ISU Suspends Kramer for one game.

[Maudlow]

The AD signs off on the scholarship based on the coach's recommendation of the student athlete...c'mon man.

Yes that is true...I'm just trying to understand how you can believe that since Mike Kramer recommended a player he incurs all the blame when that player turns out to have issues.

I'm not saying that since Mr. Fields was the final signature on the scholarship offer he should assume all responsiblity. I'm just not clear how you can be so negative towards Kramer and his legacy, yet stick up for Mr. Fields any somebody says anything negative about him here. I agree that when football players do something in a negative light the first person you look at is the head football coach. However, I don't feel like 100% of the blame can go on that head coach. College athletics operates as a system and the systemed failed. Blame can be dished out to the AD, head coach, the position coach, teammates, and of course the athletes.

To say the AD at the time had no responsiblity in what happened seems a little short sighted.

[NrthFce]

Did Earle the Pearl have off field issues? Sure he failed putting a quality product on the field for game, disappointing me for five years. Kramer had a major role in making me ashamed of and damaging our community.

So you're blaming Kramer for the decisions made by 18-22 year old young men? Makes sense...

You're not just recruiting a player... You are recruiting a community member, role model, and student. Neglecting character, past history, team unity, and off field exposure is left on his shoulders.

[CapitalCityCat]

Did Earle the Pearl have off field issues? Sure he failed putting a quality product on the field for game, disappointing me for five years. Kramer had a major role in making me ashamed of and damaging our community.

So you're blaming Kramer for the decisions made by 18-22 year old young men? Makes sense...

You're not just recruiting a player... You are recruiting a community member, role model, and student. Neglecting character, past history, team unity, and off field exposure is left on his shoulders.

Do you have proof that any of these students had previous character issues or weren't team players? If so, please share with the rest of the group.

[John K]

Did Earle the Pearl have off field issues? Sure he failed putting a quality product on the field for game, disappointing me for five years. Kramer had a major role in making me ashamed of and damaging our community.

So you're blaming Kramer for the decisions made by 18-22 year old young men? Makes sense...

You're not just recruiting a player... You are recruiting a community member, role model, and student. Neglecting character, past history, team unity, and off field exposure is left on his shoulders.

Do you have proof that any of these students had previous character issues or weren't team players? If so, please share with the rest of the group.

In fact one of them at least, Andre Fuller, was the last kid that anyone would have expected to be a problem. He parents were both educators, and he was an honor student, with no prior history of getting into trouble. In fact to my knowledge, none of the others had run afoul of the law before coming to Bozeman. Just because a kid is from California or Florida rather than from Montana, or because he transfers from elsewhere rather than coming straight out of high school, doesn't necessarily mean that he's destined to be a "bad apple". Ash recruited the Thomas brothers from Kalispell (even though neither of them ever actually played for the Cats), and both of them would have been far more likely candidates to tarnish MSU's good name, than any of Kramer's ex-players who ended up getting busted. And Gatewood was doing exactly what we all would have wanted him to do...stayed at MSU to finish his degree after completing his eligibility. That ended up biting Kramer in the butt, because if he had left Bozeman and gotten busted back in Cali, nobody would have really cared, or maybe even known about it.

[NrthFce]

Kramer takes the blame for recruting those 18 to 22 year olds and bringing them into the Bobcat Family

But he gets no credit for taking a program that had been irrelevant for 15 years, and turning it into the 2nd best program in the BSC, or for doubling attendance during his tenure? In case you've forgotten, the football program pre-Kramer was like the basketball program is now. Nobody even cared about it, except for the most diehard of Babcat fans. But whatever...

Personally, because I can't speak for Truecat, I give Kramer his credit for those things. He did an amazing job on some of those items you listed, but along with the good, he has to also receive credit for the bad that came as a result of how he chose to arrive at how things turned out. You can't choose where to hand out responsibility. Responsibility must be given for the good as well as the bad.
On a different note... I find it truly disheartening that you viewed the pre-Kramer football program as irrelevant for 15 years and not even cared about. A football program is not just wings and losses (even though percentage wise, Cliff Hysell's record and Kramer's were nearly identical... like 0.466 to a 0.481) The program was putting kids through school, performing voluntary community service, and putting some of the best college athletes ever to play MSU football in a Bobcat uniform.

[NrthFce]

Did Earle the Pearl have off field issues? Sure he failed putting a quality product on the field for game, disappointing me for five years. Kramer had a major role in making me ashamed of and damaging our community.

So you're blaming Kramer for the decisions made by 18-22 year old young men? Makes sense...

You're not just recruiting a player... You are recruiting a community member, role model, and student. Neglecting character, past history, team unity, and off field exposure is left on his shoulders.

Do you have proof that any of these students had previous character issues or weren't team players? If so, please share with the rest of the group.

Pretty sure I am not in charge of vetting the recruit. The Coach is... I believe that is their job as part of recruitment. I can provide you proof that these student athletes did have character issues and did have a problem with team unity. You can check earlier in the thread or the past police reports, but I think we are all aware of the character issues and problems that came with Kramers recruitment process.
If I recommend someone for a job, call it, recruit them for my company and into our community, and with that person comes a wide array of issues after hire. Isn't my reputation, and more directly, my job at stake? I would challenge that if I do this multiple times even after those people move on from the company but stay in and around the community and start causing problems later, people would start to question my judgment. "I didn't know" only works for so long.

[John K]

Kramer takes the blame for recruting those 18 to 22 year olds and bringing them into the Bobcat Family

But he gets no credit for taking a program that had been irrelevant for 15 years, and turning it into the 2nd best program in the BSC, or for doubling attendance during his tenure? In case you've forgotten, the football program pre-Kramer was like the basketball program is now. Nobody even cared about it, except for the most diehard of Babcat fans. But whatever...

Personally, because I can't speak for Truecat, I give Kramer his credit for those things. He did an amazing job on some of those items you listed, but along with the good, he has to also receive credit for the bad that came as a result of how he chose to arrive at how things turned out. You can't choose where to hand out responsibility. Responsibility must be given for the good as well as the bad.
On a different note... I find it truly disheartening that you viewed the pre-Kramer football program as irrelevant for 15 years and not even cared about. A football program is not just wings and losses (even though percentage wise, Cliff Hysell's record and Kramer's were nearly identical... like 0.466 to a 0.481) The program was putting kids through school, performing voluntary community service, and putting some of the best college athletes ever to play MSU football in a Bobcat uniform.

I didn't mean to disparage Coach Hysell or any of the kids who played for MSU during that period. You're right in saying that some great athletes (and great people) played for the Cats during those years, and we actually had a couple of pretty good seasons under Hysell. But you have to admit that in terms of attendance, support from alumni and boosters, and statewide media attention, MSU struggled mightily for many, many years before Kramer arrived. And it's not really valid to just compare Hysell's and Kramer's overall W-L records, which were fairly comparable as you pointed out. But Kramer's teams won 3 BSC titles, went to the playoffs 3 times, and beat UM 3 times, while Hysell's totals in those categories were zero, zero, and zero. Certainly Hysell deserves some credit as well, since the program was much improved versus the Solomonson era, but he just didn't have the charisma to really reignite interest in the program, the way that Kramer did during his time at MSU.

[codecat]

Sorry, been away for a while and just read the thread. I am going to have to agree with true at on this one. Much to many of some of your displeasures, a rather large circle of Cat fans I tend to hang with really view the Kramer era as a black cloud over Bobcat football. Just saying IMHO there is a strong contingent of fans out there that agree with true on the perception MSU was left with was due in fact to many poor decisions and turning a blind eye by our former football coach. I could get more into specifics with individual first hand knowledge and experiences, but find it unnessesary.

Unfortunately, the football coach might just be the most public figure at any college. I think the real turn around started the day he was gone. I wish every individual the best, but every time I read about him f'ing up at some other university, or getting at job after MSU caused so much "defamation of character" I feel like he owes us a piece of that settled out of court lawsuit in return.

Cheers

If Kramer's tenure was a black cloud, then what was Solomonson's?!? A Black Hole? Get real...

Not saying anything about a black cloud, but I know many fans that agree with the bold statement in the sense that it was the out of control bad press and tanking APR that they will remember, irregardless of his accomplishments.

[grizzh8r]

Sorry, been away for a while and just read the thread. I am going to have to agree with true at on this one. Much to many of some of your displeasures, a rather large circle of Cat fans I tend to hang with really view the Kramer era as a black cloud over Bobcat football. Just saying IMHO there is a strong contingent of fans out there that agree with true on the perception MSU was left with was due in fact to many poor decisions and turning a blind eye by our former football coach. I could get more into specifics with individual first hand knowledge and experiences, but find it unnessesary.

Unfortunately, the football coach might just be the most public figure at any college. I think the real turn around started the day he was gone. I wish every individual the best, but every time I read about him f'ing up at some other university, or getting at job after MSU caused so much "defamation of character" I feel like he owes us a piece of that settled out of court lawsuit in return.

Cheers

If Kramer's tenure was a black cloud, then what was Solomonson's?!? A Black Hole? Get real...

Not saying anything about a black cloud, but I know many fans that agree with the bold statement in the sense that it was the out of control bad press and tanking APR that they will remember, irregardless of his accomplishments.

Well, I'm a glass half full type of person, so while I acknowledge the APR issues and off-field player behavior as damaging to MSU's brand, I will forever remember Coach Kramer for all the good things he did for this program. My freshman year at MSU was 2002. I went to games in years prior to that when I was a kid, and listened to the games when I could on the radio, and the excitement around the program during that time was pretty much nil. I remember attending one game with my dad in the late 90's on a beautilf late summer afternoon, and we sat midway up in the student section. there may have been 2.000 people on that side of the field that day; very sparse. I got a sunburn on my legs because I had all the room in the world to stretch out. 5 years later, the place was packed. It was mostly because of the Big Human, and I'll never forget that.

[John K]

Sorry, been away for a while and just read the thread. I am going to have to agree with true at on this one. Much to many of some of your displeasures, a rather large circle of Cat fans I tend to hang with really view the Kramer era as a black cloud over Bobcat football. Just saying IMHO there is a strong contingent of fans out there that agree with true on the perception MSU was left with was due in fact to many poor decisions and turning a blind eye by our former football coach. I could get more into specifics with individual first hand knowledge and experiences, but find it unnessesary.

Unfortunately, the football coach might just be the most public figure at any college. I think the real turn around started the day he was gone. I wish every individual the best, but every time I read about him f'ing up at some other university, or getting at job after MSU caused so much "defamation of character" I feel like he owes us a piece of that settled out of court lawsuit in return.

Cheers

If Kramer's tenure was a black cloud, then what was Solomonson's?!? A Black Hole? Get real...

Not saying anything about a black cloud, but I know many fans that agree with the bold statement in the sense that it was the out of control bad press and tanking APR that they will remember, irregardless of his accomplishments.

Well, I'm a glass half full type of person, so while I acknowledge the APR issues and off-field player behavior as damaging to MSU's brand, I will forever remember Coach Kramer for all the good things he did for this program. My freshman year at MSU was 2002. I went to games in years prior to that when I was a kid, and listened to the games when I could on the radio, and the excitement around the program during that time was pretty much nil. I remember attending one game with my dad in the late 90's on a beautilf late summer afternoon, and we sat midway up in the student section. there may have been 2.000 people on that side of the field that day; very sparse. I got a sunburn on my legs because I had all the room in the world to stretch out. 5 years later, the place was packed. It was mostly because of the Big Human, and I'll never forget that.

Good post. I too remember going to a game in 1998 on a beautiful fall afternoon, and I bet there wasn't 5,000 people in the stands. And by the end of Kramer's tenure, we were averaging 12,000-14,000. I believe we sold out every game during his final season in 2006. I just don't understand why people can't appreciate all the good he did for the program, which is undeniable, even while also acknowledging the "baggage" that came along with it. If anyone seriously argues that he didn't leave the program in far better shape than he found it...well I'm sorry but they're just full of s**t. The interest and support in the program is in a different universe now, compared to what it was pre-Kramer. And make no mistake...he'e at least as much responsible for that as is Coach Ash. Ash has done a great job, and taken things to another level, but I'm not sure that he has the skillset to resurrect a program that had been largely irrelevant for 15 years, in the way that Kramer did. It took someone with his extraordinary charisma and passion to get people excited about the program again, and probably even more importantly, to get boosters to start opening up their pocketbooks.

[TrueCat]

I have spoken to former coaches, administrators and players that had to stay in Bozeman and clean up the mess that Kramer left and they may not necessarily agree with what you are claiming.

[CapitalCityCat]

edit: Let's try this again... the original picture had a caption "World Peace... at the touch of a button"

[ilovethecats]

I have spoken to former coaches, administrators and players that had to stay in Bozeman and clean up the mess that Kramer left and they may not necessarily agree with what you are claiming.

so? i have spoken to former coaches and players that definitely agree with what he's saying. that is why this is such a silly argument. who cares. move on.

[Hawks86]

Some don't give Kramer enough credit and some don't give Ash enough credit.

[John K]

Some don't give Kramer enough credit and some don't give Ash enough credit.

I've never intended to shortchange Coach Ash in any of my posts defending Kramer. He's done an amazing job, and as I said, he's taken things to an even higher level. But there are some people who seem to think the resurgence of Bobcat football began when Ash took over the program, and that's obviously only telling half of the story.

[60's Cat]

Sorry, been away for a while and just read the thread. I am going to have to agree with true at on this one. Much to many of some of your displeasures, a rather large circle of Cat fans I tend to hang with really view the Kramer era as a black cloud over Bobcat football. Just saying IMHO there is a strong contingent of fans out there that agree with true on the perception MSU was left with was due in fact to many poor decisions and turning a blind eye by our former football coach. I could get more into specifics with individual first hand knowledge and experiences, but find it unnessesary.

Unfortunately, the football coach might just be the most public figure at any college. I think the real turn around started the day he was gone. I wish every individual the best, but every time I read about him f'ing up at some other university, or getting at job after MSU caused so much "defamation of character" I feel like he owes us a piece of that settled out of court lawsuit in return.

Cheers

If Kramer's tenure was a black cloud, then what was Solomonson's?!? A Black Hole? Get real...

Not saying anything about a black cloud, but I know many fans that agree with the bold statement in the sense that it was the out of control bad press and tanking APR that they will remember, irregardless of his accomplishments.

Well, I'm a glass half full type of person, so while I acknowledge the APR issues and off-field player behavior as damaging to MSU's brand, I will forever remember Coach Kramer for all the good things he did for this program. My freshman year at MSU was 2002. I went to games in years prior to that when I was a kid, and listened to the games when I could on the radio, and the excitement around the program during that time was pretty much nil. I remember attending one game with my dad in the late 90's on a beautilf late summer afternoon, and we sat midway up in the student section. there may have been 2.000 people on that side of the field that day; very sparse. I got a sunburn on my legs because I had all the room in the world to stretch out. 5 years later, the place was packed. It was mostly because of the Big Human, and I'll never forget that.

Good post. I too remember going to a game in 1998 on a beautiful fall afternoon, and I bet there wasn't 5,000 people in the stands. And by the end of Kramer's tenure, we were averaging 12,000-14,000. I believe we sold out every game during his final season in 2006. I just don't understand why people can't appreciate all the good he did for the program, which is undeniable, even while also acknowledging the "baggage" that came along with it. If anyone seriously argues that he didn't leave the program in far better shape than he found it...well I'm sorry but they're just full of s**t. The interest and support in the program is in a different universe now, compared to what it was pre-Kramer. And make no mistake...he'e at least as much responsible for that as is Coach Ash. Ash has done a great job, and taken things to another level, but I'm not sure that he has the skillset to resurrect a program that had been largely irrelevant for 15 years, in the way that Kramer did. It took someone with his extraordinary charisma and passion to get people excited about the program again, and probably even more importantly, to get boosters to start opening up their pocketbooks.

[Walk-on]

I was one of the biggest criers when Kramer was dismissed but I had to recon with his faults. It seems he sold his soul a little to take on players. I was scared coach Ash did too with certain brothers on the west slope who no longer are on the team. I'm glad we are still on course. Kramer's accomplishments are appreciated, but he really screwed up. We all do sometimes. He is a great personality and can certainly coach. I think he underestimated how much bad apples can bring you down. I was so mad at him for the personal fouls he allowed to certain players. I knew he didn't have control of his players off the field, but certain (un-named) antics/penalties made me realize he didn't have control on the field either. I wish him the best at ISU, and hopefully his best is always less than our best.