MSU Billings

raincat · Post by **raincat** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:56 pm

Question-Why did Eastern...MSU Billings drop football? Years ago when Boise State went from a JC to a four year school and began growing their football program, I feared if Eastern Montana headed that way it could take it's toll on MSU..Bozeman, as BSU has done to both UI and ISU.

mslacat · Post by **mslacat** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:02 pm

raincat wrote:Question-Why did Eastern...MSU Billings drop football? Years ago when Boise State went from a JC to a four year school and began growing their football program, I feared if Eastern Montana headed that way it could take it's toll on MSU..Bozeman, as BSU has done to both UI and ISU.

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Cat-theotherwhitemeat · Post by **Cat-theotherwhitemeat** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:18 pm

raincat wrote:Question-Why did Eastern...MSU Billings drop football? Years ago when Boise State went from a JC to a four year school and began growing their football program, I feared if Eastern Montana headed that way it could take it's toll on MSU..Bozeman, as BSU has done to both UI and ISU.

When I worked at McMullen (SP?) hall I actually asked Sexton that very question (along with some others). His answer: "When we joined/created the PacWest conference, it was a no-football conference and they didn't want to be an independent." He never mentioned money as being a factor.

I also asked him why, when they changed the name from Eastern to MSU-Billings, didn't they just make it Eastern Montana State University (EMSU), thus making the alumni from EMC happy? His response: "Well, because Billings isn't really considered on the eastern side of the state. The look on my face....

You don't want to get me started on football back at MSU-Billings. I'll talk your ear off. I've even planned the football stadium in my head, what it would look like, and where it would go.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:19 pm

It's kind of amazing that Montana (a state with a population less than that of most major cities) has seven four year schools with football programs already ... an eighth would just be that much harder to maintain.

Cat-theotherwhitemeat · Post by **Cat-theotherwhitemeat** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:19 pm

Side note: I believe the new conference that MSU-Billings just joined has football, but it's not mandatory for joining.

raincat · Post by **raincat** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:36 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:It's kind of amazing that Montana (a state with a population less than that of most major cities) has seven four year schools with football programs already ... an eighth would just be that much harder to maintain.

I agree with that, but digging a bit deeper, with Billings the biggest city in the State; and a very good sports town, it strikes me that Dillion and Havre are still out there and Billings opted out. Butte and Helena make sense. Billings would, at a minimum, be a perfect fit with the few other Division II football teams in the region; Central Washington (9,100 students) Western Washington (12,400 students), the Dakotas (of similar size) and Dixie State. Humbolt State will be rejoining the Great NW Conference next year also.
Anyway, just a pie-in-the-sky observation.

raincat · Post by **raincat** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:40 pm

Cat-theotherwhitemeat wrote:
raincat wrote:Question-Why did Eastern...MSU Billings drop football? Years ago when Boise State went from a JC to a four year school and began growing their football program, I feared if Eastern Montana headed that way it could take it's toll on MSU..Bozeman, as BSU has done to both UI and ISU.
When I worked at McMullen (SP?) hall I actually asked Sexton that very question (along with some others). His answer: "When we joined/created the PacWest conference, it was a no-football conference and they didn't want to be an independent." He never mentioned money as being a factor.

I also asked him why, when they changed the name from Eastern to MSU-Billings, didn't they just make it Eastern Montana State University (EMSU), thus making the alumni from EMC happy? His response: "Well, because Billings isn't really considered on the eastern side of the state. The look on my face.... :shock:

You don't want to get me started on football back at MSU-Billings. I'll talk your ear off. I've even planned the football stadium in my head, what it would look like, and where it would go.

I was thinking "Billings State University".

GrizinWashington · Post by **GrizinWashington** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:00 am

It's ridiculous that Montana has as many 4-year universities as it has. IMO it should have 3 at most: UM, MSU, and Eastern.

Cat in NC · Post by **Cat in NC** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:28 am

GrizinWashington wrote:It's ridiculous that Montana has as many 4-year universities as it has. IMO it should have 3 at most: UM, MSU, and Eastern.

I'm sure that the students in the 12 undergraduate engineering programs (MSU has ten) and the 14 masters engineering programs (MSU has eight) at Tech and the students who believe in a Catholic education at Carroll would be thrilled to hear that...

BelgradeBobcat · Post by **BelgradeBobcat** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:02 pm

I always though MSU-B should be known as "Billings State". It works for Boise State.

And why not concentrate on other sports besides football? How about D-1 baseball/softball, or hockey, or men's and women's soccer. A D-1 wrestling program might do well too.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:12 pm

Cat in NC wrote:
GrizinWashington wrote:It's ridiculous that Montana has as many 4-year universities as it has. IMO it should have 3 at most: UM, MSU, and Eastern.
I'm sure that the students in the 12 undergraduate engineering programs (MSU has ten) and the 14 masters engineering programs (MSU has eight) at Tech and the students who believe in a Catholic education at Carroll would be thrilled to hear that...

I doubt he was commenting on private schools. At least, I always tend to disregard them when these topics come up since they aren't being funded by the state.

I totally agree with him that MT has waaaayyyyy too many 4 year public schools.

Northern and Western should definitely be converted in the JCs or eliminated, for starters. Tech has solid programs, but it is silly that a state the size of MT has this much redundancy in engineering programs, so it would probably make sense to merge Tech and MSU. Eastern makes sense to have because of the population base of Billings as its role as a commuter school for so many people. And it could serve as the school that people went to if they could get into MSU or UM (a concept that really doesn't exist in the system right now because all of the schools take pretty much anybody, which isn't necessarily great for academic reputation).

For a state with less than a million people to have six different public 4 year schools has got to be incredibly expensive.

I think Wyoming's system is perfect, actually (a bunch of JCs that feed into one University), but UM would probably get upset if I forced them to be a JC when I assumed the role of King of Montana.

Cat-theotherwhitemeat · Post by **Cat-theotherwhitemeat** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:21 pm

BelgradeBobcat wrote:I always though MSU-B should be known as "Billings State". It works for Boise State.

And why not concentrate on other sports besides football? How about D-1 baseball/softball, or hockey, or men's and women's soccer. A D-1 wrestling program might do well too.

I agree, even if they didn't get football, having a D-1 in Billings makes sense. I would actually start going to my alma mater's games.

GrizinWashington · Post by **GrizinWashington** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:43 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:
Cat in NC wrote:
GrizinWashington wrote:It's ridiculous that Montana has as many 4-year universities as it has. IMO it should have 3 at most: UM, MSU, and Eastern.
I'm sure that the students in the 12 undergraduate engineering programs (MSU has ten) and the 14 masters engineering programs (MSU has eight) at Tech and the students who believe in a Catholic education at Carroll would be thrilled to hear that...
I doubt he was commenting on private schools. At least, I always tend to disregard them when these topics come up since they aren't being funded by the state.

I totally agree with him that MT has waaaayyyyy too many 4 year public schools.

Northern and Western should definitely be converted in the JCs or eliminated, for starters. Tech has solid programs, but it is silly that a state the size of MT has this much redundancy in engineering programs, so it would probably make sense to merge Tech and MSU. Eastern makes sense to have because of the population base of Billings as its role as a commuter school for so many people. And it could serve as the school that people went to if they could get into MSU or UM (a concept that really doesn't exist in the system right now because all of the schools take pretty much anybody, which isn't necessarily great for academic reputation).

For a state with less than a million people to have six different public 4 year schools has got to be incredibly expensive.

I think Wyoming's system is perfect, actually (a bunch of JCs that feed into one University), but UM would probably get upset if I forced them to be a JC when I assumed the role of King of Montana.

BAC is dead-on accurate. I was only referring to state-supported institutions. And he's made my point perfectly: The redundancy in programs is assisine, and the state of Montana can't afford it. We have so many schools for one reason and one reason only: Politics. Make Western and Tech 2-year programs. Consider doing the same with MSU-Billings, actually. 80 years ago when travel was much more difficult, some of these schools made some sense. Now, there just political beach balls which cost the state a fortune. Montana has more state-supported colleges than Washington does. Where's the sense in that?

Post by **SonomaCat** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:50 pm

Wow ... more than Washington? That's telling.

Doing a comparison of MT to CA:

MT - one four year college per 157,000 residents
CA - one four year college per 1,104,757 residents.

Cat-theotherwhitemeat · Post by **Cat-theotherwhitemeat** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:18 pm

The people in those towns which you want to rid them of their college would love you.

GriznWashington, I don't think I'd agree with taking away the 4 year school from the largest city in Montana. I believe they are somewhere around 5,000 students. Plus, aren't MSU and UM already pushing their limits (too big for their britches)?

Post by **SonomaCat** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:31 pm

Cat-theotherwhitemeat wrote:The people in those towns which you want to rid them of their college would love you.

GriznWashington, I don't think I'd agree with taking away the 4 year school from the largest city in Montana. I believe they are somewhere around 5,000 students. Plus, aren't MSU and UM already pushing their limits (too big for their britches)?

Oh, I'm sure the local towns wouldn't like it ... and that's why the system remains as it is (politics over practicality). But in terms of an efficient government providing the best services for the lowest tax burden, the current system is terrible.

MSU and UM could easily expand to accomodate the juniors and seniors that came to campus from the feeder JCs ... or handle all of the students if the smaller schools were shut down altogether.

But yeah, it would definitely suck for Dillon and Havre and Butte. By the same token, it already sucks for Glendive and Kalispell and Lewistown and Fort Benton and all of the other towns that haven't benefitted from having the state build and fund colleges in their towns.

It looks like Tech has about 2,200 students, Northern has about 1,700 students and Western has about 1,200 students. If those schools closed and all of those students instead went to MSU or UM, that would only be an increase of about 2,500 students per school, and the state would have saved the budget of three entire schools to split between MSU and UM to expand to accomodate those students.

As it is, UM and MSU are relatively small schools ... they certainly could grow quite a bit without hurting quality.

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