UM job growth potential out performs MSU

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Post by bozbobcat » Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:48 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:Let's just settle this once and for all. There is no such thing as a "better" Elementary Ed program. You can get a perfectly adequate El Ed degree from virtually any 4 year college in the country. The subject matter simply is not difficult, and the degree is largely a formality. When it comes to El Ed, you generally have it or you don't on a personal level. A degree from Harvard won't mold you into a great El Ed teacher, and getting a degree from Northern Montana College won't hinder you in the slightest from becoming a great elementary teacher.

Let's put this into perspective -- the job requirements are that you know more about the subject matter than a elementary school student (something most of us acquire by the time we reach 7th grade), and you are able to explain things in a way that they can understand. College doesn't prepare you for this -- being able to relate well to kids prepares you for this.

So all El Ed programs are great ... and all are bad, 100% dependent on the person in the program and the student teaching experience you receive.

And yes, lots of teachers in my family.

So if any school wants to brag about the superior merits of their El Ed program (including MSU), allow me to scoff in your general direction.
I think MSU is very proud of their education program in total, not just elementary education. This includes secondary education and post-graduate degrees in administration, too. I'm a history teaching major (secondary) and even though some of the classes can be complete :bs:, I've heard that MSU has one of the more rigorous teacher ed programs around. Students go through three in-school experiences before getting the diploma. Not to mention that elementary ed has more than its fair share of hotties. :lol:


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Post by SonomaCat » Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:00 am

Grizlaw wrote:
GOKATS wrote:MSU provides the necessary 4 year education requirement needed, in addition to passing a national exam, to apply for registration in the State of Montana (and most other states) as a licensed "Landscape Architect".

While there are undoubtedly a few dUMb grads able to obtain a hi-tech summer job such as installing sprinkler systems ( let's get beyond mowing, raking, trimming, etc.), "Landscape Architects" are professionals, make a damn good living, and are relied upon by those of in the land development design professions.

Now, back to your burger flippin' career goals. Don't restrict your goals to just Mickey D's- keep your options open and submit a resume to Booger K, Hardlies, etc.
I am glad to hear that MSU's landscape design grads can make a nice living. There is obviously some value in that. Here's a question, though: can they also read something written by, e.g., Al Franken or Ann Coulter, think critically about what they're reading, and intelligently explain the biases in what they're reading? Any humanities student could to do so, and yet, I suspect that many people who studied "better" (more lucrative) things in school cannot.

Which brings me back to the question I was trying to raise earlier: how does one measure the value of an education? The people on this board always seem to speak in terms of the job opportunities that a particular academic discipline will open up to a person, but does that really make any sense?

Let me use myself as an example: when I was an undergrad, I majored in accounting, and (because I was preparing for law school), I took a lot of philosophy and other humanities courses as electives. In my accounting classes, I learned how to read financial statements, how to conduct an audit, how to make financial book entries, etc. In other words, I learned a lot of useful job skills, at least if one is pursuing a career in accounting.

In my philosophy courses, I learned how to read and comprehend complicated material, how to write well, how to think critically, and how to analyze and construct a cogent argument.

Guess which set of skills has proven to be more useful in my current profession (and in my life)? I am a tax lawyer, so surely I do use my accounting knowledge to a degree. I could get by without it, though, and the same could not be said for the intangible skills that I learned in my "soft" liberal arts classes.

So I'll ask the question again (slightly differently this time): who is better educated, the philosopher, or the accountant? The accountant makes more money, but is that really the question?

--GL
Let me chime in.

You used the word liberal. Liberal is evil. Ergo, your argument is evil and everything you say, even if not understood by others, is wrong.

That being said, I do agree with the point you are making. I gained a lot more insight into the world from my humanities classes than I did from my accounting classes, but the accounting and other business-centric classes gave me the critical mass of knowledge in that field to get a job. In my mind, the two complement each other very well, and neither would be as valuable without the other.

That's why MSU's career-based programs, complemented by the humanities core requirements, provide the greatest complete education on the face of the earth!!!! (I had to work that in somehow)



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Post by GOKATS » Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:30 am

[/quote] That's why MSU's career-based programs, complemented by the humanities core requirements, provide the greatest complete education on the face of the earth!!!! (I had to work that in somehow)[/quote]

:goodpost:

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Post by Grizlaw » Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:12 am

Bay Area Cat wrote:That's why MSU's career-based programs, complemented by the humanities core requirements, provide the greatest complete education on the face of the earth!!!! (I had to work that in somehow)
Yeah, that is pretty much the point I'm making (minus the "MSU" part, of course. ;) )

I would probably go further, though, and say that the best education a person can get would be a solid undergraduate background in the humanities, with the assumption that the student will go to graduate or professional school to obtain job skills.

Here is a little-known statistic that surprises most people when they hear it. As most of you are probably aware, students seeking admission to U.S. medical schools have to take the Medical College Admissions Test (MCAT). Aside from an SAT-style verbal section, the material tested on the MCAT consists of biology, general chemistry, organic chemistry, and physics. Given the subject matter of the exam, one would assume that hard science majors would perform better on it than humanities majors, right? But alas:

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2005/mcatgpabymaj1.htm

The data in the table is not laid out very nicely, so I'll break it down for those who don't want to do the work of deciphering it. On average, Humanities majors out-perform Biological Science majors and "Specialized Health Science" majors on the MCAT, and perform nearly as well as Physical Science majors. The average humanities major who took the exam in 2005 got a composite score of 28.8, compared with a 27.3 for Biological Science majors and a 25.1 for Specialized Health Science majors. (Physical Science majors averaged a 29.1.) Social Sciences majors averaged a 27.5 -- still better than the Biology majors. All of this despite the fact that the content tested on the exam should give the science majors a huge advantage in terms of depth of knowledge of the subject matter. Also worth noting: if you just look at the scores for the Biological Sciences section of the exam, you'll notice that Humanities majors and Biology majors both averaged a 9.6.

Hmm....

(For the record, I could only find 2005 data, but I happen to know that these numbers are pretty consistent historically as well. I briefly considered med school when I was in college, and on days when I am disgruntled with my current career, I still sometimes think of going back, so I've been following this for quite a while now.)

--GL


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Post by BozoneCat » Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:58 pm

Perhaps those of you who know nothing about landscaping and/or MSU's landscape architecture degree should refrain from commenting on said things. You are making yourselves sound very ignorant, while those same "lawnmowers" are making twice as much money as you are within two years out of school.


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Post by UMclassof2002 » Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:02 pm

[quote="BozoneCat"]those same "lawnmowers" are making twice as much money as you are [quote]


LOL



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Post by catamaran » Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:05 pm

UMclassof2002 wrote:
BozoneCat wrote:those same "lawnmowers" are making twice as much money as you are


LOL
You have to compare them a little more closely...lawnmowing companies add to the GNP of UM grads more than litigators because a majority of UM grads are only qualified to do things like rake leaves, bag clippings, gas up the mowers. UM law grads aren't in need of too many people in these fields


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Post by BozoneCat » Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:11 pm

UMclassof2002 wrote:
BozoneCat wrote:those same "lawnmowers" are making twice as much money as you are

LOL
Yeah, they're laughing all the way to the bank.


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Post by Grizlaw » Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:15 pm

BozoneCat wrote:Perhaps those of you who know nothing about landscaping and/or MSU's landscape architecture degree should refrain from commenting on said things. You are making yourselves sound very ignorant, while those same "lawnmowers" are making twice as much money as you are within two years out of school.
Well, "lawnmowers" was the term I used (and I think I mentioned that I was joking about it), so I guess you're talking to me.

I think my point was pretty clear from the rest of my posts in the thread. I wasn't trying to belittle landscape architects; I was simply addressing the attacks that always seem to be made by members of this board toward UM as a "liberal arts school," and advocating the value of a liberal arts education. If you think that made me sound ignorant, then I'm sorry, but if you're going to toss around words like "ignorant," at least address my substantive point instead of latching on to one word and throwing a tantrum about it.

--GL

P.S. On an unrelated point, congratulations. I see you're in Boise now, so I assume you graduated...


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Post by BozoneCat » Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:24 pm

Grizlaw wrote:
BozoneCat wrote:Perhaps those of you who know nothing about landscaping and/or MSU's landscape architecture degree should refrain from commenting on said things. You are making yourselves sound very ignorant, while those same "lawnmowers" are making twice as much money as you are within two years out of school.
Well, "lawnmowers" was the term I used (and I think I mentioned that I was joking about it), so I guess you're talking to me.

I think my point was pretty clear from the rest of my posts in the thread. I wasn't trying to belittle landscape architects; I was simply addressing the attacks that always seem to be made by members of this board toward UM as a "liberal arts school," and advocating the value of a liberal arts education. If you think that made me sound ignorant, then I'm sorry, but if you're going to toss around words like "ignorant," at least address my substantive point instead of latching on to one word and throwing a tantrum about it.

--GL

P.S. On an unrelated point, congratulations. I see you're in Boise now, so I assume you graduated...
Sorry GL, the "ignorant" retort was directed at the fool(s) who just blindly tried to belittle landscapers - your posts obviously show that you have good intelligence and are not set out to trash anyone masquerading as a Bobcat fan regardless of the forum.

I am particularly sensitive to the landscape thing because my brother graduated from MSU with a degree in landscape design, owns his own business in Bozeman, and has grown his business into the fifth largest landscaping firm in the Gallatin Valley (out of like ~60) in two years. I also helped him getting his business going and have worked landscaping jobs for years to help put myself through college.

Thanks also for the congrats. Alas, I am not yet fully graduated, as I have to complete clinical rounds through this semester before I officially graduate. But, I am fully moved out of Missoula and I plan on continuing to practice here in Boise once I am done. I love it here. Sunny and warm here in town, and it is dumping snow up at Bogus Basin. Still close enough to be able to get back to Montana when I want to. I'm pretty bummed out that I'll have to miss my first Cat-griz basketball game in about 10 years this Saturday, though.


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Post by Grizlaw » Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:37 pm

BozoneCat wrote:Thanks also for the congrats. Alas, I am not yet fully graduated, as I have to complete clinical rounds through this semester before I officially graduate. But, I am fully moved out of Missoula and I plan on continuing to practice here in Boise once I am done. I love it here. Sunny and warm here in town, and it is dumping snow up at Bogus Basin. Still close enough to be able to get back to Montana when I want to. I'm pretty bummed out that I'll have to miss my first Cat-griz basketball game in about 10 years this Saturday, though.
Everyone seems to love Boise. I've never been there, but two of my closest friends from high school (both UM grads) live there, and they both seem to love it. I'm going to visit within the next year or so. Maybe we'll have to grab a beer when I do.

I'm sorry I snapped in my last post (I was going to delete it, but you responded too quickly). I'm a little on edge today -- my annual performance review at work is in about 25 minutes, and while I have no reason to think it will be bad, I am a little jittery.

EDIT: And just to throw in some obligatory smack, I wouldn't worry too much about missing Saturday's game. You picked a good year to move away. ;)

--GL


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Post by BozoneCat » Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:01 pm

Grizlaw wrote:Everyone seems to love Boise. I've never been there, but two of my closest friends from high school (both UM grads) live there, and they both seem to love it. I'm going to visit within the next year or so. Maybe we'll have to grab a beer when I do.

I'm sorry I snapped in my last post (I was going to delete it, but you responded too quickly). I'm a little on edge today -- my annual performance review at work is in about 25 minutes, and while I have no reason to think it will be bad, I am a little jittery.

EDIT: And just to throw in some obligatory smack, I wouldn't worry too much about missing Saturday's game. You picked a good year to move away. ;)

--GL
Boise is great. I have lived here before, and I never had any qualms about coming back. I hope to get back to Montana in a few years, but you just can't get the same opportunities anywhere in Montana, especially right out of school. If you do make it over here, let me know and I'll show you out on the town.

Performance reviews suck - period. I have to do these every few weeks during my clinicals, and even though I have no reason to expect anything bad, they always put me on edge too. Performance reviews are why beer was invented.

Good smack, but even as down as I have been on our basketball team this year, I have a good feeling we'll manage to pull out a win on Saturday. I think the griz are a little overrated due to a weak non-conference schedule, and the Cats are just starting to come on and play like they are capable.


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Post by briannell » Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:14 pm

Performance reviews suck - period. I have to do these every few weeks during my clinicals, and even though I have no reason to expect anything bad, they always put me on edge too. Performance reviews are why beer was invented.
well that's why you are the PT and I stayed in the training room. :D Glad to see you are enjoying the clinical phase. i did like being in a well run clinic, but for me so much nicer being in a JC training room, working a game, or teaching my fitness classes. I'm no queen bee, had a great boss, so wasn't too freaked about reviews. I also had it good being one of three females, perky and 23 while they were over 40. laughed at my last review had great performance eval and at the end joked that if I ever get pregnant again they'd assign me a private frig and bathroom for my use. guess I was good at grossing out my athletes. :wink:


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Post by BR GRIZ » Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:55 pm

Grizlaw wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote:That's why MSU's career-based programs, complemented by the humanities core requirements, provide the greatest complete education on the face of the earth!!!! (I had to work that in somehow)
Yeah, that is pretty much the point I'm making (minus the "MSU" part, of course. ;) )

I would probably go further, though, and say that the best education a person can get would be a solid undergraduate background in the humanities, with the assumption that the student will go to graduate or professional school to obtain job skills.

Here is a little-known statistic that surprises most people when they hear it. As most of you are probably aware, students seeking admission to U.S. medical schools have to take the Medical College Admissions Test (MCAT). Aside from an SAT-style verbal section, the material tested on the MCAT consists of biology, general chemistry, organic chemistry, and physics. Given the subject matter of the exam, one would assume that hard science majors would perform better on it than humanities majors, right? But alas:

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2005/mcatgpabymaj1.htm

The data in the table is not laid out very nicely, so I'll break it down for those who don't want to do the work of deciphering it. On average, Humanities majors out-perform Biological Science majors and "Specialized Health Science" majors on the MCAT, and perform nearly as well as Physical Science majors. The average humanities major who took the exam in 2005 got a composite score of 28.8, compared with a 27.3 for Biological Science majors and a 25.1 for Specialized Health Science majors. (Physical Science majors averaged a 29.1.) Social Sciences majors averaged a 27.5 -- still better than the Biology majors. All of this despite the fact that the content tested on the exam should give the science majors a huge advantage in terms of depth of knowledge of the subject matter. Also worth noting: if you just look at the scores for the Biological Sciences section of the exam, you'll notice that Humanities majors and Biology majors both averaged a 9.6.

Hmm....

(For the record, I could only find 2005 data, but I happen to know that these numbers are pretty consistent historically as well. I briefly considered med school when I was in college, and on days when I am disgruntled with my current career, I still sometimes think of going back, so I've been following this for quite a while now.)

--GL
I agree completely that the best education a person can get would have a solid undergraduate background in the humanities. I'm convinced that the humanities background is what teaches you how to think.

By the way Grizlaw, since you're in New York I assume you got your LLM from NYU. Great school but it's not Florida. Go Gators!



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Post by briannell » Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:03 pm

i know this is from slate,

The It-Sucks-To-Be-Me Generation (with a UM degree :D )
Twentysomethings who can't stop whining about how the economy is screwing them.
By Daniel Gross
Posted Monday, Jan. 9, 2006, at 5:12 PM ET


Download the MP3 audio version of this story here, or sign up for Slate's free daily podcast on iTunes.

Oh, it's so hard to be young these days! Just crack open Generation Debt: Why Now Is a Terrible Time To Be Young, by Anya Kamenetz, or Strapped: Why America's 20-and-30-Somethings Can't Get Ahead, by Tamara Draut, and you're plunged into a world of darkness and sorrow.

This is, with apologies to the Broadway musical Avenue Q, the "It Sucks To Be Me" Generation. To hear these authors tell it, college graduates (and twentysomethings who haven't gone to college) are in a world of hurt. The deck is stacked against them: student loans and credit-card debt, budget deficits and McJobs, high housing prices and generational warfare waged by more-numerous baby-boomers.

The economic jeremiad written by a twentysomething is a cyclical phenomenon. People who graduate into a recessionary/post-bubble economy inevitably find the going tough, which compounds the usual postgraduate angst. And with their limited life experience and high expectations, they tend to extrapolate a lifetime from a couple of years. I know. Back in the early 1990s, when my cohort and I were making our way into the workforce in a recessionary, post-bubble environment, I wrote an article on precisely the same topic for Swing, the lamentable, deservedly short-lived David Lauren twentysomething magazine. If memory serves, the headline was something like "Generation Debt."



Of course, as I penned those words on my tiny, crappy Mac and rode my bike through Midtown to deliver the piece (that's how things were done before the Internet), the economy was beginning to heat up. What followed were seven fat years in which exciting new industries were created, the stock market rose, and interest rates fell. As the 1990s wore on, most of my pals who had lamented their student loans, crappy jobs, and gross apartments found great jobs, loving spouses, and better housing.

And so, here we are again. Now, today's twentysomething authors are clearly onto something. College is more expensive today in real terms. There's been a shift in student aid—more loans and fewer grants. The Baby Boomers, closer to retirement, are sucking up more dollars in benefits. There's more income volatility and job insecurity than there used to be. So, why are these books—Generation Debt in particular—annoying?

It's not that the authors misdiagnose ills that affect our society. It's just that they lack the perspective to add any great insight. Writing in the New York Times this weekend, economics reporter David Leonhardt called Strapped, "a grim tale of one-sided generational warfare." Draut argues that "with the possible exception of having a larger array of entertainment and other goods to purchase, members of Generation X appear to be worse off by every measure" than prior generations. Huh? How about the Internet and Starbucks coffee and Lipitor and not having to worry so much about AIDS or crime or Mutual Assured Destruction or getting drafted into the Army and getting sent to Vietnam?

Also, many of the economic issues the authors identify—job insecurity, low savings rate, income volatility, the massive ongoing benefits cram-down—affect everybody, not just twentysomethings. And the people hurt most by these escalating trends aren't young people starting out. They're folks in their 50s and 60s, middle-managers at Delphi whose careers have ended, coal miners in West Virginia who face death on the job, the people at IBM who just saw their pensions frozen.

Today's twentysomethings, by contrast, have their whole lives in front of them. Want a cheaper house? Quit Manhattan and move to Hartford, Conn. Want to make more money? Pick a different field.

In Kamenetz's book, there are plenty of poor, self-pitying upper-middle-class types, disappointed that they can't have exactly what they want when they want it. Sure, it's tough to live well as a violinist or a grad student in New York today; but the same thing held 20 years ago, and 40 years ago. To improve their lot, twentysomethings have to do the same things their parents should be doing: saving more, spending less, building skills that are marketable, and aligning aspirations with abilities. It's tough to have a bourgeois life at 26.

Kamenetz also makes cavalier statements about economics and career development. "The job market sucks," she proclaims. It may not be as good as it was in the 1990s, but suck is a pretty strong term. She complains that a $700 personal computer, a necessity for any young person, is expensive. Huh? Computing is incredibly cheap. The first PC I bought, that crappy, tiny Mac, cost $2,000 in 1990 dollars.

Kamenetz complains that: "No employer has yet offered me a full-time job with a 401(k), a paid vacation, or any other benefits beyond the next assignment. I have a savings account but no retirement fund. I can't afford preschool fees or a mortgage anywhere near the city where I live and work." Of course, Kamenetz doesn't have kids to send to preschool. And chances are, by the time she does, she'll be able to afford preschool fees. Most people in their 20s don't realize that their incomes will rise over time (none of the people I know who have six-figure incomes today had them when they were 25), that they will marry or form a partnership with somebody else, thus increasing their income, and that they may get over having to live in the hippest possible neighborhood.

Look. It's tough coming out of Ivy League schools to New York and making your way in the world. The notion that you can be—and have to be—the author of your own destiny is both terrifying and exhilarating. And for those without marketable skills, who lack social and intellectual capital, the odds are indeed stacked against them. But someone like Kamenetz, who graduated from Yale in 2002, doesn't have much to kvetch about. In the press materials accompanying the book, she notes that just after she finished the first draft, her boyfriend "proposed to me on a tiny, idyllic island off the coast of Sweden." She continues: "As I write this, boxes of china and flatware, engagement gifts, sit in our living room waiting to go into storage because they just won't fit in our insanely narrow galley kitchen. We spent a whole afternoon exchanging the inevitable silver candlesticks and crystal vases, heavy artifacts of an iconic married life that still seems to have nothing to do with ours." The inevitable silver candlesticks? Too much flatware to fit in the kitchen? We should all have such problems.

And does her fiance have one of those crap temporary jobs all the drones in her generation are destined to hold forever? Not really. He's a software engineer at Google.


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Post by UMclassof2002 » Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:15 pm

I agree that many people who complain about lack of opportunity are just too lazy to create their own opportunities. There is a sense of entitlement around some people my age that is really f**king annoying. I also see it represented in magazines, TV, movies, etc. I'll give you an example:

I was watching a 3rd season episode of The Sopranos (OnDemand kicks arse) last night. It was the one where Meadow is at college and she is dating a film student named Noah. I know it is just acting, but they totally nailed this attitude that I hate. Going on about getting a C-minus like it is the end of the world, snotty attitudes about everything. Pussy crybaby stuff from people who have never had to work a day in their life and probably never will, but they go on about their problems like they matter to anyone. By no means am I a class warrior, because I aspire to be incredibly wealthy someday. There is just some undefinable quality that I loathe about people in their twenties who were born on third thinking they hit a triple.



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Post by Grizlaw » Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:39 pm

BozoneCat wrote:Performance reviews suck - period. I have to do these every few weeks during my clinicals, and even though I have no reason to expect anything bad, they always put me on edge too. Performance reviews are why beer was invented.
Yes they do. Mine was awesome, though, so I'm in a much better mood now. :D
By the way Grizlaw, since you're in New York I assume you got your LLM from NYU. Great school but it's not Florida. Go Gators!
You assume correctly. I take it you're also a tax lawyer??

I seriously considered going to UF for my LL.M. to save money, but the combination of the allure of a year in NYC and NYU's name recognition were too much for me to resist. They're both great schools though, IMO. I never really planned on staying in NYC, but after NYU and two years of clerking for a Tax Court judge in DC, I realized that I missed NYC...

Anyway, not to bore the entire board with my life story.

--GL
Last edited by Grizlaw on Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Post by BozoneCat » Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:41 pm

UMclassof2002 wrote:I agree that many people who complain about lack of opportunity are just too lazy to create their own opportunities. There is a sense of entitlement around some people my age that is really f**king annoying. I also see it represented in magazines, TV, movies, etc. I'll give you an example:

I was watching a 3rd season episode of The Sopranos (OnDemand kicks arse) last night. It was the one where Meadow is at college and she is dating a film student named Noah. I know it is just acting, but they totally nailed this attitude that I hate. Going on about getting a C-minus like it is the end of the world, snotty attitudes about everything. Pussy crybaby stuff from people who have never had to work a day in their life and probably never will, but they go on about their problems like they matter to anyone. By no means am I a class warrior, because I aspire to be incredibly wealthy someday. There is just some undefinable quality that I loathe about people in their twenties who were born on third thinking they hit a triple.
We finally agree on something! :wink:

Just for the record, when I mentioned that there are more opportunities in Boise (when compared to Montana), I meant the opportunity to work in a more diverse setting with more therapists to learn from, not the lack of available jobs in Montana. I hope that coming here to Boise will provide me with the best experience to learn during my first few years out of school in an environment I enjoy, which will hopefully expedite my ability to return to Montana and open my own business.


GO CATS GO!!!

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BR GRIZ
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Post by BR GRIZ » Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:13 pm

Grizlaw wrote:
You assume correctly. I take it you're also a tax lawyer??

I seriously considered going to UF for my LL.M. to save money, but the combination of the allure of a year in NYC and NYU's name recognition were too much for me to resist. They're both great schools though, IMO. I never really planned on staying in NYC, but after NYU and two years of clerking for a Tax Court judge in DC, I realized that I missed NYC...

Anyway, not to bore the entire board with my life story.

--GL
I seriously considered NYU, but got my LLM from UF to save the money. I also clerked for 2 years at the Tax Court, for Judge Koerner, loved it, but realized I didn't want to raise my kids there and wanted to return to Montana. PM me if you ever make it back to Montana for the Tax Institute.



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