OL Grades & Thoughts - Weber State

[Joe Bobcat]

I was gone for a few hours, what'd I miss?

Some deeply nuanced discussion on how the Cats are rushing this year. I love it because it's super football nerdery and I'm here for it.

Good analysis Sig. I would say it's been 1000 words of did so, did not, did so, did not, did so, well if I did I'll try to not do it again.
All of those words to say that other teams have figured out the Bobcat run game and what they have figured out is:
(read this like Ty Gregorak yelling to emphasize a point) TEAMS HAVE FIGURED OUT THAT THEY CAN'T STOP THE BOBCAT RUN GAME.

BEN

SUNBURST MONTANA!
THE ALASKAN ASSASSIN!
ben

FIFY

[grizzh8r]

I was gone for a few hours, what'd I miss?

Some deeply nuanced discussion on how the Cats are rushing this year. I love it because it's super football nerdery and I'm here for it.

Good analysis Sig. I would say it's been 1000 words of did so, did not, did so, did not, did so, well if I did I'll try to not do it again.
All of those words to say that other teams have figured out the Bobcat run game and what they have figured out is:
(read this like Ty Gregorak yelling to emphasize a point) TEAMS HAVE FIGURED OUT THAT THEY CAN'T STOP THE BOBCAT RUN GAME.

BEN

FROM WHERE BEN? SUNBURST MONTANA!

Love that guy.

[MTFootball]

I think the offense has been slow to get started so far this year, but I think it was at this time last year, too. I know we started with a 3 and out against Weber and SDSU. I also know that against W&M we started slow, too, which had me worried.

But I think a lot of that is because the early play calls have been a lot of runs up the middle. Those type of runs usually don’t get a teams lot of yards early in the game. Also, both Weber and W&M have stud middle LBs that we wanted to get focused on stopping the inside runs. Once they (and the safeties) overcommitted to the inside run, we got them trapped there and ran to the outside or passed.

We had 2 games last year where we didn’t even punt, so no slow starts in those games. But, those were both late in the year when things were clicking and we had an established identity. This year I think the coaches are trying to establish that we can run inside as well as outside. I also think the games against UT and Stetson were used more for working on things that we need to improve on.

[BelligerentBobcat]

I was gone for a few hours, what'd I miss?

Some deeply nuanced discussion on how the Cats are rushing this year. I love it because it's super football nerdery and I'm here for it.

Good analysis Sig. I would say it's been 1000 words of did so, did not, did so, did not, did so, well if I did I'll try to not do it again.
All of those words to say that other teams have figured out the Bobcat run game and what they have figured out is:
(read this like Ty Gregorak yelling to emphasize a point) TEAMS HAVE FIGURED OUT THAT THEY CAN'T STOP THE BOBCAT RUN GAME.

BEN

FROM WHERE BEN? SUNBURST MONTANA!

Love that guy.

LIKE WATCHING A FOREIGN FILM WITHOUT SUBTITLES! IT’S HARD TO DO!

[MSU01]

I think the offense has been slow to get started so far this year, but I think it was at this time last year, too. I know we started with a 3 and out against Weber and SDSU. I also know that against W&M we started slow, too, which had me worried.

But I think a lot of that is because the early play calls have been a lot of runs up the middle. Those type of runs usually don’t get a teams lot of yards early in the game. Also, both Weber and W&M have stud middle LBs that we wanted to get focused on stopping the inside runs. Once they (and the safeties) overcommitted to the inside run, we got them trapped there and ran to the outside or passed.

We had 2 games last year where we didn’t even punt, so no slow starts in those games. But, those were both late in the year when things were clicking and we had an established identity. This year I think the coaches are trying to establish that we can run inside as well as outside. I also think the games against UT and Stetson were used more for working on things that we need to improve on.

Utah Tech: Turnover on downs at the 1-yard line on the first possession, then 4 straight TDs before MSU punted.
SDSU: Four first half drives went punt, TD, FG, punt. Two of the three plays on the first drive 3-and-out were passes.
Stetson: TDs on first five possessions
Weber: Seven first half drives went punt, missed FG, TD, punt, TD, TD, missed FG

I don't think I'd call this a pattern of slow starts on offense. When playing stronger opponents like SDSU and Weber there will always be drives that aren't successful, but MSU has either scored or been in a position to score by its second drive at the latest in every game so far.

[coloradocat]

I was gone for a few hours, what'd I miss?

Some deeply nuanced discussion on how the Cats are rushing this year. I love it because it's super football nerdery and I'm here for it.

Good analysis Sig. I would say it's been 1000 words of did so, did not, did so, did not, did so, well if I did I'll try to not do it again.
All of those words to say that other teams have figured out the Bobcat run game and what they have figured out is:
(read this like Ty Gregorak yelling to emphasize a point) TEAMS HAVE FIGURED OUT THAT THEY CAN'T STOP THE BOBCAT RUN GAME.

BEN

FROM WHERE BEN? SUNBURST MONTANA!

Love that guy.

LIKE WATCHING A FOREIGN FILM WITHOUT SUBTITLES! IT’S HARD TO DO!

(INSERT 90s MOVIE REFERENCE)

[catatac]

If you want to disagree, disagree, but don't say I said things I didn't say. And if you feel like it's quibbling, then rise above and don't quibble or respond. That's what I do. I think the debate (or quibbling as you call it, is fun). I just don't like to debate with someone that's going to misrepresent my words. No one's making you read my posts and I don't just post for you or anyone else. I like to bring things to light for everyone on the board and have been doing so for years. I've been disagreed with numerous times, but rarely does anyone take what I say out of context. Many people have posted that they think the offense seems different or not as effective as it was last year. That could be due to how it's being defensed via defensive alignments and execution.

If you don't like what I'm saying and you find it annoying, then block me, but I don't appreciate having you post that I've said something that I haven't said and then try to say that I'm moving the target or whatever. And even if you do feel that way, remember that it's just a game. Try to have fun with it, including the conversations/debates/quibbling that you have. Just don't misrepresent people's words.

As for the run game, here's a breakdown of plays for anyone that's interested in exploring the notion that MSU's run game isn't functioning in the same way, and in some ways as effectively, as it did last year:

First half:
5r, 2r, 1r, punt;
1r, 0r, 20p, 0p, 11r, 22p, 1r, 2r, 2r, miss FG;
30p, 8r, 15r, 12r, 29p(td);
-5r, -2r, 2r, punt; 0p, 33r, 9r, 20r, 0p, 10r(td);
17r, 29r(td);
0p, 8r, 10r, 0p, 0p, 19p, 11p, 0p, 0p, miss FG.
(3-6 rushing; 0-0 passing first drive; 9-25 rushing; 3-42 passing thru 2 drives; 12-60 rushing; 4-111 passing over the first three drives.)

Second half: 6r, 11r, 4r, -5r, -7r, punt; 5-9 rushing 0-0 passing.
20r, 7r, 2r, 10r, 2r, 1r, 0r punt; 6-42 rushing, 0-0 passing.
24p(td) 0-0 rushing, 1-24 passing.
17p, 7r, -11, -1, 4r, 34r, 14r(td) 6-64 rushing, 0-0 passing
58r(td) 1-58 rushing 0-0 passing.
Took knee.

Not only a slow start to first half, but also the second half. Both slow starts were run heavy and the offense was ignited by the pass in both cases. This isn't saying that MSU's run game was ground to a halt all game. My recollection is that MSU started games hot running the ball often in 2022 and that hasn't been the case in 2023. That's not me saying the run game is a bust or is in regression. The run game can be good in other ways than getting off to a fast start and still be very effective.

This would make MSU vulnerable to good teams, however, MSU's defense is playing at such a high level that MSU can get away with a slow start or even a subpar day in the run game and still win decidedly. If a team is hitting on all cylinders on offense or if MSU is having a bad day on defense, then it might be a different story.

You can say it means absolutely nothing, just don't call me late for dinner.

If I read something on the forum that I strongly agree or disagree with, I'm probably going to respond. That's literally the only point of being here: to interact with other fans about MSU football.

I don't find you annoying. If I did, I probably wouldn't engage. I definitely am not going to block you (again, that defeats the purpose of a forum). However, I do think you've moved the goal posts of your argument, which is why you think I'm putting words in your mouth when I'm at least not intending to do that.

Anyways, the funny thing is that we basically agree on this team 98% of the way. You said the passing game needs to come along, and I agree with that. I said the defense improving was more important even than the passing game, and you agreed with that. We just diverge on how vulnerable we think the rushing offense is to being scouted, figured out, slowed down, shut down, or whatever other term has been used in this meandering conversation.

I don't think a game in which the Cats ran for 346 yards at 7.8 YPC against a team that is probably going to be hard for most to run on this season is great evidence for your thesis. That's pretty much it.

Yes, I respond when I disagree too, but I don't put words in someone's mouth that they didn't say. At least I try not to and if I do and it's pointed out I apologize and re-word what I said.

The argument I made is that opposing coaches are going to watch MSU's offense and figure out ways to make it less effective. My original words were "shut it down" which I've since admitted are hyperbole. With that I said that if you can figure out how to slow MSU's run game down and MSU doesn't compensate that by having a better pass game or a better defense then MSU is vulnerable in its five road games vs. ranked opponents.

You're looking at the overall stats. Some teams have good stats because they make a bunch of big plays late when the game is over and the defense isn't engaged (if it's losing) or when their subs are in (if it's way ahead).

MSU had 346 yards. I was at the game and tracked every play. I realize that if you just read the box score this is very impressive. But you have to take into account what it's measured against (last year's team) and how it came to be (garbage time or crunch time). There's 'statistically impressive' and then there's 'crunch time impressive.' MSU's run game had a statistically impressive game, but not a crunch time impressive game relative to how it played last year. MSU had a 58-yard TD run by Elijah Elliott that was against a team that was gassed, had its subs in and was mentally checked out. The prior drive MSU had two runs for 48 yards. Now you're down to 240 yards. It's a great run and I like Elliott and others, but it's not the same thing as a first quarter run or a run in a tight game with everyone highly engaged. Looking back at last year just off the top of my head there were big runs early...Chambers vs UC Davis; Mellott vs WSU; Mellott vs NAU; Elliott vs EWU; Johnson vs Cal Poly like 3(?) times; a bunch vs Montana (I think MSU ran it the first 17 times and had 3 tds); Ifanse vs William and Mary; and that's just off memory. There's been a couple this year, but like everything else it hasn't been with the frequency as last season. It's just been four games, but that's a drop-off. Perhaps the sheer numbers still look good and maybe a lot of MSU's numbers last season came late, too. But you have to admit that MSU's run game is nowhere near as explosive out of the gate as it was last season and that is most likely not anything MSU is doing wrong, but what opposing teams are doing. Maybe it's just a matter of time before MSU starts to pile it on with the run from the first possession on, we'll see, but right now that's not what they're doing.

I think it's abundantly clear that last year MSU was coming out and shoving the ball down teams throats from the getgo last year. This year not so much. This last game was a clear example and all four games have seen slow starts by the run game. You have to ask yourself why that is. Is it because MSU has less talent? Is it because the other teams are really good? Is it because other teams have stacked the box early only to be hit with the pass and then when they back off, MSU guts them with the run?

Regarding your last paragraph there on the Why's.....those aren't the only options. The other option would be, because the coaches are intentionally doing things differently, and Tommy isn't playing. That's my vote.

[TomCat88]

If you want to disagree, disagree, but don't say I said things I didn't say. And if you feel like it's quibbling, then rise above and don't quibble or respond. That's what I do. I think the debate (or quibbling as you call it, is fun). I just don't like to debate with someone that's going to misrepresent my words. No one's making you read my posts and I don't just post for you or anyone else. I like to bring things to light for everyone on the board and have been doing so for years. I've been disagreed with numerous times, but rarely does anyone take what I say out of context. Many people have posted that they think the offense seems different or not as effective as it was last year. That could be due to how it's being defensed via defensive alignments and execution.

If you don't like what I'm saying and you find it annoying, then block me, but I don't appreciate having you post that I've said something that I haven't said and then try to say that I'm moving the target or whatever. And even if you do feel that way, remember that it's just a game. Try to have fun with it, including the conversations/debates/quibbling that you have. Just don't misrepresent people's words.

As for the run game, here's a breakdown of plays for anyone that's interested in exploring the notion that MSU's run game isn't functioning in the same way, and in some ways as effectively, as it did last year:

First half:
5r, 2r, 1r, punt;
1r, 0r, 20p, 0p, 11r, 22p, 1r, 2r, 2r, miss FG;
30p, 8r, 15r, 12r, 29p(td);
-5r, -2r, 2r, punt; 0p, 33r, 9r, 20r, 0p, 10r(td);
17r, 29r(td);
0p, 8r, 10r, 0p, 0p, 19p, 11p, 0p, 0p, miss FG.
(3-6 rushing; 0-0 passing first drive; 9-25 rushing; 3-42 passing thru 2 drives; 12-60 rushing; 4-111 passing over the first three drives.)

Second half: 6r, 11r, 4r, -5r, -7r, punt; 5-9 rushing 0-0 passing.
20r, 7r, 2r, 10r, 2r, 1r, 0r punt; 6-42 rushing, 0-0 passing.
24p(td) 0-0 rushing, 1-24 passing.
17p, 7r, -11, -1, 4r, 34r, 14r(td) 6-64 rushing, 0-0 passing
58r(td) 1-58 rushing 0-0 passing.
Took knee.

Not only a slow start to first half, but also the second half. Both slow starts were run heavy and the offense was ignited by the pass in both cases. This isn't saying that MSU's run game was ground to a halt all game. My recollection is that MSU started games hot running the ball often in 2022 and that hasn't been the case in 2023. That's not me saying the run game is a bust or is in regression. The run game can be good in other ways than getting off to a fast start and still be very effective.

This would make MSU vulnerable to good teams, however, MSU's defense is playing at such a high level that MSU can get away with a slow start or even a subpar day in the run game and still win decidedly. If a team is hitting on all cylinders on offense or if MSU is having a bad day on defense, then it might be a different story.

You can say it means absolutely nothing, just don't call me late for dinner.

If I read something on the forum that I strongly agree or disagree with, I'm probably going to respond. That's literally the only point of being here: to interact with other fans about MSU football.

I don't find you annoying. If I did, I probably wouldn't engage. I definitely am not going to block you (again, that defeats the purpose of a forum). However, I do think you've moved the goal posts of your argument, which is why you think I'm putting words in your mouth when I'm at least not intending to do that.

Anyways, the funny thing is that we basically agree on this team 98% of the way. You said the passing game needs to come along, and I agree with that. I said the defense improving was more important even than the passing game, and you agreed with that. We just diverge on how vulnerable we think the rushing offense is to being scouted, figured out, slowed down, shut down, or whatever other term has been used in this meandering conversation.

I don't think a game in which the Cats ran for 346 yards at 7.8 YPC against a team that is probably going to be hard for most to run on this season is great evidence for your thesis. That's pretty much it.

Yes, I respond when I disagree too, but I don't put words in someone's mouth that they didn't say. At least I try not to and if I do and it's pointed out I apologize and re-word what I said.

The argument I made is that opposing coaches are going to watch MSU's offense and figure out ways to make it less effective. My original words were "shut it down" which I've since admitted are hyperbole. With that I said that if you can figure out how to slow MSU's run game down and MSU doesn't compensate that by having a better pass game or a better defense then MSU is vulnerable in its five road games vs. ranked opponents.

You're looking at the overall stats. Some teams have good stats because they make a bunch of big plays late when the game is over and the defense isn't engaged (if it's losing) or when their subs are in (if it's way ahead).

MSU had 346 yards. I was at the game and tracked every play. I realize that if you just read the box score this is very impressive. But you have to take into account what it's measured against (last year's team) and how it came to be (garbage time or crunch time). There's 'statistically impressive' and then there's 'crunch time impressive.' MSU's run game had a statistically impressive game, but not a crunch time impressive game relative to how it played last year. MSU had a 58-yard TD run by Elijah Elliott that was against a team that was gassed, had its subs in and was mentally checked out. The prior drive MSU had two runs for 48 yards. Now you're down to 240 yards. It's a great run and I like Elliott and others, but it's not the same thing as a first quarter run or a run in a tight game with everyone highly engaged. Looking back at last year just off the top of my head there were big runs early...Chambers vs UC Davis; Mellott vs WSU; Mellott vs NAU; Elliott vs EWU; Johnson vs Cal Poly like 3(?) times; a bunch vs Montana (I think MSU ran it the first 17 times and had 3 tds); Ifanse vs William and Mary; and that's just off memory. There's been a couple this year, but like everything else it hasn't been with the frequency as last season. It's just been four games, but that's a drop-off. Perhaps the sheer numbers still look good and maybe a lot of MSU's numbers last season came late, too. But you have to admit that MSU's run game is nowhere near as explosive out of the gate as it was last season and that is most likely not anything MSU is doing wrong, but what opposing teams are doing. Maybe it's just a matter of time before MSU starts to pile it on with the run from the first possession on, we'll see, but right now that's not what they're doing.

I think it's abundantly clear that last year MSU was coming out and shoving the ball down teams throats from the getgo last year. This year not so much. This last game was a clear example and all four games have seen slow starts by the run game. You have to ask yourself why that is. Is it because MSU has less talent? Is it because the other teams are really good? Is it because other teams have stacked the box early only to be hit with the pass and then when they back off, MSU guts them with the run?

Regarding your last paragraph there on the Why's.....those aren't the only options. The other option would be, because the coaches are intentionally doing things differently, and Tommy isn't playing. That's my vote.

Very likely. This next game will be interesting to see what Barney does. He said he was interested to see if he MSU will do anything special to stop his qb. Chachere(sp?)