The Bobcat Nation

The University of Washington is rolling out plans to remodel and update Husky Stadium. Seating capacity is approximately 76,000. The current estimated renovation cost is a mere $300,000,000!! They are going to the State Legislature for the first $150,000,000. The other half will be picked up via "fundraisers". The mood seems to be this will fly. The State will pick it up by increasing taxes on hotels, car rentals and restaurants. Such taxes are already paying for Safeco Field (Mariners), Qwest Stadium (Seahawks) and the remaining debt on the emploded Kingdome.
This flys in the face of the new Sconic ownership who are demanding a new facility for their basketball team or they are taking their ball to Oklahoma City, Las Vegas or somewhere else.

Hence the reason for a Montana state sales tax. Like WY, each county on their own. Just think what a .005 or .01 cent (on top of 3-5%) would do for Bozeman (or any other "major" Montana city). Update our cities w/ the help of tourists. Wow, sounds too easy.

Billings_Griz wrote:Hence the reason for a Montana state sales tax. Like WY, each county on their own. Just think what a .005 or .01 cent (on top of 3-5%) would do for Bozeman (or any other "major" Montana city). Update our cities w/ the help of tourists. Wow, sounds too easy.

It would be great, wouldn't it? It's a whole lot better approach than having to rely on voting on property tax levies for everything.

San Francisco raises billions each year from tourists alone. Unforunately, the city doesn't really spend the money all that wisely. But without a sales tax, all of that unwise spending would be coming out of our pockets, instead, and that would suck.

Billings_Griz wrote:Hence the reason for a Montana state sales tax. Like WY, each county on their own. Just think what a .005 or .01 cent (on top of 3-5%) would do for Bozeman (or any other "major" Montana city). Update our cities w/ the help of tourists. Wow, sounds too easy. :roll:

a .001 sales tax increase will punch King County's (Seattle, Bellevue, Kirkland, Redmond, Renton, Issaquah, etc.) to right near 9%. Our gasoline tax is one of the highest in the nation. BUT, Washington has no personal income tax.

raincat wrote:

Billings_Griz wrote:Hence the reason for a Montana state sales tax. Like WY, each county on their own. Just think what a .005 or .01 cent (on top of 3-5%) would do for Bozeman (or any other "major" Montana city). Update our cities w/ the help of tourists. Wow, sounds too easy.

a .001 sales tax increase will punch King County's (Seattle, Bellevue, Kirkland, Redmond, Renton, Issaquah, etc.) to right near 9%. Our gasoline tax is one of the highest in the nation. BUT, Washington has no personal income tax.

I would trade a 4% sales tax for elimination of the state income tax.

I don't remember the figures, but my recollection from previous legislative proposals is that a 4% sales tax would bring in more money than our current MT income tax (albeit not by much). But of course the devil is in the details, and that proposal I am trying to recall included a 4% tax on sale of home, sale of car....everything except food, medicine, and newspapers/magazines (you can guess why that was not included).

I'm sure someone's memory on the details is better than mine. But conceptually I'm in favor of it.

It would be really strange for a sales tax to apply to real property. I could look it up, but without doing so, I would guess that no state in the country does that.

Cars, etc., yeah.

Bay Area Cat wrote:It would be really strange for a sales tax to apply to real property. I could look it up, but without doing so, I would guess that no state in the country does that.

Cars, etc., yeah.

There are many jurisdictions that have realty transfer taxes....some are flat dollar values, but may are based on a percentage of the acquisition value.
But semantically, there may not be many jurisdictions that call it a sales tax.

Sales taxes suck. So do property taxes. Income taxes are by far the best taxation method (which, admittedly, is a little like saying someone is the "best" axe murder).

GrizinWashington wrote:Sales taxes suck. So do property taxes. Income taxes are by far the best taxation method (which, admittedly, is a little like saying someone is the "best" axe murder).

Sales tax is better for consumers, but not businesses and State Revenue Depts...way more paperwork and headaches for the latter. Not to mention the beauracracy. Sales tax is orders of magnitude better than income taxes for the consumer, because you have total control of your spending.

There is a lot of paperwork (monthly or quarterly filings from each business, although now that they are moving to e-filing it will get a little better), but the process is actually really simple. The companies self-report, the government cashes the checks, and then they periodically audit the businesses. And unlike corporate income taxes, sales tax revenue is relatively predictable. Companies can get to zero income taxes really easily, but even in a depression, you'd still have most of your sales tax revenue intact.

HelenaCat95 wrote:

Bay Area Cat wrote:It would be really strange for a sales tax to apply to real property. I could look it up, but without doing so, I would guess that no state in the country does that.

Cars, etc., yeah.

There are many jurisdictions that have realty transfer taxes....some are flat dollar values, but may are based on a percentage of the acquisition value.
But semantically, there may not be many jurisdictions that call it a sales tax.

NY City sales (transfer) tax I believe is 2.5%. So a $750,000 home would be taxed $18,750. Maybe Grizlaw could give a little better insight as he is a NY City resident.

NYC wouldn't surprise me at all ... they even have a special tax on commerical rent. We pay ten of thousands of dollars a year to NYC on the rent we pay for two small offices in Manhattan.

They also have a separate city income tax. Not a cheap place to do business, but it's too prosperous of a market to ignore.

Bay Area Cat wrote:NYC wouldn't surprise me at all ... they even have a special tax on commerical rent. We pay ten of thousands of dollars a year to NYC on the rent we pay for two small offices in Manhattan.

They also have a separate city income tax. Not a cheap place to do business, but it's too prosperous of a market to ignore.

I am pretty sure NJ also has a sale (transfer tax) on real estate. I may only apply to home over a certain threshold. It may be $500,000.

Bleedinbluengold wrote:

GrizinWashington wrote:Sales taxes suck. So do property taxes. Income taxes are by far the best taxation method (which, admittedly, is a little like saying someone is the "best" axe murder).

Sales tax is better for consumers, but not businesses and State Revenue Depts...way more paperwork and headaches for the latter. Not to mention the beauracracy. Sales tax is orders of magnitude better than income taxes for the consumer, because you have total control of your spending.

Perhaps, but certainly not at the lower-levels of income, where the vast majority of their income is spent on necessities. Even excluding food, sales taxes are completely regressive, hitting lower-income citizens far worse than upper class members.

I like sales taxes a lot more than income taxes. The idea of taxing someone for what they consume as opposed to what they earn seems like a better way of going about it. I'd support a sales in MT (if I ever live there again) if they'd drop the state income tax.

You don't see too many states going exclusively with one tax system or another, and I think there is probably a non-cynical reason (beyond the knee-jerk "They want to tax us more") for this.

As discussed, a sales tax is much more regressive than an income tax. Poor people pay a much higher portion of their wealth in taxes in that system as compared to an income tax. Therefore, if you fund your state with a sales tax and no income tax, you end up with a very bottom heavy tax burden.

Likewise, if a state has only an income tax and no sales tax, it is way top heavy with its tax burden, and it also places extreme limits on local governments to control their own taxing philosophy (basically they can only generate local tax revenues through property taxes, which focuses the tax burden on a relatively narrow tax base and allows for a disconnect between the people who vote to raise taxes and the people who actually end up paying those taxes).

I think this is why you see most states using both a sales tax and an income tax. Both have their benefits and both complement each other in a lot of ways in terms of making sure everybody pays at least some and one group doesn't have to bear a huge portion of the overall tax burden.

If Montana wants a whole lot more rich out-of-staters to move, though, they should definitely get rid of the income tax in favor only have a sales tax. Those are the people who would benefit most from that kind of tax structure. Right now, many move to Florida instead (like so many pro athletes -- it's a great place to shield your income from tax). Then they just order all of their expensive toys from online stores that have no presence in their state to avoid paying sales tax, ignore the state laws that require you to declare use tax on those items, and they have avoided paying much tax at all!

The this tax instead of the other tax bickering is a non-point seeing as governments will never get rid of a tax all together. It just doesn't happen. We need to live with the tax system we have.

Anyone who wants to take this up a notch and look at a much more provocative angle, go to Seattlepi.com, find sports writer Art Thiel's column and post it here.
Should generate some interest.

orsalak wrote:The this tax instead of the other tax bickering is a non-point seeing as governments will never get rid of a tax all together. It just doesn't happen. We need to live with the tax system we have.

Yep, I agree. I like paying the exact amount for things instead of 6,7 or 8 cents on the dollar for sales tax. An income tax would be the way to go to follow in the footsteps of UW

TIrwin24 wrote:

orsalak wrote:The this tax instead of the other tax bickering is a non-point seeing as governments will never get rid of a tax all together. It just doesn't happen. We need to live with the tax system we have.

Yep, I agree. I like paying the exact amount for things instead of 6,7 or 8 cents on the dollar for sales tax. An income tax would be the way to go to follow in the footsteps of UW

Except that it's impossible to have an income tax for a local project (as it's only administered at the state level), and that an income tax only taxes the local people as opposed to taxing everyone who passes through the area.

But from my perspective, it would be great. Why don't you people in MT figure out a way to jack up your own income taxes locally, and then I will just come in periodically and use the facilities and local infrastructure without paying a cent for it. That would be awesome.