Need help w/ GF Tribune

catatac · Post by **catatac** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:21 am

LongTimeCatFan wrote:Jake, I think the point of our criticism is that MSU is NOT getting equal coverage. Saying that you want to provide equal coverage and doing so are two completely different things.

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Maybe I'm in the minority... but I'm not seeing it. Used to be that way IMO but not any more I don't think. I posted a few days ago about how the title font for our game day was bigger than the Griz font... as if that matters. But seriously - I think they've covered the cats quite well.

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:53 am

I enjoy the paper. "Obviously, you aren't ready to be a Bobcat." Why waste your ink on those who aren't?

LongTimeCatFan · Post by **LongTimeCatFan** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:32 am

Cat Grad wrote:I enjoy the paper. "Obviously, you aren't ready to be a Bobcat." Why waste your ink on those who aren't?

WTF are you talking about

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:41 am

LongTimeCatFan wrote:
Cat Grad wrote:I enjoy the paper. "Obviously, you aren't ready to be a Bobcat." Why waste your ink on those who aren't?
WTF are you talking about

If you have to ask, then you really ought not sit in the bleachers named after the man who used this line in recruiting visits. He'd tell a recruit that and leave.

John K · Post by **John K** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:02 am

Cat Grad wrote:
LongTimeCatFan wrote:
Cat Grad wrote:I enjoy the paper. "Obviously, you aren't ready to be a Bobcat." Why waste your ink on those who aren't?
WTF are you talking about
If you have to ask, then you really ought not sit in the bleachers named after the man who used this line in recruiting visits. He'd tell a recruit that and leave.

OK...but WTF does that have to do with this topic???

LTown Cat · Post by **LTown Cat** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:04 am

Cat Grad wrote:
LongTimeCatFan wrote:
Cat Grad wrote:I enjoy the paper. "Obviously, you aren't ready to be a Bobcat." Why waste your ink on those who aren't?
WTF are you talking about
If you have to ask, then you really ought not sit in the bleachers named after the man who used this line in recruiting visits. He'd tell a recruit that and leave.

Or, like myself, he had just never heard that before.

LongTimeCatFan · Post by **LongTimeCatFan** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:05 am

Cat Grad wrote:
LongTimeCatFan wrote:
Cat Grad wrote:I enjoy the paper. "Obviously, you aren't ready to be a Bobcat." Why waste your ink on those who aren't?
WTF are you talking about
If you have to ask, then you really ought not sit in the bleachers named after the man who used this line in recruiting visits. He'd tell a recruit that and leave.

I heard the price of rice in China is going up.

mflats · Post by **mflats** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:04 pm

Is it closer to Butte, or by bus

LongTimeCatFan · Post by **LongTimeCatFan** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:28 pm

Cat Grad wrote:
LongTimeCatFan wrote:
Cat Grad wrote:I enjoy the paper. "Obviously, you aren't ready to be a Bobcat." Why waste your ink on those who aren't?
WTF are you talking about
If you have to ask, then you really ought not sit in the bleachers named after the man who used this line in recruiting visits. He'd tell a recruit that and leave.

Good thing I don't sit or go over to the Endzone. Seriously though are ya still hungover from last night? Forget to take your meds? Fall off your wheel chair? Having a stroke? What is it? Should somebody check on you?

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:25 pm

I don't profess to be smarter than anybody else; however, there are times the void in the history of our program kind of bothers me, especially when the milestone Coach Ash is about to make falls upon those who evidently don't know much about the manner in which Coach Holland conducted himself. In fact, sometimes I'll go so far as to state there's a huge void in those writing about all things Bobcat. Coach Holland, just like Coach Ash respected not only the school, but the game. He never ran a score up nor has Coach Ash. They respected their opponents and their teammates.

Even though this tread really got sidetracked, I enjoy the Great Falls Tribune. As a kid, I delivered the Gazette for four years and also the Tribune for two of those four years and watched the Gazette lose a writer to the Cincinnati paper just before the Reds dynasty. Way back then, the papers in the state lost good writers to larger markets just as our flagship institutions lost coaches to bigger and better things. Coach Holland is still in Bozo and it appears that other place is doing something with Selvig and Tinkle. See? Everything in Montana revolves around sports.

When I was a kid, those two papers excelled at coverage of all the small schools in this state, now they've lost their identity. I would bet the circulation of the Tribune is larger out of the immediate Great Falls metro area than it is within the city limits, yet (not to the degree of the Helena or any other Lee paper) they are using the large market model. Colter recognized that and he complained about it, but his idiot bosses felt he should be limited to the Greater Gallatin Metro Area. The Helena paper is a perfect bad example and the one in the Flathead reminds me of the Pass Creek Journal from when I was a kid; e.g., "Grandma turned 96 on Sunday" or "The Smiths Family Reunion came from all over the country."

One of the best articles I read in the Great Falls paper spoke about the "Love of the Game" and never doing anything to dishonor that game. I continually preach to my own kids the necessity of fair play, act like you represent your family and all of them who wore the uniform before you, play fair, but if they treat you like dirt, reciprocate. Consider the source and the consequences before erroneously choosing to beat them into submission. Only after you've been mocked, ridiculed and laughed at in and around all public settings or across the line of scrimmage should you resort to silly antics. I still am struck by that article and the number of kids one of our area teams hurt and the way they hurt those kids. But, when the powers that be have as part of a tie breaker formula margin of victory, that entire sense of fair play goes out the window. I still have a hard time accepting the MHSA uses that as part of their formula.

Some of the most significant events in the history of Montana State University football is unfolding before our very eyes and as I stated, you need to learn a little about the history of this coach. He is Montana State football and nobody should have to explain any of his quotes. Jesus! And back to the local rag: how much coverage did it provide to largest Drug Bust in Montana and Canadian history? None. They don't want to pizz the city fathers off and lose the tainted canuck money.

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:28 pm

Plus you evidently spend way too much time around all your grissly friends.

John K · Post by **John K** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:44 pm

Cat Grad wrote:I don't profess to be smarter than anybody else; however, there are times the void in the history of our program kind of bothers me, especially when the milestone Coach Ash is about to make falls upon those who evidently don't know much about the manner in which Coach Holland conducted himself. In fact, sometimes I'll go so far as to state there's a huge void in those writing about all things Bobcat. Coach Holland, just like Coach Ash respected not only the school, but the game. He never ran a score up nor has Coach Ash. They respected their opponents and their teammates.

Even though this tread really got sidetracked, I enjoy the Great Falls Tribune. As a kid, I delivered the Gazette for four years and also the Tribune for two of those four years and watched the Gazette lose a writer to the Cincinnati paper just before the Reds dynasty. Way back then, the papers in the state lost good writers to larger markets just as our flagship institutions lost coaches to bigger and better things. Coach Holland is still in Bozo and it appears that other place is doing something with Selvig and Tinkle. See? Everything in Montana revolves around sports.

When I was a kid, those two papers excelled at coverage of all the small schools in this state, now they've lost their identity. I would bet the circulation of the Tribune is larger out of the immediate Great Falls metro area than it is within the city limits, yet (not to the degree of the Helena or any other Lee paper) they are using the large market model. Colter recognized that and he complained about it, but his idiot bosses felt he should be limited to the Greater Gallatin Metro Area. The Helena paper is a perfect bad example and the one in the Flathead reminds me of the Pass Creek Journal from when I was a kid; e.g., "Grandma turned 96 on Sunday" or "The Smiths Family Reunion came from all over the country."

One of the best articles I read in the Great Falls paper spoke about the "Love of the Game" and never doing anything to dishonor that game. I continually preach to my own kids the necessity of fair play, act like you represent your family and all of them who wore the uniform before you, play fair, but if they treat you like dirt, reciprocate. Consider the source and the consequences before erroneously choosing to beat them into submission. Only after you've been mocked, ridiculed and laughed at in and around all public settings or across the line of scrimmage should you resort to silly antics. I still am struck by that article and the number of kids one of our area teams hurt and the way they hurt those kids. But, when the powers that be have as part of a tie breaker formula margin of victory, that entire sense of fair play goes out the window. I still have a hard time accepting the MHSA uses that as part of their formula.

Some of the most significant events in the history of Montana State University football is unfolding before our very eyes and as I stated, you need to learn a little about the history of this coach. He is Montana State football and nobody should have to explain any of his quotes. Jesus! And back to the local rag: how much coverage did it provide to largest Drug Bust in Montana and Canadian history? None. They don't want to pizz the city fathers off and lose the tainted canuck money.

I fully agree with you that it's important to know and understand the history of Boccat football, but I'm still a little fuzzy as to how you're connecting that to the topic at hand, i.e. the fairness and quality of the GF Tribune's coverage of MSU football.

Cat Grad · Post by **Cat Grad** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:59 pm

JK: I simply think it's the size of the market and the fact that they only have a couple of kids writing, and I blame it in part on that idiotic old "institution bias" discrimination thingy. MSU does not have it's own journalism school and like most 25-40 year-old-kids they are going to go back to that which they are familiar with, which happens to be a couple hundred miles west of Bozo. Just like young coaches with no connection to the school, writers are going to hit the bricks as soon as a better offer comes along, with the exception of what the Tribune had with Geise and Mansch putting down roots in Great Falls.

And to be honest, I'm not too particular when it comes to the fact that they may write five to five hundred more words about that other place than they do about the Cats. When I go to the talks by the coaches, I get more in five minutes of real value than what a newspaper writer or television analyst says. Sometimes such as no safety help a kid or two looks bad, but only the coach can address that. I like the human interest stories about the kids, but that's about it. Pretty neat to have the coach break down a play and point out what actually happened rather than read some of the stuff, actually. (Especially in here

LongTimeCatFan · Post by **LongTimeCatFan** » Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:29 pm

Cat Grad, I knew you were talking about Holland from when he spoke at the BC banquet 2 years ago. He was speaking about a certain recruit up here. The point all of us are making is that we're not sure what that has to do with either paper or the writers or even Colter(which in itself is a stretch). Even after your most recent reply to John K (who sits right in front of me) I still am having trouble making the connection. Try to make a coherent thought would ya?

Oh and what do my Griz friends have to do with anything?

utucats · Post by **utucats** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:07 pm

Jake_Sorich wrote:So I am a writer with the Great Falls Tribune, and a former sports staffer. (I was laid off in 2008 and rehired in a new position in 2009.)

Firstly,
We at the Trib understand the frustrations with our sports section, along with all of our sections. Some of the frustrations that have been expressed here are felt by our sports staff, Scott, Jesse and Daniel, as well.

Before Curt Backa died, we had five full-time workers in the sports department and one part-timer. Now we have three full timers and a part timer. Curt was never replaced and my position as copy editor was never filled.
It is what it is.

We've also started using a design system where our pages are put together at a regional hub in Phoenix. That is what it is, too. It's made some things challenging, but we're journalists and our job is to adapt to the hand we're dealt.

We're living in a different time with different realities than even a few years ago in the media biz. And it's the same everywhere, not just the Tribune or the Chronicle.

As for our sports staff, I think we have three talented writers who are capable of great things.
I still have hope that someday we'll see the light at the end of the tunnel and come out stronger. We shall see.

The personal attacks here on Jesse and Daniel quite frankly are rude and classless. While part of being a journalist is opening yourself to public criticisms, as a human being your first instinct is to take it personally.
And while you weren't insulting me, I still took the insults of Daniel and Jesse personally. I expected better from my fellow Montanans. I'd advise ya'll to keep an open mind and realize there might be things going on that you're not privy to.

As for Colter, I never met him, but what happened here stinks.
I think many journalists have felt similar things at times throughout their careers. I'm not one to judge anyone, but if I were playing devil's advocate, I would say it was the way he expressed his opinion that led to his downfall more than the content of what he said.
He's a fine writer and I'm sure he'll find a job somewhere. The Chronicle lost a great writer but I can't really blame them too much for doing what they did. It was harsh, perhaps, but not totally unwarranted in my opinion. It sucks how it happened, but it did and all you can do is learn from it.

Finally, for those of you who said the Trib is biased toward the Griz -- we've been accused of being biased toward both schools, often at the same time. When I worked in sports, from day one George and Scott made it known that both schools deserve equal coverage. Our sports department still follows that belief toward all schools and sports we cover.

We do the best we can with the resources we're given. That's all there is to it.

Jake Sorich

I am glad you took these comments personally. I pay the Trib monthly to receive their paper and as a customer I believe I have the right to complain when you and your coworkers have their heads up their a$$. The fact is the Griz suck and the Cats don't. Seems pretty easy to give equal coverage to the best team in the state.

I haven't quit subscribing but maybe I should if you can't handle the criticism.

MashTun · Post by **MashTun** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:37 pm

utucats wrote:
Jake_Sorich wrote:So I am a writer with the Great Falls Tribune, and a former sports staffer. (I was laid off in 2008 and rehired in a new position in 2009.)

Firstly,
We at the Trib understand the frustrations with our sports section, along with all of our sections. Some of the frustrations that have been expressed here are felt by our sports staff, Scott, Jesse and Daniel, as well.

Before Curt Backa died, we had five full-time workers in the sports department and one part-timer. Now we have three full timers and a part timer. Curt was never replaced and my position as copy editor was never filled.
It is what it is.

We've also started using a design system where our pages are put together at a regional hub in Phoenix. That is what it is, too. It's made some things challenging, but we're journalists and our job is to adapt to the hand we're dealt.

We're living in a different time with different realities than even a few years ago in the media biz. And it's the same everywhere, not just the Tribune or the Chronicle.

As for our sports staff, I think we have three talented writers who are capable of great things.
I still have hope that someday we'll see the light at the end of the tunnel and come out stronger. We shall see.

The personal attacks here on Jesse and Daniel quite frankly are rude and classless. While part of being a journalist is opening yourself to public criticisms, as a human being your first instinct is to take it personally.
And while you weren't insulting me, I still took the insults of Daniel and Jesse personally. I expected better from my fellow Montanans. I'd advise ya'll to keep an open mind and realize there might be things going on that you're not privy to.

As for Colter, I never met him, but what happened here stinks.
I think many journalists have felt similar things at times throughout their careers. I'm not one to judge anyone, but if I were playing devil's advocate, I would say it was the way he expressed his opinion that led to his downfall more than the content of what he said.
He's a fine writer and I'm sure he'll find a job somewhere. The Chronicle lost a great writer but I can't really blame them too much for doing what they did. It was harsh, perhaps, but not totally unwarranted in my opinion. It sucks how it happened, but it did and all you can do is learn from it.

Finally, for those of you who said the Trib is biased toward the Griz -- we've been accused of being biased toward both schools, often at the same time. When I worked in sports, from day one George and Scott made it known that both schools deserve equal coverage. Our sports department still follows that belief toward all schools and sports we cover.

We do the best we can with the resources we're given. That's all there is to it.

Jake Sorich
I am glad you took these comments personally. I pay the Trib monthly to receive their paper and as a customer I believe I have the right to complain when you and your coworkers have their heads up their a$$. The fact is the Griz suck and the Cats don't. Seems pretty easy to give equal coverage to the best team in the state.

I haven't quit subscribing but maybe I should if you can't handle the criticism.

Up to this year the coverage of Cats/Griz was pretty good and even IMHO. This, even with "grizzly george" on staff.

This year that is not the case. Case in point the games UM and MSU played with North Dakota.

A week after the Griz lost to North Dakota, the trib carries the story of a griz home victory at the top of page, on the same day the cats DESTROY North Dakota is on the bottom of the page. Keep in mind Cats are highly ranked and the griz aren't even in the top 25.

Really? I can't imagine the though process used in arriving at that layout. With that type of thinking the Cats could win the chipper, and on the same day the Trib would run an article giving the griz the top of the page about NOT making the playoffs.

Bobcatsinmso · Post by **Bobcatsinmso** » Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:30 pm

News papers in hard print, like the dinosaurs will eventually become extinct. US news and business report, gone. Newsweek will cease hard copy at the end of the year. Time Magazine will be next. As hard print editions see their advertising revenue continue to decline, subscriptions continue to decline, the print media will transform into single statewide coverage and look to cut costs and cut payroll. Message boards, blogs, social media and the like will become the leading source of real time information. Say hello to the new news world order.

Rich K · Post by **Rich K** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:51 am

Trib Guy wrote:

Finally, for those of you who said the Trib is biased toward the Griz -- we've been accused of being biased toward both schools, often at the same time. When I worked in sports, from day one George and Scott made it known that both schools deserve equal coverage. Our sports department still follows that belief toward all schools and sports we cover.

So let me get this straight. You want to be treated in a professional manner and this (trying to equalize complaints) is what you use to determine if your work has a bias? Same amaturish reasoning that today's journalista use in the political arena. This is akin to sticking your finger in the air.

Common Cat · Post by **Common Cat** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:08 pm

Good coverage today

Post by **SonomaCat** » Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:13 pm

Rich K wrote:Trib Guy wrote:
Finally, for those of you who said the Trib is biased toward the Griz -- we've been accused of being biased toward both schools, often at the same time. When I worked in sports, from day one George and Scott made it known that both schools deserve equal coverage. Our sports department still follows that belief toward all schools and sports we cover.
So let me get this straight. You want to be treated in a professional manner and this (trying to equalize complaints) is what you use to determine if your work has a bias? Same amaturish reasoning that today's journalista use in the political arena. This is akin to sticking your finger in the air.

We all know what he means ... and it makes sense. We all know that no matter what these guys do, people with strong biases on both sides will accuse them of being biased in favor of the "other side."

In other words, the last people who should be trying to determine whether there is a bias or not are those with an declared and passionate bias.

This applies to sports, politics, or dog shows.