm
Catsrgrood wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2023 4:20 pm
My hope is that when this is reviewed by conference officials this week, that it gets overturned and he doesn’t miss any additional time.
I also hope it gets overturned just for the sake of making a correct call, but Askelson doesn't face any additional suspension either way since the play happened in the first half.
I thought they had to sit out two halves, my mistake.
They do, but the half in which the ejection occurs counts as the first one.



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Re: Askelson Targeting Penalty

Post by tetoncat » Sun Oct 01, 2023 5:16 pm

My biggest issue is the lack of equal enforcement of the rule. Mellot got hit last year at EWU no penalty or review if I am rembering right. There is a hit from Sac/Idaho on UI QB. Starts at 10:31 in 2nd qrt game time and at 42:16 of the ESPN+ broadcast. QBgrabs his head, players point to head, Eck gives targeting symbol. No penalty, no review, no making player go to sidelines to get checked out. Conference doesn't give a crap about players safety and the way they hand out penalties is half-assed.

I can't get screen shot to post.


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Re: Askelson Targeting Penalty

Post by Catprint » Sun Oct 01, 2023 5:28 pm

I felt the same way at the game, after the game and today reading this post. Then, I decided to read the rules. To be honest, I have never read the rules on targeting, I simply listened to announcers and made assumptions that it always involved the crown of the helmet. Clearly, there was no leading with the crown of the helmet in this play. ](*,)

SO why do we think it has to be the crown of the helmet? Because there are TWO articles involved with Targeting in the rulebook.

Rule 9, Section 1, Article 3:
“No player shall target and make forcible contact against an opponent with the crown of the helmet.”

This article requires the crown of the helmet as well as the attribute of targeting and forcible contact. This is the common understanding we all know as targeting and applies to ALL plays and ALL situations. In this case, there was no forcible contact with the crown of the helmet. So why did they call targeting? That is because of article 4 of Rule 9, Section 1.

Rule 9, Section 1, Article 4:
ARTICLE 4. No player shall target and make forcible contact to the head or neck area of a defenseless opponent with the helmet, forearm, hand, fist, elbow or shoulder. This foul requires that there be at least one indicator of targeting.

Lets breakdown each component of this definition with regard to this particular play by Askelson. I am not an expert, I am merely trying to understand the rules and how the officials are interpreting the rules on each play.

(1) Target

In my understanding of the rules, Askleson was clearly targeting the player. Targeting does not mean breaking the rules or trying to hurt someone. It means there has to be one indicator of targeting. (and targeting in and of itself is NOT a foul as strictly defined. It is simply how the player leads to the tackle). There must be one indicator of targeting.

2) One indicator

There are four defined indicators of targeting. The one that applies in this case:
Leading with the helmet, shoulder, forearm, fist, hand or elbow to attack the head or neck area forcibly.

In the context of the rule, it means they are taking aim at the player that goes beyond a legal tackle by leading with the helmet, shoulder, etc. This in and of itself does not mandate a targeting call but there must be an indicator and in this case it is pretty obvious in the replay that Asekson is “leading with the helmet, shoulder, forearm.” Before you say ‘but it was not intentional or he only grazed him,’ read on.

3) Defenseless player

This is a key part of article 4. Article 3 applies to all plays (leading with the crown of the helmet). However, article 4 only applies to defenseless players. There are 9 definitions of a defenseless player. We don’t need to review them all but one clearly applies

A quarterback …. who has obviously given himself up and is sliding feet first

This is a key point and one every player understands. Once a QB starts to slide, the play is essentially dead and the ball is spotted at the point of the foul. In this case, the QB has started his slide 1-2 seconds before Askelson gets to him. The player must do everything possible to avoid contact with helmet, shoulder, etc. once the QB has started the slide. This is likely the main reason for the call in this case. It is essentially the difference between a targeting call and a roughing the passing call when the QB is throwing the ball.

4) Forcible contact to head or neck

I agree this is the section of the rule that is an interpretation. It is clear the “targeting” is to the head or neck area. Is it “forcible contact?” I have watched the twitter video a dozen times in slow motion and while O’Reilly’s helmet (#43) obscures the view slighty, I do see the QB’s helmet move quickly down to the ground. That movement is almost certainly caused by contact by Askelson’s helmet or shoulders. I grant it is not severe or malicious or harmful… but the rules do NOT give the officials the judgement in this case. They have to call targeting. I believe this is what the officials saw in the replay.

5) Contact with helmet, forearm, hand, fist elbow or shoulder

See above. It is clearly his helmet or shoulder that initiates the contact. In fact, further review of the video seems to indicate Askelson’s left shoulder is likely the main point of contact and the cause of the foul, not the glancing blow by the helmet.

6) When in question, it is a foul

Finally, the officials are taught and it is in the rules that if there is ANY question about targeting, it is a foul and must be called. This leaves the officials with very little wiggle room. They must confirm or overturn the call. They cannot allow the call to “Stand”. In rules jargon, it must be clearly NOT targeting.

So my final answer?

1) The rule is designed to avoid injuries.
2) The penalty is severe so coaches change what they teach and players learn differently.
3) Is there some judgment in these calls? Most certainly
4) Was it targeting in this case? I believe it was because the QB was clearly a defenseless player and that is always a place where officials are taught to error on the side of safety.
5) Could the rule be improved? Certainly, and I there have been three or four changes to the rule since 2008. I think the main future improvement would be a two stage or two level application where one level is a personal foul and the second is disqualification.
6) Are targeting calls missed in a game? Of course. but that doesn't make it a bad call. Should they have called it on the Tommy Mellot hit last year at EWU? Maybe but I watched that replay 10 times and the player actually sailed over Tommy and Tommy made contact with the ground and that caused the concussion. But just because officials miss a call, it does not make it a bad call when they do one right. Four missed holding calls in game does not make the 5th time when the officials catch holding and throw the flag a bad call!
6) Do I like the call? Not a chance but I honestly think the officials were doing their job as best as possible and the rule is designed to make the call when there is any question.

I believe they made the right call. Feel free to disagree. :-k



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Re: Askelson Targeting Penalty

Post by tetoncat » Sun Oct 01, 2023 5:42 pm

Catprint wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2023 5:28 pm
I felt the same way at the game, after the game and today reading this post. Then, I decided to read the rules. To be honest, I have never read the rules on targeting, I simply listened to announcers and made assumptions that it always involved the crown of the helmet. Clearly, there was no leading with the crown of the helmet in this play. ](*,)

SO why do we think it has to be the crown of the helmet? Because there are TWO articles involved with Targeting in the rulebook.

Rule 9, Section 1, Article 3:
“No player shall target and make forcible contact against an opponent with the crown of the helmet.”

This article requires the crown of the helmet as well as the attribute of targeting and forcible contact. This is the common understanding we all know as targeting and applies to ALL plays and ALL situations. In this case, there was no forcible contact with the crown of the helmet. So why did they call targeting? That is because of article 4 of Rule 9, Section 1.

Rule 9, Section 1, Article 4:
ARTICLE 4. No player shall target and make forcible contact to the head or neck area of a defenseless opponent with the helmet, forearm, hand, fist, elbow or shoulder. This foul requires that there be at least one indicator of targeting.

Lets breakdown each component of this definition with regard to this particular play by Askelson. I am not an expert, I am merely trying to understand the rules and how the officials are interpreting the rules on each play.

(1) Target

In my understanding of the rules, Askleson was clearly targeting the player. Targeting does not mean breaking the rules or trying to hurt someone. It means there has to be one indicator of targeting. (and targeting in and of itself is NOT a foul as strictly defined. It is simply how the player leads to the tackle). There must be one indicator of targeting.

2) One indicator

There are four defined indicators of targeting. The one that applies in this case:
Leading with the helmet, shoulder, forearm, fist, hand or elbow to attack the head or neck area forcibly.

In the context of the rule, it means they are taking aim at the player that goes beyond a legal tackle by leading with the helmet, shoulder, etc. This in and of itself does not mandate a targeting call but there must be an indicator and in this case it is pretty obvious in the replay that Asekson is “leading with the helmet, shoulder, forearm.” Before you say ‘but it was not intentional or he only grazed him,’ read on.

3) Defenseless player

This is a key part of article 4. Article 3 applies to all plays (leading with the crown of the helmet). However, article 4 only applies to defenseless players. There are 9 definitions of a defenseless player. We don’t need to review them all but one clearly applies

A quarterback …. who has obviously given himself up and is sliding feet first

This is a key point and one every player understands. Once a QB starts to slide, the play is essentially dead and the ball is spotted at the point of the foul. In this case, the QB has started his slide 1-2 seconds before Askelson gets to him. The player must do everything possible to avoid contact with helmet, shoulder, etc. once the QB has started the slide. This is likely the main reason for the call in this case. It is essentially the difference between a targeting call and a roughing the passing call when the QB is throwing the ball.

4) Forcible contact to head or neck

I agree this is the section of the rule that is an interpretation. It is clear the “targeting” is to the head or neck area. Is it “forcible contact?” I have watched the twitter video a dozen times in slow motion and while O’Reilly’s helmet (#43) obscures the view slighty, I do see the QB’s helmet move quickly down to the ground. That movement is almost certainly caused by contact by Askelson’s helmet or shoulders. I grant it is not severe or malicious or harmful… but the rules do NOT give the officials the judgement in this case. They have to call targeting. I believe this is what the officials saw in the replay.

5) Contact with helmet, forearm, hand, fist elbow or shoulder

See above. It is clearly his helmet or shoulder that initiates the contact. In fact, further review of the video seems to indicate Askelson’s left shoulder is likely the main point of contact and the cause of the foul, not the glancing blow by the helmet.

6) When in question, it is a foul

Finally, the officials are taught and it is in the rules that if there is ANY question about targeting, it is a foul and must be called. This leaves the officials with very little wiggle room. They must confirm or overturn the call. They cannot allow the call to “Stand”. In rules jargon, it must be clearly NOT targeting.

So my final answer?

1) The rule is designed to avoid injuries.
2) The penalty is severe so coaches change what they teach and players learn differently.
3) Is there some judgment in these calls? Most certainly
4) Was it targeting in this case? I believe it was because the QB was clearly a defenseless player and that is always a place where officials are taught to error on the side of safety.
5) Could the rule be improved? Certainly, and I there have been three or four changes to the rule since 2008. I think the main future improvement would be a two stage or two level application where one level is a personal foul and the second is disqualification.
6) Are targeting calls missed in a game? Of course. but that doesn't make it a bad call. Should they have called it on the Tommy Mellot hit last year at EWU? Maybe but I watched that replay 10 times and the player actually sailed over Tommy and Tommy made contact with the ground and that caused the concussion. But just because officials miss a call, it does not make it a bad call when they do one right. Four missed holding calls in game does not make the 5th time when the officials catch holding and throw the flag a bad call!
6) Do I like the call? Not a chance but I honestly think the officials were doing their job as best as possible and the rule is designed to make the call when there is any question.

I believe they made the right call. Feel free to disagree. :-k
You think that Tommy's head bounced off the turf because of his slide? The force of that tackle against a defenseless player caused it.

Missing a holding call is not reviewed. So that is not a good comparison. These calls are "randomly" reviewed. Neither play this year was initially a penalty but changed on review, yet the example I posted above in Idaho/Sac was not even though player was clearly slow getting up.


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Re: Askelson Targeting Penalty

Post by justafan » Sun Oct 01, 2023 5:46 pm

tetoncat wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2023 5:16 pm
My biggest issue is the lack of equal enforcement of the rule. Mellot got hit last year at EWU no penalty or review if I am rembering right. There is a hit from Sac/Idaho on UI QB. Starts at 10:31 in 2nd qrt game time and at 42:16 of the ESPN+ broadcast. QBgrabs his head, players point to head, Eck gives targeting symbol. No penalty, no review, no making player go to sidelines to get checked out. Conference doesn't give a crap about players safety and the way they hand out penalties is half-assed.

I can't get screen shot to post.
i saw that it was blatant.



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Re: Askelson Targeting Penalty

Post by 84CatGrad » Sun Oct 01, 2023 6:58 pm

I'm one of the biggest referee supporters on this site and usually give them the benefit of the doubt but that certainly does not look like anything close to enough contact for targeting.



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Re: Askelson Targeting Penalty

Post by onceacat » Sun Oct 01, 2023 7:20 pm

GoCats18 wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2023 2:06 pm
What’s crazy to me is that this is the kind of helmet to helmet contact that occurs on probable 80% of tackles. We should probably stating reviewing every tackle during the game. This is one of the worst calls I have seen.
Just to be clear, it was a terrible call. That said, its the 'defenseless player' aspect that gets this bumped from a normal tackle to to targeting.

It shouldn't even have been a late hit IMO, since the contact was so incidental. But its the 'defenceless' part of a sliding QB that generates the targeting in this case.



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Re: Askelson Targeting Penalty

Post by onceacat » Sun Oct 01, 2023 7:32 pm

Catprint wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2023 5:28 pm
I felt the same way at the game, after the game and today reading this post. Then, I decided to read the rules. To be honest, I have never read the rules on targeting, I simply listened to announcers and made assumptions that it always involved the crown of the helmet. Clearly, there was no leading with the crown of the helmet in this play. ](*,)

SO why do we think it has to be the crown of the helmet? Because there are TWO articles involved with Targeting in the rulebook.

Rule 9, Section 1, Article 3:
“No player shall target and make forcible contact against an opponent with the crown of the helmet.”

This article requires the crown of the helmet as well as the attribute of targeting and forcible contact. This is the common understanding we all know as targeting and applies to ALL plays and ALL situations. In this case, there was no forcible contact with the crown of the helmet. So why did they call targeting? That is because of article 4 of Rule 9, Section 1.

Rule 9, Section 1, Article 4:
ARTICLE 4. No player shall target and make forcible contact to the head or neck area of a defenseless opponent with the helmet, forearm, hand, fist, elbow or shoulder. This foul requires that there be at least one indicator of targeting.

Lets breakdown each component of this definition with regard to this particular play by Askelson. I am not an expert, I am merely trying to understand the rules and how the officials are interpreting the rules on each play.

(1) Target

In my understanding of the rules, Askleson was clearly targeting the player. Targeting does not mean breaking the rules or trying to hurt someone. It means there has to be one indicator of targeting. (and targeting in and of itself is NOT a foul as strictly defined. It is simply how the player leads to the tackle). There must be one indicator of targeting.

2) One indicator

There are four defined indicators of targeting. The one that applies in this case:
Leading with the helmet, shoulder, forearm, fist, hand or elbow to attack the head or neck area forcibly.

In the context of the rule, it means they are taking aim at the player that goes beyond a legal tackle by leading with the helmet, shoulder, etc. This in and of itself does not mandate a targeting call but there must be an indicator and in this case it is pretty obvious in the replay that Asekson is “leading with the helmet, shoulder, forearm.” Before you say ‘but it was not intentional or he only grazed him,’ read on.

3) Defenseless player

This is a key part of article 4. Article 3 applies to all plays (leading with the crown of the helmet). However, article 4 only applies to defenseless players. There are 9 definitions of a defenseless player. We don’t need to review them all but one clearly applies

A quarterback …. who has obviously given himself up and is sliding feet first

This is a key point and one every player understands. Once a QB starts to slide, the play is essentially dead and the ball is spotted at the point of the foul. In this case, the QB has started his slide 1-2 seconds before Askelson gets to him. The player must do everything possible to avoid contact with helmet, shoulder, etc. once the QB has started the slide. This is likely the main reason for the call in this case. It is essentially the difference between a targeting call and a roughing the passing call when the QB is throwing the ball.

4) Forcible contact to head or neck

I agree this is the section of the rule that is an interpretation. It is clear the “targeting” is to the head or neck area. Is it “forcible contact?” I have watched the twitter video a dozen times in slow motion and while O’Reilly’s helmet (#43) obscures the view slighty, I do see the QB’s helmet move quickly down to the ground. That movement is almost certainly caused by contact by Askelson’s helmet or shoulders. I grant it is not severe or malicious or harmful… but the rules do NOT give the officials the judgement in this case. They have to call targeting. I believe this is what the officials saw in the replay.

5) Contact with helmet, forearm, hand, fist elbow or shoulder

See above. It is clearly his helmet or shoulder that initiates the contact. In fact, further review of the video seems to indicate Askelson’s left shoulder is likely the main point of contact and the cause of the foul, not the glancing blow by the helmet.

6) When in question, it is a foul

Finally, the officials are taught and it is in the rules that if there is ANY question about targeting, it is a foul and must be called. This leaves the officials with very little wiggle room. They must confirm or overturn the call. They cannot allow the call to “Stand”. In rules jargon, it must be clearly NOT targeting.

So my final answer?

1) The rule is designed to avoid injuries.
2) The penalty is severe so coaches change what they teach and players learn differently.
3) Is there some judgment in these calls? Most certainly
4) Was it targeting in this case? I believe it was because the QB was clearly a defenseless player and that is always a place where officials are taught to error on the side of safety.
5) Could the rule be improved? Certainly, and I there have been three or four changes to the rule since 2008. I think the main future improvement would be a two stage or two level application where one level is a personal foul and the second is disqualification.
6) Are targeting calls missed in a game? Of course. but that doesn't make it a bad call. Should they have called it on the Tommy Mellot hit last year at EWU? Maybe but I watched that replay 10 times and the player actually sailed over Tommy and Tommy made contact with the ground and that caused the concussion. But just because officials miss a call, it does not make it a bad call when they do one right. Four missed holding calls in game does not make the 5th time when the officials catch holding and throw the flag a bad call!
6) Do I like the call? Not a chance but I honestly think the officials were doing their job as best as possible and the rule is designed to make the call when there is any question.

I believe they made the right call. Feel free to disagree. :-k
Great analysis. My only quibble would be "forcible" contact. It was clearly a glancing hit & not anything close to "forcible contact."

The first line of the rule is "...target AND make forcible contact..." (emphasis mine)

Askelson should have pulled up...if he had, he might not have been flagged...and coaches need to teach that better.

But it sure looks like a bad call to me.



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Re: Askelson Targeting Penalty

Post by CatBlitz » Sun Oct 01, 2023 9:02 pm

At this point, knock the QB out of the game.
You're going to get a penalty no matter what you do so make it count.

I kid... Mostly...


Don't let this distract you from the fact that the griz blew a 22-0 lead.

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GoCats18
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Re: Askelson Targeting Penalty

Post by GoCats18 » Mon Oct 02, 2023 1:04 am

So going off that rule, how was Robby Hauck not ejected from almost every game he played in?


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Re: Askelson Targeting Penalty

Post by TomCat88 » Mon Oct 02, 2023 7:36 am

Catprint wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2023 5:28 pm
I felt the same way at the game, after the game and today reading this post. Then, I decided to read the rules. To be honest, I have never read the rules on targeting, I simply listened to announcers and made assumptions that it always involved the crown of the helmet. Clearly, there was no leading with the crown of the helmet in this play. ](*,)

SO why do we think it has to be the crown of the helmet? Because there are TWO articles involved with Targeting in the rulebook.

Rule 9, Section 1, Article 3:
“No player shall target and make forcible contact against an opponent with the crown of the helmet.”

This article requires the crown of the helmet as well as the attribute of targeting and forcible contact. This is the common understanding we all know as targeting and applies to ALL plays and ALL situations. In this case, there was no forcible contact with the crown of the helmet. So why did they call targeting? That is because of article 4 of Rule 9, Section 1.

Rule 9, Section 1, Article 4:
ARTICLE 4. No player shall target and make forcible contact to the head or neck area of a defenseless opponent with the helmet, forearm, hand, fist, elbow or shoulder. This foul requires that there be at least one indicator of targeting.

Lets breakdown each component of this definition with regard to this particular play by Askelson. I am not an expert, I am merely trying to understand the rules and how the officials are interpreting the rules on each play.

(1) Target

In my understanding of the rules, Askleson was clearly targeting the player. Targeting does not mean breaking the rules or trying to hurt someone. It means there has to be one indicator of targeting. (and targeting in and of itself is NOT a foul as strictly defined. It is simply how the player leads to the tackle). There must be one indicator of targeting.

2) One indicator

There are four defined indicators of targeting. The one that applies in this case:
Leading with the helmet, shoulder, forearm, fist, hand or elbow to attack the head or neck area forcibly.

In the context of the rule, it means they are taking aim at the player that goes beyond a legal tackle by leading with the helmet, shoulder, etc. This in and of itself does not mandate a targeting call but there must be an indicator and in this case it is pretty obvious in the replay that Asekson is “leading with the helmet, shoulder, forearm.” Before you say ‘but it was not intentional or he only grazed him,’ read on.

3) Defenseless player

This is a key part of article 4. Article 3 applies to all plays (leading with the crown of the helmet). However, article 4 only applies to defenseless players. There are 9 definitions of a defenseless player. We don’t need to review them all but one clearly applies

A quarterback …. who has obviously given himself up and is sliding feet first

This is a key point and one every player understands. Once a QB starts to slide, the play is essentially dead and the ball is spotted at the point of the foul. In this case, the QB has started his slide 1-2 seconds before Askelson gets to him. The player must do everything possible to avoid contact with helmet, shoulder, etc. once the QB has started the slide. This is likely the main reason for the call in this case. It is essentially the difference between a targeting call and a roughing the passing call when the QB is throwing the ball.

4) Forcible contact to head or neck

I agree this is the section of the rule that is an interpretation. It is clear the “targeting” is to the head or neck area. Is it “forcible contact?” I have watched the twitter video a dozen times in slow motion and while O’Reilly’s helmet (#43) obscures the view slighty, I do see the QB’s helmet move quickly down to the ground. That movement is almost certainly caused by contact by Askelson’s helmet or shoulders. I grant it is not severe or malicious or harmful… but the rules do NOT give the officials the judgement in this case. They have to call targeting. I believe this is what the officials saw in the replay.

5) Contact with helmet, forearm, hand, fist elbow or shoulder

See above. It is clearly his helmet or shoulder that initiates the contact. In fact, further review of the video seems to indicate Askelson’s left shoulder is likely the main point of contact and the cause of the foul, not the glancing blow by the helmet.

6) When in question, it is a foul

Finally, the officials are taught and it is in the rules that if there is ANY question about targeting, it is a foul and must be called. This leaves the officials with very little wiggle room. They must confirm or overturn the call. They cannot allow the call to “Stand”. In rules jargon, it must be clearly NOT targeting.

So my final answer?

1) The rule is designed to avoid injuries.
2) The penalty is severe so coaches change what they teach and players learn differently.
3) Is there some judgment in these calls? Most certainly
4) Was it targeting in this case? I believe it was because the QB was clearly a defenseless player and that is always a place where officials are taught to error on the side of safety.
5) Could the rule be improved? Certainly, and I there have been three or four changes to the rule since 2008. I think the main future improvement would be a two stage or two level application where one level is a personal foul and the second is disqualification.
6) Are targeting calls missed in a game? Of course. but that doesn't make it a bad call. Should they have called it on the Tommy Mellot hit last year at EWU? Maybe but I watched that replay 10 times and the player actually sailed over Tommy and Tommy made contact with the ground and that caused the concussion. But just because officials miss a call, it does not make it a bad call when they do one right. Four missed holding calls in game does not make the 5th time when the officials catch holding and throw the flag a bad call!
6) Do I like the call? Not a chance but I honestly think the officials were doing their job as best as possible and the rule is designed to make the call when there is any question.

I believe they made the right call. Feel free to disagree. :-k
That’s excellent. Thanks for doing this.


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