Follow-up on Change of Seasons for Girls BB & VB
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Follow-up on Change of Seasons for Girls BB & VB
The following article was in the Lewistown newspaper today. Any thoughts or comments as it is an interesting article.
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CatFamily
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Nice job... here is the article
Change of seasons part two:
The effect on recruiting and
the college coaches view
by RYAN J. SPARKS
News-Argus Sports Editor
*Editor’s note: This is part two of a series about the effects of the change of seasons for girls’ basketball and volleyball. Last week was “The effect on the schools”. Today’s story deals with the effect on recruiting and the college coaches’ take on it. The next chapter will be Saturday, Nov. 5 and will cover high school coaches’ and community reactions and if the seasons will ever change again. Along with the third chapter will be an editorial by me about how I feel about the change.
It’s been a few years since one of the biggest controversies in Montana sports history came upon the state. In the fall of 2002, the “official” switch of girls’ basketball and girls’ volleyball occurred. The switch saw girls’ basketball moved from the fall to the winter and girls’ volleyball move from the winter to the fall.
The main reason for the change was to give Montana high school volleyball players the same opportunity to be recruited by colleges that 48 other states have. The only state that doesn’t have the seasons at the same time is Michigan, which is spending a large sum of money to keep their girls’ seasons the way they are.
In the Montana case, a Human Rights Bureau arbiter ruled that it was sexual discrimination to have the girls’ sports seasons the way they were. The arbiter ruled on the case because of a lawsuit brought on by two high school volleyball players and their parents.
The effects of the change have been both good and bad. In a previous article, local athletic directors had the opportunity to discuss the economic effects that the change has had on their respective schools and also their personal opinions on the change. The effects that the change has had on younger athletes were also discussed by the athletic directors.
This article will take a look at how the change has affected recruiting from the college coaches’ perspectives. It will feature their experiences, opinions and the effects that the change has had on their respective programs.
College recruiting struggles
In the years before the change, Montana college volleyball and girls’ basketball coaches had the convenience of having their season opposite of the high school season. For example, when high school girls’ basketball was in the fall, women’s college basketball was in the winter. This allowed for the coaches to recruit during their off-season.
Since the change, both college volleyball and women’s basketball occur during the same time as the high school sports. Now that their seasons run concurrently, college coaches have had to adjust their recruiting techniques and adapt to the change. The results have been less than pleasing for college coaches.
All college volleyball and women’s basketball coaches in Montana were given the opportunity to participate in this article. Several basketball coaches chose to, and the overall response was basically the same from all.
Only one volleyball coach chose to participate and she brought up two sides to the issue. Lisa Handley is the Head Volleyball Coach for Montana State University - Northern and also a parent of a volleyball player. When asked about how the change has affected her recruiting, she said, “As a coach, I miss being able to watch the tournaments and matches on the weekends. We are not able to attend the state tournaments either, because our conference tournament is on the same weekend as state. I don’t have a paid assistant, so I cannot send them to watch the matches that conflict with our schedule. This all makes it very hard to see in-state players and recruit them.”
Handley also gave her view as a mother. “As a mom, I would want volleyball in the fall,” said Handley. “If my child wanted to play club volleyball, which I know other states have more club teams than Montana does, she would not be able to start when some teams start. Most club teams in the nation begin in December, which conflicted with the old seasons. I want my daughter to have the same chances at joining the elite club teams and still be able to play high school volleyball.”
The many college basketball coaches who participated in the article have a different opinion about the change of seasons when it comes to recruiting. One of those is the University of Montana women’s basketball coach, Robin Selvig, who brought up several key points when talking about the change.
“Montana is one of the highest per capita in placing girls in women’s college basketball,” said Selvig. “It makes it more difficult to recruit in Montana now that the seasons have changed. It was easier to go see girls play before the change, and now a lot of recruiting is done in the summer. Now we don’t get to see as many games as we used to and now someone who is a senior and is having a really good year won’t get seen because most schools will be done with recruiting.”
Selvig continued, “I think it was a better situation before. It was easier for out-of-state schools to recruit Montana athletes before because they didn’t have a conflict with their seasons. We’re still going to know about the best girls in Montana, it’s just a little tougher now.”
Selvig’s views were shared by most of the coaches. University of Montana Western’s women’s basketball coach, Kevin Engellant, said, “The change has affected recruiting quite a bit. Now I get to see the state tournament for one day and that’s it. We’ve really had to change our methods. We rely on videotape, talking to coaches and summer tournaments to do our recruiting. I’d like to see the seasons go back to the way they were. Since the change there have been referee shortages, gym conflicts and some good high school coaches have had to choose between boys’ and girls’ basketball.”
Engellant added, “Girls’ basketball was showcased in the fall. I think girls’ basketball is still a big thing in Montana, but now it’s more difficult for the athletes, the coaches and the fans.”
Kevin Woodin, women’s basketball coach for Montana State University - Billings, brought a unique perspective to the debate because he was the varsity coach for Billings West during the change.
“I enjoyed coaching high school in the fall because you didn’t have to share the gym and it gave girls’ basketball its own identity and didn’t force our crowd to choose between two basketball teams,” said Woodin. “After the change, our following was split and attendance went down.”
Woodin’s views on recruiting difficulties are similar to that of Selvig and Engellent, and he went a little deeper into the new methods of recruiting that college coaches are forced to rely on. “It’s really hard to evaluate strictly by film,” said Woodin. “In person, you get a feel for the actual tempo of the game, their speed and a better view of their jumping ability. The camera angles from above don’t give accurate information that way. It’s just a lot easier in person when you can see the type of opponent and the feel for the game.”
Even though some college coaches feel that recruiting is more difficult now than before, most seem to realize it’s here to stay. With that said, several of them expressed their desire to switch it back. One coach, who wishes to remain anonymous, gave this opinion on moving the seasons back to where they were: “I would change them back if I could. If you’re a good enough player you’ll get recruited no matter when the season is for both volleyball and basketball. It’s hurt girls’ basketball and really hasn’t helped volleyball, so I’d like to see it switched back.”
Along with college coaches who were involved with their schools before the change, there are new ones who are starting with the change already in affect. One of those is Tricia Binford, who is in her first year as the head coach for the Montana State University Lady Bobcats. She points out the good and the bad of the change.
“The situation during the winter evaluation period has changed somewhat in that the NCAA has doubled the evaluation allotment,” said Binford. “However, with that being said, I find it will be hard for any program to utilize all 85 evaluations. To adjust to the change, the Big Sky Conference has changed Saturday games to afternoon times, which will help us see more high school games. In past experiences, Saturday afternoon times draw well for women’s sports, but it hasn’t been done in a ski community like Bozeman. I hope it doesn’t affect our attendance much.”
As for the difficulties with the change, Binford said, “As far as Montana student-athletes in general, I don’t think they have as much opportunity to get seen as other players in other states because college coaches are targeting the club teams because of the winter dilemma. Montana doesn’t have a lot of players join club teams that travel to tournaments.”
Binford also mentioned another way of recruiting through camps. “We find that we learn a lot about players’ work ethic, how quickly they pick things up, etc. by working one-on-one at our camps. We are also in the process of starting a team camp during the summer at our school that will provide us more opportunity to watch these players play.”
Although the change has been hard on NCAA and NAIA schools, it has really taken a toll on the local junior colleges in Glendive and Miles City.
Dawson Community College in Glendive was affected in another way besides recruiting. The college basketball teams currently share the Dawson County high school gym with the high school basketball teams. Now there are four teams sharing gym space at the same time.
Basketball Coach Joyce Ayre said, “Gym space makes it a little more difficult now that the seasons are at the same time. We had a need for a new gym before and now we’ll get it. It’s really compacted the season for us now, though. We’ll have to start at noon to play our college games and then the high school would play after us. All of these factors make scheduling a lot more difficult.”
Miles Community College doesn’t have the same gym problems as Dawson, but the recruiting has been just as tough as all the colleges, if not tougher. Dwight Gunnare was the head coach for Colstrip’s girls’ basketball team for over a decade before the change and is now the Miles Community College coach.
“It a serious strain on the recruiting process,” said Gunnare. “I’m only around the area recruiting because of my schedules and I can’t see players as much. It’s hurt girls’ basketball in recruiting and taken away its identity. When it was in the fall, it had its own identity. Now it’s just basketball season in the winter with boys’ basketball. Girls’ basketball deserves their own season and the fall was the best for it. We have to make the best of the situation though, because I don’t see it going back. We just have to keep adjusting.”
The responses from the other coaches who participated ran along the same lines. The difficulties in recruiting, the negative effects on the high school girls’ game and the desire for things to go back to the way they were are common ground for the majority of the coaches. Of all the college coaches who participated, only one would keep the seasons the way they are. Only time will tell if the trends will remain the same in the future.
Selvig sums up the argument for the coaches by saying, “The reason girls’ basketball was at the level it was, per capita, was because of the fall season. They had their own identity and access to quality coaches. It was a huge deal. Thankfully, it’s been strong enough to survive the change.”
In next Saturday’s edition, the views and thoughts of Central Montana high school girls’ basketball and volleyball coaches on this matter will be featured. We’ll also take a look at the community reaction to the change, as expressed by those involved with the sports, and the possibilities of the seasons ever changing back.
Change of seasons part two:
The effect on recruiting and
the college coaches view
by RYAN J. SPARKS
News-Argus Sports Editor
*Editor’s note: This is part two of a series about the effects of the change of seasons for girls’ basketball and volleyball. Last week was “The effect on the schools”. Today’s story deals with the effect on recruiting and the college coaches’ take on it. The next chapter will be Saturday, Nov. 5 and will cover high school coaches’ and community reactions and if the seasons will ever change again. Along with the third chapter will be an editorial by me about how I feel about the change.
It’s been a few years since one of the biggest controversies in Montana sports history came upon the state. In the fall of 2002, the “official” switch of girls’ basketball and girls’ volleyball occurred. The switch saw girls’ basketball moved from the fall to the winter and girls’ volleyball move from the winter to the fall.
The main reason for the change was to give Montana high school volleyball players the same opportunity to be recruited by colleges that 48 other states have. The only state that doesn’t have the seasons at the same time is Michigan, which is spending a large sum of money to keep their girls’ seasons the way they are.
In the Montana case, a Human Rights Bureau arbiter ruled that it was sexual discrimination to have the girls’ sports seasons the way they were. The arbiter ruled on the case because of a lawsuit brought on by two high school volleyball players and their parents.
The effects of the change have been both good and bad. In a previous article, local athletic directors had the opportunity to discuss the economic effects that the change has had on their respective schools and also their personal opinions on the change. The effects that the change has had on younger athletes were also discussed by the athletic directors.
This article will take a look at how the change has affected recruiting from the college coaches’ perspectives. It will feature their experiences, opinions and the effects that the change has had on their respective programs.
College recruiting struggles
In the years before the change, Montana college volleyball and girls’ basketball coaches had the convenience of having their season opposite of the high school season. For example, when high school girls’ basketball was in the fall, women’s college basketball was in the winter. This allowed for the coaches to recruit during their off-season.
Since the change, both college volleyball and women’s basketball occur during the same time as the high school sports. Now that their seasons run concurrently, college coaches have had to adjust their recruiting techniques and adapt to the change. The results have been less than pleasing for college coaches.
All college volleyball and women’s basketball coaches in Montana were given the opportunity to participate in this article. Several basketball coaches chose to, and the overall response was basically the same from all.
Only one volleyball coach chose to participate and she brought up two sides to the issue. Lisa Handley is the Head Volleyball Coach for Montana State University - Northern and also a parent of a volleyball player. When asked about how the change has affected her recruiting, she said, “As a coach, I miss being able to watch the tournaments and matches on the weekends. We are not able to attend the state tournaments either, because our conference tournament is on the same weekend as state. I don’t have a paid assistant, so I cannot send them to watch the matches that conflict with our schedule. This all makes it very hard to see in-state players and recruit them.”
Handley also gave her view as a mother. “As a mom, I would want volleyball in the fall,” said Handley. “If my child wanted to play club volleyball, which I know other states have more club teams than Montana does, she would not be able to start when some teams start. Most club teams in the nation begin in December, which conflicted with the old seasons. I want my daughter to have the same chances at joining the elite club teams and still be able to play high school volleyball.”
The many college basketball coaches who participated in the article have a different opinion about the change of seasons when it comes to recruiting. One of those is the University of Montana women’s basketball coach, Robin Selvig, who brought up several key points when talking about the change.
“Montana is one of the highest per capita in placing girls in women’s college basketball,” said Selvig. “It makes it more difficult to recruit in Montana now that the seasons have changed. It was easier to go see girls play before the change, and now a lot of recruiting is done in the summer. Now we don’t get to see as many games as we used to and now someone who is a senior and is having a really good year won’t get seen because most schools will be done with recruiting.”
Selvig continued, “I think it was a better situation before. It was easier for out-of-state schools to recruit Montana athletes before because they didn’t have a conflict with their seasons. We’re still going to know about the best girls in Montana, it’s just a little tougher now.”
Selvig’s views were shared by most of the coaches. University of Montana Western’s women’s basketball coach, Kevin Engellant, said, “The change has affected recruiting quite a bit. Now I get to see the state tournament for one day and that’s it. We’ve really had to change our methods. We rely on videotape, talking to coaches and summer tournaments to do our recruiting. I’d like to see the seasons go back to the way they were. Since the change there have been referee shortages, gym conflicts and some good high school coaches have had to choose between boys’ and girls’ basketball.”
Engellant added, “Girls’ basketball was showcased in the fall. I think girls’ basketball is still a big thing in Montana, but now it’s more difficult for the athletes, the coaches and the fans.”
Kevin Woodin, women’s basketball coach for Montana State University - Billings, brought a unique perspective to the debate because he was the varsity coach for Billings West during the change.
“I enjoyed coaching high school in the fall because you didn’t have to share the gym and it gave girls’ basketball its own identity and didn’t force our crowd to choose between two basketball teams,” said Woodin. “After the change, our following was split and attendance went down.”
Woodin’s views on recruiting difficulties are similar to that of Selvig and Engellent, and he went a little deeper into the new methods of recruiting that college coaches are forced to rely on. “It’s really hard to evaluate strictly by film,” said Woodin. “In person, you get a feel for the actual tempo of the game, their speed and a better view of their jumping ability. The camera angles from above don’t give accurate information that way. It’s just a lot easier in person when you can see the type of opponent and the feel for the game.”
Even though some college coaches feel that recruiting is more difficult now than before, most seem to realize it’s here to stay. With that said, several of them expressed their desire to switch it back. One coach, who wishes to remain anonymous, gave this opinion on moving the seasons back to where they were: “I would change them back if I could. If you’re a good enough player you’ll get recruited no matter when the season is for both volleyball and basketball. It’s hurt girls’ basketball and really hasn’t helped volleyball, so I’d like to see it switched back.”
Along with college coaches who were involved with their schools before the change, there are new ones who are starting with the change already in affect. One of those is Tricia Binford, who is in her first year as the head coach for the Montana State University Lady Bobcats. She points out the good and the bad of the change.
“The situation during the winter evaluation period has changed somewhat in that the NCAA has doubled the evaluation allotment,” said Binford. “However, with that being said, I find it will be hard for any program to utilize all 85 evaluations. To adjust to the change, the Big Sky Conference has changed Saturday games to afternoon times, which will help us see more high school games. In past experiences, Saturday afternoon times draw well for women’s sports, but it hasn’t been done in a ski community like Bozeman. I hope it doesn’t affect our attendance much.”
As for the difficulties with the change, Binford said, “As far as Montana student-athletes in general, I don’t think they have as much opportunity to get seen as other players in other states because college coaches are targeting the club teams because of the winter dilemma. Montana doesn’t have a lot of players join club teams that travel to tournaments.”
Binford also mentioned another way of recruiting through camps. “We find that we learn a lot about players’ work ethic, how quickly they pick things up, etc. by working one-on-one at our camps. We are also in the process of starting a team camp during the summer at our school that will provide us more opportunity to watch these players play.”
Although the change has been hard on NCAA and NAIA schools, it has really taken a toll on the local junior colleges in Glendive and Miles City.
Dawson Community College in Glendive was affected in another way besides recruiting. The college basketball teams currently share the Dawson County high school gym with the high school basketball teams. Now there are four teams sharing gym space at the same time.
Basketball Coach Joyce Ayre said, “Gym space makes it a little more difficult now that the seasons are at the same time. We had a need for a new gym before and now we’ll get it. It’s really compacted the season for us now, though. We’ll have to start at noon to play our college games and then the high school would play after us. All of these factors make scheduling a lot more difficult.”
Miles Community College doesn’t have the same gym problems as Dawson, but the recruiting has been just as tough as all the colleges, if not tougher. Dwight Gunnare was the head coach for Colstrip’s girls’ basketball team for over a decade before the change and is now the Miles Community College coach.
“It a serious strain on the recruiting process,” said Gunnare. “I’m only around the area recruiting because of my schedules and I can’t see players as much. It’s hurt girls’ basketball in recruiting and taken away its identity. When it was in the fall, it had its own identity. Now it’s just basketball season in the winter with boys’ basketball. Girls’ basketball deserves their own season and the fall was the best for it. We have to make the best of the situation though, because I don’t see it going back. We just have to keep adjusting.”
The responses from the other coaches who participated ran along the same lines. The difficulties in recruiting, the negative effects on the high school girls’ game and the desire for things to go back to the way they were are common ground for the majority of the coaches. Of all the college coaches who participated, only one would keep the seasons the way they are. Only time will tell if the trends will remain the same in the future.
Selvig sums up the argument for the coaches by saying, “The reason girls’ basketball was at the level it was, per capita, was because of the fall season. They had their own identity and access to quality coaches. It was a huge deal. Thankfully, it’s been strong enough to survive the change.”
In next Saturday’s edition, the views and thoughts of Central Montana high school girls’ basketball and volleyball coaches on this matter will be featured. We’ll also take a look at the community reaction to the change, as expressed by those involved with the sports, and the possibilities of the seasons ever changing back.
Montana State Fighting Bobcats reign supreme
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El_Gato
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I was a very vocal opponent to this change when it happened; it doesn't surprise me one bit to hear both HS & Collegiate coaches express the thought that it was better before the change BECAUSE THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT ALL OF US WERE SAYING.
This whole "switch" was brought about because a couple of stupid women in Missoula (shocking, I know) thought their kids were getting screwed by the old system. They never had to prove they were right, however, because the MHSA simply acquiesced; they didn't want to expend the $$$ it would have required to fight this ridiculous issue. Now, the very kids this switch was supposed to BENEFIT are actually finding it harder to obtain scholarships because coaches no longer have as much flexibility in actually watching them play & Montana's "club" system pales in comparison to other states due simply to time/distance issues.
If I remember correctly, around 80% of the HS Principals and AD's were opposed to this switch the last time it was voted on, yet these 2 dipsticks from Missoula found a sympathetic attorney (imagine my surprise) and BULLIED the MHSA into making the change.
Rial Cummings wrote an article glorifying these 2 idiots after they "won"; I emailed him several times on how un-American (a tiny minority overruling the will of the majority only due to an expensive lawsuit; way to go, Ladies!!) the whole mess was but neither he nor the 2 morons cared. Now, they've actually WORSENED the whole situation; I have no doubt they still see themselves as heroes, however, despite articles like the one here to the contrary.
This whole "switch" was brought about because a couple of stupid women in Missoula (shocking, I know) thought their kids were getting screwed by the old system. They never had to prove they were right, however, because the MHSA simply acquiesced; they didn't want to expend the $$$ it would have required to fight this ridiculous issue. Now, the very kids this switch was supposed to BENEFIT are actually finding it harder to obtain scholarships because coaches no longer have as much flexibility in actually watching them play & Montana's "club" system pales in comparison to other states due simply to time/distance issues.
If I remember correctly, around 80% of the HS Principals and AD's were opposed to this switch the last time it was voted on, yet these 2 dipsticks from Missoula found a sympathetic attorney (imagine my surprise) and BULLIED the MHSA into making the change.
Rial Cummings wrote an article glorifying these 2 idiots after they "won"; I emailed him several times on how un-American (a tiny minority overruling the will of the majority only due to an expensive lawsuit; way to go, Ladies!!) the whole mess was but neither he nor the 2 morons cared. Now, they've actually WORSENED the whole situation; I have no doubt they still see themselves as heroes, however, despite articles like the one here to the contrary.
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CatFamily
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I am right with you on that one El Gato. I know many coaches and I spoke with many of them along with AD's and what they said has come true... chances for college looks has decreased tremendously for both volleyball and basketball. Everything is either by tape now (and how much justice does a tape really do) or going to a camp at some college. It is sad... my daughter was recruited for both along with track and it was just prior to the change... she was totally against it when it happened... and there were many opportunities where she saw college recruiters in person during the seasons. Where is the justice in a system that allows two incredibly ignorant people and the small minority to prevail over the vast majority. Sad... and it would be true justice to see it changed back.
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SonomaCat
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"Stupid," "dipsticks," "idots" AND "morons." I'm only left to wonder if they are dumb or not. 
It is good to see the News Argus tackling some interesting issues. It's a refreshing change from the slightly crazy (and I do mean that literally -- I know them) geriatric letter-writing crowd that tends to dominate the opinion pages there.
And never in all of my life of reading that paper have I ever seen it held in as high regard as an authority on any state-wide issue as it is on this one. This could be the start of big new things in Lewistown.
It is good to see the News Argus tackling some interesting issues. It's a refreshing change from the slightly crazy (and I do mean that literally -- I know them) geriatric letter-writing crowd that tends to dominate the opinion pages there.
And never in all of my life of reading that paper have I ever seen it held in as high regard as an authority on any state-wide issue as it is on this one. This could be the start of big new things in Lewistown.
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bozbobcat
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to CatFamily and ElGato I was in high school during this time. In my first 3 years there, the girls' basketball attendance was great and it was a lot of fun to watch. Of course, it didn't hurt that Bozeman had some good teams. When I was a senior, they switched and the girls' attendance suffered. One reason was that the boys' basketball players supported the girls and vice versa. And for the fans, it was very hard to try to balance two high school basketball seasons and Bobcat men's and women's basketball. It was obviously great for recruting. This switch hasn't been all that great for volleyball either except that they have the fall season which gave fans something to watch when there's no football game. As much as I hate to say this, I have to agree with Selvig on this one. And on a personal note, I was not in favor of the season switch. Girls basketball in the fall was just a good situation.
GO CATS!
It's always a good day to be a Bobcat fan!
My name is Steve, if you'd like to know.
It's always a good day to be a Bobcat fan!
My name is Steve, if you'd like to know.
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El_Gato
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Sorry to offend you, BAC, but this kind of stupid BS is just another symptom of how sick this country is becoming. These 2 b#&&ches found a pro-bono attorney and bullied ALL OF US into this situation and it simply pi$$es me off.
The old system worked just fine (as a matter of fact, it worked BETTER if you believe the coaches/AD's/recruiters) yet we scrapped the whole thing over a threatened lawsuit.
My "adjectives" are simply a sign of how disgusted I am with these types of stories.
The old system worked just fine (as a matter of fact, it worked BETTER if you believe the coaches/AD's/recruiters) yet we scrapped the whole thing over a threatened lawsuit.
My "adjectives" are simply a sign of how disgusted I am with these types of stories.
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SonomaCat
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Oh, you didn't offend me ... it just made me smile. I picked on your sutble suggestions of your opinions of their intelligence ... it was funny.El_Gato wrote:Sorry to offend you, BAC, but this kind of stupid BS is just another symptom of how sick this country is becoming. These 2 b#&&ches found a pro-bono attorney and bullied ALL OF US into this situation and it simply pi$$es me off.
The old system worked just fine (as a matter of fact, it worked BETTER if you believe the coaches/AD's/recruiters) yet we scrapped the whole thing over a threatened lawsuit.
My "adjectives" are simply a sign of how disgusted I am with these types of stories.
Of course, to counter the suggestions of "un-American" and "how sick this country is becoming," it is probably worth noting that it was Montana that was out of step with the rest of the country in the first place, so although many people might not like the effect it has had in some respects within Montana, it's not like they were advocating a position that was in any way out of step with the norm in the context of America.
As to the issue itself, I can see pros and cons, and I have heard many of both from people as a result of the change. I am glad it wasn't that way when I was in high school, if only for the fact that our gym was full constantly as it was. On the other hand, I guess it would have forced our coach to have bball practices less than 3 hours. It has to be a real pain for the small schools in particular.