Tribe not going to settle, recommend new Fighting Sioux name

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Post by SonomaCat » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:06 pm

Bleedinbluengold wrote: EDIT: I would also add that if somebody really thinks that a mascot accurately depicts the real entity, to which the mascot refers, then that somebody is just plain dumb. Smart people, regardless of race, can put mascots and real cultural issues into proper perspective.
I wish I could agree that stuff like this has no impact on the perceptions of people of different ethnic groups in our society.

Unfortunately, I am quite sure that it does have a significant influence on people ... and billions of dollars of advertising dollars spent in this country tells us that perception is reality when it comes to marketing, and that people do absord these kinds of cultural cues be it what beer to drink or what perceptions to have about various ethnic, political, etc., groups. It does matter.



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Post by SonomaCat » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:08 pm

NrthFce wrote:um... the UND mascot is not the "Drunken Lysol Huffing Lazy Souix".

I think they (UND) have always treated their mascot honorably and respectfully.... as well as the people.
Aren't the Sioux people themselves in a better position to judge that than anyone who is not Sioux? And their elected leaders seem to disagree with your position on this issue.

Now ... who do you suppose has more insight into this issue, you or them?



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Post by College Recruiter » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:16 pm

I have heard the Greeks are pissed about Michigan States use of the mascot "Spartans".

They feel it belittles their history of placing young Greek boys into warriorhood as early as age 7 and training them to be killers.

They want Michigan State to immediately change their name forthwith!

:rant:



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Post by Bleedinbluengold » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:16 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:
Bleedinbluengold wrote:I disagree. The mascot represents absolutely nothing about Sioux heritage.
That's a really hard position to defend, given that they call themselves the "Fighting Sioux."

Exactly what does Sioux represent in that Indian mascot, if not the group of people whose culture and heritage is defined by the name "Sioux?"

And I'm not sure you're getting it ... we're not talking about a car named the Sioux ... we're talking about a sports mascot that embodies a lot more than just a simple name. We're talking about an image that encompasses a lot of suggestions about the people themselves.

How about if there was a TV show called "Montana" in which all of the characters are supposedly located in Montana and are all inbred bigots and bumbling morons ... and they really like to get into bar fights and are really tough? Now let's assume that this is a PBS show, and receives federal funding in its production. Would you give a crap in that scenario?

Or, rather, would it be no big deal ... and would you joke about any Montanans who did take offense to it? Or maybe we would say that it is actually "honoring" Montanans, because it shows that Montanans are good at bar fights?
In my view, Fighting Sioux represents a formidable opponent in a sporting event, otherwise known as a game. If UND wanted to be derogatory toward the Sioux, their mascot would be quite similar to the one you described for Montanans.

I really don't see how any reasonable person could even see any similarity between a Fighting Sioux and an Inbred Bigot and Bumbling Moronic Montanan.

Does any reasonable person think that the drunken' Leprechan who fights using Marquis of Queensbury rules actually depicts people of Irish descent? I hope not, but I guess it would explain why this is such an issue for Native Americans.

Does any reasonable person think that Patriots are nothing more than freemen?

My examples are completely ridiculous - as is the entire subject.


Montana State IS what "they" think Montana is.

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Post by SonomaCat » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:26 pm

BBG: Do you not find it ridiculous to use an Indian tribe's name and likeness as a unauthorized marketing brand for a sports team?



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Post by Platinumcat » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:28 pm

My thoughts:
1) When I view a picture of the Fighting Sioux mascot, I see an honorable man. So, I don't accept the viewpoint of comparing this to an inbred show of idiots named "Montana".

2) Is it the whole "Fighting" Sioux part that upsets everyone? If the official name was just "Sioux" would that make people more happy? I have to believe when they first came up with this mascot name they were doing so to honor a local influence.

3) I guess I'll had to try and read some more to find some actual comments from tribal members on this. Perhaps I am too far removed to see where this is demeaning to them. Because right now, from my perspective, it feels like they are bent out of shape because they are not benefiting from it in any way.


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Post by College Recruiter » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:28 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:How about if there was a TV show called "Montana" in which all of the characters are supposedly located in Montana and are all inbred bigots and bumbling morons ... and they really like to get into bar fights and are really tough? Now let's assume that this is a PBS show, and receives federal funding in its production. Would you give a crap in that scenario?

Or, rather, would it be no big deal ... and would you joke about any Montanans who did take offense to it? Or maybe we would say that it is actually "honoring" Montanans, because it shows that Montanans are good at bar fights?
We know the modern Montana is not that.....rather it is fast becoming filled with jelly spined politically correct yuppies who are stealing the rugged and tough image many of us were so proud of. You know...people who get pissed about use of a proud mascot term like "Fighting Sioux" and stuff like that. :wink:



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Post by SonomaCat » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:36 pm

College Recruiter wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote:How about if there was a TV show called "Montana" in which all of the characters are supposedly located in Montana and are all inbred bigots and bumbling morons ... and they really like to get into bar fights and are really tough? Now let's assume that this is a PBS show, and receives federal funding in its production. Would you give a crap in that scenario?

Or, rather, would it be no big deal ... and would you joke about any Montanans who did take offense to it? Or maybe we would say that it is actually "honoring" Montanans, because it shows that Montanans are good at bar fights?
We know the modern Montana is not that.....rather it is fast becoming filled with jelly spined politically correct yuppies who are stealing the rugged and tough image many of us were so proud of. You know...people who get pissed about use of a proud mascot term like "Fighting Sioux" and stuff like that. :wink:
You actually seem to trying to argue that my theoretical misguided TV show's represenation of Montana is accruate. Now can you say that while breaking a bar bottle over the head of your cousin/father and shouting "Yee-hah?"

Ready? Action! :wink:



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Post by College Recruiter » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:38 pm

Bay Area Cat wrote:
College Recruiter wrote:
Bay Area Cat wrote:How about if there was a TV show called "Montana" in which all of the characters are supposedly located in Montana and are all inbred bigots and bumbling morons ... and they really like to get into bar fights and are really tough? Now let's assume that this is a PBS show, and receives federal funding in its production. Would you give a crap in that scenario?

Or, rather, would it be no big deal ... and would you joke about any Montanans who did take offense to it? Or maybe we would say that it is actually "honoring" Montanans, because it shows that Montanans are good at bar fights?
We know the modern Montana is not that.....rather it is fast becoming filled with jelly spined politically correct yuppies who are stealing the rugged and tough image many of us were so proud of. You know...people who get pissed about use of a proud mascot term like "Fighting Sioux" and stuff like that. :wink:
You actually seem to trying to argue that my theoretical TV show's represenation of Montana is accruate. Now can you say that while breaking a bar bottle and shouting "Yee-hah?"

Ready? Action! :wink:
If I had to choose between the two...I will take your representation rather than mine! :yes:



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Post by BWahlberg » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:50 pm

College Recruiter wrote:I have heard the Greeks are pissed about Michigan States use of the mascot "Spartans".

They feel it belittles their history of placing young Greek boys into warriorhood as early as age 7 and training them to be killers.

They want Michigan State to immediately change their name forthwith!

:rant:
But a Spartan/Greek is a nationality and not a race, also the Spartan is a historic reference of a type of people that don't exist anymore.

Where a Sioux is depicts an American Indian race that still exists today.

I suppose I see some differences...



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Post by College Recruiter » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:54 pm

A Politically-Correct Mascot: NCAA-Style

a post written by Luis F. Hess
Posted Friday, February 16, 2007 @ 4:10 PM
Is it that long-ago that the powers-that-be that oversaw sports, such as the NCAA and NBA offices, were only concerned with fair play, that athletes were held accountable for their actions on the field and off the field as far as the law was concerned, and the only thing to truly worry about was that every team had a roughly equal opportunity to recruit and create a team based on skill and ability and not steroids? Judging from today's headlines, one would believe that those times have truly passed.

Take for example the pressure (i.e., sanctions) that the NCAA has placed on the University of Illinois for having a mascot that offends less than 10% of the state's population. What could be so offensive that the NCAA would bar the university from holding any type of postseason events (e.g., a college bowl) on its own campus until the mascot was changed? Could it be a mascot that carried a sandwich billboard with vulgar, racist, or otherwise normatively repulsive comments or writings? Perhaps a sexually harassing panda? The answer: None of the above.

Instead, the NCAA sanctions were related to the appearance, and the use, of Chief Illiniwek. This particular mascot, depicted by students as a person dressed in buckskin cloths and feather hats, was found by native-american groups to be offensive to their sense of dignity or respect. How was it offensive? Was the mascot chased by cowboys and liquor store owners during games? NO. Was the mascot ever hanged or set-on fire as a means of gaining laughter from the audience at the expensive of the mascot's credibility? NO. What happened was that the mascot was used as a means of celebrating the heritage of the university and the state to the indian tribes that used to inhabit the area and, as far as the average student was concerned, the mascot was meant to strike fear into the hearts of its opponents (which did a very good job judging by the basketball team's record a couple of years back).

The larger point being is that NCAA should concern itself with what it was originally created to do - be an enforcer of fair play and conduct. Deciding what is and is not offensive, especially when it comes to a mascot that was created ALMOST A CENTURY AGO, is a judgement that the NCAA board wasn't created for. If that's the case, when do we start drawing the line of where the NCAA can interference on behalf of groups that it doesn't represent (i.e., the american-indian groups that complained about the mascot were groups that didn't belong to the university itself. Thus, by what standing can the NCAA side with this group)? If PETA finds the use of animal mascots offensive (e.g., Bevo of the University of Texas, the Eagle of Boston College, the Bruins of UCLA, etc.), will the NCAA step in and force these schools to drop their mascots for a non-offensive mascot? What if dropping the mascot is offensive to everyone else? Or is this simply the tyranny of the minority?

Lets hope other schools are able and willing to stand up to this over-arching authority. Otherwise, we may see the day that all universities scrap all mascots just to satisfy everyones demands and sensibilities.

UPDATE: Illinois students try to fight back; University Board President says no. Cites fear of offending people who don't attend university as reason for not standing up to NCAA sanctions. Students respond by announcing a search for a backbone replacement amongst possible donors. More news at 9....

UPDATE II: One university president has a spine; no duplicates available for other universities yet. Notice that animal-rights groups are already pushing to eliminate politically-incorrect mascots from univerisities. Told you that it would occur. Apparently sooner than later.

UPDATE III: Moves to eliminate the words "fighting" and "Irish" from Notre Dame. We don't want to offend the Irish now, do we?

UPDATE IV: Become politically-correct at these universities or face re-education by the NCAA!

UPDATE V: Political correctness and mascots stretches down to the high-school level.

RACISIM ALERT - Liberal academics say "If you don't believe the same way that we do, you're racist."

In all seriousness, is there any way to use stem-cell research to grow backbones for administrators in order to stand up against tyrannical over-reach by the offensive (NCAA and liberals alike) police? I'll donate my first pay check to research if it gaurantees a spinal-cord for these administrators.

Labels: free speech

http://newsbuckit.blogspot.com/2007/02/ ... style.html



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Post by WetWaderMT » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:54 pm

Its all about $$$$$



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Post by College Recruiter » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:58 pm

Re/Max Griz wrote:Where a Sioux is depicts an American Indian race that still exists today.
I think the Greeks still exist today??!!

Are there any "Fighting Sioux" today? I have not seen any of those for .....oh well...... for something like 120+ years!

Fighting Irish....OMG.....Ban It NOW!



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Post by SonomaCat » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:02 pm

WetWaderMT wrote:Its all about $$$$$
For who?

It appears that is certainly about the $$$ for UND, understandably.



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Post by SonomaCat » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:05 pm

College Recruiter wrote:
Re/Max Griz wrote:Where a Sioux is depicts an American Indian race that still exists today.
I think the Greeks still exist today??!!

Are there any "Fighting Sioux" today? I have not seen any of those for .....oh well...... for something like 120+ years!

Fighting Irish....OMG.....Ban It NOW!
If the government of Ireland filed a formal complaint against Notre Dame for its depiction of Irish people, then we'd have a conversation about that.

Until then, that mascot has no bearing on the UND mascot.

Also, please let us know when the current government of Sparta complains to Michigan State ... that should be an interesting case.



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Post by ChiOCat » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:08 pm

barechestcat wrote:My thoughts:
1) When I view a picture of the Fighting Sioux mascot, I see an honorable man. So, I don't accept the viewpoint of comparing this to an inbred show of idiots named "Montana".

2) Is it the whole "Fighting" Sioux part that upsets everyone? If the official name was just "Sioux" would that make people more happy? I have to believe when they first came up with this mascot name they were doing so to honor a local influence.

3) I guess I'll had to try and read some more to find some actual comments from tribal members on this. Perhaps I am too far removed to see where this is demeaning to them. Because right now, from my perspective, it feels like they are bent out of shape because they are not benefiting from it in any way.
Actually, they were very clear last night that it's not the money, or the additional scholarships, take those away and it's peoples integrity and history.

I don't get it, but I am happy to see them not just take the cash and walk away.

I think at this point it's all but over, they have 3 years to come to an agreement, but the UND pres has said if the tribe won't agree soon, he'll make movements to change the name.


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Post by College Recruiter » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:10 pm

Calling for a new Stanford mascot
March 4, 2005
By Darren Franich
A long time ago, we were the Stanford Indians. It was not a particularly original mascot and it wasn’t particularly exciting. More importantly, it was not a particularly politically correct mascot. And so, on one golden afternoon some three decades ago, the Stanford student body readied itself for a new era. What would we be?

Possible mascots were handed to the administration by the students, and each possibility was remarkably unique: the Thunder Chickens! The Railsplitters! The Drunken Welshmen! Finally, a front-runner emerged: the Robber Barons, a name infused with the dynamic spirit and colorful history of our university’s founder and his heartless plutocrat brethren.

The University considered the mascot problem mightily, and, in its awful majesty, refused every possibility which remotely approached fun. Instead, they opted to make our mascot . . . the color “Cardinal”! Apparently this was done to simulate the Crimson of Harvard, a University well-known for its excessive douchebaggery. Except that “Crimson” rolls off the tongue like a dynamite lollipop, whereas “Cardinal” confusingly ties the University to a boring species of bird and an even more boring species of elderly Catholic priest-administrator.

Let’s not obscure the issue: I’m a die-hard Cardinal fan. I just hate the name “Cardinal.” It doesn’t lend itself to any fun chants. It removes the possibility of having an actual mascot (I love the Tree, but he’s a genial prankster, and we need a hyped-up crowd pleaser). Worst of all, it’s incredibly bland, especially considering how fantastically weird and idiosyncratic we are here at Stanford.

Brothers! Sisters! And all the rest of you! No longer will we stand for this debased, bureaucratic mascotry! To celebrate our Pirate issue, we’re kicking off a massive, epoch-defining campaign to become what, deep down, we always have been: Robber Barons.

Article continues: http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2005/ ... fordMascot



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Post by SonomaCat » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:13 pm

ChiOCat wrote: I think at this point it's all but over, they have 3 years to come to an agreement, but the UND pres has said if the tribe won't agree soon, he'll make movements to change the name.
That would take a lot of courage and integrity on the part of the Pres, especially knowing the potential implications in terms of the arena.

But I believe it would be the right thing to do. We're still growing up as a country, and a lot of the stuff we did in the past wasn't quite right, but it's been in place so long that we don't always recognize that until we talk to people who are adversely affected by it.

To the extent that we keep making these little improvements here and there as they arise, I think we'll keep moving in the right direction.

And in 100 years, nobody will miss sports mascots named after other people's ethnic or cultural groups. They really won't. In fact, they will wonder who ever thought that was a good idea in the first place.



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Post by BWahlberg » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:14 pm

College Recruiter wrote:
Re/Max Griz wrote:Where a Sioux is depicts an American Indian race that still exists today.
I think the Greeks still exist today??!!

Are there any "Fighting Sioux" today? I have not seen any of those for .....oh well...... for something like 120+ years!

Fighting Irish....OMG.....Ban It NOW!
Greeks exist, yes. Spartans techincally don't. The city-state of Sparta is long gone.

Sioux, fighting or not, still do exist.

Again, nationality vs race. It's two different things.



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Post by SonomaCat » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:16 pm

College Recruiter wrote:Calling for a new Stanford mascot
March 4, 2005
By Darren Franich
A long time ago, we were the Stanford Indians. It was not a particularly original mascot and it wasn’t particularly exciting. More importantly, it was not a particularly politically correct mascot. And so, on one golden afternoon some three decades ago, the Stanford student body readied itself for a new era. What would we be?

Possible mascots were handed to the administration by the students, and each possibility was remarkably unique: the Thunder Chickens! The Railsplitters! The Drunken Welshmen! Finally, a front-runner emerged: the Robber Barons, a name infused with the dynamic spirit and colorful history of our university’s founder and his heartless plutocrat brethren.

The University considered the mascot problem mightily, and, in its awful majesty, refused every possibility which remotely approached fun. Instead, they opted to make our mascot . . . the color “Cardinal”! Apparently this was done to simulate the Crimson of Harvard, a University well-known for its excessive douchebaggery. Except that “Crimson” rolls off the tongue like a dynamite lollipop, whereas “Cardinal” confusingly ties the University to a boring species of bird and an even more boring species of elderly Catholic priest-administrator.

Let’s not obscure the issue: I’m a die-hard Cardinal fan. I just hate the name “Cardinal.” It doesn’t lend itself to any fun chants. It removes the possibility of having an actual mascot (I love the Tree, but he’s a genial prankster, and we need a hyped-up crowd pleaser). Worst of all, it’s incredibly bland, especially considering how fantastically weird and idiosyncratic we are here at Stanford.

Brothers! Sisters! And all the rest of you! No longer will we stand for this debased, bureaucratic mascotry! To celebrate our Pirate issue, we’re kicking off a massive, epoch-defining campaign to become what, deep down, we always have been: Robber Barons.

Article continues: http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2005/ ... fordMascot
I like the suggestion ... it would also add an element of understanding to California history to those who haven't read much about it (it's quite fascinating). It would be like the Butte Copper Kings.



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