griz AD on NCAA Investigation - Billings Gazette

[[cat_bracket]]

Are you saying that Pflu should have reported to law enforcement the consensual sex reported to him by law enforcement? What would be the point? Don't they already know if they were the ones that told him?

Are you saying you don't know how this works? Here's a hint: it has nothing to do with a coach reporting something to the police.

[tampa_griz]

Are you saying that Pflu should have reported to law enforcement the consensual sex reported to him by law enforcement? What would be the point? Don't they already know if they were the ones that told him?

Are you saying you don't know how this works? Here's a hint: it has nothing to do with a coach reporting something to the police.

Well you're saying that this case is exactly like the Penn State case and thus, the same punishment should be doled out. And Penn State got into trouble for not reporting something to the police. I'm just wondering why they would report something to the police that didn't happen to the police. It doesn't make sense.

[[cat_bracket]]

Are you saying that Pflu should have reported to law enforcement the consensual sex reported to him by law enforcement? What would be the point? Don't they already know if they were the ones that told him?

I see you do know how it works, but you apparently haven't been following this very close.

[Rich K]

Another top 10 list in which the Griz may have a good chance of appearing.

http://deadspin.com/5929290/here-are-yo ... e-football" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Coach Vacated wins
Joe Paterno (Penn State) 112
Butch Davis (UNC) 16
Mike Shula (Alabama) 16
Pete Carroll (USC) 14
Jim Tressel (Ohio State) 12
Bobby Bowden (Florida State) 12
Steve Roberts (Arkansas State) 10
Nick Saban (Alabama and Michigan State) 10
Gene Stallings (Alabama) 8
Mike Cavan (SMU) 5
Tom Holmoe (Cal) 1
Paul Johnson (Georgia Tech) 1

[John K]

Seems I made a mistake regarding how the Cat-Griz series would be affected. The NCAA doesn't officially track series records and the national consensus is to disregard the game entirely, so Cat-Griz would drop back to 69-37-5 for both.

The vacated wins would cost um it's 2011 BSC co-champion title. That happened to Georgia Tech in 2009.

Which would make MSU the sole BSC Champ in 2011

That's why I think the whole concept of vacating wins is stupid. No one will think of it that way, Cat fans or Griz fans, regardless of what's indicated in the official record book. And the all-time series record would make it seem like there was no Cat-Griz game in 2011. I guarantee you that every UM player who played on that game will remember it as a win, and every MSU player will remember it as a loss, as will almost all of the fans of both teams. There are several ways to punish them that would be far more effective and punitive, versus vacating wins.

[catatac]

Seems I made a mistake regarding how the Cat-Griz series would be affected. The NCAA doesn't officially track series records and the national consensus is to disregard the game entirely, so Cat-Griz would drop back to 69-37-5 for both.

The vacated wins would cost um it's 2011 BSC co-champion title. That happened to Georgia Tech in 2009.

Which would make MSU the sole BSC Champ in 2011

That's why I think the whole concept of vacating wins is stupid. No one will think of it that way, Cat fans or Griz fans, regardless of what's indicated in the official record book. And the all-time series record would make it seem like there was no Cat-Griz game in 2011. I guarantee you that every UM player who played on that game will remember it as a win, and every MSU player will remember it as a loss, as will almost all of the fans of both teams. There are several ways to punish them that would be far more effective and punitive, versus vacating wins.

Tell you what... I would have no problem throwing in a "vacated" win of UM over MSU back in their faces whenever theytry to tell me that we can't count our one National Championship where we tied for the trophy.

[tampa_griz]

That's why I think the whole concept of vacating wins is stupid. No one will think of it that way, Cat fans or Griz fans, regardless of what's indicated in the official record book. And the all-time series record would make it seem like there was no Cat-Griz game in 2011. I guarantee you that every UM player who played on that game will remember it as a win, and every MSU player will remember it as a loss, as will almost all of the fans of both teams. There are several ways to punish them that would be far more effective and punitive, versus vacating wins.

Tell you what... I would have no problem throwing in a "vacated" win of UM over MSU back in their faces whenever theytry to tell me that we can't count our one National Championship where we tied for the trophy.

I'm not sure those are very analogous scenarios. One scenario changes the outcome of a game already played. The other doesn't.

[PapaG]

Seems I made a mistake regarding how the Cat-Griz series would be affected. The NCAA doesn't officially track series records and the national consensus is to disregard the game entirely, so Cat-Griz would drop back to 69-37-5 for both.

The vacated wins would cost um it's 2011 BSC co-champion title. That happened to Georgia Tech in 2009.

Which would make MSU the sole BSC Champ in 2011

That's why I think the whole concept of vacating wins is stupid. No one will think of it that way, Cat fans or Griz fans, regardless of what's indicated in the official record book. And the all-time series record would make it seem like there was no Cat-Griz game in 2011. I guarantee you that every UM player who played on that game will remember it as a win, and every MSU player will remember it as a loss, as will almost all of the fans of both teams. There are several ways to punish them that would be far more effective and punitive, versus vacating wins.

It sure won't stop me from reminding my many Griz friends and family that they cheated to win that game, though.

Cheaters!!

[cats2506]

That's why I think the whole concept of vacating wins is stupid. No one will think of it that way, Cat fans or Griz fans, regardless of what's indicated in the official record book. And the all-time series record would make it seem like there was no Cat-Griz game in 2011. I guarantee you that every UM player who played on that game will remember it as a win, and every MSU player will remember it as a loss, as will almost all of the fans of both teams. There are several ways to punish them that would be far more effective and punitive, versus vacating wins.

Tell you what... I would have no problem throwing in a "vacated" win of UM over MSU back in their faces whenever theytry to tell me that we can't count our one National Championship where we tied for the trophy.

I'm not sure those are very analogous scenarios. One scenario changes the outcome of a game already played. The other doesn't.

Just keep in mind that games are vacated because of CHEATING, in other words, if you CHEAT, you don't get to count the game or claim the championship.

[Grizlaw]

Here's an open question for anyone on the board who wants to answer:

What do you think is the better punishment for things like this? Forcing the team to vacate wins from past seasons, or harsher punishments involving things that might cause the team to lose games in future seasons (e.g., loss of scholarships, postseason bans, etc.)?

I guess from my perspective, I'm not sure. I think imposing punishment on future teams would have a greater impact on the program, but you're also punishing players and coaches who weren't there at the time the infractions occurred, which some would argue is unfair. Forcing the team to vacate wins from the seasons in question has the effect of punishing the "right" people, although since they're not around anymore, they may not care.

As a fan, I'm not really bothered by having to vacate wins from past seasons, although I'd feel differently if one of the seasons in question was a national championship season.

Anyway...discuss.

[John K]

That's why I think the whole concept of vacating wins is stupid. No one will think of it that way, Cat fans or Griz fans, regardless of what's indicated in the official record book. And the all-time series record would make it seem like there was no Cat-Griz game in 2011. I guarantee you that every UM player who played on that game will remember it as a win, and every MSU player will remember it as a loss, as will almost all of the fans of both teams. There are several ways to punish them that would be far more effective and punitive, versus vacating wins.

Tell you what... I would have no problem throwing in a "vacated" win of UM over MSU back in their faces whenever theytry to tell me that we can't count our one National Championship where we tied for the trophy.

I'm not sure those are very analogous scenarios. One scenario changes the outcome of a game already played. The other doesn't.

Just keep in mind that games are vacated because of CHEATING, in other words, if you CHEAT, you don't get to count the game or claim the championship.

So, if MLB could ever prove that Barry Bonds used PED, should all of his HR be wiped from the record books? Should the Giants 2002 NL pennant be vacated, if it is someday proven that Bonds used PED that season? Any "tainted" wins and/or titles should be denoted as such in the official record book, but you can't change history and pretend that something didn't happen, that really did happen.

[John K]

Here's an open question for anyone on the board who wants to answer:

What do you think is the better punishment for things like this? Forcing the team to vacate wins from past seasons, or harsher punishments involving things that might cause the team to lose games in future seasons (e.g., loss of scholarships, postseason bans, etc.)?

I guess from my perspective, I'm not sure. I think imposing punishment on future teams would have a greater impact on the program, but you're also punishing players and coaches who weren't there at the time the infractions occurred, which some would argue is unfair. Forcing the team to vacate wins from the seasons in question has the effect of punishing the "right" people, although since they're not around anymore, they may not care.

As a fan, I'm not really bothered by having to vacate wins from past seasons, although I'd feel differently if one of the seasons in question was a national championship season.

Anyway...discuss.

I think it is a much more effective deterrent in terms of discouraging future violations, to punish a program in a way that makes it harder for them to win in future seasons.The program is being punished, not individual players (although that of course is an ancillary effect), and I don't think vacating wins is much of a punishment at all. Most players, coaches and fans will always remember the "unoffiical" results, no matter what is indicated in the record book.