NCAA investigating UM

[PapaG]

I've also seen it mentioned that MSU had the NCAA investigate the football program after the Kramer fiasco. Did I completely miss this happening, because I'm not aware of MSU ever receiving an official Notice of Investigation/Inquiry from the NCAA?

I was thinking the same thing -- I didn't remember anything like that.

That's partially what took me down the path of wondering if the NCAA really cares about criminal activities at all.

I know I'm getting older and aren't quite on the ball like I was 5 years ago, but it seems like I'd remember an NCAA investigation into the MSU football program. Maybe not, though.

[PapaG]

I'll also add that the UO retained the services of a law firm that specializes in working with the NCAA (nicknamed "The Cleaner"), and has bent over backward to be transparent with the NCAA, and proactive in working for a summary judgement.

I hope UM lawyers up as well, and not just by using boosters.

[tampa_griz]

Serious question.....why would you "lawyer up" against an NCAA investigation? I thought you only did that in criminal, civil, and Congressional investigations. Do you need a lawyer if you're accused of helping a kid get a free tattoo?

[Cat Grad]

Serious question.....why would you "lawyer up" against an NCAA investigation? I thought you only did that in criminal, civil, and Congressional investigations. Do you need a lawyer if you're accused of helping a kid get a free tattoo?

Don't know whether Jim Tressel helped his players get a free tattoo, he sure needed legal advice for lying about knowing about it. If there are those still around obstructing the NCAA investigation, then yes, they may soon require legal services.

[HelenaCat95]

I have no information on why and what the NCAA is investigating UM for. But if my memory is correct, early on in the beginnings of all of "this" becoming public, someone mentioned that there may be some Title IX issues at UM. Could that be what the NCAA is looking at?
just wondering

[tampa_griz]

I have no information on why and what the NCAA is investigating UM for. But if my memory is correct, early on in the beginnings of all of "this" becoming public, someone mentioned that there may be some Title IX issues at UM. Could that be what the NCAA is looking at?
just wondering

I doubt it. I can't see how Title IX enforcement would fall under their responsibility.

[Grizlaw]

Serious question.....why would you "lawyer up" against an NCAA investigation? I thought you only did that in criminal, civil, and Congressional investigations. Do you need a lawyer if you're accused of helping a kid get a free tattoo?

I really hate the phrase "lawyer up," because it kind of implies that it's a bad thing for a person or entity that is being investigated to try to get an understanding of what his/her/its rights are. To answer your question, though, there are lawyers who specialize in all kinds of administrative and quasi-legal proceedings (including, I'm sure, representing athletes or institutions that are accused of NCAA infractions). I doubt most schools seek outside legal advice for every little infraction they're accused of, but in UM's case, I certainly would think it would be prudent (especially at a time when the DOJ and DOE are also investigating the school, and any disclosures that are made to the NCAA will probably somehow end up in the hands of the other investigating agencies as well).

[PapaG]

Serious question.....why would you "lawyer up" against an NCAA investigation? I thought you only did that in criminal, civil, and Congressional investigations. Do you need a lawyer if you're accused of helping a kid get a free tattoo?

I really hate the phrase "lawyer up," because it kind of implies that it's a bad thing for a person or entity that is being investigated to try to get an understanding of what his/her/its rights are. To answer your question, though, there are lawyers who specialize in all kinds of administrative and quasi-legal proceedings (including, I'm sure, representing athletes or institutions that are accused of NCAA infractions). I doubt most schools seek outside legal advice for every little infraction they're accused of, but in UM's case, I certainly would think it would be prudent (especially at a time when the DOJ and DOE are also investigating the school, and any disclosures that are made to the NCAA will probably somehow end up in the hands of the other investigating agencies as well).

To add to what GrizLaw posted, here is why Oregon retained counsel. I'll add that Oregon hired Glazier six months before the NCAA started an investigation into the recruiting service run by Will Lyles.

http://www2.registerguard.com/cms/index ... a-inquiry/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As it deals with the NCAA's investigation into the football program, Oregon has retained the services of Michael Glazier, whose law firm specializes in NCAA enforcement issues.

Oregon athletic director Rob Mullens confirmed in an email Thursday that Bond, Schoeneck & King was retained in March. Glazier leads a division of the firm, the Collegiate Sports Practice Group, which routinely represents schools in NCAA infractions cases.

During the last 25 years, Glazier has been involved in multiple high-profile cases. The firm’s role sometimes includes helping universities conduct internal investigations into potential NCAA rules violations, and then helping craft defenses against allegations.

Bond, Schoeneck & King has represented schools or individuals including Ohio State, Oklahoma State, Florida, Missouri, Minnesota, Louisville and former Oklahoma and Indiana basketball coach Kelvin Sampson. Glazier’s work has been credited with helping mitigate NCAA sanctions when schools have been found guilty of rules violations. He’s been called the “NCAA defender to the stars” and “the Cleaner."

Glazier's strategy sometimes involves admitting violations and seeking to atone for them with self-imposed penalties. Glazier did not return phone calls or emails Thursday. In an interview with ESPN.com in 2008, he took issue with the idea he’s often brought in as a “fixer.”

Here is a larger view from the NYT on using outside counsel when dealing with the NCAA.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/04/sport ... NCAA&scp=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Facing N.C.A.A., the Best Defense Is a Legal Team

The NCAA isn't in Missoula to be the school's buddy or to help them clean things up so they can win games this fall. It's an adversarial relationship once the NCAA announces an investigation into a program. Good luck, and UM should be seeking as much expertise as they can as they continue to deal with the NCAA on this matter.

[[cat_bracket]]

I think the positive news for the Griz is there hasn't been any infraction mentioned that would line them up for a fall. Usually when an investigation is going on there's some specific infraction that everyone knows about. USC = Bush being paid; OSU = Free tattoos, lying about it. If all they're looking at is the players being dropped off at the lawyer office that just doesn't strike me as something that can't be explained away. Are there other infractions that might be getting looked into? I think the other issues are in the DOE's and DOJ's area, aren't they?

[PapaG]

I think the positive news for the Griz is there hasn't been any infraction mentioned that would line them up for a fall. Usually when an investigation is going on there's some specific infraction that everyone knows about. USC = Bush being paid; OSU = Free tattoos, lying about it. If all they're looking at is the players being dropped off at the lawyer office that just doesn't strike me as something that can't be explained away. Are there other infractions that might be getting looked into? I think the other issues are in the DOE's and DOJ's area, aren't they?

USC and tOSU are national programs who attract the attention of national news organizations. Oregon as well, at least in the last 10 years or so. If the mess at UM was going on at a major program, such as a USC or a tOSU, the media attention would be unreal. ESPN would be camped out and hounding Royce Engstrom, and investigative reporters such as Charles Robinson at Yahoo! would be all over campus trying to dig up dirt on the program, whether it be true or false.

Think about it:

Football players tazed, arrested, and escorted directly to the office of a powerful attorney who happens to be a big UM booster.
Alleged gang rapes in the football program using roofies.
Alleged lack of concern by university officials regarding claims of rape.
A Saudi national allowed to flee home after being accused of rape.
A vague email by a university VP that seems to be negative toward an alleged rape victim, and wonders if she violated the Student Conduct Code.
Starting QB accused of rape by student; coach welcomes him back to team with open arms.
The Department of Justice investigating the DA office, MPD, UM campus police, and how it ties into the university.
The Department of Education investigating Title IX compliance.
The NCAA announces a formal investigation into the football program.

I'm sure I'm missing things, but you get the point.

I'm just amazed how UM fans (not all, but quite a few I've talked to in Missoula) seem to think that this is just a bump in the road, and that the boys will be rocking and rolling again come fall.

The NCAA isn't in Missoula because they read somewhere that a university VP drove a few players to a law office on a Sunday. That would take a phone call to clear up, or at the very least UM would self-report it if they weren't sure about it, and it is a secondary violation, if it is even a violation at all. Schools self-report that sort of stuff all the time.

[LTown Cat]

I have no information on why and what the NCAA is investigating UM for. But if my memory is correct, early on in the beginnings of all of "this" becoming public, someone mentioned that there may be some Title IX issues at UM. Could that be what the NCAA is looking at?
just wondering

The NCAA isn't investigating UM athletics...they are investigating the UM FOOTBALL program specifically. I highly doubt it's a Title IX issue in that regard...

[DaCats21]

Having no inside information whatsoever, my gut feeling is that the NCAA is investigating the use of Datsopoulos, MacDonald, & Lind for legal services for athletes as an improper benefit. The timeline of when the NCAA investigation fits in with when this whole "Grizgate" situation started picking up steam and when announcements that the law office's services were being used for the numerous crimes griz players were accused of.

A lack of institutional control may also be a focus of the NCAA.

All the other Title IX stuff and criminal charges, IMO, would fall under the DOE and DOJ investigations

[TIrwin24]

Dude, seriously, get over yourself. It's getting old.

I don't know which is worse a pompous person who's always right, like PapaG, or a pompous person who's always wrong, like you.

sticks and stones junior, sticks and stones

From when this started I do remember Papa claiming that sh*t was about to hit the fan and some griz posters were discounting everything he's said. Turns out he was pretty accurate, had his 15 minutes of glory, but is still wanting to rant on about how right he has been.

As much as I hate everything griz, I hope they can somehow get their ducks in a row and quick, as this type of publicity is not good for the entire state of Montana.

[SonomaCat]

I think the positive news for the Griz is there hasn't been any infraction mentioned that would line them up for a fall. Usually when an investigation is going on there's some specific infraction that everyone knows about. USC = Bush being paid; OSU = Free tattoos, lying about it. If all they're looking at is the players being dropped off at the lawyer office that just doesn't strike me as something that can't be explained away. Are there other infractions that might be getting looked into? I think the other issues are in the DOE's and DOJ's area, aren't they?

If the attorney was a booster and was giving them reduced rate or pro bono services, AND a school official was escorting them to that attorney's offices, then I think it's actually a far bigger deal than free tattoos or any of the minor things other schools have gotten in trouble for.

Given the billing rates of attorneys, that could add up to a large monetary value of improper benefits quite quickly.

[PapaG]

Dude, seriously, get over yourself. It's getting old.

I don't know which is worse a pompous person who's always right, like PapaG, or a pompous person who's always wrong, like you.

sticks and stones junior, sticks and stones

From when this started I do remember Papa claiming that sh*t was about to hit the fan and some griz posters were discounting everything he's said. Turns out he was pretty accurate, had his 15 minutes of glory, but is still wanting to rant on about how right he has been.

As much as I hate everything griz, I hope they can somehow get their ducks in a row and quick, as this type of publicity is not good for the entire state of Montana.

I'm not sure why me having information, and relaying it to posters I trust via PM, upsets you so much. As somebody posted, everybody always wants a bit of inside information on boards like these, yet when somebody has it and shares it with a few people, those who don't have that information get upset. I can only guess to why that happens psychologically to some posters. I don't recall ever having a beef with you, so I'm sorry if I did something to make you angry.

[PapaG]

I have no information on why and what the NCAA is investigating UM for. But if my memory is correct, early on in the beginnings of all of "this" becoming public, someone mentioned that there may be some Title IX issues at UM. Could that be what the NCAA is looking at?
just wondering

The NCAA isn't investigating UM athletics...they are investigating the UM FOOTBALL program specifically. I highly doubt it's a Title IX issue in that regard...

It is my understanding that the Title IX issue is under the DoE umbrella.

It's going to be difficult to keep all of these investigations straight!

[PapaG]

BAC, you were asking about pro bono services. The question isn't if it happened, but how often, and who received the free counsel.

The attorney also answered questions about the relationship between his firm and UM.

Questions about that relationship arose after UM officials accompanied two other Grizzly football players to the law firm on a Sunday after a rowdy party in October.

Trumaine Johnson and Gerald Kemp were tased by Missoula police during that incident, and eventually pleaded no contest to misdemeanor disorderly conduct charges. Both were represented by the Datsopoulos firm.

On Monday, Datsopoulos said the firm has a "long history of representing students and student-athletes from the University of Montana."

However, he said there is no arrangement by which the firm represents athletes, and the university does not pay legal fees in cases where the firm does so.

"It is true that our entire firm has been involved with the university over the years, with scholarships and donations that don't just have to do with athletics," Datsopoulos said. "But there is no agreement that we represent their athletes."

Datsopoulos said the firm has represented athletes pro bono in the past, but said the Johnson, Kemp and Donaldson cases all involved fees.

"There's never been a discussion otherwise," he said.

http://m.missoulian.com/mobile/article_ ... 963f4.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Notice that the NCAA started looking into the program in January, and that this article is from 1/12/12. That is took 5 months for the NCAA to formally announce the investigation with a Notice of Inquiry should scare the hell out of Griz fans, as should Royce Engstrom apparently being clueless about what was being investigated.

[SonomaCat]

It's interesting how that quote was conspicuously silent as to whether those clients were charged standard billing rates, whether they were charged $1 each, or somewhere in between. It's like answering the questions without really answering the question. Will be interesting to see what the NCAA turns up.

[cats2506]

I think the positive news for the Griz is there hasn't been any infraction mentioned that would line them up for a fall. Usually when an investigation is going on there's some specific infraction that everyone knows about. USC = Bush being paid; OSU = Free tattoos, lying about it. If all they're looking at is the players being dropped off at the lawyer office that just doesn't strike me as something that can't be explained away. Are there other infractions that might be getting looked into? I think the other issues are in the DOE's and DOJ's area, aren't they?

USC and tOSU are national programs who attract the attention of national news organizations. Oregon as well, at least in the last 10 years or so. If the mess at UM was going on at a major program, such as a USC or a tOSU, the media attention would be unreal. ESPN would be camped out and hounding Royce Engstrom, and investigative reporters such as Charles Robinson at Yahoo! would be all over campus trying to dig up dirt on the program, whether it be true or false.

Think about it:

Football players tazed, arrested, and escorted directly to the office of a powerful attorney who happens to be a big UM booster.
Alleged gang rapes in the football program using roofies.
Alleged lack of concern by university officials regarding claims of rape.
A Saudi national allowed to flee home after being accused of rape.
A vague email by a university VP that seems to be negative toward an alleged rape victim, and wonders if she violated the Student Conduct Code.
Starting QB accused of rape by student; coach welcomes him back to team with open arms.
The Department of Justice investigating the DA office, MPD, UM campus police, and how it ties into the university.
The Department of Education investigating Title IX compliance.
The NCAA announces a formal investigation into the football program.

I'm sure I'm missing things, but you get the point.

I'm just amazed how UM fans (not all, but quite a few I've talked to in Missoula) seem to think that this is just a bump in the road, and that the boys will be rocking and rolling again come fall.

The NCAA isn't in Missoula because they read somewhere that a university VP drove a few players to a law office on a Sunday. That would take a phone call to clear up, or at the very least UM would self-report it if they weren't sure about it, and it is a secondary violation, if it is even a violation at all. Schools self-report that sort of stuff all the time.

case in point: this was posted today over there

by pussycatkillerz » Thu May 31, 2012 12:50 pm

2012 Griz FOOTBALL predictions

South Dakota W 28-14
@ Appalachian State W 17-14
Liberty W 24-14
Northern Arizona * W 27-14
@ Eastern Washington * W 14-10
@ Northern Colorado * W 48-10
Southern Utah * W 28-14
@ North Dakota * W 31-21
Idaho State * W 42-14
@ Weber State * W 38-34
Montana State * W 35-14

Regular season record: 11-0

Okay realistically I can see this season going 9-2 or even 8-3 but as usual we have a great shot at beating every team on this schedule and an excellent shot at making our 19th trip to the playoffs in the last 20 years. While I respect South Dakota, Liberty and SUU they will be in our house and with nearly a 90% home winning percentage VERY rarely teams come out with a W.

App. State is going to be an extremely tough game. We will finally be on the other end of the stadium spectrum and App. still has to have an awful taste in their mouth from losing to us in the semis with their second coming A.E.

Eastern, North Dakota, Northern Arizona and Weber we should beat but I could see an upset in their most likely coming from eastern or weber.

ISU and NC are very winnable.

If MSU can't make it a game in their house with Akpla they should get beat by a experienced JJ in WaGriz but you never know in this game.

I have hope that this team will feed off of all this pre-season ****** and come out with a fire lit under their asses and prove to be one of the best teams we have ever had. The talent is there. Let's do this.

Go GRIZ

[[cat_bracket]]

Which is worse...going to trial or being investigated? I ask because it seems like you can be punished more readily from findings in an investigation than you can by being charged and going to court. An investigation hands down punishment w/o the burden of proof. You either have the information they need and they're happy or you don't (either by having no information or inadequate information) and they punish you with corrective actions or suspension/probation. In court the burden of proof is on the investigator (prosecutor/plaintiff). Am I looking at that correctly?