Moving up

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Cat Grad
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Re: Moving up

Post by Cat Grad » Sun May 28, 2023 10:11 am

onceacat wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 9:46 am
Cat Grad wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 6:31 am
Best to form a new conference. The four Dakotas, a couple from Idaho, both Montana schools, cast off pac or MWC schools, NMSU, Weber...

https://www.inforum.com/opinion/columns ... to-move-up
Oregon St & Washington St arent a terrible mismatch for Idaho & MSU academically & in terms of market size. They are a lot bigger than the DSUs & 2 time zones away. UMs declining enrollment & financial issues would make it a weird fit, but at least its a great geographic fit. Weber is too small & a terrible fit for any of these schools in conference.

If the MWC were to disintegrate I could imagine a NW conference with WSU, OSU, UM, MSU, BSU, Idaho, Utah St, Colorado State & Nevada, maybe Wyoming

That would be great for athletic competitiveness, all reasonably good academic & historical fits, close in size.

The DSUs are a hard pass for travel reasons alone. Let them join up with a conference thats a good geographical fit like the MAC.
I believe the MWC has much better administrators at the conference level and in the institutions than the stuffed shirts with the massive egos in the pac. Again, the Big Sky, pac, WCC, and WAC are the same cookie cutter trained administrators. Interchangeable parts who are by and large reactionary in nature versus proactive. They'll wait to see what somebody else does before making a move. I just hate to see MSU aligned with the far west.

Edit: MSU is presently in a conference with Cal Poly, U.C. Davis, Sacramento and NAU and you mention a geographical fit? Reminds me of many folks who dislike northeast Montana as "There's nothing there!" I ask them how far is Regina from Glasgow? Oh well. As I said, nothings going to happen anyway. Just be a victim of circumstances beyond your control.



onceacat
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Posts: 3615
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:35 pm

Re: Moving up

Post by onceacat » Sun May 28, 2023 10:35 am

Cat Grad wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 10:11 am
onceacat wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 9:46 am
Cat Grad wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 6:31 am
Best to form a new conference. The four Dakotas, a couple from Idaho, both Montana schools, cast off pac or MWC schools, NMSU, Weber...

https://www.inforum.com/opinion/columns ... to-move-up
Oregon St & Washington St arent a terrible mismatch for Idaho & MSU academically & in terms of market size. They are a lot bigger than the DSUs & 2 time zones away. UMs declining enrollment & financial issues would make it a weird fit, but at least its a great geographic fit. Weber is too small & a terrible fit for any of these schools in conference.

If the MWC were to disintegrate I could imagine a NW conference with WSU, OSU, UM, MSU, BSU, Idaho, Utah St, Colorado State & Nevada, maybe Wyoming

That would be great for athletic competitiveness, all reasonably good academic & historical fits, close in size.

The DSUs are a hard pass for travel reasons alone. Let them join up with a conference thats a good geographical fit like the MAC.
I believe the MWC has much better administrators at the conference level and in the institutions than the stuffed shirts with the massive egos in the pac. Again, the Big Sky, pac, WCC, and WAC are the same cookie cutter trained administrators. Interchangeable parts who are by and large reactionary in nature versus proactive. They'll wait to see what somebody else does before making a move. I just hate to see MSU aligned with the far west.

Edit: MSU is presently in a conference with Cal Poly, U.C. Davis, Sacramento and NAU and you mention a geographical fit? Reminds me of many folks who dislike northeast Montana as "There's nothing there!" I ask them how far is Regina from Glasgow? Oh well. As I said, nothings going to happen anyway. Just be a victim of circumstances beyond your control.
I think the current alignment sucks for a variety of reasons, first and foremost that there should NEVER be more than 10 teams (preferably 8) in a football conference. You'll notice that I didn't include those teams in a hypothetical dream G5 conference. There are enough of them to have an 8 team Southern Rockies/Cali conference.

The issue with the DSUs isnt MSU's distance...its the Idaho/Washington/Nevada schools & the 3 time zone difference.

Culturally, academically, geographically MSU is a far better fit for the other Rocky Mountain & West Coast schools. Theres zero connection with the Dakota schools, who fit a lot better with the Midwest.

Its also better for the students. The trip to Fargo/Brookings really sucks.

You are correct about the PAC administration. How you destroy a brand like that is pretty much beyond comprehension.

But the whole system needs to go to 8-10 team regional conferences with all conference champs & a few at large teams in a playoff. Call it 80 teams in the Power 8-10, another 80 or so in the Group of 8-10, then an FCS where the power schools have been bumped up so theres a lot more football parity at all 3 levels.



Cat Grad
Golden Bobcat
Posts: 7463
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 11:05 am

Re: Moving up

Post by Cat Grad » Sun May 28, 2023 10:57 am

onceacat wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 10:35 am
Cat Grad wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 10:11 am
onceacat wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 9:46 am
Cat Grad wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 6:31 am
Best to form a new conference. The four Dakotas, a couple from Idaho, both Montana schools, cast off pac or MWC schools, NMSU, Weber...

https://www.inforum.com/opinion/columns ... to-move-up
Oregon St & Washington St arent a terrible mismatch for Idaho & MSU academically & in terms of market size. They are a lot bigger than the DSUs & 2 time zones away. UMs declining enrollment & financial issues would make it a weird fit, but at least its a great geographic fit. Weber is too small & a terrible fit for any of these schools in conference.

If the MWC were to disintegrate I could imagine a NW conference with WSU, OSU, UM, MSU, BSU, Idaho, Utah St, Colorado State & Nevada, maybe Wyoming

That would be great for athletic competitiveness, all reasonably good academic & historical fits, close in size.

The DSUs are a hard pass for travel reasons alone. Let them join up with a conference thats a good geographical fit like the MAC.
I believe the MWC has much better administrators at the conference level and in the institutions than the stuffed shirts with the massive egos in the pac. Again, the Big Sky, pac, WCC, and WAC are the same cookie cutter trained administrators. Interchangeable parts who are by and large reactionary in nature versus proactive. They'll wait to see what somebody else does before making a move. I just hate to see MSU aligned with the far west.

Edit: MSU is presently in a conference with Cal Poly, U.C. Davis, Sacramento and NAU and you mention a geographical fit? Reminds me of many folks who dislike northeast Montana as "There's nothing there!" I ask them how far is Regina from Glasgow? Oh well. As I said, nothings going to happen anyway. Just be a victim of circumstances beyond your control.
I think the current alignment sucks for a variety of reasons, first and foremost that there should NEVER be more than 10 teams (preferably 8) in a football conference. You'll notice that I didn't include those teams in a hypothetical dream G5 conference. There are enough of them to have an 8 team Southern Rockies/Cali conference.

The issue with the DSUs isnt MSU's distance...its the Idaho/Washington/Nevada schools & the 3 time zone difference.

Culturally, academically, geographically MSU is a far better fit for the other Rocky Mountain & West Coast schools. Theres zero connection with the Dakota schools, who fit a lot better with the Midwest.

Its also better for the students. The trip to Fargo/Brookings really sucks.

You are correct about the PAC administration. How you destroy a brand like that is pretty much beyond comprehension.

But the whole system needs to go to 8-10 team regional conferences with all conference champs & a few at large teams in a playoff. Call it 80 teams in the Power 8-10, another 80 or so in the Group of 8-10, then an FCS where the power schools have been bumped up so theres a lot more football parity at all 3 levels.
Just have to agree to disagree I suppose. I personally, again--personally, despise the west coast trips. Sanfranzoola and the Flathead are on the wrong side of the divide as far as I'm concerned and would love to give that area to Idaho...thought I'd died and gone to hell when ROTC sent me to Fort Lewis. I enjoy all the farm and ranch land in the Dakotas, the lakes of Minnesota, eastern Colorado and Kansas. In fact, what does an MSU graduate have in common with a UM graduate? Nothing.

Edit: I also enjoy driving through all those flyover states where the streets are just like Roundup, Montana. Every light post and porch has a U.S. flag flying from it. Means a great deal to me this weekend.



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RickRund
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Re: Moving up

Post by RickRund » Sun May 28, 2023 12:47 pm

Cat Grad wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 10:57 am
onceacat wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 10:35 am
Cat Grad wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 10:11 am
onceacat wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 9:46 am
Cat Grad wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 6:31 am
Best to form a new conference. The four Dakotas, a couple from Idaho, both Montana schools, cast off pac or MWC schools, NMSU, Weber...

https://www.inforum.com/opinion/columns ... to-move-up
Oregon St & Washington St arent a terrible mismatch for Idaho & MSU academically & in terms of market size. They are a lot bigger than the DSUs & 2 time zones away. UMs declining enrollment & financial issues would make it a weird fit, but at least its a great geographic fit. Weber is too small & a terrible fit for any of these schools in conference.

If the MWC were to disintegrate I could imagine a NW conference with WSU, OSU, UM, MSU, BSU, Idaho, Utah St, Colorado State & Nevada, maybe Wyoming

That would be great for athletic competitiveness, all reasonably good academic & historical fits, close in size.

The DSUs are a hard pass for travel reasons alone. Let them join up with a conference thats a good geographical fit like the MAC.
I believe the MWC has much better administrators at the conference level and in the institutions than the stuffed shirts with the massive egos in the pac. Again, the Big Sky, pac, WCC, and WAC are the same cookie cutter trained administrators. Interchangeable parts who are by and large reactionary in nature versus proactive. They'll wait to see what somebody else does before making a move. I just hate to see MSU aligned with the far west.

Edit: MSU is presently in a conference with Cal Poly, U.C. Davis, Sacramento and NAU and you mention a geographical fit? Reminds me of many folks who dislike northeast Montana as "There's nothing there!" I ask them how far is Regina from Glasgow? Oh well. As I said, nothings going to happen anyway. Just be a victim of circumstances beyond your control.
I think the current alignment sucks for a variety of reasons, first and foremost that there should NEVER be more than 10 teams (preferably 8) in a football conference. You'll notice that I didn't include those teams in a hypothetical dream G5 conference. There are enough of them to have an 8 team Southern Rockies/Cali conference.

The issue with the DSUs isnt MSU's distance...its the Idaho/Washington/Nevada schools & the 3 time zone difference.

Culturally, academically, geographically MSU is a far better fit for the other Rocky Mountain & West Coast schools. Theres zero connection with the Dakota schools, who fit a lot better with the Midwest.

Its also better for the students. The trip to Fargo/Brookings really sucks.

You are correct about the PAC administration. How you destroy a brand like that is pretty much beyond comprehension.

But the whole system needs to go to 8-10 team regional conferences with all conference champs & a few at large teams in a playoff. Call it 80 teams in the Power 8-10, another 80 or so in the Group of 8-10, then an FCS where the power schools have been bumped up so theres a lot more football parity at all 3 levels.
Just have to agree to disagree I suppose. I personally, again--personally, despise the west coast trips. Sanfranzoola and the Flathead are on the wrong side of the divide as far as I'm concerned and would love to give that area to Idaho...thought I'd died and gone to hell when ROTC sent me to Fort Lewis. I enjoy all the farm and ranch land in the Dakotas, the lakes of Minnesota, eastern Colorado and Kansas. In fact, what does an MSU graduate have in common with a UM graduate? Nothing.

Edit: I also enjoy driving through all those flyover states where the streets are just like Roundup, Montana. Every light post and porch has a U.S. flag flying from it. Means a great deal to me this weekend.
No, no, no to sending sanfranzoola to Idaho. I left cali for a reason. Cannot speak for Flathead...


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Utcatsfan
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Re: Moving up

Post by Utcatsfan » Sun May 28, 2023 1:15 pm

Cat Grad wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 6:31 am
Best to form a new conference. The four Dakotas, a couple from Idaho, both Montana schools, cast off pac or MWC schools, NMSU, Weber...

https://www.inforum.com/opinion/columns ... to-move-up
Issue with Weber State is that the State of Utah already has 3 FBS schools and 3 D1/FCS schools, could be an issue of them being blocked from moving up as there already is some decent competition for recruits. Utah and BYU fight over the top picks while USU gets what's left.



onceacat
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Posts: 3615
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Re: Moving up

Post by onceacat » Sun May 28, 2023 2:55 pm

Utcatsfan wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 1:15 pm
Cat Grad wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 6:31 am
Best to form a new conference. The four Dakotas, a couple from Idaho, both Montana schools, cast off pac or MWC schools, NMSU, Weber...

https://www.inforum.com/opinion/columns ... to-move-up
Issue with Weber State is that the State of Utah already has 3 FBS schools and 3 D1/FCS schools, could be an issue of them being blocked from moving up as there already is some decent competition for recruits. Utah and BYU fight over the top picks while USU gets what's left.
Utah doesnt really recruit heavily in state. BYU does, but they are somewhat limited by religious norms & expectations.

Utah also has 2 other FCS programs at Dixie State & Southern Utah, which puts Webers recruiting in sort of a weird middle ground. Its also a lot more of a commuter school than any of the others which is a big part of why the game day experience in Ogden is so disappointing...all of which is to say that despite the good product Weber puts on the field, its really hard to imagine Weber playing at a G5 level.



rivercat
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Re: Moving up

Post by rivercat » Sun May 28, 2023 4:02 pm

Cat Grad wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 10:11 am
onceacat wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 9:46 am
Cat Grad wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 6:31 am
Best to form a new conference. The four Dakotas, a couple from Idaho, both Montana schools, cast off pac or MWC schools, NMSU, Weber...

https://www.inforum.com/opinion/columns ... to-move-up
Oregon St & Washington St arent a terrible mismatch for Idaho & MSU academically & in terms of market size. They are a lot bigger than the DSUs & 2 time zones away. UMs declining enrollment & financial issues would make it a weird fit, but at least its a great geographic fit. Weber is too small & a terrible fit for any of these schools in conference.

If the MWC were to disintegrate I could imagine a NW conference with WSU, OSU, UM, MSU, BSU, Idaho, Utah St, Colorado State & Nevada, maybe Wyoming

That would be great for athletic competitiveness, all reasonably good academic & historical fits, close in size.

The DSUs are a hard pass for travel reasons alone. Let them join up with a conference thats a good geographical fit like the MAC.
I believe the MWC has much better administrators at the conference level and in the institutions than the stuffed shirts with the massive egos in the pac. Again, the Big Sky, pac, WCC, and WAC are the same cookie cutter trained administrators. Interchangeable parts who are by and large reactionary in nature versus proactive. They'll wait to see what somebody else does before making a move. I just hate to see MSU aligned with the far west.

Edit: MSU is presently in a conference with Cal Poly, U.C. Davis, Sacramento and NAU and you mention a geographical fit? Reminds me of many folks who dislike northeast Montana as "There's nothing there!" I ask them how far is Regina from Glasgow? Oh well. As I said, nothings going to happen anyway. Just be a victim of circumstances beyond your control.
Weber State is not small. Enrollment is 30,000 but they are not a research institution.


"...get in 21 personnel and pound people and take their souls and have fun doing that..." coach Choate

Cat Grad
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Posts: 7463
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 11:05 am

Re: Moving up

Post by Cat Grad » Sun May 28, 2023 4:57 pm

rivercat wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 4:02 pm
Cat Grad wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 10:11 am
onceacat wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 9:46 am
Cat Grad wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 6:31 am
Best to form a new conference. The four Dakotas, a couple from Idaho, both Montana schools, cast off pac or MWC schools, NMSU, Weber...

https://www.inforum.com/opinion/columns ... to-move-up
Oregon St & Washington St arent a terrible mismatch for Idaho & MSU academically & in terms of market size. They are a lot bigger than the DSUs & 2 time zones away. UMs declining enrollment & financial issues would make it a weird fit, but at least its a great geographic fit. Weber is too small & a terrible fit for any of these schools in conference.

If the MWC were to disintegrate I could imagine a NW conference with WSU, OSU, UM, MSU, BSU, Idaho, Utah St, Colorado State & Nevada, maybe Wyoming

That would be great for athletic competitiveness, all reasonably good academic & historical fits, close in size.

The DSUs are a hard pass for travel reasons alone. Let them join up with a conference thats a good geographical fit like the MAC.
I believe the MWC has much better administrators at the conference level and in the institutions than the stuffed shirts with the massive egos in the pac. Again, the Big Sky, pac, WCC, and WAC are the same cookie cutter trained administrators. Interchangeable parts who are by and large reactionary in nature versus proactive. They'll wait to see what somebody else does before making a move. I just hate to see MSU aligned with the far west.

Edit: MSU is presently in a conference with Cal Poly, U.C. Davis, Sacramento and NAU and you mention a geographical fit? Reminds me of many folks who dislike northeast Montana as "There's nothing there!" I ask them how far is Regina from Glasgow? Oh well. As I said, nothings going to happen anyway. Just be a victim of circumstances beyond your control.
Weber State is not small. Enrollment is 30,000 but they are not a research institution.
Very easy to take the sum total. Can you break it down like this? (As an aside, what would MSU's enrollment potential be were they to offer online graduate degrees to this extent?).

https://news.gatech.edu/news/2020/11/05 ... e-pandemic

One can easily see the benefits of Weber's offerings though. UM employed the director of Purdue's Online program for a very short period of time.



onceacat
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Posts: 3615
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:35 pm

Re: Moving up

Post by onceacat » Sun May 28, 2023 10:41 pm

rivercat wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 4:02 pm
Cat Grad wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 10:11 am
onceacat wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 9:46 am
Cat Grad wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 6:31 am
Best to form a new conference. The four Dakotas, a couple from Idaho, both Montana schools, cast off pac or MWC schools, NMSU, Weber...

https://www.inforum.com/opinion/columns ... to-move-up
Oregon St & Washington St arent a terrible mismatch for Idaho & MSU academically & in terms of market size. They are a lot bigger than the DSUs & 2 time zones away. UMs declining enrollment & financial issues would make it a weird fit, but at least its a great geographic fit. Weber is too small & a terrible fit for any of these schools in conference.

If the MWC were to disintegrate I could imagine a NW conference with WSU, OSU, UM, MSU, BSU, Idaho, Utah St, Colorado State & Nevada, maybe Wyoming

That would be great for athletic competitiveness, all reasonably good academic & historical fits, close in size.

The DSUs are a hard pass for travel reasons alone. Let them join up with a conference thats a good geographical fit like the MAC.
I believe the MWC has much better administrators at the conference level and in the institutions than the stuffed shirts with the massive egos in the pac. Again, the Big Sky, pac, WCC, and WAC are the same cookie cutter trained administrators. Interchangeable parts who are by and large reactionary in nature versus proactive. They'll wait to see what somebody else does before making a move. I just hate to see MSU aligned with the far west.

Edit: MSU is presently in a conference with Cal Poly, U.C. Davis, Sacramento and NAU and you mention a geographical fit? Reminds me of many folks who dislike northeast Montana as "There's nothing there!" I ask them how far is Regina from Glasgow? Oh well. As I said, nothings going to happen anyway. Just be a victim of circumstances beyond your control.
Weber State is not small. Enrollment is 30,000 but they are not a research institution.
Half of those students are part time, non-matriculated.

Actual full time enrollment is closer to 15-16k. Which, while officially is similar in size to MSU, the absence of graduate programs, the relatively low number of on-campus students, the huge number of older (25+) and younger (18-) students, makes it totally different than the other institutions here. Its like an urban version of EWU.

As someone noted, even during the last 5 years with a really good product, they put fewer fans in the stands than the Hawks & Raptors. Other than the quality of the football product, they honestly dont really fit with most of the Big Sky, let alone being in a position to move up.



Cat Grad
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Re: Moving up

Post by Cat Grad » Mon May 29, 2023 7:00 am

Man, I wonder at times if those who post have ever set foot on those schools they disparage.

https://static.weberstatesports.com/cus ... index.html

https://nauathletics.com/sports/2017/5/ ... ties-index

With the administration in both WAZZU and OSU, to say MSU would be a fit? They got caught up in the pac arms race and it's time to start paying the piper, just as the state of Montana is going to have to keep picking up the tab for that declining school of non-academic excellence 202 miles to the west on I-90. Time for the BOR to take a hard look at facts and allow MSU to go it's own way.



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PapaG
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Re: Moving up

Post by PapaG » Tue May 30, 2023 6:02 am

Bobcat4Ever wrote:
Wed May 17, 2023 11:40 am
Prodigal Cat wrote:
Mon May 15, 2023 8:00 am
utucats wrote:
Sat May 13, 2023 8:10 am
Prodigal Cat wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 7:50 am
utucats wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 6:59 am
Colter_Nuanez wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 11:23 pm
utucats wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 10:46 pm
Colter_Nuanez wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 3:53 pm
GoCats18 wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 12:50 pm
We can’t even win a National Championship at this level. Why would people want to watch us play for a the chance at a bowl game? This would be a huge mistake. The fan base would drop to below 10,000 fans per game. It would destroy our program. Just look at Idaho. There is a reason they came back to the Big Sky.
Totally disagree. Bobcat Stadium is packed on Saturdays because it's the place to be. It's a premier and one of a kind event that people don't want to miss. It's the same thing in Missoula. Like an old athletic director used to always say: "It's not about winning. It's about the hope of winning. If you win consistently for awhile, then people will have the hope of winning forever."

Montana State would have to be absolutely terrible for 10+ years in a row AND have a style that was unappealing to watch AND have a terrible coach for people to completely stop coming to games. And that wouldn't happen. If MSU was FBS, they could out-recruit at least half the league simply based on Bozeman being a way more desirable destination than Laramie or Reno or San Jose or wherever.
Sorry Colter but I could not disagree with you more. Back when Kramer was coaching and Lulay came in we started to see the winning increasing and since then the game day experience has steadily grown. During that time and especially the years leading up to it, there were only a few thousand people attending non Cat griz games. One season we bought end zone season tickets because Cat griz was in Missoula so every game all one needed to do was get in and seating was pretty much whatever you wanted. We were drinking then so your statement that the booze is bringing Montanans is not correct.

Winning is important. Competing at a high level is important. I like Montana the way it has been. We are a rural state and our colleges are smaller schools. I hope we stay FCS forever. I have no desire to try and pretend to be a bigger deal than we are.

You are right that we have an amazing game day experience. If it ain’t broke don’t try to fix it.
This is what I’ve been trying to say on my show tho…it IS broken. Montana State generates the second most football revenue of any program in the Big Sky and one of the top 5 in the country. Yet when the final numbers come down for athletic department budget, the Cats make next to nothing.

Meanwhile, UC Davis has about 8,000 total people who care about football yet are about to build a new stadium. NAU just built a $44 million facility almost exclusively with state and student money, no real fundraising. All the fans in the Big Sky outside of Montana would have a hard time filling the two Montana stadiums. Yet the playing field is equal because the business model is broken.

The Cats and the Griz have the least amount of money to reinvest because each gets less than 50 percent of its athletic budget subsidized. This issue is compounded by the fact that at least half the league receives 70 percent subsidization and a few schools get more than 80 percent.

That’s not an equal playing field. That’s legislating to the lowest common denominator.

You want to know why most of you think Big Sky officiating sucks? Because it does. You want to know why you think the league’s administration is bush league?? Because it is.

You are who you hang out with. Northern Colorado’s
Locker room is like a mile from its D2 stadium. More people go to Bozeman Gallatin football games than NAU games. Portland State plays at a high school field, and it’s not even the nicest high school field in the area. Given the state of affairs in college sports, Idaho State might never field a winner ever again. Weber State just had its greatest coach in school history, tripled its number of all time playoff appearances and went on its first few playoff runs….how much did attendance increase? Not one bit. Still drawing a crowd that would turn out in Butte to watch the Bulldogs against Bozeman…

When you talk about the olden days, I get where you’re coming from. But that ain’t it anymore. Montana State is big league athletics and the football experience is one of the best in the West. From the rodeo team entrance to the spirit of the West to the engagement of the fans to the tailgates to the radio broadcasts to the media coverage to the scenery, I can’t really think of a scenario short of a full on catastrophic event that would deter people from coming to Bobcat Stadium in droves. You’d get at the very least three home teams better than you could ever get now from in the conference. And then you can get real home and homes, not just McNeese State or Bryant.

Let’s say MSU had a league to land in and BOR approval. And Cruzado is still president, Leon still AD and Vigen still head coach. And they get 22 more scholarships. That team is really competitive in the Mountain West right away. You’d add a $4-8 million revenue stream from TV. Waded would fully jolt
Fundraising and raise eight figures. You’d get more state money.

This is all a business. Doesn’t matter if you don’t like the thought it’s all about money. It’s all about money! Danny Sprinkle and the Big Sky All stars are all in Logan because of money. RaeQuan Battle is at West Virginia because of money.

And think of the publicity if MSU made a move. Nevada Reno and Wyoming coming on Bobcat Stadium for the first time in years….or better yet the second or third time after already being there….those coaches gushing in fear over Bobcat Stadium…I’ve been to most the stadiums in the Mountain West. The Montana schools are more raucous and wild for sure.

The Cats and the Griz just can’t get caught with their pants down playing in a division where the rivalry game is the conference AND national championship game. To me,
That makes it a fully diluted product. And this is coming from someone who has dedicated more than half my life to covering the Big Sky Conference…
I don’t agree that this is all a business. It is more than that and there are other considerations other than just solely making money. Even if we look at it from purely a business perspective, it is surprising that your take is that us funding all these programs and paying for this great game day experience with all the trimmings (rodeo team entrance, Spirit of the West) while continually improving facilities (paved parking/tailgating, BAC, new video board, South end zone, new field, rebranding, etc.) and doing that with less subsidies and somehow you find that system broken? Or your point is that since the other schools can’t do the same that we have an unfair advantage? Or maybe if we got 70% subsidized that would make it fair for us? Call me crazy but not needing assistance always seemed to me to be a marker of success. You’ll have to clear that up for me because I’m not understanding that point.

I also think you are way overhyping the impact of Wyoming showing up at Bobcat Stadium. The publicity? Is ESPN gonna come running and wanting it on prime time? No. In the whole college football market we have a very small footprint and that doesn’t change at all with a move up.

I look at schools like Wyoming with pity for having nothing real to play for. They are never going to win a championship. You talk about an unfair system, does us moving to a system where we have to accept never finishing #1 a fair system? I don’t think so.

We have a great rivalry, great venues, amazing fan support and we are the Big Sky conference. FCS football is truly becoming more and more about Montana State and the Dakotas. I love that fact. We built all of this in a broken model/system.

I appreciate your opinion but I think it is naive. This is an argument about priorities. Your take is simply that money matters more than winning. I disagree.
Wrong. They seek after a Mountain West Championship and I honestly might value that down the road as well, more than an FCS title with the current trend in this division. You take out us and the DSU's are you really proud of that? That you knocked off Incarnate Word, Bill and Mary, northsouthwest state u on the way to a title? NDSU and SDSU aren't long for the FCS and once they are gone are we really happy being the highschooler beating up on the third graders during recess? We shouldn't be the last one to leave the party.
Those FCS titles come so easy that we haven’t won one in nearly 40 years.
Reading comprehension is not your bag eh? I said I might down the road when SDSU and NDSU are gone. If you remove those 2 teams you could reasonably argue that MSU would have won a couple of titles in the last 4 years and might even be defending 2 time champs currently.
In the last four years in the playoffs, MSU has only lost to two teams — the DSUs. Those three are kind of the Big Deal group right now.

MSU might not have won for nearly 40 years, but it’s a constant goal that’s there every year. Make the playoffs. Win in the playoffs. Win the playoffs. That aspiration is pretty meaningful to FCS football and MSU in particular — a lot of good players are at MSU because of those goals, and some could be off chasing the Hoover Vacuum Bags Bowl at a G5. But they aren’t. A national championship is a bigger incentive. Maybe check with Sean Chambers? Not sure what he would say but it would be an interesting conversation.
I still can’t comprehend how anyone thinks the MWC would want MSU and UM and also that’s a great point about the players competing for titles instead of the Potato Bowl.


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PapaG
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Re: Moving up

Post by PapaG » Tue May 30, 2023 6:04 am

Cat Grad wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 7:00 am
Man, I wonder at times if those who post have ever set foot on those schools they disparage.

https://static.weberstatesports.com/cus ... index.html

https://nauathletics.com/sports/2017/5/ ... ties-index

With the administration in both WAZZU and OSU, to say MSU would be a fit? They got caught up in the pac arms race and it's time to start paying the piper, just as the state of Montana is going to have to keep picking up the tab for that declining school of non-academic excellence 202 miles to the west on I-90. Time for the BOR to take a hard look at facts and allow MSU to go it's own way.
It really is amazing how far UM has fallen in enrollment and academics. Seemed impossible 10 years ago but they’re basically a glorified community college and Montana Tech has even surpassed them in prestige.


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PapaG
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Re: Moving up

Post by PapaG » Tue May 30, 2023 6:08 am

RickRund wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 12:47 pm
Cat Grad wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 10:57 am
onceacat wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 10:35 am
Cat Grad wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 10:11 am
onceacat wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 9:46 am
Cat Grad wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 6:31 am
Best to form a new conference. The four Dakotas, a couple from Idaho, both Montana schools, cast off pac or MWC schools, NMSU, Weber...

https://www.inforum.com/opinion/columns ... to-move-up
Oregon St & Washington St arent a terrible mismatch for Idaho & MSU academically & in terms of market size. They are a lot bigger than the DSUs & 2 time zones away. UMs declining enrollment & financial issues would make it a weird fit, but at least its a great geographic fit. Weber is too small & a terrible fit for any of these schools in conference.

If the MWC were to disintegrate I could imagine a NW conference with WSU, OSU, UM, MSU, BSU, Idaho, Utah St, Colorado State & Nevada, maybe Wyoming

That would be great for athletic competitiveness, all reasonably good academic & historical fits, close in size.

The DSUs are a hard pass for travel reasons alone. Let them join up with a conference thats a good geographical fit like the MAC.
I believe the MWC has much better administrators at the conference level and in the institutions than the stuffed shirts with the massive egos in the pac. Again, the Big Sky, pac, WCC, and WAC are the same cookie cutter trained administrators. Interchangeable parts who are by and large reactionary in nature versus proactive. They'll wait to see what somebody else does before making a move. I just hate to see MSU aligned with the far west.

Edit: MSU is presently in a conference with Cal Poly, U.C. Davis, Sacramento and NAU and you mention a geographical fit? Reminds me of many folks who dislike northeast Montana as "There's nothing there!" I ask them how far is Regina from Glasgow? Oh well. As I said, nothings going to happen anyway. Just be a victim of circumstances beyond your control.
I think the current alignment sucks for a variety of reasons, first and foremost that there should NEVER be more than 10 teams (preferably 8) in a football conference. You'll notice that I didn't include those teams in a hypothetical dream G5 conference. There are enough of them to have an 8 team Southern Rockies/Cali conference.

The issue with the DSUs isnt MSU's distance...its the Idaho/Washington/Nevada schools & the 3 time zone difference.

Culturally, academically, geographically MSU is a far better fit for the other Rocky Mountain & West Coast schools. Theres zero connection with the Dakota schools, who fit a lot better with the Midwest.

Its also better for the students. The trip to Fargo/Brookings really sucks.

You are correct about the PAC administration. How you destroy a brand like that is pretty much beyond comprehension.

But the whole system needs to go to 8-10 team regional conferences with all conference champs & a few at large teams in a playoff. Call it 80 teams in the Power 8-10, another 80 or so in the Group of 8-10, then an FCS where the power schools have been bumped up so theres a lot more football parity at all 3 levels.
Just have to agree to disagree I suppose. I personally, again--personally, despise the west coast trips. Sanfranzoola and the Flathead are on the wrong side of the divide as far as I'm concerned and would love to give that area to Idaho...thought I'd died and gone to hell when ROTC sent me to Fort Lewis. I enjoy all the farm and ranch land in the Dakotas, the lakes of Minnesota, eastern Colorado and Kansas. In fact, what does an MSU graduate have in common with a UM graduate? Nothing.

Edit: I also enjoy driving through all those flyover states where the streets are just like Roundup, Montana. Every light post and porch has a U.S. flag flying from it. Means a great deal to me this weekend.
No, no, no to sending sanfranzoola to Idaho. I left cali for a reason. Cannot speak for Flathead...
Same reason I left Portland last year. It’s an absolute sh*thole these days and people are literally squatting in tents downtown and on the SE side. Yet they keep voting for it.


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RickRund
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Re: Moving up

Post by RickRund » Tue May 30, 2023 9:23 am

PapaG wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 6:08 am
RickRund wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 12:47 pm
Cat Grad wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 10:57 am
onceacat wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 10:35 am
Cat Grad wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 10:11 am
onceacat wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 9:46 am
Cat Grad wrote:
Sun May 28, 2023 6:31 am
Best to form a new conference. The four Dakotas, a couple from Idaho, both Montana schools, cast off pac or MWC schools, NMSU, Weber...

https://www.inforum.com/opinion/columns ... to-move-up
Oregon St & Washington St arent a terrible mismatch for Idaho & MSU academically & in terms of market size. They are a lot bigger than the DSUs & 2 time zones away. UMs declining enrollment & financial issues would make it a weird fit, but at least its a great geographic fit. Weber is too small & a terrible fit for any of these schools in conference.

If the MWC were to disintegrate I could imagine a NW conference with WSU, OSU, UM, MSU, BSU, Idaho, Utah St, Colorado State & Nevada, maybe Wyoming

That would be great for athletic competitiveness, all reasonably good academic & historical fits, close in size.

The DSUs are a hard pass for travel reasons alone. Let them join up with a conference thats a good geographical fit like the MAC.
I believe the MWC has much better administrators at the conference level and in the institutions than the stuffed shirts with the massive egos in the pac. Again, the Big Sky, pac, WCC, and WAC are the same cookie cutter trained administrators. Interchangeable parts who are by and large reactionary in nature versus proactive. They'll wait to see what somebody else does before making a move. I just hate to see MSU aligned with the far west.

Edit: MSU is presently in a conference with Cal Poly, U.C. Davis, Sacramento and NAU and you mention a geographical fit? Reminds me of many folks who dislike northeast Montana as "There's nothing there!" I ask them how far is Regina from Glasgow? Oh well. As I said, nothings going to happen anyway. Just be a victim of circumstances beyond your control.
I think the current alignment sucks for a variety of reasons, first and foremost that there should NEVER be more than 10 teams (preferably 8) in a football conference. You'll notice that I didn't include those teams in a hypothetical dream G5 conference. There are enough of them to have an 8 team Southern Rockies/Cali conference.

The issue with the DSUs isnt MSU's distance...its the Idaho/Washington/Nevada schools & the 3 time zone difference.

Culturally, academically, geographically MSU is a far better fit for the other Rocky Mountain & West Coast schools. Theres zero connection with the Dakota schools, who fit a lot better with the Midwest.

Its also better for the students. The trip to Fargo/Brookings really sucks.

You are correct about the PAC administration. How you destroy a brand like that is pretty much beyond comprehension.

But the whole system needs to go to 8-10 team regional conferences with all conference champs & a few at large teams in a playoff. Call it 80 teams in the Power 8-10, another 80 or so in the Group of 8-10, then an FCS where the power schools have been bumped up so theres a lot more football parity at all 3 levels.
Just have to agree to disagree I suppose. I personally, again--personally, despise the west coast trips. Sanfranzoola and the Flathead are on the wrong side of the divide as far as I'm concerned and would love to give that area to Idaho...thought I'd died and gone to hell when ROTC sent me to Fort Lewis. I enjoy all the farm and ranch land in the Dakotas, the lakes of Minnesota, eastern Colorado and Kansas. In fact, what does an MSU graduate have in common with a UM graduate? Nothing.

Edit: I also enjoy driving through all those flyover states where the streets are just like Roundup, Montana. Every light post and porch has a U.S. flag flying from it. Means a great deal to me this weekend.
No, no, no to sending sanfranzoola to Idaho. I left cali for a reason. Cannot speak for Flathead...
Same reason I left Portland last year. It’s an absolute sh*thole these days and people are literally squatting in tents downtown and on the SE side. Yet they keep voting for it.
Saw a comment on s f on one of my sites..... They called it San Fran$hitco...


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Re: Moving up

Post by Cat Grad » Tue May 30, 2023 10:24 am

PapaG wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 6:04 am
Cat Grad wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 7:00 am
Man, I wonder at times if those who post have ever set foot on those schools they disparage.

https://static.weberstatesports.com/cus ... index.html

https://nauathletics.com/sports/2017/5/ ... ties-index

With the administration in both WAZZU and OSU, to say MSU would be a fit? They got caught up in the pac arms race and it's time to start paying the piper, just as the state of Montana is going to have to keep picking up the tab for that declining school of non-academic excellence 202 miles to the west on I-90. Time for the BOR to take a hard look at facts and allow MSU to go it's own way.
It really is amazing how far UM has fallen in enrollment and academics. Seemed impossible 10 years ago but they’re basically a glorified community college and Montana Tech has even surpassed them in prestige.
And athletics. How bad did Tech beat them in basketball a couple years ago?



damnyoutuesday
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Re: Moving up

Post by damnyoutuesday » Tue May 30, 2023 3:10 pm

Cat Grad wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 7:00 am
Time for the BOR to take a hard look at facts and allow MSU to go it's own way.
Respectfully, absolutely not. I refuse to lose the Cat/Griz game, and moving to a different conference without them will all but kill it



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Re: Moving up

Post by coloradocat » Tue May 30, 2023 3:41 pm

Cat Grad wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 7:00 am
Time for the BOR to take a hard look at facts and allow MSU to go it's own way.
You could flip the name of the school and go back in time 20 years and this would be a direct quote from most griz fans.


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AFCAT
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Re: Moving up

Post by AFCAT » Tue May 30, 2023 3:42 pm

damnyoutuesday wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 3:10 pm
Cat Grad wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 7:00 am
Time for the BOR to take a hard look at facts and allow MSU to go it's own way.
Respectfully, absolutely not. I refuse to lose the Cat/Griz game, and moving to a different conference without them will all but kill it
Well, MSU and um have been in the same conference since 1963. The teams were either independent or in separate conferences before then.


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damnyoutuesday
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Re: Moving up

Post by damnyoutuesday » Tue May 30, 2023 4:23 pm

AFCAT wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 3:42 pm
damnyoutuesday wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 3:10 pm
Cat Grad wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 7:00 am
Time for the BOR to take a hard look at facts and allow MSU to go it's own way.
Respectfully, absolutely not. I refuse to lose the Cat/Griz game, and moving to a different conference without them will all but kill it
Well, MSU and um have been in the same conference since 1963. The teams were either independent or in separate conferences before then.
I'm referring to modern conference realignment that has killed many rivalries. Texas and A&M haven't played in a decade (obviously changing soon), Nebraska and Colorado have played once since they left the Big 12 a decade ago, the Backyard Brawl has been played once in a decade, Kansas-Mizzou hasn't been played in a decade, Nebraska-Oklahoma has been played twice since Nebraska left a decade ago, Bedlam is about to die, Maryland vs their ACC rivals are dead, etc.

If we move up and Montana doesn't, that rivalry is about as good as dead. We wouldn't schedule home-and-homes with an FCS team, Montana wouldn't want to come to Bozeman every year. Cat/Griz would sputter out in a similar fashion to Idaho-Wazzu, where it's an irregular rivalry held only at one campus every decade or so. Cat/Griz is too meaningful of a game to this state for it to die if we left and Montana didn't. I never want the Griz to win that game again, but I want to play that game every single season. Anybody that is in favor of the prospect of leaving UM behind is not a true fan of this team or our historic rivalry



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Re: Moving up

Post by Cat Grad » Tue May 30, 2023 4:57 pm

damnyoutuesday wrote:
Tue May 30, 2023 3:10 pm
Cat Grad wrote:
Mon May 29, 2023 7:00 am
Time for the BOR to take a hard look at facts and allow MSU to go it's own way.
Respectfully, absolutely not. I refuse to lose the Cat/Griz game, and moving to a different conference without them will all but kill it
Oh, FTG! I'd rather watch the Cats play any of the Dakota schools, Colorado State (Not Colorado because they are MSU's bitch), Wyoming, just about any Ewe-tahaaa, school than put up with that fan base, most of whom have nothing to do with that supposed school other than they work for them in some capacity or their parents were a "distinguished professor" of some bullsheet discipline. Let them continue playing the little sisters of the poor, the EWUs and Northern Colorados...all while living in places like Everette, Washington, or any other slum.

Edit: 56 percent of MSU's student body is nonresident. I myself retired away from Montana. Have you looked at your alumni propaganda the last few years? How many MSU graduates actually reside in Montana?



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