Ask an official

[nevadacat]

I also have a question on holding calls: when is it from the original spot and when is it a "spot" foul? Against South Dakota, the Cats had a series with a hold which ended up being a 10 yard penalty from the original line of scrimmage. South Dakota had a hold call a series or two later that ended up being from the spot. Both penalities were while they were on offense, but the cats ended up being penalized 10 yards and repeat the down (I don't remember what the result of the play actually was, but I'm pretty sure it was positive yardage) whereas South Dakota ended up being penalized only like 4-5 yards and repeat the down. The result of their play was close to a first down or a first down. I was confused...and a little drunk...

I think holding is a spot foul unless it occurs behind the LOS. Then, it is marked off from the LOS, not the spot.

[catamaran]

I also have a question on holding calls: when is it from the original spot and when is it a "spot" foul? Against South Dakota, the Cats had a series with a hold which ended up being a 10 yard penalty from the original line of scrimmage. South Dakota had a hold call a series or two later that ended up being from the spot. Both penalities were while they were on offense, but the cats ended up being penalized 10 yards and repeat the down (I don't remember what the result of the play actually was, but I'm pretty sure it was positive yardage) whereas South Dakota ended up being penalized only like 4-5 yards and repeat the down. The result of their play was close to a first down or a first down. I was confused...and a little drunk...

I think holding is a spot foul unless it occurs behind the LOS. Then, it is marked off from the LOS, not the spot.

holding is always a spot foul.

[nevadacat]

I also have a question on holding calls: when is it from the original spot and when is it a "spot" foul? Against South Dakota, the Cats had a series with a hold which ended up being a 10 yard penalty from the original line of scrimmage. South Dakota had a hold call a series or two later that ended up being from the spot. Both penalities were while they were on offense, but the cats ended up being penalized 10 yards and repeat the down (I don't remember what the result of the play actually was, but I'm pretty sure it was positive yardage) whereas South Dakota ended up being penalized only like 4-5 yards and repeat the down. The result of their play was close to a first down or a first down. I was confused...and a little drunk...

I think holding is a spot foul unless it occurs behind the LOS. Then, it is marked off from the LOS, not the spot.

holding is always a spot foul.

If that is the case please explain the following scenario.

1st and 10. O-Lineman commits a holding infraction 5 yards behind the LOS. Penalty is accepted. Why is the next play 2nd and 20 instead of 2nd and 25?

Edit: Never mind, I answered my own question by going to the rule book.

Fouls by the offensive team behind the neutral zone. For the following
fouls committed by the offensive team behind the neutral zone, the
penalty is enforced at the previous spot: illegal use of hands, holding,
illegal block and personal fouls (Exception: If the foul occurs in Team
A’s end zone the penalty is a safety.).

So, holding by the offense behind the LOS is NOT enforced from the spot of the foul, but the previous spot (LOS).

[catamaran]

I also have a question on holding calls: when is it from the original spot and when is it a "spot" foul? Against South Dakota, the Cats had a series with a hold which ended up being a 10 yard penalty from the original line of scrimmage. South Dakota had a hold call a series or two later that ended up being from the spot. Both penalities were while they were on offense, but the cats ended up being penalized 10 yards and repeat the down (I don't remember what the result of the play actually was, but I'm pretty sure it was positive yardage) whereas South Dakota ended up being penalized only like 4-5 yards and repeat the down. The result of their play was close to a first down or a first down. I was confused...and a little drunk...

I think holding is a spot foul unless it occurs behind the LOS. Then, it is marked off from the LOS, not the spot.

holding is always a spot foul.

If that is the case please explain the following scenario.

1st and 10. O-Lineman commits a holding infraction 5 yards behind the LOS. Penalty is accepted. Why is the next play 2nd and 20 instead of 2nd and 25?

its not

[nevadacat]

I also have a question on holding calls: when is it from the original spot and when is it a "spot" foul? Against South Dakota, the Cats had a series with a hold which ended up being a 10 yard penalty from the original line of scrimmage. South Dakota had a hold call a series or two later that ended up being from the spot. Both penalities were while they were on offense, but the cats ended up being penalized 10 yards and repeat the down (I don't remember what the result of the play actually was, but I'm pretty sure it was positive yardage) whereas South Dakota ended up being penalized only like 4-5 yards and repeat the down. The result of their play was close to a first down or a first down. I was confused...and a little drunk...

I think holding is a spot foul unless it occurs behind the LOS. Then, it is marked off from the LOS, not the spot.

holding is always a spot foul.

If that is the case please explain the following scenario.

1st and 10. O-Lineman commits a holding infraction 5 yards behind the LOS. Penalty is accepted. Why is the next play 2nd and 20 instead of 2nd and 25?

its not

S 1-10 S40 Jason Smith pass incomplete.
S 2-10 S40 PENALTY SAC holding 10 yards to the SAC30.
S 2-20 S30 Jason Smith pass incomplete.

W 1-10 S34 Cameron Higgins pass complete to Tim Toone for 22 yards to the SAC12,
1ST DOWN WSU (Durrell Oliver).
W 1-10 S12 PENALTY WSU holding 10 yards to the SAC22.
W 1-20 S22 Cameron Higgins pass incomplete.

S 3-11 W47 Bethel-Thompson pass complete to Matt Larson for 21 yards to the WSU26,
1ST DOWN SAC (Blake Keller).
S 1-10 W26 PENALTY SAC holding 10 yards to the WSU36.
S 1-20 W36 Bethel-Thompson rush for 4 yards to the WSU32 (Brandt Eteuati;Caldwell

V 1-10 H21 Cameron Higgins pass incomplete to Kam. Kaimikaua.
V 2-10 H21 Cameron Higgins sacked for loss of 4 yards to the NC25 (Martin Awachie),
PENALTY WSU holding 10 yards to the NC31, NO PLAY.
V 2-20 H31 Timeout Weber State, clock 00:36.
V 2-20 H31 Cameron Higgins pass complete to Tim Toone for 25 yards to the NC6, 1ST
DOWN WSU (Stephen Michon).

We either have really bad refs, or there are a lot of holding calls that occur precisely at the line of scrimmage.

[catamaran]

most holding penalties do occur at the line of scrimmage.......committed by o-linemen

[nevadacat]

most holding penalties do occur at the line of scrimmage.......committed by o-linemen

Most. I see you didn't say all.

These facts do not support your explanation.

(1) the rule states holding behind the neutral zone is marked from the previous spot (it doesn't say how far behind, simply behind), and
(2) in looking through more than two dozen box scores (more than 30 offensive holds) there was not a single instance where the distance (for a 1st down) after an offensive holding penalty had increased by more than 10 yards from the previous distance. (It's unlikely that every offensive holding penalty I found occurred at or in front of the line of scrimmage.)

Show me one case, either via rule book, or via box score, to support your explanation. Otherwise, I think you are incorrect on this point.

[GOKATS]

most holding penalties do occur at the line of scrimmage.......committed by o-linemen

Most. I see you didn't say all.

These facts do not support your explanation.

(1) the rule states holding behind the neutral zone is marked from the previous spot (it doesn't say how far behind, simply behind), and
(2) in looking through more than two dozen box scores (more than 30 offensive holds) there was not a single instance where the distance (for a 1st down) after an offensive holding penalty had increased by more than 10 yards from the previous distance. (It's unlikely that every offensive holding penalty I found occurred at or in front of the line of scrimmage.)

Show me one case, either via rule book, or via box score, to support your explanation. Otherwise, I think you are incorrect on this point.

The way I read it is the same as you, if the hold is behind the neutral zone the penalty is from the previous spot. Also going back a few posts, if it were 1st and 10 and the team had a holding foul it would be 1st and 20- no loss of down.

[catamaran]

ART. 1 . . . If a foul occurs during a down, the basic spot is determined by the
action that occurs during the down. This is the basic spot for penalty enforcement.
ART. 2 . . . The basic spot is the previous spot:
a. For a foul which occurs simultaneously with the snap or free kick.
b. For a foul which occurs during a loose ball play, as defined in 10-3-1. See
10-5-5 for special enforcement on roughing the passer.
c. For a foul which occurs during a down in which a legal kick occurs and an
inadvertent whistle ends the down prior to possession by either team.
ART. 3 . . . The basic spot is the spot where the kick ends when R commits a
post-scrimmage kick foul (2-16-2h). R fouls behind the post-scrimmage kick
spot are spot fouls.
ART. 4 . . . The basic spot is the spot where the related run ends for a foul
which occurs during a running play as defined in 10-3-2.

Unless otherwise listed in Section 4 and 5, a penalty for a foul occurring during
a play is enforced from the basic spot with the exception of a foul by the offense
which occurs behind the basic spot during a loose ball play or running play. This
particular foul is enforced from the spot of the foul.

[catamaran]

ENFORCEMENT
Enforcement provisions apply to all player fouls.
These provisions are not complicated by exceptions
or special penalties. By learning a few fundamentals,
officials will master the principles of
penalty enforcement quickly and without difficulty.
Enforcement philosophy is based on the fact
that a team is given the advantage of the distance
which is gained without assistance of a foul. It is
assumed that the only foul which would give this
aid is a foul by the offense behind the basic spot.
Therefore, all fouls but this one, that is a foul by
the offense behind the basic spot, are penalized
from the basic spot unless the spot is otherwise
specified by rule. This one foul is penalized from
the spot of the foul. Whenever the ball is live, one
of two types of plays is in progress, that is, either
a loose-ball play (Fig. 2) or a running play (Figs. 3
and 4). The type of play has no significance unless
a foul occurs. If a foul does occur, the officials
must know whether it was during a loose-ball play
or during a running play, because this immed iately
determines the basic spot of enforcement unless
the spot is otherwise specified by rule.
A loose-ball play is action during:

[tetoncat]

interesting call in the Northern/Western game last week and Samson just went ballistic. They called an illegal chop block on the wide receiver negating about a 40 yard play that would have given Northern first and goal at the 5. Samson claimed it was not a penalty if it occured more than 10yards down field. The ref basically agreed but said it was close. Samson kept pointing at the flag and then the down marker and loudly trying to get the official to look. Flag was about 6 inches from the 35 and the down marker was at the 46. Result was Samson calling BS (literally) drawing an additional 15 yard penalty. It was a spot foul. What was interesting was it went from 3rd and 5 to 3rd and 24 as they marked off the two 15 yard penalties. Seems like that meant the spot of foul was 11 yards down field.

[catamaran]

i don't know the frontier rule, there aren't any legal cut blocks off of the LOS after the initial charge

[tetoncat]

The receiver made contact up high then went down below the knees from the front. I have seen this kind of block many times and sometimes it seems to get called and others not. I am not sure of the rules either, whether it is below the knees, you have to make upper body contact first or some other rule. It just seemed odd that the official appeared to agree with Samson that the block would have been ok, past 10 yards, but would not even go over and look closer at the distance to see if it was past that amount.

[catamaran]

how you describe it, the yardage shouldn't matter. when blocks start out legal, they're legal unless you lose contact and then re-establish

[CPACAT]

I was talking to a high school football official the other day and I was asking a question about some rulings during another game and he indicated that there were 292 rule differences between Montana high school football and college football. Throw in NFl football which we all watch and its no wonder no one knows what the hell is going on.

[catamaran]

there are only about 25-30 differences between high school and NFL

[catamaran]

an interesting take on officiating
http://www.helenair.com/sports/baseball ... 03286.html

[Billings_Griz]

an interesting take on officiating
http://www.helenair.com/sports/baseball ... 03286.html

Nice. I was to go to that but I don't like the ass-kissing my fellow umps do to get tourney's. And I saved $300-$400.

Thanks for the write up--they got a better turnout than I thought they would.

[catamaran]

an interesting take on officiating
http://www.helenair.com/sports/baseball ... 03286.html

Nice. I was to go to that but I don't like the ass-kissing my fellow umps do to get tourney's. And I saved $300-$400.

Thanks for the write up--they got a better turnout than I thought they would.

I was going to go too but couldn't get off work for that friday morning class. That and there isn't any butt kissing involved to get fastpitch tourney spots

[catamaran]

So people can't blame the officials when this happens next year

The NCAA wants to get tough on taunting and make it more difficult for football players with concussions to try to tough it out. Both proposals were announced Thursday by the Football Rules Committee and must now be approved by the Playing Rules Oversight Panel. If passed, players who draw flags for taunting gestures on their way to a touchdown would have the penalty assessed from the spot of the foul, taking away the score. Penalties that occur in the end zone would continue to be assessed on the extra-point attempt, 2-point conversion try or ensuing kickoff. The change would take effect in 2011 and on the NCAA's web site, a release said the proposal received near-unanimous support.