High School Basketball

[John K]

I seem to recall that there are a few basketball post-season tourneys where the classes go head to head against each other, basically they form teams (invitation only I think) of the best in each class and then they play each other. I believe the class C teams, certainly last year and I think prior to that too, have been pretty dominant over the A and AA. I think class B girls may have won last year, I think but it was quite awhile ago so I may be off. Maybe this isn't the same thing you guys are talking about but I have heard for years how A and AA would dominate B & C, and perhaps team to team that may be true. However I think it's been proven that if you take the top of each of those classes and put them together, Class C is tough to beat, but native teams are nearly impossible to beat.

I think you're right that most of the all-star post-season tourneys are fairly even between the various classes, but that's partially because there are so many more small schools, and you have a larger pool of schools and players to choose from. But bringing together the top two teams from each class for a true all-class state tourney would be very different.

[Billings Cat]

I seem to recall that there are a few basketball post-season tourneys where the classes go head to head against each other, basically they form teams (invitation only I think) of the best in each class and then they play each other. I believe the class C teams, certainly last year and I think prior to that too, have been pretty dominant over the A and AA. I think class B girls may have won last year, I think but it was quite awhile ago so I may be off. Maybe this isn't the same thing you guys are talking about but I have heard for years how A and AA would dominate B & C, and perhaps team to team that may be true. However I think it's been proven that if you take the top of each of those classes and put them together, Class C is tough to beat, but native teams are nearly impossible to beat.

The Raddison Classic in Billings for the boys is one fo the post-season tourneys and teams from the AA have won it about 3/4 of the time so it would not be true to say that "class C teams have been pretty dominant." On the girls side, much more parity among the classifications.

[LTown Cat]

I seem to recall that there are a few basketball post-season tourneys where the classes go head to head against each other, basically they form teams (invitation only I think) of the best in each class and then they play each other. I believe the class C teams, certainly last year and I think prior to that too, have been pretty dominant over the A and AA. I think class B girls may have won last year, I think but it was quite awhile ago so I may be off. Maybe this isn't the same thing you guys are talking about but I have heard for years how A and AA would dominate B & C, and perhaps team to team that may be true. However I think it's been proven that if you take the top of each of those classes and put them together, Class C is tough to beat, but native teams are nearly impossible to beat.

The Raddison Classic in Billings for the boys is one fo the post-season tourneys and teams from the AA have won it about 3/4 of the time so it would not be true to say that "class C teams have been pretty dominant." On the girls side, much more parity among the classifications.

I was going to post the same thing. Most years on the boys side AA dominates the Raddison (or whatever they call it now). Usually it isn't even close in the chipper.

[classicat]

Crowne Plaza Senior Classic, and last year Class C won, pretty sure. No idea about prior years but seems to me in either '07 or '08, it was the same result.

I will certainly agree that taking actual teams from AA and pitting them against C would favor the AA team if for no other reason than in Class C, they recruit anyone and everyone who is willing (or breathing) to play, most years. AA & A, have the opportunity of cutting the not-so-good players and putting the best of the best together, so definitely they have the advantage. I have seen examples though of the smaller schools having success against the bigger schools as sometimes the bigger schools carry an attitude of superiority that the smaller schools can have success against simply because they try harder, does that make sense?

Doesn't matter really, natural talent plays a huge role but so does coaching and I'm not convinced that AA or A have the corner on either of those two elements all the time.

[John K]

Crowne Plaza Senior Classic, and last year Class C won, pretty sure. No idea about prior years but seems to me in either '07 or '08, it was the same result.

I will certainly agree that taking actual teams from AA and pitting them against C would favor the AA team if for no other reason than in Class C, they recruit anyone and everyone who is willing (or breathing) to play, most years. AA & A, have the opportunity of cutting the not-so-good players and putting the best of the best together, so definitely they have the advantage. I have seen examples though of the smaller schools having success against the bigger schools as sometimes the bigger schools carry an attitude of superiority that the smaller schools can have success against simply because they try harder, does that make sense?

Doesn't matter really, natural talent plays a huge role but so does coaching and I'm not convinced that AA or A have the corner on either of those two elements all the time.

I think that AA has a significant edge in talent, because it's simply a numbers game. If you can choose a 12-man varsity roster from a school with an enrollment of 2,000 students, you're normally going to have a more talented team, than if you're drawing from a school with an enrollment of 50. I believe they also have a big edge in coaching, since the best coaches normally move up the ladder to a larger school, if they've been successful at a smaller school. I don't mean to denigrate Class B and C hoops, but I believe that AA would generally dominate at an all-class state tourney. I also believe there's a larger difference between AA and A, than there is between A and B, or B and C.

[RedCat]

I don't think there is much difference at all between the top teams in class C and class B. Look at Rocky Boy for example. They got 2nd in state (class C) in 2008 and 2009 before going to class B and winning it all with an undefeated record. They basically had the same team all three years as well.

As for the coaching discussion I would say that most of the coaches at smaller schools don't have any aspirations of moving to bigger schools. Coaching high school basketall isn't a career for most people.

[John K]

I don't think there is much difference at all between the top teams in class C and class B. Look at Rocky Boy for example. They got 2nd in state (class C) in 2008 and 2009 before going to class B and winning it all with an undefeated record. They basically had the same team all three years as well.

I would certainly say there is less difference between C and B, than between B/A or A/AA. If their respective state champs played each other over a 10-year period, I would predict a split of 6 to 4.

[Billings Cat]

Crowne Plaza Senior Classic, and last year Class C won, pretty sure. No idea about prior years but seems to me in either '07 or '08, it was the same result.

I have seen examples though of the smaller schools having success against the bigger schools as sometimes the bigger schools carry an attitude of superiority that the smaller schools can have success against simply because they try harder, does that make sense?

Last 5 Crowne Plaza Champions:
2010 C North over AA Central
2009 AA South
2008 A Central over A East
2007 AA South
2006 AA South

So, AA teams have won 3 of the last 5 and played for the championship 4 of the last 5. And success for the larger classifications in this showcase is not a recent trend.

As for smaller schools "trying harder", couldn't disagree more. Kids are kids and the size of the school they're from has nothing to do with their effort. That's something that some folks can tell themselves, but it's just not true. I've seen kids from both large and small schools pout, dog it, and act like punks and also seen the reverse from both Class C, Class AA, and everything in between.

[LTown Cat]

Crowne Plaza Senior Classic, and last year Class C won, pretty sure. No idea about prior years but seems to me in either '07 or '08, it was the same result.

I have seen examples though of the smaller schools having success against the bigger schools as sometimes the bigger schools carry an attitude of superiority that the smaller schools can have success against simply because they try harder, does that make sense?

Last 5 Crowne Plaza Champions:
2010 C North over AA Central
2009 AA South
2008 A Central over A East
2007 AA South
2006 AA South

So, AA teams have won 3 of the last 5 and played for the championship 4 of the last 5. And success for the larger classifications in this showcase is not a recent trend.

As for smaller schools "trying harder", couldn't disagree more. Kids are kids and the size of the school they're from has nothing to do with their effort. That's something that some folks can tell themselves, but it's just not true. I've seen kids from both large and small schools pout, dog it, and act like punks and also seen the reverse from both Class C, Class AA, and everything in between.

Good post--couldn't agree more.

And for the results listed above--not surprising at all. Every time this comes up I say the same thing: It's very simple, anyone arguing for class C (or B) is simply playing a #'s game that cannot be won.

http://www.mhsa.org/Enrollment/2009-10% ... cation.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Total # of students:
AA-20,332
A-10,505
B-7,838
C-5,384

[CFCAT]

The post season all star games don't really apply to this argument at all. It is more about any one school having a group of kids who can compete with anyone at any level. I would agree that over a 100 year period, AA would win a few more. However, I would put Columbia Falls against any AA, B, or C team this year, and I think A would be the winner this year!

[LTown Cat]

The post season all star games don't really apply to this argument at all. It is more about any one school having a group of kids who can compete with anyone at any level. I would agree that over a 100 year period, AA would win a few more. However, I would put Columbia Falls against any AA, B, or C team this year, and I think A would be the winner this year!

That is why I would love to see a superstate tournament with the top 2 from each class. That would be the only way to settle this argument. We need someone with money to come forth and make it happen. Much how wrestling, and now I believe track, does it.

[WolfPtCat]

Good luck to the Wolf Point Wolves!

They are undefeated heading into the State B Tourney in Gt. Falls this weekend. Beat Malta in District Title game, Rocky Boy & Shelby at Divisionals. They do not have any superstars at all, just a bunch of utility-type players that work amazing together. Typical Res/Class B team...non-stop pressue, always looking to run. Could very well be a Shelby/WP rematch for the State title.

Wolf Point has a proud baskeball history, including Class A titles, Class B titles, and a Class AA "Big 32" title in 1968 (Which proves that Class B towns can and HAVE beaten AA teams in a full regular/post season!!) Someone earlier said no B or C team could do it in a 100yrs....it already happend! WP was by far the smallest school in the Big 32, knocking off the likes of Kalispell, Gt. Falls High, and Billings West.

It has been too many years since they've brought home a title....Good Luck Boys! Hoka Hey!

[Billings Cat]

The post season all star games don't really apply to this argument at all. It is more about any one school having a group of kids who can compete with anyone at any level. I would agree that over a 100 year period, AA would win a few more. However, I would put Columbia Falls against any AA, B, or C team this year, and I think A would be the winner this year!

Sure it can happen...never said it wouldn't...and Columbia Falls might just be the best team on the boys side this year in the state this year...but a couple things I find very interesting on the girls side this year that support my point...the state runner-up in Class A Laurel was swept by a middling Billings Senior team that didn't even qualify for the state AA tournament and third place Billings Central lost to arguably the 2nd worst team in the AA, Billings Skyview, this season.

[ilovethecats]

i'm sorry, but i have watched columbia falls this year twice and they wouldn't come within 10-15 of the top teams in AA this year. this isn't a knock on them because i did think they were a good team. just not the overall talent....and depth especially of the AA's best.

[rook]

^
Class C kid.

This is a pretty entertaining topic, and I'm late to the party, but I would like to chime in with everyone who says the bigger schools would consistently win. As said earlier, it's a numbers game.

Another piece of evidence that no one has mentioned is the Indiana all class tournament. My freshman year of college there in '97 was the last year it happened, and it was a huge deal because a realitvely small school from LaPorte was making a run. Just about everybody wanted them to win in the last year... ... and in the end, a giant from Indianapolis knocked them off. (quarterfinals maybe?) i don't remember eacactly the stats, but a school smaller than XXX hadn't won it in forever. (since hoosiers...) The point I'm trying to make is that its a real world example of how the smalls actual "win the whole thing %" is single digits. once in fifty years type thing. They did away with it largely because of it.

For fun though, what smaller schools in your day mightv'e made a run? Here's mine:
Boys BBall
Belt in 95- 96
Fairfield in the mid nineties

Girls Bball
Winifred in the mid nineties

It isn't basketball, but Harlo's track team in 97-98. and Scobey was dominant in all sports around that time. I remember they had a huge number advantage just for putting kids on the floor,field, etc.

[wasacatfan]

Boys b-ball Westby and Plentywood of the middle 70s or around there. Outlook and Flaxville could compete very well also and to think these towns were all within 50 miles of each other.

[CFCAT]

i'm sorry, but i have watched columbia falls this year twice and they wouldn't come within 10-15 of the top teams in AA this year. this isn't a knock on them because i did think they were a good team. just not the overall talent....and depth especially of the AA's best.

C Falls is 4-0 against AA this year, including a win against Western AA #1 seed Glacier and against Sentinal who beat Bozeman. 10-15 points is just ridiculous, and why I again say, lets roll it out and see who would win.

[Billings Cat]

i'm sorry, but i have watched columbia falls this year twice and they wouldn't come within 10-15 of the top teams in AA this year. this isn't a knock on them because i did think they were a good team. just not the overall talent....and depth especially of the AA's best.

C Falls is 4-0 against AA this year, including a win against Western AA #1 seed Glacier and against Sentinal who beat Bozeman. 10-15 points is just ridiculous, and why I again say, lets roll it out and see who would win.

Never gonna happen. The only way you're going to see these kids competing against one another is at the post-season all-star tournaments like the Radisson. What they've done with wrestling is admirable, but most of the good kids aren't showing up and never will for that thing. The mythical All-Class state title will remain just that...mythical.

[CPACAT]

i'm sorry, but i have watched columbia falls this year twice and they wouldn't come within 10-15 of the top teams in AA this year. this isn't a knock on them because i did think they were a good team. just not the overall talent....and depth especially of the AA's best.

C Falls is 4-0 against AA this year, including a win against Western AA #1 seed Glacier and against Sentinal who beat Bozeman. 10-15 points is just ridiculous, and why I again say, lets roll it out and see who would win.

Never gonna happen. The only way you're going to see these kids competing against one another is at the post-season all-star tournaments like the Radisson. What they've done with wrestling is admirable, but most of the good kids aren't showing up and never will for that thing. The mythical All-Class state title will remain just that...mythical.

I would say that this year most of the good kids showed up. Yes there were some that did not for whatever reason with a lot of them being AA wrestlers but I would say that they probably had 8 of the top 10 wreslters pound for pound there this year. It is improving each year.

[LTown Cat]

i'm sorry, but i have watched columbia falls this year twice and they wouldn't come within 10-15 of the top teams in AA this year. this isn't a knock on them because i did think they were a good team. just not the overall talent....and depth especially of the AA's best.

C Falls is 4-0 against AA this year, including a win against Western AA #1 seed Glacier and against Sentinal who beat Bozeman. 10-15 points is just ridiculous, and why I again say, lets roll it out and see who would win.

Never gonna happen. The only way you're going to see these kids competing against one another is at the post-season all-star tournaments like the Radisson. What they've done with wrestling is admirable, but most of the good kids aren't showing up and never will for that thing. The mythical All-Class state title will remain just that...mythical.

I would say that this year most of the good kids showed up. Yes there were some that did not for whatever reason with a lot of them being AA wrestlers but I would say that they probably had 8 of the top 10 wreslters pound for pound there this year. It is improving each year.

I agree. Money talks. If someone offered to sponsor--pay expenses, etc. for the schools--I bet it could be done.