Time for Fish to go!

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Re: Time for Fish to go!

Post by bobcat99 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:58 am

Coaching collegiate sports is a grind, especially at our small level.

You're out there selling your soul to recruits, working awful hours, getting paid pennies on the dollar for what you do. I can't imagine many jobs worse than that. Especially hard for former stars. You're a name brand star and you have to suck up to some 17 year old diva? Good luck. And Stockton hates the spotlight.



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Re: Time for Fish to go!

Post by RickRund » Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:27 am

bobcat99 wrote:MSU is one of the few teams in the Big Sky that has a player with a legitimate shot at the NBA. And we still suck. Fish has obviously recruited some good players, but by and large, he's been bad.

I mean, we signed a guy who was shooting under 40% from the field in JUCO! That's terrible. We don't have any post play. None. I get that it's hard to find good posts, but I don't want excuses, I want results. His coaching style also isn't conducive to getting big guys. We just run around and chuck up 3's...and I like 3's! I understand that basketball is changing, but at the very least we need a rim protector. Sam battles his ass off, but he's not a rim protector. Teams can score at will inside on us. It's awful.

Fish will either be fired this year or won't be extended next year. Dude is done. Fin. Over.
Sure wish I knew how to highlight "and I like 3's". Yes, nothing much more exciting than having a guy come down the court and pop four or five straight threes to put his/her team back in the game. But if you have a poor inside game then you can just as easily die by those same three point attempts.
As in baseball some people don't always like a pitcher that they call "a guy that eats innings", but it would be nice to have a decent long body at the basket to be at least imposing. Then again, I am no expert, but so many say that is not Fish's game. So we then die by those threes.


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Re: Time for Fish to go!

Post by wapiti » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:08 pm

bobcat99 wrote:Coaching collegiate sports is a grind, especially at our small level.

You're out there selling your soul to recruits, working awful hours, getting paid pennies on the dollar for what you do. I can't imagine many jobs worse than that. Especially hard for former stars. You're a name brand star and you have to suck up to some 17 year old diva? Good luck. And Stockton hates the spotlight.
Maybe we could get Stockton to come aboard as an assistant coach. He could coach BB IQ and BB strategy and could meet and greet recruits that visit. (and let the recruits get selfie with him.)



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Re: Time for Fish to go!

Post by John K » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:15 pm

wapiti wrote:
bobcat99 wrote:Coaching collegiate sports is a grind, especially at our small level.

You're out there selling your soul to recruits, working awful hours, getting paid pennies on the dollar for what you do. I can't imagine many jobs worse than that. Especially hard for former stars. You're a name brand star and you have to suck up to some 17 year old diva? Good luck. And Stockton hates the spotlight.
Maybe we could get Stockton to come aboard as an assistant coach. He could coach BB IQ and BB strategy and could meet and greet recruits that visit. (and let the recruits get selfie with him.)
I don't think Stockton has any interest in being a college assistant or head coach at MSU, or anywhere else. When he coached for MSU that one season a couple of years ago, that was just a "one off" thing, with his daughter playing for us, and with us being in a bind because of losing an assistant right before the season was about to start.



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Re: Time for Fish to go!

Post by Cledus » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:44 pm

bobcat99 wrote:MSU is one of the few teams in the Big Sky that has a player with a legitimate shot at the NBA. And we still suck. Fish has obviously recruited some good players, but by and large, he's been bad.

I mean, we signed a guy who was shooting under 40% from the field in JUCO! That's terrible. We don't have any post play. None. I get that it's hard to find good posts, but I don't want excuses, I want results. His coaching style also isn't conducive to getting big guys. We just run around and chuck up 3's...and I like 3's! I understand that basketball is changing, but at the very least we need a rim protector. Sam battles his ass off, but he's not a rim protector. Teams can score at will inside on us. It's awful.

Fish will either be fired this year or won't be extended next year. Dude is done. Fin. Over.
That just reinforces my point that when you know you're going to fire someone there's no point in waiting around. Just get it done and move on.


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Re: Time for Fish to go!

Post by Cledus » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:48 pm

John K wrote:
wapiti wrote:
bobcat99 wrote:Coaching collegiate sports is a grind, especially at our small level.

You're out there selling your soul to recruits, working awful hours, getting paid pennies on the dollar for what you do. I can't imagine many jobs worse than that. Especially hard for former stars. You're a name brand star and you have to suck up to some 17 year old diva? Good luck. And Stockton hates the spotlight.
Maybe we could get Stockton to come aboard as an assistant coach. He could coach BB IQ and BB strategy and could meet and greet recruits that visit. (and let the recruits get selfie with him.)
I don't think Stockton has any interest in being a college assistant or head coach at MSU, or anywhere else. When he coached for MSU that one season a couple of years ago, that was just a "one off" thing, with his daughter playing for us, and with us being in a bind because of losing an assistant right before the season was about to start.
He's participated in coaching his kids to some degree as they've grown up. He still has a son in high school. There is absolutely zero percent chance he comes back to MSU unless his son comes here.


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Re: Time for Fish to go!

Post by WalkOn79 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:49 pm

John K wrote:
mslacat wrote:
John K wrote:
Catlady wrote:
catpound wrote:Sprinkle!! It's time we bring him home to lead his alma mater, plus he's got a great recruiting connection on the West Coast.
There are great coaches out there that are looking to lead a program like MSU. Have to be able to recruit. I’m not sure if West Coast is as important as winning recruiting in Montana, Colorado, Minnesota, Iowa and Illinois. Easier to sell a kid on Montana State from those states versus the West Coast. I love our players, but don’t feel we need to go to Europe to find them. Dirden seems to be doing well and does have contacts throughout the Midwest.

I like to look two years out and have to admit, I don’t see the foundation for a turnaround.
I don't care what area(s) we choose to emphasize in recruiting, Europe (Gonzaga has certainly had lots of success recruiting foreign players), midwest, west coast, wherever. Ash and Gaines had great success in recruiting football talent from Texas, which is an area that was completely off our radar previously. There is talent to be found everywhere...it's just a matter of selling them on MSU. I'm not naive enough to think that it's an easy task, but if EWU, UI, UM, and WSU can get top notch talent to come to places like Cheney WA, Moscow ID, Missoula MT, and Ogden UT, there is no reason that we shouldn't be able to get equally talented players to come to Bozeman MT. It's funny how some people seem to believe that we are plenty talented, and that the lack of success is primarily due to poor coaching, while others say that it's mostly an issue of inadequate talent (which of course also falls on the coaching staff). I don't even pretend to be enough of an expert to offer an opinion on that...I just know that the results are sorely lacking, and frankly that's all that really matters. UM is a much better team than us...they're clearly the best team in the BSC this season, so I certainly didn't expect us to beat them in Missoula, but I expected to at least compete better than we did last Saturday. It was really discouraging to see what appeared to be a lack of effort on our part during most of the 2nd half, once we fell behind by 15-20 early in the 2nd half. There is no excuse for that, and that is on the coaching staff. I'd give Fish one more year, but if we aren't at least .500 in conference next season, then I'd say it's time to make a change.

For whatever it's worth, I felt like the women displayed a similar lack of effort, once the game started getting away from them in the 3rd quarter. After losing Ferris and Nordgaard, I didn't necessarily expect MSU to win the BSC again, but I certainly expected them to be better than sitting in 8th place with only a .500 record (8-8, but only 1-5 in the last 6 games). We beat UM by 17 a month ago, and lost by 24 on Saturday. A 41 point differential in a month...how do you explain that? I mean there has to be more to it than simply that one game was in Bozeman and the other was in Missoula.

The cumulative margin in the two games on Saturday was 51 points. That has to be a record. For the first time since these two (men's) teams first set foot on a basketball court together, UM now leads the all time series. That is certainly a dubious little historical footnote to add to the humiliation that MSU suffered on Saturday. We held the lead in the series for more than 100 years...but not any longer, and we probably will never lead it again. Obviously that's not all on Fish, but it does say a lot about the disparity between the 2 programs in recent years. Well...not even all that recent. They've consistently had the upper hand for as long as I can remember, which is about 40 years.
What do you see in the program, that gives you ANY optimism that next year team can be significantly better than this years team! I see a rebuild even if Tyler comes back! Fish has painted himself into a corner, I could see some optimism when the incoming freshman next year get a year or two under their belt. That though will be too late he has only one more year on his contract, that means next year or the road! The way I see it, Fish will struggle with the scholarships he has left just to make up for what he loses in seniors this spring!
One issue I've had with the program over the past 15-20 years is the reliance on transfers, which predates Fish. I believe the trend began during the latter part of Durham's tenure, and has continued through the Huse and Fish regimes. I just don't think that's a recipe for long term success. I know that you might need to add 1 or 2 transfers some years, but I really believe we've gone to that well far too often lately. It seems to me that Starner's best teams in the mid to late 80's, and Durham's best teams in the mid to late 90's didn't have nearly as many transfers as we've had in recent years. I know that when a coach is under pressure to win sooner rather than later, that it's very tempting to go for the short term fix, but I just think that 4-5 year players need to be the foundation of a program (for schools competing at our level anyway) if it's going to have sustained success over the long haul. Between relying on so many transfers, and the seemingly never ending stream of player defections (that's also not unique to the Fish era), there is no continuity in the program. How many players on the roster this season have been, or likely will be 4-5 year players? My guess is that it's probably less than half, considering that pretty much every year we seem to lose 1 or 2 players off the team during the off season (other than those who completed their eligibility). That means that of the 4-5 year players currently on the roster, several of them won't actually end up playing 4-5 years for MSU. Obviously this isn't the only problem, but I do believe it's been a factor in the decline of the program over the last 20 years or so.

And to answer your question at the beginning of your post, I have very little confidence that we'll be significantly better next season.
Player defections have been killer. Not sure who that's on but the two most recent were weird. It's led me to question how good are we at judging Character or Talent?


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Re: Time for Fish to go!

Post by WalkOn79 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:00 pm

technoCat wrote:I'm really frustrated with Fish and the team right now but I'm pretty sure he will get another year and he probably deserves it. This is the first year we've taken a step back and have looked good during stretches. I think if he could put anything together in the tournament it would really help his case. I really hope that he will get things turned around because I see potential. He just needs to refine his demeanor and let his kids play a bit more. It would also help if he would be a bit more flexible in how he thinks the 5 spot should be played.
If we can't recruit a big then we're in trouble again. That's my only real knock on Brian. Most of the other BSC contenders this year have a post presence.


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Re: Time for Fish to go!

Post by WalkOn79 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:09 pm

Hawks86 wrote:
Colter_Nuanez wrote:[

Facilties and coaching.

.
The fieldhouse is that much of a detriment?
I don't believe it is. The atmosphere at a packed Brick is awesome! We just only see it full once a year :)


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Re: Time for Fish to go!

Post by John K » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:13 pm

WalkOn79 wrote:
Hawks86 wrote:
Colter_Nuanez wrote:[

Facilties and coaching.

.
The fieldhouse is that much of a detriment?
I don't believe it is. The atmosphere at a packed Brick is awesome! We just only see it full once a year :)
I don't believe so either. I've never been to any of the other arenas in the BSC except for Adams Fieldhouse, but I have to believe that it's one of the better facilities in our conference, except for Adams and Dee Events Center in Ogden.



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Re: Time for Fish to go!

Post by WalkOn79 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:22 pm

CatBlitz wrote:
MSU01 wrote:
Cat_gld wrote:What rationale is there for giving Fish another year? Will another year yield a different result in the post season? Three straight years of one-and-done in Reno. The seemingly obvious answer for the Fish apologists is wash, rinse and repeat in Boise. Enjoy your empty Brick as well! I just don't see Cruzado and Costello putting up with this.
It's important to remember that Fish was not a Costello hire, and Costello really hasn't had a chance yet to make his own hire in a major sport. Costello's old school SDSU has a great basketball program currently coached by T.J. Otzelberger (who was of course a candidate at MSU when Fish was hired). If Costello has someone in mind, whether a SDSU guy or someone he has connections with who he likes, I won't be surprised if there's a change. The only rationale at this point for giving Fish another year is...well, maybe I'll think of something later.
Agreed
Money would be one point.


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Re: Time for Fish to go!

Post by WalkOn79 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:35 pm

technoCat wrote:
wbtfg wrote:I think fish gets one more year to finish up his contract, then at that point if he doesn’t have a top two or three finish, he is done.


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I'd be more than happy with a top 5 finish and a tournament win with it looking like we will improve next year(good recruits).
Me too. Just win a tourney game or two, and compete EVERY night!


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Re: Time for Fish to go!

Post by WalkOn79 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:24 pm

phantom wrote:
Cledus wrote:
Be a grown up and disclose your relationship to Fish. You're the only one here defending his record and your BN join date is within a week of him being hired. Anyone with common sense can see that's not a weird coincidence.
Be a grown up? On the day I joined, I said I've known Fish for a lot of years. MSLACAT questioned me about it a with in the last month and I addressed it then. As I said to him and I'll tell you, I have known him through coaching circles for many years. I have many friends throughout the country and over the years have seen programs try different things. Some places can't get out of their own way because they keep changing administration, fan bases are never patient and that makes it tough to build because progress is seldom linear and the impatient fan bases want to change coaches right away. That's how struggling programs stay struggling. Look at this situation ... there were three years where everyone agreed there was progress. This year was a mess and now, people are revising history to say all four years have been a failure. Again, it's why struggling programs continue to struggle. If people like you get their way, Hall leaves, possibly Frey, the team will be awful next year, but people will be happy because it's a different coach and he needs time. Then, when you have to bring large numbers of players in, you'll have attrition because you won't hit as frequently as you would like. Then, complaints will start about the inability to retain people. It's a cycle.
Agree that there are many revisionists on this thread. This year is a dumpster fire, but up until about January 1st I think most of us thought we were progressing in the right direction over the past 4 years. Some of the antics were wearing thin, but the team was playing hard and beating quality teams. The regression can't all be placed on one guy.


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Re: Time for Fish to go!

Post by WalkOn79 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:33 pm

mslacat wrote:OK here is a question to ponder. If Fish returns next year to complete his contract what do you think he has to or needs to do to improve this team, and earn a new contract, given the players and resources he currently has at MSU. Since I asked the question here I will take a shot at it.

#1 He needs an X's and O's guy on his staff. I would make room so I could fill at least one good paying (for Big Sky school) assistant coaching position and hire a seasoned veteran coach that could bring fresh ideas to to the offence and defense. This will only work if Fish lets his ego take a little hit and realize you can always learn new things and improve yourself and the team.

#2 I would sign as good of high school Point guard as I could. True point guard. With the two remaining scholarships, forget about signing a JC wing and and sign two JC big Guys. We signed 3 high school wings this fall trust one or two of those can make a contribution next year and fill the gap of the seniors graduating. We need an immediate impact player who can rebounding, and be a physical presence in the post more than we need to replace Mvuezolo. I would rather the incoming freshman try to fill that gap as reserves and sign a starting big man. Of course this idea of signing two JC big only works if Fish can trust the big men he signs and change his schemes enough that a Big Sky caliber big man can play for him.

Reasoning: In my opinion Fish has painted himself into a corner with the young guys he has in or coming to the program. The team is out of balance position wise. It also has no confidence in the offence or defense Fish is playing. It does not matter who Fish signed this fall or who he could possibly sign this spring, unless he makes some big changes to the program (most importantly trust and X's and O's) there is no way to expect that this team to improve on this year team.

Am I off base? Do you think we need to do something else?
100% in agreement with all of this! Good Post =D^ =D^ =D^


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Re: Time for Fish to go!

Post by WalkOn79 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:42 pm

phantom wrote:
Bobcat4Ever wrote:
phantom wrote:
I'm not just throwing darts at the wall in regards to Hall. As far as why he would leave, he's seen a fan base turn against the coach that he came to Bozeman to play for and his team in a year after they supported them the last two years. In a very down year, he averaged 17.5 points a game. You may be wanting to knock Tyler, but read this board. He's been called selfish, lazy and someone posted that maybe he lost his love of the game.
I have my thoughts on why this year went sideways, but I'm not going to knock individual players, but I think there were some offense killers on the team that hurt Tyler and Harry offensively. When a guy is in the top 10 all-time scoring in the Big Sky, it's a little strange to suggest they don't know how to use him, isn't it?
I like your term "offense killers." But shouldn’t the coach have some/more control over them? Not arguing, just asking.
I'm not disagreeing with you, which is where I said I think mistakes were made. I thought late in the year last year, I saw jealousies in regards to offense and guys trying to "get theirs". At that point, I thought Q was the main culprit. Mind you, this is strictly my observation, watching the games on the computer. Fish and I aren't close to the point where we talk a lot or talk about the team and games. However, from the get go this year, I thought there were too many trips in every game where the wrong people were "hunting shots" and points which led to inconsistency offensively. Not that you don't need balance offensively, but I thought it led to a lack of flow and identity offensively. It wasn't the system, it was the approach in my opinion. It hurt Harry and Tyler the most because if the offense is run right, the best players get the most looks, which is what happened in years 1-3.
I agree some of this, but Q wasn't the culprit last year. He was the catalyst as far as I'm concerned.


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Re: Time for Fish to go!

Post by BobcatFan68 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:30 pm

Cataholic wrote:
phantom wrote:
Cataholic wrote:So assuming Costello has someone in mind, it would seem that they could talk to Hall about a smooth transition. They can reassure Hall that the offense will be designed around him to get him 20 shots a game. If I was Hall, that is much more appealing than sitting out a year and going to a new program with different players and other unknowns. Doesn’t seem to be too hard a sell for a competent coach. Hall should be able to average 25 a game and improve his stock for the pros. Win-win situation.
Tyler is a very loyal kid and chose Montana State because of his relationship with Coach Fish. If you're going to play one year with different players and a new program, why stay and do it in a place that fired the guy you chose to play for?
Don’t forget, Hall is also loyal to his teammates. I ran into him at Old Chicago with a bunch of teammates and he was talking about how close they are as friends.
Than why stay (Hall) at all- Fish or no Fish, if there is no chance for this team to turn it around? Would it not be better for him as a player and his career to leave? He would get a year to fit in with another team rather than stay at MSU that has a "difficult culture" for coaches to recruit.



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Re: Time for Fish to go!

Post by BobcatFan68 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:03 pm

Cledus wrote:Who here, knowing what you know RIGHT NOW about Fish, would hire him if he were to apply as a head coach at a university where you are the athletic director?
Actually, he would get hired. He took a program as someone said that was on "life support" and made huge improvements. Yes, this year was a disaster but that is the nature of the business and if he left right now he would get a job. It would be interesting to know what happened, but my guess would be "internal" issues. Just watch the game, watch what was considered the best duo in league not take shots, watch one guy take all the shots, watch the bench, watch the assistant coaches--something was going on-and it was not good. It could be the head coach, assistant coaches, infectious attitudes or just a team that was having a hard time getting it together. But for someone who goes or watches every game, it bothers me that people on this board think that team did not play hard every game. Sometimes you can play as hard as you can and the outcome is still not a W.



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Re: Time for Fish to go!

Post by duelalumnicat » Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:26 pm

I agree with BobcatFan68. I attended most of the home games, and I thought that, for the most part, the Cats played hard at least until the game in question was out of reach. And I also agree with BobcatFan68 that the team has "internal issues." In retrospect, doesn't it seem crazy that both prized freshman recruits quit within a two or three week period at the end of the semester? How does that happen?



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Re: Time for Fish to go!

Post by mslacat » Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:32 pm

Fish is a great recruiter if he was let go from MSU he would have a good paying job with a very good program before summer hits. I am not saying this because I want him to return or not just the fact that he is very well respected as a assistant coach and he has had offers to join other programs since he took the Montana State job


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Re: Time for Fish to go!

Post by BelgradeBobcat » Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:40 pm

duelalumnicat wrote:How does that happen?
It's Bobcat basketball. If it can go wrong, it will go wrong-in the most improbable ways. ](*,)



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