High School Basketball

[Billings Cat]

C Falls beat Missoula Big Sky last night.

They beat Missoula Sentinal, but they do play Big Sky later on in the year.

But all this talk about different divisions always gets me wondering, why can't there be an All Class tourney after the state tournaments. I would think you could take the 4 state champs and 4 wild cards chosen by coaches, media, and maybe refs and put the questions about who is best to bed. Taking a wild card instead of the 2nd place team (although that team could still be the one chosen) would allow for the all year number one team who was upset at districts or divisionals or some such scenario. I would just love to see the differing styles of play going up against each other, and I wouldn't expect AA or A to win significantly more than B or C.

Thoughts?

I think that woluld be extremely cool, but just like you'll probably never see MSU play Carroll in football due to the "everything to lose/nothing to gain" argument, I think the AA and A schools would be reluctant to agree to an all-class state tourney for the same reason. I do thnk that they would win most of the time, but certainly not every year. It would definitely be interesting, and I personally would love to see it, but I doubt that it will ever happen.

Either the AA or A would win it EVERY year. The difference comes down to two things--defense and the weakest link. The difference between how defense is played at the AA (and A to a degree) level is so different than what you see at the B and C level and it would be huge. And while there is no difference between the best players at the largest schools and those at the smallest schools, there's usually one or two players starting on the B and C schools who would not even make the varsity team at some of the larger schools and this weakness would be taken advantage of big-time.

[John K]

C Falls beat Missoula Big Sky last night.

They beat Missoula Sentinal, but they do play Big Sky later on in the year.

But all this talk about different divisions always gets me wondering, why can't there be an All Class tourney after the state tournaments. I would think you could take the 4 state champs and 4 wild cards chosen by coaches, media, and maybe refs and put the questions about who is best to bed. Taking a wild card instead of the 2nd place team (although that team could still be the one chosen) would allow for the all year number one team who was upset at districts or divisionals or some such scenario. I would just love to see the differing styles of play going up against each other, and I wouldn't expect AA or A to win significantly more than B or C.

Thoughts?

I think that woluld be extremely cool, but just like you'll probably never see MSU play Carroll in football due to the "everything to lose/nothing to gain" argument, I think the AA and A schools would be reluctant to agree to an all-class state tourney for the same reason. I do thnk that they would win most of the time, but certainly not every year. It would definitely be interesting, and I personally would love to see it, but I doubt that it will ever happen.

Either the AA or A would win it EVERY year. The difference comes down to two things--defense and the weakest link. The difference between how defense is played at the AA (and A to a degree) level is so different than what you see at the B and C level and it would be huge. And while there is no difference between the best players at the largest schools and those at the smallest schools, there's usually one or two players starting on the B and C schools who would not even make the varsity team at some of the larger schools and this weakness would be taken advantage of big-time.

I pretty much agree with you about defense and depth of talent being vastly superior at the AA level. I actually think there's more difference between AA and A than there is between A and B, and even less difference still between B and C. I would stop short of saying AA or A would win it every single year though. There have been some powerhouse B and C teams over the years that would have had a realistic chance to beat the AA and A champs. Although it would likely be very rare....maybe once every 10 years or so?? Keep in mind that you're talking about one game, and a B or C team with a few good 3-point shooters could get hot and be very tough to beat. However, if the same two teams were to play each other several times during the course of a season, the AA/A champs still might win more than they'd lose against the B/C champs.

[LTown Cat]

C Falls beat Missoula Big Sky last night.

They beat Missoula Sentinal, but they do play Big Sky later on in the year.

But all this talk about different divisions always gets me wondering, why can't there be an All Class tourney after the state tournaments. I would think you could take the 4 state champs and 4 wild cards chosen by coaches, media, and maybe refs and put the questions about who is best to bed. Taking a wild card instead of the 2nd place team (although that team could still be the one chosen) would allow for the all year number one team who was upset at districts or divisionals or some such scenario. I would just love to see the differing styles of play going up against each other, and I wouldn't expect AA or A to win significantly more than B or C.

Thoughts?

I've said that for years but I would just take the top 2 from each division for an 8-team tourney.

[John K]

C Falls beat Missoula Big Sky last night.

They beat Missoula Sentinal, but they do play Big Sky later on in the year.

But all this talk about different divisions always gets me wondering, why can't there be an All Class tourney after the state tournaments. I would think you could take the 4 state champs and 4 wild cards chosen by coaches, media, and maybe refs and put the questions about who is best to bed. Taking a wild card instead of the 2nd place team (although that team could still be the one chosen) would allow for the all year number one team who was upset at districts or divisionals or some such scenario. I would just love to see the differing styles of play going up against each other, and I wouldn't expect AA or A to win significantly more than B or C.

Thoughts?

I've said that for years but I would just take the top 2 from each division for an 8-team tourney.

I agree....I think it should be the top 2 from each class, rather than 4 "at large" teams.

[LTown Cat]

I've often thought a private individual could make a lot of money putting this together if the MHSA would allow it. Especially if you ran boys and girls at the same facility/same time.

They do it for wrestling and track...why not bball?

[CFCAT]

Obviously the champ from every class would have to get in, but often the best two teams meet in the semi's or earlier. It would be an argument often, but I think the coaches generally know who the toughest teams are.

That said, I am a ardent class A guy, and I don't think B and C are getting near enough respect. It would be very hard for some of the class AA and A teams to adjust to the run and gun styles of the B or C teams.

Last year I think you could have easily argued that class B was the toughest in the state, and Rocky Boy brought back a lot of their talent. I would totally agree that depth is better the higher you go, but that is the beauty, or worst part, about basketball....some years you just need that one or two kids.

One of the most quality state chippers I've ever seen was Heart Butte vs. Hays-Lodgepole in 2002 (maybe 03). Haven't seen many AA or A teams that would have kept up with Heart Butte that year..

I'm sure you have all have such examples.

[Billings Cat]

Obviously the champ from every class would have to get in, but often the best two teams meet in the semi's or earlier. It would be an argument often, but I think the coaches generally know who the toughest teams are.

That said, I am a ardent class A guy, and I don't think B and C are getting near enough respect. It would be very hard for some of the class AA and A teams to adjust to the run and gun styles of the B or C teams.

Last year I think you could have easily argued that class B was the toughest in the state, and Rocky Boy brought back a lot of their talent. I would totally agree that depth is better the higher you go, but that is the beauty, or worst part, about basketball....some years you just need that one or two kids.

One of the most quality state chippers I've ever seen was Heart Butte vs. Hays-Lodgepole in 2002 (maybe 03). Haven't seen many AA or A teams that would have kept up with Heart Butte that year..

I'm sure you have all have such examples.

It would be very hard for the B or C teams to run and gun against teams in the AA. I always find it funny when people talk about how the B or C are superior to the AA (or A) because they play "run and gun" and most teams in the larger classifications don't, and are therefore boring. Well, the reason you don't see "run and gun" in the AA is because of the overall parity of that athletes on the floor. Beating the other team down the floor and beating your man consistently for an open shot is hard hard hard. That's why you just don't see many players average 20 points in the AA. If you're better than the other guy, then being disciplined isn't as important, but if the other guy is just as talented as you are, and more disciplined, I like his chances every time.

[c.falls cat]

i think your right on BC. i always think of the nfl vs. college football when i hear the style of play argument. the reason you don't see an u. of oregon style offense in the nfl is because there is too much speed and much smarter players. run and gun stuff just doesn't work in 'AA' because even the bad teams have a bunch of really athletic kids.

that being said, i do think that the top couple of class B teams could play with the AA's, but top to bottom the two are not close.

[CFCAT]

that being said, i do think that the top couple of class B teams could play with the AA's, but top to bottom the two are not close.

Which is why a tournament of this style would work. I don't disagree with BC's points across the board, but this would be the best 2 teams from B and C.

[longhorn_22]

Anyone have the West High boys basketballs schedule? Whoever runs their site is lazy and STILL has the 09-10 schedule up. Thanks.

[Billings_Griz]

Anyone have the West High boys basketballs schedule? Whoever runs their site is lazy and STILL has the 09-10 schedule up. Thanks.

I think its on Gazette, prep sports. Sorry, too lazy to look. Merry Christmas though.

[ilovethecats]

One of the most quality state chippers I've ever seen was Heart Butte vs. Hays-Lodgepole in 2002 (maybe 03). Haven't seen many AA or A teams that would have kept up with Heart Butte that year..

wasn't that the same year that bozeman went 23-0? the team that had four of their starters play college hoops and 2 of them (owsley and dissly) play D1? i might have the years messed up but i watched heart butte the year they won it all and i concede they were a very good team. but that '03 hawks team was one of the best teams in the state i have ever seen. i remember thinking how good the billings west teams and bozeman teams were in the late nineties but none of them even touch that '03 squad.

[John K]

One of the most quality state chippers I've ever seen was Heart Butte vs. Hays-Lodgepole in 2002 (maybe 03). Haven't seen many AA or A teams that would have kept up with Heart Butte that year..

wasn't that the same year that bozeman went 23-0? the team that had four of their starters play college hoops and 2 of them (owsley and dissly) play D1? i might have the years messed up but i watched heart butte the year they won it all and i concede they were a very good team. but that '03 hawks team was one of the best teams in the state i have ever seen. i remember thinking how good the billings west teams and bozeman teams were in the late nineties but none of them even touch that '03 squad.

It was 2003 when Bozeman won the AA title, and I agree, that was one of the best high school teams ever. The state tourney was in GF, and i watched most of the games including the championship, in which Bozeman crushed Flathead by more than 30 points. In fact, they won all three games at State by at least 20 that year.

[LTown Cat]

One of the most quality state chippers I've ever seen was Heart Butte vs. Hays-Lodgepole in 2002 (maybe 03). Haven't seen many AA or A teams that would have kept up with Heart Butte that year..

wasn't that the same year that bozeman went 23-0? the team that had four of their starters play college hoops and 2 of them (owsley and dissly) play D1? i might have the years messed up but i watched heart butte the year they won it all and i concede they were a very good team. but that '03 hawks team was one of the best teams in the state i have ever seen. i remember thinking how good the billings west teams and bozeman teams were in the late nineties but none of them even touch that '03 squad.

And Durham--wasn't he a junior on that team?

[bozbobcat]

One of the most quality state chippers I've ever seen was Heart Butte vs. Hays-Lodgepole in 2002 (maybe 03). Haven't seen many AA or A teams that would have kept up with Heart Butte that year..

wasn't that the same year that bozeman went 23-0? the team that had four of their starters play college hoops and 2 of them (owsley and dissly) play D1? i might have the years messed up but i watched heart butte the year they won it all and i concede they were a very good team. but that '03 hawks team was one of the best teams in the state i have ever seen. i remember thinking how good the billings west teams and bozeman teams were in the late nineties but none of them even touch that '03 squad.

And Durham--wasn't he a junior on that team?

Durham graduated in 2002, the year before the '03 team took state. They played for the championship in 2002, but lost to CMR in Belgrade.

[CFCAT]

wasn't that the same year that bozeman went 23-0? the team that had four of their starters play college hoops and 2 of them (owsley and dissly) play D1? i might have the years messed up but i watched heart butte the year they won it all and i concede they were a very good team. but that '03 hawks team was one of the best teams in the state i have ever seen. i remember thinking how good the billings west teams and bozeman teams were in the late nineties but none of them even touch that '03 squad.

I agree that team was great. I was living in Bozeman that year, and I saw both Heart Butte and Bozeman a few times. I just think it would be great to have them go at it. Owsley would have had a very hard time with Chavez and Durham would have had trouble with Racine. Dissly would have been the factor, but its just one game, you never know.

[ilovethecats]

wasn't that the same year that bozeman went 23-0? the team that had four of their starters play college hoops and 2 of them (owsley and dissly) play D1? i might have the years messed up but i watched heart butte the year they won it all and i concede they were a very good team. but that '03 hawks team was one of the best teams in the state i have ever seen. i remember thinking how good the billings west teams and bozeman teams were in the late nineties but none of them even touch that '03 squad.

I agree that team was great. I was living in Bozeman that year, and I saw both Heart Butte and Bozeman a few times. I just think it would be great to have them go at it. Owsley would have had a very hard time with Chavez and Durham would have had trouble with Racine. Dissly would have been the factor, but its just one game, you never know.

ya i just don't think it'd be very close. durham wasn't on that team though. their starter that year was chris townley (sp?) i believe. he went on to play at rocky if i'm not mistaken. that team was just too athletic, and too deep for anyone to compete with. that is always my argument for the AA teams when this discussion gets brought up. it's not that good players can't come out of A, B, or even C classes. it's that after the one or two studs the talent falls off at those lower classes. with many of the AA schools, there are kids that are the 6th, 7th, or even 8th guy in the lineup who would start and star for almost every class A, B, or C school. in fact, i'd say that several of the bench players on that '03 hawks squad likely would have started for most AA schools in the state.

this is the case for all AA schools but especially here in bozeman with there only being one high school. anytime you get the top 10 or so kids in the entire valley you are going to be pretty deep. imagine how good teams from missoula, billings, great falls, etc. would be if they had only one or two schools! so it's not a slight on the smaller classes, just a simple matter of math in my opinion....

[RedCat]

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Heart Butte won in 2000 and 2001. I believe Chavez transferred to Browning in 2002 and won one there. Those 2000 and 2001 Heart Butte teams were awfully tough and would have competed with the A and AA. For the most part the A and AA would win but there would certainly be years when the B and C would win. Maybe one of 10 or so.

[classicat]

I seem to recall that there are a few basketball post-season tourneys where the classes go head to head against each other, basically they form teams (invitation only I think) of the best in each class and then they play each other. I believe the class C teams, certainly last year and I think prior to that too, have been pretty dominant over the A and AA. I think class B girls may have won last year, I think but it was quite awhile ago so I may be off. Maybe this isn't the same thing you guys are talking about but I have heard for years how A and AA would dominate B & C, and perhaps team to team that may be true. However I think it's been proven that if you take the top of each of those classes and put them together, Class C is tough to beat, but native teams are nearly impossible to beat.

[John K]

So what would be your prediction for the split during an average 10-year period of time? I would go with Class AA - 7, Class A - 2, Class B - 1, and Class C - 0. That's not to say that a Class C team could never win it, but I don't think it would happen once out of 10 years....maybe more like once every 20 years or so. It sure would be fun and interesting to watch though, and even though the larger schools would win a majority of the inter-class matchups, I think most of the games would be quite competitive.