Yearly Trip To The Grizzly Den

El_Gato · Post by **El_Gato** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:33 pm

billings,

I have no doubt that there are some Cat fans who did not attend MSU but I also doubt that you'll disagree with me that there are probably at least 20X as many griz fans who never attended UM. I think you'll also agree with me that at any given home game, there are significantly more griz fans in WaGriz that have no other affiliation with UM than football than there are "non-MSU" Cat fans in Bobcat Stadium.

billings & jah,

I have no problem with folks becoming fans simply because of success & proximity, but I DO think there's a difference in the PRIDE factor when it comes to supporting one's alma mater vs just rooting for a successful team. That is what my main point to Papa was; if you're proud of your university, you should display that pride whenever you feel it is appropriate, and in this case, I believe it is.

JahGriz · Post by **JahGriz** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:55 pm

Good point then Gato. (I still can't stop from thinking of the movie "The Rundown" whenever I see a Gato post)

Eastcoastgriz · Post by **Eastcoastgriz** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:43 pm

El_Gato wrote:billings,

I have no doubt that there are some Cat fans who did not attend MSU but I also doubt that you'll disagree with me that there are probably at least 20X as many griz fans who never attended UM. I think you'll also agree with me that at any given home game, there are significantly more griz fans in WaGriz that have no other affiliation with UM than football than there are "non-MSU" Cat fans in Bobcat Stadium.

Of course there is, we have twice the number of fans that attend our games.

Are you stating there is a great percentage of fans at U of M that are not grads then msu? Based on what? Your feelings? There is absolutely no validity to your statement, and if fact U of M has a greater percentage of grads attending football than msu.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:58 pm

I'm not really sure why anyone is debating this whole non-grad fan thing. Isn't it pretty obvious that the % of non-grad fans is higher for UM than MSU? We both have about the same number of grads in MT (MSU probably has more, actually), yet UM obviously has a lot more fans attending their games. And if you look at posters on egriz as a sample of the overall population, a shockingly large number of them have never attended UM. There's nothing at all wrong with that (except when they happen to be jackasses).

That is a good thing from a UM perspective ... good marketing means that you not only attract the low-hanging fruit (alums), but also the larger market.

I look forward to the day when MSU can talk about all of the non-grad followers and contributors to the program. That will be a sign of huge progress.

And to El Gato's point ... an alum does have a lot more pride wrapped in the colors than merely a favorite football team, so that much is relevant to PapaG's original question.

Griz Dude · Post by **Griz Dude** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:37 pm

Depends on how much hair you have on your *ss. If you do not give a rip about who has a problem with you wearing Cat colors, then by all means go for it. I know I would.

Eastcoastgriz · Post by **Eastcoastgriz** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:20 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:I'm not really sure why anyone is debating this whole non-grad fan thing. Isn't it pretty obvious that the % of non-grad fans is higher for UM than MSU? We both have about the same number of grads in MT (MSU probably has more, actually), yet UM obviously has a lot more fans attending their games. And if you look at posters on egriz as a sample of the overall population, a shockingly large number of them have never attended UM. There's nothing at all wrong with that (except when they happen to be jackasses).

Shockingly????? You do realize our stadium seats 23,000 plus and yours does't, that might explain how we have more fans attending games. Explain the correlation of the number of graduates to the number who attend games. This should be interesting.... What percentage of fans that post on EGRIZ aren't UM grads? What percentage of posters on bobcatnation aren't msu grads? And while you are at please tell us the percentage of grads that attend both U of M and msu games.

twentythreeOh4 · Post by **twentythreeOh4** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:37 pm

mslacat wrote:I have worn my Cat sweat shirts Sunday after both loses. If I take any sh!t around Missoula I point out to them that my education is not being used to help me count change for that meal I just ate.colors!!

I'm sure you use the cash register like all the other clerks.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:03 am

Eastcoastgriz wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote:I'm not really sure why anyone is debating this whole non-grad fan thing. Isn't it pretty obvious that the % of non-grad fans is higher for UM than MSU? We both have about the same number of grads in MT (MSU probably has more, actually), yet UM obviously has a lot more fans attending their games. And if you look at posters on egriz as a sample of the overall population, a shockingly large number of them have never attended UM. There's nothing at all wrong with that (except when they happen to be jackasses).
Shockingly????? You do realize our stadium seats 23,000 plus and yours does't, that might explain how we have more fans attending games. Explain the correlation of the number of graduates to the number who attend games. This should be interesting.... What percentage of fans that post on EGRIZ aren't UM grads? What percentage of posters on bobcatnation aren't msu grads? And while you are at please tell us the percentage of grads that attend both U of M and msu games.

I'm not sure why you are debating this point or getting so defensive about it.

And of course we have no hard stats to back up anything ... only anecdotal evidence. If you feel the need to rebut this assertion, go do a survey. For me, the results are self-evident. And I personally find that to be an impressive thing for UM ... although you seem to take bizarre offense to the concept.

And did I not already explicitly state that you have more people going to your games, yet about the same number of alums ... thus leading to further anectodal evidence that there are more non-grads attending games (unless you are suggesting that MSU could pull in 23,000 for home games if only we had more seats ... which I assume you are not)?

Can someone please explain to me the motivation for debating this point?

Eastcoastgriz · Post by **Eastcoastgriz** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:00 am

Bay Area Cat wrote:
Eastcoastgriz wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote:
And did I not already explicitly state that you have more people going to your games, yet about the same number of alums ... thus leading to further anectodal evidence that there are more non-grads attending games (unless you are suggesting that MSU could pull in 23,000 for home games if only we had more seats ... which I assume you are not)?

First there is no anecdotal evidence suggesting the GRIZ get a larger percentage on non-grads attending games. What I am trying to understand is your logic. (Or lack their of).

2nd You are incorrect in your assumption, MSU could pull 23,000 for home games. (If they continue to put a quality product on the field.)

And 3rd. There is an underlying tone in this thread that Alum’s make better, more passionate fans than non-alum’s

Billings_Griz · Post by **Billings_Griz** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:27 am

A lot of peeps making good points here. Everyone touched on a little of everything. Marketing, bigger stadium, and success to name a few.

The Griz have been fortunate to have had success for such a long time, therefore gaining more fans year in and year out. But, like the Griz, the Cats have had success in recent years, therefore, their fan base has increased.

I grew up watching (and liking) the Cowboys, Dodgers and Lakers so I've seen the good and the bad.

Also, I grew up in extreme NE MT. I've been a Griz fan since watching Doug Selvig win Championships in Outlook and then going on to Missoula. UM had a FB team in the mid 80's?

Finally, I (like most Griz fans) hope we both win out and the game in November is for something more than "bragging" rights.

Cats 23/EWU 21

JahGriz · Post by **JahGriz** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:46 am

BAC, I think the motivation for debating the point is because the point EG, and other cat fans, are making IS debatable. There is no proof. A 24,000 seat stadium could not hold all of the alumn of UM who are football fans. And just because UM has more fans at games, doesn't prove, at all, that the Griz have a higher percentage of not alumn fans.
If there was a shred of evidence, other than speculation, based on the minute amount of posters on eGriz (as compared to the total fan base) then I'd think you guys had a point. But there is no proof.
Point debatable, but not a big deal either way, IMO.

Post by **SonomaCat** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:54 am

Eastcoastgriz wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote:
Eastcoastgriz wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote:
And did I not already explicitly state that you have more people going to your games, yet about the same number of alums ... thus leading to further anectodal evidence that there are more non-grads attending games (unless you are suggesting that MSU could pull in 23,000 for home games if only we had more seats ... which I assume you are not)?
First there is no anecdotal evidence suggesting the GRIZ get a larger percentage on non-grads attending games. What I am trying to understand is your logic. (Or lack their of).

2nd You are incorrect in your assumption, MSU could pull 23,000 for home games. (If they continue to put a quality product on the field.)

And 3rd. There is an underlying tone in this thread that Alum’s make better, more passionate fans than non-alum’s

There is ample anecdotal evidence to support that statement (there have actually been threads on egriz as to this question, if you want to go look them up ... or commission a professional poll if you care to refute the assertion ... or call UM's marketing department). The fact that you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

And I didn't read the thread to suggest that alums made better fans, but rather that alum's loyalties ran much deeper than whether or not the football team was entertaining. That seems to be a statement that stands on its own merits. In the immediate case, even though MSU football team has performed poorly, it shouldn't stop any MSU alum from being proud to identify himself or herself with MSU. A non-alum's attention to the institution generally stops at the athletic team. That doesn't make them a lesser "fan" of the football team, it just means they have a lesser overall connection to and pride in the institution itself. They could be the best "fans" of the football team in the friggin' world, though.

So if we remove your interpretation that non-alum fans are inferior in some way, will you then stop debating the rather obvious fact that UM attracts more non-alum fans than MSU? If we state that all fans are just as good as other fans, will you agree to apply common sense in the place of a "prove it!" statement to an obvious assertion?

CARDIAC_CATS · Post by **CARDIAC_CATS** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:46 am

PapaG wrote:We're dragging the kids to Missoula for an extended weekend for some family stuff. I'll be making my yearly visit to WashGriz for the Sacto game.

The question is this. In the past, I've worn an MSU hoodie to the tailgates. Should I wear it this year after the UC Davis debacle? It's off in the stadium; I respect what the Griz have done there and don't need the attention. Besides, everyone by my Mom's seats knows which school my brother and I went to anyhow.

Also, so...is it true that there is no halftime tailgating anymore?

Yes, wear your Cat gear with pride. Will show you are a true Cat Fan.

STREETCAT · Post by **STREETCAT** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:18 am

Being from missoula and now living in bozeman after college, I have no problems wearing my msu apparel around missoula (bars, griz games, the mall, on campus). Never had a problem not even at stocks!

This weekend you will find out that yes there are plenty of griz idiots that will heckle you about how the cats have lost, however you will also find that a fair number of missoulians have ties to bozeman being a brother, sister, kids, ect... that will be supportive of the cats.

Be Proud Of your Cats and your Education!!!! Support the Blue and GOLD!!

PapaG · Post by **PapaG** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:51 pm

STREETCAT wrote:Being from missoula and now living in bozeman after college, I have no problems wearing my msu apparel around missoula (bars, griz games, the mall, on campus). Never had a problem not even at stocks!

This weekend you will find out that yes there are plenty of griz idiots that will heckle you about how the cats have lost, however you will also find that a fair number of missoulians have ties to bozeman being a brother, sister, kids, ect... that will be supportive of the cats.

Be Proud Of your Cats and your Education!!!! Support the Blue and GOLD!!

Car is packed and we're hitting the road in about 30 minutes. Off to Grizland, MSU gear is in the suitcase.

tailbone · Post by **tailbone** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:37 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:.........
There is ample anecdotal evidence to support that statement ...... The fact that you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

..... will you agree to apply common sense in the place of a "prove it!" statement to an obvious assertion?

Anecdotal evidence is an informal account of evidence in the form of an anecdote, or hearsay. Misuse of anecdotal evidence is a logical fallacy and is sometimes informally referred to as the "person who" fallacy ("I know a person who..."; "I know of a case where..." etc, compare with Hasty generalization) The problem with arguing based on anecdotal evidence is that anecdotal evidence is not necessarily typical; only statistical evidence can determine how typical something is.

You're right, the fact that it is unseen doesn't mean that it doesn't exist - and anecdotal evidence doesn't mean that it does.

Common sense is a reasonable basis for common ground but common sense is open to interpretation .....and not all that common.
As for whether an assertion is "obvious", that is also subjective.

C'mon BAC, I expect better of you.

whitetrashgriz · Post by **whitetrashgriz** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:58 pm

tailbone wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote:.........
There is ample anecdotal evidence to support that statement ...... The fact that you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

..... will you agree to apply common sense in the place of a "prove it!" statement to an obvious assertion?
Anecdotal evidence is an informal account of evidence in the form of an anecdote, or hearsay. Misuse of anecdotal evidence is a logical fallacy and is sometimes informally referred to as the "person who" fallacy ("I know a person who..."; "I know of a case where..." etc, compare with Hasty generalization) The problem with arguing based on anecdotal evidence is that anecdotal evidence is not necessarily typical; only statistical evidence can determine how typical something is.

You're right, the fact that it is unseen doesn't mean that it doesn't exist - and anecdotal evidence doesn't mean that it does.

Common sense is a reasonable basis for common ground but common sense is open to interpretation .....and not all that common.
As for whether an assertion is "obvious", that is also subjective.

C'mon BAC, I expect better of you.

that's what i was just about to say.

1BadBobcat · Post by **1BadBobcat** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:06 pm

I grew up with a buddy in Billings, and after high school, he went to UM and I to MSU. We are both die-hards and are extremely loyal to our Alma Maters. At the same time we both love college football and the Big Sky. For the past 10-15 years, we have always coordinated both the Cats and the Griz football schedules to see when we can make it to one another's stadium for a game. This year, my buddy came over last weekend for the UC Davis game

and it looks like I will be travelling over to Missoula Oct. 14 (we are at Sac State and the Griz host NAU).

Interesting to note that he never wears his Griz stuff to our games, but I always wear my Cat stuff to Missoula. No, I am not trying to be a smartass, or try to start a riot. I am just so damn proud of my Cats, that it doesn't bother me to deck out in the blue & gold anytime, anywhere.

So go ahead Papa, and wear Cat gear proudly. We're behind you 106.25% (please mslacat's post in a different thread)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Swilly3224 · Post by **Swilly3224** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:10 pm

mslacat wrote:I have worn my Cat sweat shirts Sunday after both loses. If I take any sh!t around Missoula I point out to them that my education is not being used to help me count change for that meal I just ate.

You have "Man Law" and then you have "Montana State University Law" I will never be embarassed to wear my colors!!

but you saw the light, and now live in heaven

Shakermaker · Post by **Shakermaker** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 3:02 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:
Swilly3224 wrote:If I saw you, Id just laugh at the situation
Just to clarify, what exactly would you be laughing at? A person loyally wearing the colors of his alma mater, even when their football team is doing poorly (and thus proving himself to be as far from being a bandwagon fan as is humanly possible)?

That shouldn't evoke laughter as much as it should evoke admiration.

Cripes, I couldn't even bring myself to wear my MSU stuff around my wife and her friends this weekend after the game (most of whom are Davis and Cal alums), and I'm pretty sure I could take most of them. I wish I had the hardcore loyalty to even consider the question that PapaG asked.

I think you would get more respect for it... on top of good natured ribbing. I wouldn't worry about someone running up to you and doing something out of hand.

Yearly Trip To The Grizzly Den

Re: Yearly Trip To The Grizzly Den