UM's team and MSU's team

[Prodigal Cat]

2021 we had an offense that was trying to utilize a RB with 2 bum knees and a QB that had quit the team. That game was less about scheme and more about what was going on with the offensive room. The defense was put in bad situation after bad situation because the offense could get out their own way. Isaiah was hurt and Matt had checked out. Gris actually got a FG on a possession that they lost yards.

On another note. Gris are getting the Cat treatment minus a second road game. Prime time game that they won't get home till the wee hours of the morning while the Cats get a normal game on Saturday.

[BozoneCat]

The griz have no talent this year but their coaching is so much better than the Cats. I think we will have a tough time beating them.

Wow I'm willing to bet this comment won't age well...

I agree we have more talent by a significant margin. I don't know if they have "better" coaches but they have more passionate coaches especially when it comes to Cat/griz. I'd bet a lot Bobby has put way more into that game than Vigen has. We need the Choate we saw in the Miracle in Missoula documentary for that game. That just isn't Vigen's style.

Did…did you not watch the game last year?

Vigen has taken this program to places that Choate wouldn’t have, because Choate couldn’t recruit and develop a QB. Just because Vigen isn’t as outwardly expressive doesn’t mean he isn’t just as invested in the game. I promise you that Vigen gets how much the game means.

I did watch the game last year. I also watched the year before in Missoula with a very different outcome. I guarantee Bobby has done more preparation for the game than Vigen has. This is just another one you and I will have to agree to disagree on.

I'd agree that Vigen did not quite understand the significance and gravity of Cat-gris during his first season, but he sure as hell learned in a big hurry (like most first-year coaches on either side of the rivalry) and you saw what happened last year. I don't think Bobbi is doing anything more than Vigen is, because both coaches understand what this game means - all the moreso this year, as the winner likely pulls a top 4 seed. Loved Choate, and I would kill to have been in the locker room when he was here. I struggle at times to get as excited listening to Vigen do BQC or his pressers, but have you seen clips of him in the locker room? He's every single bit as fiery as Choate.

If we lose, it won't be for lack of preparation or motivation. It likely will be because of injuries and self-inflicted mistakes that we seem to continue to struggle with. I still love our odds.

[Grizfan7]

I find it interesting that no one has stepped up to provide support for the statements that the Cats have "significantly more talent" than the Griz. Just a bunch of bold and broad statements. The Cats may well be significantly more talented, but I don't know enough about the Cats to know. Anyone want to provide some explanation?

I have said all along that your 2 QB's are better, but McDowell is conference offensive player of week this week. Gillman is 3d in rushing in the conference, and is average almost 6 per carry. The UM linebackers are very good. Braxton Hill is playing at all conference level, and I think 2d in tackles in conference. Many say Gubner is the best defensive player in the conference. Bergen is good and dangerous. UM has some other good receivers. The UM o-line is coming back to life, even with Mayginness not playing in recent games. Yes, I know the Cat o-line is very good. I like the Cats' no. 10. Cats seem to have more injuries than UM.

[Cataholic]

I find it interesting that no one has stepped up to provide support for the statements that the Cats have "significantly more talent" than the Griz. Just a bunch of bold and broad statements. The Cats may well be significantly more talented, but I don't know enough about the Cats to know. Anyone want to provide some explanation?

I have said all along that your 2 QB's are better, but McDowell is conference offensive player of week this week. Gillman is 3d in rushing in the conference, and is average almost 6 per carry. The UM linebackers are very good. Braxton Hill is playing at all conference level, and I think 2d in tackles in conference. Many say Gubner is the best defensive player in the conference. Bergen is good and dangerous. UM has some other good receivers. The UM o-line is coming back to life, even with Mayginness not playing in recent games. Yes, I know the Cat o-line is very good. I like the Cats' no. 10. Cats seem to have more injuries than UM.

Hmmm…. So here is the preseason all-conference team. Seems whoever puts the list together thought the Cats were better.

https://bigskyconf.com/news/2023/7/23/f ... n-qb1.aspx

And the list is missing both Tommy and Chambers who are clearly better than your guy. And one of the Montana guys on the list was labelled a quitter by Griz nation in the NAU game. Sunburst MT has a better TE than any on your roster right now. We are down to our 3rd TE and he is better than any of yours. We have guys at WR who played in the SEC and the Pac-12. Our RB stable is loaded but each guy has only played half of the games due to injuries. We had our 5th string RB in Elliott getting reps with multiple touchdowns and he would start at UM. Your argument is just stupid.

[Grizfan7]

I find it interesting that no one has stepped up to provide support for the statements that the Cats have "significantly more talent" than the Griz. Just a bunch of bold and broad statements. The Cats may well be significantly more talented, but I don't know enough about the Cats to know. Anyone want to provide some explanation?

I have said all along that your 2 QB's are better, but McDowell is conference offensive player of week this week. Gillman is 3d in rushing in the conference, and is average almost 6 per carry. The UM linebackers are very good. Braxton Hill is playing at all conference level, and I think 2d in tackles in conference. Many say Gubner is the best defensive player in the conference. Bergen is good and dangerous. UM has some other good receivers. The UM o-line is coming back to life, even with Mayginness not playing in recent games. Yes, I know the Cat o-line is very good. I like the Cats' no. 10. Cats seem to have more injuries than UM.

Hmmm…. So here is the preseason all-conference team. Seems whoever puts the list together thought the Cats were better.

https://bigskyconf.com/news/2023/7/23/f ... n-qb1.aspx

And the list is missing both Tommy and Chambers who are clearly better than your guy. And one of the Montana guys on the list was labelled a quitter by Griz nation in the NAU game. Sunburst MT has a better TE than any on your roster right now. We are down to our 3rd TE and he is better than any of yours. We have guys at WR who played in the SEC and the Pac-12. Our RB stable is loaded but each guy has only played half of the games due to injuries. We had our 5th string RB in Elliott getting reps with multiple touchdowns and he would start at UM. Your argument is just stupid.

I am talking about now, not preseason. And something from Cat fans who would know their team better than those who pick preseason teams. Or are you saying your team has significantly more talent because of your preseason picks? Are they all healthy and playing now? UM no. 61 played great too games ago. Was dominant. Has some things going on now, especially family issues. The Griz running backs are better than the Cat running backs. That I know. Receivers? Who? Braxton Hill is playing at all-conference level. I don’t expect you to be able to respond with specifics. That’s okay. No big deal.

I didn’t really make an argument in the prior post, so don’t know what could have been stupid. Feel free to explain.

[BelligerentBobcat]

I find it interesting that no one has stepped up to provide support for the statements that the Cats have "significantly more talent" than the Griz. Just a bunch of bold and broad statements. The Cats may well be significantly more talented, but I don't know enough about the Cats to know. Anyone want to provide some explanation?

I have said all along that your 2 QB's are better, but McDowell is conference offensive player of week this week. Gillman is 3d in rushing in the conference, and is average almost 6 per carry. The UM linebackers are very good. Braxton Hill is playing at all conference level, and I think 2d in tackles in conference. Many say Gubner is the best defensive player in the conference. Bergen is good and dangerous. UM has some other good receivers. The UM o-line is coming back to life, even with Mayginness not playing in recent games. Yes, I know the Cat o-line is very good. I like the Cats' no. 10. Cats seem to have more injuries than UM.

Hmmm…. So here is the preseason all-conference team. Seems whoever puts the list together thought the Cats were better.

https://bigskyconf.com/news/2023/7/23/f ... n-qb1.aspx

And the list is missing both Tommy and Chambers who are clearly better than your guy. And one of the Montana guys on the list was labelled a quitter by Griz nation in the NAU game. Sunburst MT has a better TE than any on your roster right now. We are down to our 3rd TE and he is better than any of yours. We have guys at WR who played in the SEC and the Pac-12. Our RB stable is loaded but each guy has only played half of the games due to injuries. We had our 5th string RB in Elliott getting reps with multiple touchdowns and he would start at UM. Your argument is just stupid.

I hate to do this, but Elliott wouldn’t start at UM.

[TomCat88]

I find it interesting that no one has stepped up to provide support for the statements that the Cats have "significantly more talent" than the Griz. Just a bunch of bold and broad statements. The Cats may well be significantly more talented, but I don't know enough about the Cats to know. Anyone want to provide some explanation?

I have said all along that your 2 QB's are better, but McDowell is conference offensive player of week this week. Gillman is 3d in rushing in the conference, and is average almost 6 per carry. The UM linebackers are very good. Braxton Hill is playing at all conference level, and I think 2d in tackles in conference. Many say Gubner is the best defensive player in the conference. Bergen is good and dangerous. UM has some other good receivers. The UM o-line is coming back to life, even with Mayginness not playing in recent games. Yes, I know the Cat o-line is very good. I like the Cats' no. 10. Cats seem to have more injuries than UM.

Hmmm…. So here is the preseason all-conference team. Seems whoever puts the list together thought the Cats were better.

https://bigskyconf.com/news/2023/7/23/f ... n-qb1.aspx

And the list is missing both Tommy and Chambers who are clearly better than your guy. And one of the Montana guys on the list was labelled a quitter by Griz nation in the NAU game. Sunburst MT has a better TE than any on your roster right now. We are down to our 3rd TE and he is better than any of yours. We have guys at WR who played in the SEC and the Pac-12. Our RB stable is loaded but each guy has only played half of the games due to injuries. We had our 5th string RB in Elliott getting reps with multiple touchdowns and he would start at UM. Your argument is just stupid.

I hate to do this, but Elliott wouldn’t start at UM.

True. He’s injured.

[BelligerentBobcat]

I’ll bite.

QB: Clearly MSU has the advantage here. Both QB’s are better than McDowell.

RB: I think Julius Davis is better than Gilman, although I do like Gilman. Davis is more complete, runs more physical, less boom/bust. Gilman more explosive. I’m not that impressed with Ostmo. White is better than Ostmo, I think White and Gilman are pretty similar impact wise. White has made some tremendous downfield catches that RB’s typically don’t make.

TE: Even with the injuries, MSU is ahead here. Grossman would start for MSU if healthy though. Snell is more versatile, impacts their offense more.

OL: Although UM’s is playing better, MSU’s is still clearly better. I wouldn’t trade a single one.

WR: As currently constructed, I’d take UM’s WR’s over MSU’s in terms of being good receivers. Clevan Thomas is a very good run blocker, and that does matter for MSU. Bergen is fantastic, and Fontes is a better route runner than anybody MSU has. McCullouch is good, but he’s more athlete than WR IMO. It’s pretty close overall, I think.

DL: Although Gubner is very good, Valdez is better. Gubner would probably start over Schmidt, but Schmidt is no slouch. There’s nobody else for UM that’s good enough to start on the line. Grebe is much better than any edge they have.

LB: Again, considering injury, I would probably take UM over MSU here. Danny U is as good as anybody they have, but he’s hurt. Askelson is very good, very physical, but a touch limited athletically. I really like Braxton Hill. Wilson is intriguing but streaky, Flink is just a guy. Nothing special at all imo.

DB’s: MSU wins here. Don’t think it’s particularly close either.

K: probably UM but I’ll be honest, I don’t even know who they have.

P: MSU easy

PR: This goes to Bergen

KR: draw

[Grizfan7]

I’ll bite.

QB: Clearly MSU has the advantage here. Both QB’s are better than McDowell. [I will give you that. Especially Mellott.]

RB: I think Julius Davis is better than Gilman, although I do like Gilman. Davis is more complete, runs more physical, less boom/bust. Gilman more explosive. I’m not that impressed with Ostmo. White is better than Ostmo, I think White and Gilman are pretty similar impact wise. White has made some tremendous downfield catches that RB’s typically don’t make. [I will take both Gillman and Ostmo over any of the Cat backs.]

TE: Even with the injuries, MSU is ahead here. Grossman would start for MSU if healthy though. Snell is more versatile, impacts their offense more. [You can have this one. Is Snell healthy? I don't know enough to judge.}

OL: Although UM’s is playing better, MSU’s is still clearly better. I wouldn’t trade a single one. [UM's o-line is coming along. Their pass protection is getting back to where it should have been all season. Note the UM no. 55 was picked earlier in the season to be the first Big Sky player drafted. He's finally coming alive. I don't think your o-line could protect our QB's. You can have this one too.]

WR: As currently constructed, I’d take UM’s WR’s over MSU’s in terms of being good receivers. Clevan Thomas is a very good run blocker, and that does matter for MSU. Bergen is fantastic, and Fontes is a better route runner than anybody MSU has. McCullouch is good, but he’s more athlete than WR IMO. It’s pretty close overall, I think. [UM's receivers are better. They block fairly well too.]

DL: Although Gubner is very good, Valdez is better. Gubner would probably start over Schmidt, but Schmidt is no slouch. There’s nobody else for UM that’s good enough to start on the line. Grebe is much better than any edge they have. [I disagree on Gubner. He is the best defensive player in the conference. Grebe is very good. UM still has 3 of its top 4 d-line out, or almost out., but the d-line is playing well. It has gained some depth over the season too.]

LB: Again, considering injury, I would probably take UM over MSU here. Danny U is as good as anybody they have, but he’s hurt. Askelson is very good, very physical, but a touch limited athletically. I really like Braxton Hill. Wilson is intriguing but streaky, Flink is just a guy. Nothing special at all imo. [UM's linebackers are considerably better. Wilson is not streaky. He's very good and very fast. Janacaro is good too. Flink has 7 tackles, 6 solo, against SS, and had a terrific game.]

DB’s: MSU wins here. Don’t think it’s particularly close either. [I disagree. I like UM's db's better.]

K: probably UM but I’ll be honest, I don’t even know who they have. [I liked your kicker earlier in the season. UM has 2 pretty good kickers, but not consistent. This one can be a push.]

P: MSU easy [I don't know who your punter is or how he's doing., so I won't debate this one.]

PR: This goes to Bergen [Bergen is the best in the conference.]

KR: draw [I don't know enough to debate this one.]

See my comments to your comments in brackets and bold. I think we made some progress.It was nice to have the discussion. I learned some things. Thx.

[BelligerentBobcat]

I’ll bite.

QB: Clearly MSU has the advantage here. Both QB’s are better than McDowell. [I will give you that. Especially Mellott.]

RB: I think Julius Davis is better than Gilman, although I do like Gilman. Davis is more complete, runs more physical, less boom/bust. Gilman more explosive. I’m not that impressed with Ostmo. White is better than Ostmo, I think White and Gilman are pretty similar impact wise. White has made some tremendous downfield catches that RB’s typically don’t make. [I will take both Gillman and Ostmo over any of the Cat backs.]

TE: Even with the injuries, MSU is ahead here. Grossman would start for MSU if healthy though. Snell is more versatile, impacts their offense more. [You can have this one. Is Snell healthy? I don't know enough to judge.}

OL: Although UM’s is playing better, MSU’s is still clearly better. I wouldn’t trade a single one. [UM's o-line is coming along. Their pass protection is getting back to where it should have been all season. Note the UM no. 55 was picked earlier in the season to be the first Big Sky player drafted. He's finally coming alive. I don't think your o-line could protect our QB's. You can have this one too.]

WR: As currently constructed, I’d take UM’s WR’s over MSU’s in terms of being good receivers. Clevan Thomas is a very good run blocker, and that does matter for MSU. Bergen is fantastic, and Fontes is a better route runner than anybody MSU has. McCullouch is good, but he’s more athlete than WR IMO. It’s pretty close overall, I think. [UM's receivers are better. They block fairly well too.]

DL: Although Gubner is very good, Valdez is better. Gubner would probably start over Schmidt, but Schmidt is no slouch. There’s nobody else for UM that’s good enough to start on the line. Grebe is much better than any edge they have. [I disagree on Gubner. He is the best defensive player in the conference. Grebe is very good. UM still has 3 of its top 4 d-line out, or almost out., but the d-line is playing well. It has gained some depth over the season too.]

LB: Again, considering injury, I would probably take UM over MSU here. Danny U is as good as anybody they have, but he’s hurt. Askelson is very good, very physical, but a touch limited athletically. I really like Braxton Hill. Wilson is intriguing but streaky, Flink is just a guy. Nothing special at all imo. [UM's linebackers are considerably better. Wilson is not streaky. He's very good and very fast. Janacaro is good too. Flink has 7 tackles, 6 solo, against SS, and had a terrific game.]

DB’s: MSU wins here. Don’t think it’s particularly close either. [I disagree. I like UM's db's better.]

K: probably UM but I’ll be honest, I don’t even know who they have. [I liked your kicker earlier in the season. UM has 2 pretty good kickers, but not consistent. This one can be a push.]

P: MSU easy [I don't know who your punter is or how he's doing., so I won't debate this one.]

PR: This goes to Bergen [Bergen is the best in the conference.]

KR: draw [I don't know enough to debate this one.]

See my comments to your comments in brackets and bold. I think we made some progress.It was nice to have the discussion. I learned some things. Thx.

I don’t see the point in arguing on which players we like better, won’t get us anywhere.

In regards to pass protection, MSU has allowed 5 sacks on 165 attempts. That’s 1 sack for every 33 attempts. UM has allowed 25 sacks on 229 attempts. That’s 1 sack for every 9 attempts. MSU seems to be pass protecting just fine.

[Cataholic]

I find it interesting that no one has stepped up to provide support for the statements that the Cats have "significantly more talent" than the Griz. Just a bunch of bold and broad statements. The Cats may well be significantly more talented, but I don't know enough about the Cats to know. Anyone want to provide some explanation?

I have said all along that your 2 QB's are better, but McDowell is conference offensive player of week this week. Gillman is 3d in rushing in the conference, and is average almost 6 per carry. The UM linebackers are very good. Braxton Hill is playing at all conference level, and I think 2d in tackles in conference. Many say Gubner is the best defensive player in the conference. Bergen is good and dangerous. UM has some other good receivers. The UM o-line is coming back to life, even with Mayginness not playing in recent games. Yes, I know the Cat o-line is very good. I like the Cats' no. 10. Cats seem to have more injuries than UM.

Hmmm…. So here is the preseason all-conference team. Seems whoever puts the list together thought the Cats were better.

https://bigskyconf.com/news/2023/7/23/f ... n-qb1.aspx

And the list is missing both Tommy and Chambers who are clearly better than your guy. And one of the Montana guys on the list was labelled a quitter by Griz nation in the NAU game. Sunburst MT has a better TE than any on your roster right now. We are down to our 3rd TE and he is better than any of yours. We have guys at WR who played in the SEC and the Pac-12. Our RB stable is loaded but each guy has only played half of the games due to injuries. We had our 5th string RB in Elliott getting reps with multiple touchdowns and he would start at UM. Your argument is just stupid.

I am talking about now, not preseason. And something from Cat fans who would know their team better than those who pick preseason teams. Or are you saying your team has significantly more talent because of your preseason picks? Are they all healthy and playing now? UM no. 61 played great too games ago. Was dominant. Has some things going on now, especially family issues. The Griz running backs are better than the Cat running backs. That I know. Receivers? Who? Braxton Hill is playing at all-conference level. I don’t expect you to be able to respond with specifics. That’s okay. No big deal.

I didn’t really make an argument in the prior post, so don’t know what could have been stupid. Feel free to explain.

One of the reasons that nobody likes you is because nobody else could possibly make a valid point. You asked for something to support that the Cats have better personnel and I supplied it. Here is some more supporting information from the LAST time we played each other:

https://msubobcats.com/sports/football/ ... score/5930

Just checking, but which program has had more success getting guys to the pros? That seems to be a pretty good barometer of who has better dudes.

Maybe we can compare who has played deeper into the playoffs? Hmmm…. That seems to be in MSU’s favor as well.

Of course your arrogance will override any possible thoughts that the Cats could actually be better. Your arrogance will continue to try and convince Cat fans that the Gris are better on a Cat fan forum. I can’t wait for the game in two weeks though. It will dispel any thoughts of your team being better. Heck, you might not get by PSU.

[The Butcher]

I don’t see the point in arguing on which players we like better, won’t get us anywhere.

In regards to pass protection, MSU has allowed 5 sacks on 165 attempts. That’s 1 sack for every 33 attempts. UM has allowed 25 sacks on 229 attempts. That’s 1 sack for every 9 attempts. MSU seems to be pass protecting just fine.

That is a mic drop stat right there...

[Grizfan7]

I don’t see the point in arguing on which players we like better, won’t get us anywhere.

In regards to pass protection, MSU has allowed 5 sacks on 165 attempts. That’s 1 sack for every 33 attempts. UM has allowed 25 sacks on 229 attempts. That’s 1 sack for every 9 attempts. MSU seems to be pass protecting just fine.

That is a mic drop stat right there...

No, it is not a mic drop. Those stats are mostly irrelevant now.

UM's o-line played poorly early in the season. UM was playing Vidlak at QB, not McDowell. Since McDowell became the starter after the NAU loss, there have been far fewer sacks. McDowell is much better than Vidlak at avoiding sacks. He needs to learn to throw the ball away more, but I think he has such confidence in his running that he tries to pick up yards in too many tough situations. UM has given up 12 sacks in the last 5 games, I believe. Much better than 13 in 4 games. 2 sacks given up to Davis, Idaho and SS.

MSU gives up fewer sacks because they pass less, their QB's are more mobile (especially Mellott), and the QB's roll out and throw on the run more. MSU also has more element of surprise in their passes, because opponents are expecting the run. While I haven't seen enough Cat games, my impression is that opponents don't blitz MSU that often. (Let me know if I'm wrong on that.) MSU doesn't have fewer sacks because their o-lineman are better pass blockers, in my view. And, UM is a drop back passing team, so needs lineman who can protect in that situation. I am told that MSU's o-line, or most of them, are not, or would not be, good at protecting in a drop back passing scheme.

As I have said all along, I would take the UM o-line over the Cat line, because they are (or should be) better at protecting in drop back passing. They weren't good at hardly anything early in the season. They are much better now. That is not a knock on the Cat line. The Cat line doesn't have to be good at protecting in lots of drop back passing. The Cat line is good at what the Cats do, mainly the effective run game including plus 1 run game.

And, I don't see this discussion as arguing. It is an exchange of info and views, and things can be learned in discussions. I like the discussion.

[Grizfan7]

I find it interesting that no one has stepped up to provide support for the statements that the Cats have "significantly more talent" than the Griz. Just a bunch of bold and broad statements. The Cats may well be significantly more talented, but I don't know enough about the Cats to know. Anyone want to provide some explanation?

I have said all along that your 2 QB's are better, but McDowell is conference offensive player of week this week. Gillman is 3d in rushing in the conference, and is average almost 6 per carry. The UM linebackers are very good. Braxton Hill is playing at all conference level, and I think 2d in tackles in conference. Many say Gubner is the best defensive player in the conference. Bergen is good and dangerous. UM has some other good receivers. The UM o-line is coming back to life, even with Mayginness not playing in recent games. Yes, I know the Cat o-line is very good. I like the Cats' no. 10. Cats seem to have more injuries than UM.

Hmmm…. So here is the preseason all-conference team. Seems whoever puts the list together thought the Cats were better.

https://bigskyconf.com/news/2023/7/23/f ... n-qb1.aspx

And the list is missing both Tommy and Chambers who are clearly better than your guy. And one of the Montana guys on the list was labelled a quitter by Griz nation in the NAU game. Sunburst MT has a better TE than any on your roster right now. We are down to our 3rd TE and he is better than any of yours. We have guys at WR who played in the SEC and the Pac-12. Our RB stable is loaded but each guy has only played half of the games due to injuries. We had our 5th string RB in Elliott getting reps with multiple touchdowns and he would start at UM. Your argument is just stupid.

I am talking about now, not preseason. And something from Cat fans who would know their team better than those who pick preseason teams. Or are you saying your team has significantly more talent because of your preseason picks? Are they all healthy and playing now? UM no. 61 played great too games ago. Was dominant. Has some things going on now, especially family issues. The Griz running backs are better than the Cat running backs. That I know. Receivers? Who? Braxton Hill is playing at all-conference level. I don’t expect you to be able to respond with specifics. That’s okay. No big deal.

I didn’t really make an argument in the prior post, so don’t know what could have been stupid. Feel free to explain.

One of the reasons that nobody likes you is because nobody else could possibly make a valid point. You asked for something to support that the Cats have better personnel and I supplied it. Here is some more supporting information from the LAST time we played each other:

https://msubobcats.com/sports/football/ ... score/5930

Just checking, but which program has had more success getting guys to the pros? That seems to be a pretty good barometer of who has better dudes.

Maybe we can compare who has played deeper into the playoffs? Hmmm…. That seems to be in MSU’s favor as well.

Of course your arrogance will override any possible thoughts that the Cats could actually be better. Your arrogance will continue to try and convince Cat fans that the Gris are better on a Cat fan forum. I can’t wait for the game in two weeks though. It will dispel any thoughts of your team being better. Heck, you might not get by PSU.

I have said multiple times in these recent discussions that people have made good points, and that I've agreed with them.

I am talking about the two teams this season. Number of people in the pro's is not relevant to this season. Deeper playoff runs in the past is not very relevant either. Again, this year is what I'm discussing.

I was looking for specifics to support the statements that the Cats have significantly better players. Providing NFL stats and pre-season all conference picks doesn't do that. You need to name the players and groups and discuss, as one poster has done above. Progress was made in that post.

I have never said UM is better than the Cats. What are you talking about? I am not trying to convince Cat fans of anything. I am merely providing counterpoints to what some Cat posters are saying, and trying to learn more about the Cats. And have a discussion. I too can't wait for the game.

Regarding players on the active NFL rosters, the last I saw, there were 3 former Cats (including Anderson who is hurt), and 2 former Griz. Each time has some on the practice squads. Last thing I saw the Cats had one more on practice squads. Yes, in recent years, Cats had more players going to NFL. Again, that has nothing to do with the current teams.

[catatac]

I don’t see the point in arguing on which players we like better, won’t get us anywhere.

In regards to pass protection, MSU has allowed 5 sacks on 165 attempts. That’s 1 sack for every 33 attempts. UM has allowed 25 sacks on 229 attempts. That’s 1 sack for every 9 attempts. MSU seems to be pass protecting just fine.

That is a mic drop stat right there...

No, it is not a mic drop. Those stats are mostly irrelevant now.

UM's o-line played poorly early in the season. UM was playing Vidlak at QB, not McDowell. Since McDowell became the starter after the NAU loss, there have been far fewer sacks. McDowell is much better than Vidlak at avoiding sacks. He needs to learn to throw the ball away more, but I think he has such confidence in his running that he tries to pick up yards in too many tough situations. UM has given up 12 sacks in the last 5 games, I believe. Much better than 13 in 4 games. 2 sacks given up to Davis, Idaho and SS.

MSU gives up fewer sacks because they pass less, their QB's are more mobile (especially Mellott), and the QB's roll out and throw on the run more. MSU also has more element of surprise in their passes, because opponents are expecting the run. While I haven't seen enough Cat games, my impression is that opponents don't blitz MSU that often. (Let me know if I'm wrong on that.) MSU doesn't have fewer sacks because their o-lineman are better pass blockers, in my view. And, UM is a drop back passing team, so needs lineman who can protect in that situation. I am told that MSU's o-line, or most of them, are not, or would not be, good at protecting in a drop back passing scheme.

As I have said all along, I would take the UM o-line over the Cat line, because they are (or should be) better at protecting in drop back passing. They weren't good at hardly anything early in the season. They are much better now. That is not a knock on the Cat line. The Cat line doesn't have to be good at protecting in lots of drop back passing. The Cat line is good at what the Cats do, mainly the effective run game including plus 1 run game.

And, I don't see this discussion as arguing. It is an exchange of info and views, and things can be learned in discussions. I like the discussion.

Cat OL is very good at pass blocking, if they need to. As you point out, Cat O is primarily going to run the ball until a team shows they can slow that down. If a team can actually do that, the good thing about this version of the Cats is they have proven to be a very good passing team as well. Tommy obviously made huge strides in the passing game. It's MUCH better with Snell and Pickering in there but unfortunately they are both injured. Lonergan has stepped up and done well so we'll see. Really curious to see the offensive game plan for EWU this weekend. I'm guessing the Cats run all over them, maybe 400 yards.

[TomCat88]

I don’t see the point in arguing on which players we like better, won’t get us anywhere.

In regards to pass protection, MSU has allowed 5 sacks on 165 attempts. That’s 1 sack for every 33 attempts. UM has allowed 25 sacks on 229 attempts. That’s 1 sack for every 9 attempts. MSU seems to be pass protecting just fine.

That is a mic drop stat right there...

No, it is not a mic drop. Those stats are mostly irrelevant now.

UM's o-line played poorly early in the season. UM was playing Vidlak at QB, not McDowell. Since McDowell became the starter after the NAU loss, there have been far fewer sacks. McDowell is much better than Vidlak at avoiding sacks. He needs to learn to throw the ball away more, but I think he has such confidence in his running that he tries to pick up yards in too many tough situations. UM has given up 12 sacks in the last 5 games, I believe. Much better than 13 in 4 games. 2 sacks given up to Davis, Idaho and SS.

MSU gives up fewer sacks because they pass less, their QB's are more mobile (especially Mellott), and the QB's roll out and throw on the run more. MSU also has more element of surprise in their passes, because opponents are expecting the run. While I haven't seen enough Cat games, my impression is that opponents don't blitz MSU that often. (Let me know if I'm wrong on that.) MSU doesn't have fewer sacks because their o-lineman are better pass blockers, in my view. And, UM is a drop back passing team, so needs lineman who can protect in that situation. I am told that MSU's o-line, or most of them, are not, or would not be, good at protecting in a drop back passing scheme.

As I have said all along, I would take the UM o-line over the Cat line, because they are (or should be) better at protecting in drop back passing. They weren't good at hardly anything early in the season. They are much better now. That is not a knock on the Cat line. The Cat line doesn't have to be good at protecting in lots of drop back passing. The Cat line is good at what the Cats do, mainly the effective run game including plus 1 run game.

And, I don't see this discussion as arguing. It is an exchange of info and views, and things can be learned in discussions. I like the discussion.

Cat OL is very good at pass blocking, if they need to. As you point out, Cat O is primarily going to run the ball until a team shows they can slow that down. If a team can actually do that, the good thing about this version of the Cats is they have proven to be a very good passing team as well. Tommy obviously made huge strides in the passing game. It's MUCH better with Snell and Pickering in there but unfortunately they are both injured. Lonergan has stepped up and done well so we'll see. Really curious to see the offensive game plan for EWU this weekend. I'm guessing the Cats run all over them, maybe 400 yards.

It’s probably happened but I don’t recall MSU taking a sack on a straight drop into the pocket. MSU’s offensive and defensive lines will be the most physical UM has faced this year.

[tetoncat]

I don’t see the point in arguing on which players we like better, won’t get us anywhere.

In regards to pass protection, MSU has allowed 5 sacks on 165 attempts. That’s 1 sack for every 33 attempts. UM has allowed 25 sacks on 229 attempts. That’s 1 sack for every 9 attempts. MSU seems to be pass protecting just fine.

That is a mic drop stat right there...

No, it is not a mic drop. Those stats are mostly irrelevant now.

UM's o-line played poorly early in the season. UM was playing Vidlak at QB, not McDowell. Since McDowell became the starter after the NAU loss, there have been far fewer sacks. McDowell is much better than Vidlak at avoiding sacks. He needs to learn to throw the ball away more, but I think he has such confidence in his running that he tries to pick up yards in too many tough situations. UM has given up 12 sacks in the last 5 games, I believe. Much better than 13 in 4 games. 2 sacks given up to Davis, Idaho and SS.

MSU gives up fewer sacks because they pass less, their QB's are more mobile (especially Mellott), and the QB's roll out and throw on the run more. MSU also has more element of surprise in their passes, because opponents are expecting the run. While I haven't seen enough Cat games, my impression is that opponents don't blitz MSU that often. (Let me know if I'm wrong on that.) MSU doesn't have fewer sacks because their o-lineman are better pass blockers, in my view. And, UM is a drop back passing team, so needs lineman who can protect in that situation. I am told that MSU's o-line, or most of them, are not, or would not be, good at protecting in a drop back passing scheme.

As I have said all along, I would take the UM o-line over the Cat line, because they are (or should be) better at protecting in drop back passing. They weren't good at hardly anything early in the season. They are much better now. That is not a knock on the Cat line. The Cat line doesn't have to be good at protecting in lots of drop back passing. The Cat line is good at what the Cats do, mainly the effective run game including plus 1 run game.

And, I don't see this discussion as arguing. It is an exchange of info and views, and things can be learned in discussions. I like the discussion.

Cat OL is very good at pass blocking, if they need to. As you point out, Cat O is primarily going to run the ball until a team shows they can slow that down. If a team can actually do that, the good thing about this version of the Cats is they have proven to be a very good passing team as well. Tommy obviously made huge strides in the passing game. It's MUCH better with Snell and Pickering in there but unfortunately they are both injured. Lonergan has stepped up and done well so we'll see. Really curious to see the offensive game plan for EWU this weekend. I'm guessing the Cats run all over them, maybe 400 yards.

It’s probably happened but I don’t recall MSU taking a sack on a straight drop into the pocket. MSU’s offensive and defensive lines will be the most physical UM has faced this year.

Last drive vs Idaho.

[The Butcher]

I don’t see the point in arguing on which players we like better, won’t get us anywhere.

In regards to pass protection, MSU has allowed 5 sacks on 165 attempts. That’s 1 sack for every 33 attempts. UM has allowed 25 sacks on 229 attempts. That’s 1 sack for every 9 attempts. MSU seems to be pass protecting just fine.

That is a mic drop stat right there...

No, it is not a mic drop. Those stats are mostly irrelevant now.

UM's o-line played poorly early in the season. UM was playing Vidlak at QB, not McDowell. Since McDowell became the starter after the NAU loss, there have been far fewer sacks. McDowell is much better than Vidlak at avoiding sacks. He needs to learn to throw the ball away more, but I think he has such confidence in his running that he tries to pick up yards in too many tough situations. UM has given up 12 sacks in the last 5 games, I believe. Much better than 13 in 4 games. 2 sacks given up to Davis, Idaho and SS.

MSU gives up fewer sacks because they pass less, their QB's are more mobile (especially Mellott), and the QB's roll out and throw on the run more. MSU also has more element of surprise in their passes, because opponents are expecting the run. While I haven't seen enough Cat games, my impression is that opponents don't blitz MSU that often. (Let me know if I'm wrong on that.) MSU doesn't have fewer sacks because their o-lineman are better pass blockers, in my view. And, UM is a drop back passing team, so needs lineman who can protect in that situation. I am told that MSU's o-line, or most of them, are not, or would not be, good at protecting in a drop back passing scheme.

As I have said all along, I would take the UM o-line over the Cat line, because they are (or should be) better at protecting in drop back passing. They weren't good at hardly anything early in the season. They are much better now. That is not a knock on the Cat line. The Cat line doesn't have to be good at protecting in lots of drop back passing. The Cat line is good at what the Cats do, mainly the effective run game including plus 1 run game.

And, I don't see this discussion as arguing. It is an exchange of info and views, and things can be learned in discussions. I like the discussion.

Dude, we are talking 1 in 33. Make all the excuses you want, but 1 in 33 is a mic drop when comparing 1 in 9. The last 5 games you tout as much better still has given up more sacks than the Cats have in 9 games and is at a clip of 1 in 10. That isn't exactly a huge improvement.

[coloradocat]

I’ll bite.

QB: Clearly MSU has the advantage here. Both QB’s are better than McDowell. [I will give you that. Especially Mellott.]

RB: I think Julius Davis is better than Gilman, although I do like Gilman. Davis is more complete, runs more physical, less boom/bust. Gilman more explosive. I’m not that impressed with Ostmo. White is better than Ostmo, I think White and Gilman are pretty similar impact wise. White has made some tremendous downfield catches that RB’s typically don’t make. [I will take both Gillman and Ostmo over any of the Cat backs.]

TE: Even with the injuries, MSU is ahead here. Grossman would start for MSU if healthy though. Snell is more versatile, impacts their offense more. [You can have this one. Is Snell healthy? I don't know enough to judge.}

OL: Although UM’s is playing better, MSU’s is still clearly better. I wouldn’t trade a single one. [UM's o-line is coming along. Their pass protection is getting back to where it should have been all season. Note the UM no. 55 was picked earlier in the season to be the first Big Sky player drafted. He's finally coming alive. I don't think your o-line could protect our QB's. You can have this one too.]

WR: As currently constructed, I’d take UM’s WR’s over MSU’s in terms of being good receivers. Clevan Thomas is a very good run blocker, and that does matter for MSU. Bergen is fantastic, and Fontes is a better route runner than anybody MSU has. McCullouch is good, but he’s more athlete than WR IMO. It’s pretty close overall, I think. [UM's receivers are better. They block fairly well too.]

DL: Although Gubner is very good, Valdez is better. Gubner would probably start over Schmidt, but Schmidt is no slouch. There’s nobody else for UM that’s good enough to start on the line. Grebe is much better than any edge they have. [I disagree on Gubner. He is the best defensive player in the conference. Grebe is very good. UM still has 3 of its top 4 d-line out, or almost out., but the d-line is playing well. It has gained some depth over the season too.]

LB: Again, considering injury, I would probably take UM over MSU here. Danny U is as good as anybody they have, but he’s hurt. Askelson is very good, very physical, but a touch limited athletically. I really like Braxton Hill. Wilson is intriguing but streaky, Flink is just a guy. Nothing special at all imo. [UM's linebackers are considerably better. Wilson is not streaky. He's very good and very fast. Janacaro is good too. Flink has 7 tackles, 6 solo, against SS, and had a terrific game.]

DB’s: MSU wins here. Don’t think it’s particularly close either. [I disagree. I like UM's db's better.]

K: probably UM but I’ll be honest, I don’t even know who they have. [I liked your kicker earlier in the season. UM has 2 pretty good kickers, but not consistent. This one can be a push.]

P: MSU easy [I don't know who your punter is or how he's doing., so I won't debate this one.]

PR: This goes to Bergen [Bergen is the best in the conference.]

KR: draw [I don't know enough to debate this one.]

See my comments to your comments in brackets and bold. I think we made some progress.It was nice to have the discussion. I learned some things. Thx.

Most of us don't take you seriously and wonder why you're even here but if you want any respect at all maybe make a decision: decide if you're going to claim you don't know anything about the Bobcats' players and ask for information from people that have watched both teams or act like you know what you're talking about and just like the griz better. Your responses make it obvious you don't know anything so maybe just stick with that.

[nanacat]

I’ll bite.

QB: Clearly MSU has the advantage here. Both QB’s are better than McDowell. [I will give you that. Especially Mellott.]

RB: I think Julius Davis is better than Gilman, although I do like Gilman. Davis is more complete, runs more physical, less boom/bust. Gilman more explosive. I’m not that impressed with Ostmo. White is better than Ostmo, I think White and Gilman are pretty similar impact wise. White has made some tremendous downfield catches that RB’s typically don’t make. [I will take both Gillman and Ostmo over any of the Cat backs.]

TE: Even with the injuries, MSU is ahead here. Grossman would start for MSU if healthy though. Snell is more versatile, impacts their offense more. [You can have this one. Is Snell healthy? I don't know enough to judge.}

OL: Although UM’s is playing better, MSU’s is still clearly better. I wouldn’t trade a single one. [UM's o-line is coming along. Their pass protection is getting back to where it should have been all season. Note the UM no. 55 was picked earlier in the season to be the first Big Sky player drafted. He's finally coming alive. I don't think your o-line could protect our QB's. You can have this one too.]

WR: As currently constructed, I’d take UM’s WR’s over MSU’s in terms of being good receivers. Clevan Thomas is a very good run blocker, and that does matter for MSU. Bergen is fantastic, and Fontes is a better route runner than anybody MSU has. McCullouch is good, but he’s more athlete than WR IMO. It’s pretty close overall, I think. [UM's receivers are better. They block fairly well too.]

DL: Although Gubner is very good, Valdez is better. Gubner would probably start over Schmidt, but Schmidt is no slouch. There’s nobody else for UM that’s good enough to start on the line. Grebe is much better than any edge they have. [I disagree on Gubner. He is the best defensive player in the conference. Grebe is very good. UM still has 3 of its top 4 d-line out, or almost out., but the d-line is playing well. It has gained some depth over the season too.]

LB: Again, considering injury, I would probably take UM over MSU here. Danny U is as good as anybody they have, but he’s hurt. Askelson is very good, very physical, but a touch limited athletically. I really like Braxton Hill. Wilson is intriguing but streaky, Flink is just a guy. Nothing special at all imo. [UM's linebackers are considerably better. Wilson is not streaky. He's very good and very fast. Janacaro is good too. Flink has 7 tackles, 6 solo, against SS, and had a terrific game.]

DB’s: MSU wins here. Don’t think it’s particularly close either. [I disagree. I like UM's db's better.]

K: probably UM but I’ll be honest, I don’t even know who they have. [I liked your kicker earlier in the season. UM has 2 pretty good kickers, but not consistent. This one can be a push.]

P: MSU easy [I don't know who your punter is or how he's doing., so I won't debate this one.]

PR: This goes to Bergen [Bergen is the best in the conference.]

KR: draw [I don't know enough to debate this one.]

See my comments to your comments in brackets and bold. I think we made some progress.It was nice to have the discussion. I learned some things. Thx.

Most of us don't take you seriously and wonder why you're even here but if you want any respect at all maybe make a decision: decide if you're going to claim you don't know anything about the Bobcats' players and ask for information from people that have watched both teams or act like you know what you're talking about and just like the griz better. Your responses make it obvious you don't know anything so maybe just stick with that.