The Bobcat Nation

The news here this morning is that the tribe meeting was unanimous against working with UND.

They will submit a recomendation to change the name to UND Roughriders. That's a really great suggestion, Teddy spent a lot of time in ND. The area around Medora is the Roosevelt Nat'l Grasslands.

What is the problem with that name? Correct me if I am wrong, do Indians find the name insulting or just the fact that a team is using any Indian name.

The news clips they showed, they are equating it with ",."

What if they called them the Rainbow Sioux? Or, the Happy-Go-Lucky Sioux? Or, the Peaceful-Resistant Sioux. Or, the Politically-Correct-But-Don't-Let-Our-Passive-Nature-Fool-You Sioux.

Here's a good one. The Fighting White Guys Who Kicked the Fighting Sioux's A$$.



Well - there's my redneck post for the year.......oops...did I say redneck?

Bleedinbluengold wrote:What if they called them the Rainbow Sioux? Or, the Happy-Go-Lucky Sioux? Or, the Peaceful-Resistant Sioux. Or, the Politically-Correct-But-Don't-Let-Our-Passive-Nature-Fool-You Sioux.

Here's a good one. The Fighting White Guys Who Kicked the Fighting Sioux's A$$.



Well - there's my redneck post for the year.......oops...did I say redneck?

Being a native Montanan, I take offense at the term "redneck."

Old Skool Cat wrote:

Bleedinbluengold wrote:What if they called them the Rainbow Sioux? Or, the Happy-Go-Lucky Sioux? Or, the Peaceful-Resistant Sioux. Or, the Politically-Correct-But-Don't-Let-Our-Passive-Nature-Fool-You Sioux.

Here's a good one. The Fighting White Guys Who Kicked the Fighting Sioux's A$$.



Well - there's my redneck post for the year.......oops...did I say redneck?

Being a native Montanan, I take offense at the term "redneck." [/quote

does this mean i can take offense to the term "padre" since i am roman catholic.

or better yet..."fighting irish" since i have ancestors from ireland...

Old Skool Cat wrote:

Bleedinbluengold wrote:What if they called them the Rainbow Sioux? Or, the Happy-Go-Lucky Sioux? Or, the Peaceful-Resistant Sioux. Or, the Politically-Correct-But-Don't-Let-Our-Passive-Nature-Fool-You Sioux.

Here's a good one. The Fighting White Guys Who Kicked the Fighting Sioux's A$$.



Well - there's my redneck post for the year.......oops...did I say redneck?

Being a native Montanan, I take offense at the term "redneck."

Sorry...I meant Fighting Redneck.

Bleedinbluengold wrote:What if they called them the Rainbow Sioux? Or, the Happy-Go-Lucky Sioux? Or, the Peaceful-Resistant Sioux. Or, the Politically-Correct-But-Don't-Let-Our-Passive-Nature-Fool-You Sioux.

Here's a good one. The Fighting White Guys Who Kicked the Fighting Sioux's A$$.



Well - there's my redneck post for the year.......oops...did I say redneck?

How about "The Fighting Sue's"

I bet Ralph Englestad is turning in his grave. One of the stipulations for that big beautiful hockey arena was UND couldn't change their nickname. I believe there are headfeathers on every arm rest (or seat, maybe) in that place. It's nicer than some pro arena's.

I'm offended by Rough Riders...nothing spews American imperialism like Rough Riders. It's not who we are - that was 100+ years ago.

The kicker is that there were some fighting Native Americans in Roosevelt's regiment.

If you think about, just about every mascot is offensive to someone.

Billings_Griz wrote:I bet Ralph Englestad is turning in his grave. One of the stipulations for that big beautiful hockey arena was UND couldn't change their nickname. I believe there are headfeathers on every arm rest (or seat, maybe) in that place. It's nicer than some pro arena's.

I'm sure Ralphie is okay ... he's in the afterlife with his hero Adolph Hitler now.

Bleedinbluengold wrote:I'm offended by Rough Riders...nothing spews American imperialism like Rough Riders. It's not who we are - that was 100+ years ago.

The kicker is that there were some fighting Native Americans in Roosevelt's regiment.

If you think about, just about every mascot is offensive to someone.

Not to open this can of worms again ... but I think people have to be missing the context of this issue in a big way to use the term "we" in reference to the Rough Riders in the same way that the tribes are using "we" to describe the name of their tribe.

In short ... "we" are not Rough Riders. They ARE Sioux.

Billings_Griz wrote:I bet Ralph Englestad is turning in his grave. One of the stipulations for that big beautiful hockey arena was UND couldn't change their nickname. I believe there are headfeathers on every arm rest (or seat, maybe) in that place. It's nicer than some pro arena's.

The emblems are on each and every post. And some of the more $$ seats. They are everywhere! It's a phenomenal stadium. I do believe he has a stipulation that they lose the stadium if they change their name.

I know this isn't PC, but reading that article all I could think was the tribes 100 years ago were in a much better place than they are now. Remembering their heritage seems like a good thing to me.

ChiOCat wrote:

Billings_Griz wrote:I bet Ralph Englestad is turning in his grave. One of the stipulations for that big beautiful hockey arena was UND couldn't change their nickname. I believe there are headfeathers on every arm rest (or seat, maybe) in that place. It's nicer than some pro arena's.

The emblems are on each and every post. And some of the more $$ seats. They are everywhere! It's a phenomenal stadium. I do believe he has a stipulation that they lose the stadium if they change their name.

I know this isn't PC, but reading that article all I could think was the tribes 100 years ago were in a much better place than they are now. Remembering their heritage seems like a good thing to me.

The stadium isn't owned by the University (per what I read), it is owned by Ralph's family and is leased to the school, so if the school does something that might offend the rich old Nazi-lover, the school might lose their lease.

Not a great position for the school to be in, certainly. But that's the kind of bargain you strike when you accept huge gifts from a guy of highly questionable character.

As to their "heritage" ... I suspect that a sports marketing mascot for a school ran by non-Sioux folks is probably not the best representation or custodian of the Sioux tribe's heritage by a long shot. They certainly do remember their heritage, but it is probably best to let them maintain their heritage instead of assuming that this mascot in any way accurately reflects their heritage.

Bay Area Cat wrote:

ChiOCat wrote:

Billings_Griz wrote:I bet Ralph Englestad is turning in his grave. One of the stipulations for that big beautiful hockey arena was UND couldn't change their nickname. I believe there are headfeathers on every arm rest (or seat, maybe) in that place. It's nicer than some pro arena's.

The emblems are on each and every post. And some of the more $$ seats. They are everywhere! It's a phenomenal stadium. I do believe he has a stipulation that they lose the stadium if they change their name.

I know this isn't PC, but reading that article all I could think was the tribes 100 years ago were in a much better place than they are now. Remembering their heritage seems like a good thing to me.

The stadium isn't owned by the University (per what I read), it is owned by Ralph's family and is leased to the school, so if the school does something that might offend the rich old Nazi-lover, the school might lose their lease.

Not a great position for the school to be in, certainly. But that's the kind of bargain you strike when you accept huge gifts from a guy of highly questionable character.

As to their "heritage" ... I suspect that a sports marketing mascot for a school ran by non-Sioux folks is probably not the best representation or custodian of the Sioux tribe's heritage by a long shot. They certainly do remember their heritage, but it is probably best to let them maintain their heritage instead of assuming that this mascot in any way accurately reflects their heritage.

Explain to me, again, why a mascot has anything to do with cultural heritage?

Bleedinbluengold wrote: Explain to me, again, why a mascot has anything to do with cultural heritage?

It shouldn't. That's the point these people are making.

But when a sports mascot of a school not run by the Sioux is representing the culture and face of that ethnic group for marketing purposes, it does quite obviously put out false impressions of that culture, and skews the perceptions of that group's heritage.

Granted, it's easy to dismiss this concept when it's not a culture we have any vested interest in ... that allows us to make jokes about it. But if this was a situation where some non-Montanans (let's say they were Californians) were using an image of "Montanans" (something we all actually DO care about) in ways that we didn't think were accurate or respectful to market their products, I suspect that we'd suddenly see things a bit differently.

Criminy, people were bitching and moaning about a guy using "The Last Best Place" as a trademark ... yet many of those same people probably make jokes about the Sioux not wanting their cultural identity used as a sports mascot (marketing tool).

Bay Area Cat wrote:

Bleedinbluengold wrote: Explain to me, again, why a mascot has anything to do with cultural heritage?

It shouldn't. That's the point these people are making. It doesn't...that is the point. UND markets the Fighting Sioux as their university mascot, which is representative of their university. They don't market the mascot as being representative of Sioux culture.

But when a sports mascot of a school not run by the Sioux is representing the culture and face of that ethnic group for marketing purposes, it does quite obviously put out false impressions of that culture, and skews the perceptions of that group's heritage. I disagree. The mascot represents absolutely nothing about Sioux heritage.

Granted, it's easy to dismiss this concept when it's not a culture we have any vested interest in ... that allows us to make jokes about it. But if this was a situation where some non-Montanans (let's say they were Californians) were using an image of "Montanans" (something we all actually DO care about) in ways that we didn't think were accurate or respectful to market their products, I suspect that we'd suddenly see things a bit differently. I would suggest to you that most native Montanans could not care less about what anyone else thinks of Montana or we, who live here. A few years back, one of the Big 3 car companies marketed an SUV called Montana - it didn't sell...who gave a crap? Nobody.

Criminy, people were bitching and moaning about a guy using "The Last Best Place" as a trademark ... yet many of those same people probably make jokes about the Sioux not wanting their cultural identity used as a sports mascot (marketing tool). The bitch was that The Last Best Place should not be reserved for one guy. It should be reserved for every Montanan. So, are you saying that Fighting Sioux should be reserved for the Sioux only?

I just inserted my comments within your text and bolded 'em.

EDIT: I would also add that if somebody really thinks that a mascot accurately depicts the real entity, to which the mascot refers, then that somebody is just plain dumb. Smart people, regardless of race, can put mascots and real cultural issues into proper perspective.

Bleedinbluengold wrote:I disagree. The mascot represents absolutely nothing about Sioux heritage.

That's a really hard position to defend, given that they call themselves the "Fighting Sioux."

Exactly what does Sioux represent in that Indian mascot, if not the group of people whose culture and heritage is defined by the name "Sioux?"

And I'm not sure you're getting it ... we're not talking about a car named the Sioux ... we're talking about a sports mascot that embodies a lot more than just a simple name. We're talking about an image that encompasses a lot of suggestions about the people themselves.

How about if there was a TV show called "Montana" in which all of the characters are supposedly located in Montana and are all inbred bigots and bumbling morons ... and they really like to get into bar fights and are really tough? Now let's assume that this is a PBS show, and receives federal funding in its production. Would you give a crap in that scenario?

Or, rather, would it be no big deal ... and would you joke about any Montanans who did take offense to it? Or maybe we would say that it is actually "honoring" Montanans, because it shows that Montanans are good at bar fights?

um... the UND mascot is not the "Drunken Lysol Huffing Lazy Souix".

I think they (UND) have always treated their mascot honorably and respectfully.... as well as the people.