Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

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mslacat
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Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by mslacat » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:46 pm

OK This conversation is going on the “2018 recruiting” I wanted to touch on this and expand but I thought I would start its own thread so as to not bog down that thread.

It used to be that The State of Montana would produce at least one D-1 basketball player a year and Montana State and Montana would be in a dog fight to get that player. Every couple years there would be two and once about every 5-6 year we could have as many as 3 players would be signed from Montana. Additionally, back then 90-95% of all the D-1 caliber Montana high school players stayed in State and went to either MSU or UM Occasionally a guy from Bozeman would go to Kansas St or a Butte Guy of Mormon decent would go to Brigham Young but most would stay in state. These were not tweaner D-1 talent these were solid D-1 talents. As a matter of fact most of these players would go on to be the stars of the Big Sky Conference. Go back from the mid to late 90’s and back and look at the yearly Big Sky Conference all conference teams and you will find former Montana high school stars all over those selections. For a state with such a small population base as Montana is was amazing the number of all Big Sky conference players there were.

In the Mid to Late 90’s things started to change, and the number of D-1 caliber Montana recruits started to dwindle. We could go 2-3 year without anyone getting recruited by a D-1 team. Then once a solid D-1 recruit did pop up and started to get attention the better ones would sign out of state. Occasionally we would get a Bobby Howard and Derek Selby, but it was a rare occasion when either school signed a Montana kid to a scholarship. I asked Danny Sprinkle once, right after he left Huse’s coaching staff, did the rest of the county’s basketball players just get better than Montana’s kids or were than Montana Kids simply not as good as they once were. Danny was quite clear, that in his opinions that the current (mid 2000) Montana Players simply were not as good the Hatler’s, Leachman’s, Browne’s or even himself. Those guys, he felt could still be big time players for UM or MSU even today. A couple years later I asked Huse the same question and he basically said the same thing, but went on to say that Montana kids have turned to a football and most of the really great athletes are going in that direction, and that could be a contributor to why the numbers of D-1 prospects are down in number, but not in quality. He pointed out player like Josh Huestis prove Montana could produce good basketball players if enough of them took it on as their major sport.

I should also point out that something that has hurt the recruiting of Montana HS Players was the reduction of men’s basketball scholarships from 15-13 in the mid 90’s. Plain and simple less scholarships equal less opportunities for lower level D-1 athletes/players (which the Big Sky Conference is). Coaches no longer have the luxury of signing a player, redshirting and developing player like they used to or even the way D-1 Football can do. Players need to contribute quickly if not there first year then by their second if not by their third they are gone.

There is one thing about UM and MSU coaches though, IN MY OPINION, that has been true since I started watching Big Sky Basketball in the mid 1970’s, and that is they would always prefer to take a chance on an out of state Kid than a Montana kid. For some reason it is easier for them to justify signing a kid from California that has no business being on a D-1 team never contributes and is gone by his junior year, than being “embarrassed” about signing a Montana kid that does not work out. Huse was better than most and he took some chances with some Montana Big men with so/so results. Again though I can list a dozen kids sign from out of state that never contributed anything to the program. Durham was pretty good at spotting a Montana player or two and offerings them, but I remember once when Durham was asked why he was not recruiting Jordan Hasquet (who Durham knew from Bobcat camps, and really like Mick). Durham responded, well if he was any good why aren’t the Griz recruiting/offerings him? What kind of response is that I will not recruit him because my rival is not recruiting him! Well the Griz did offer him at the last minute when another kid bailed on them. What they got a 2 time all conference pick and now a pro-player in Europe.

This is my long and over bloated point. There are Montana kids that never get a look from MSU or UM simply because they are from Montana (one by the way is playing for Oregon State). Like I said for whatever reason UM and MSU coaches would rather take a chance on an out of state kid that they would a Montana Kid. So someone tells me a Montana player cannot be any good because neither UM nor MSU have recruited them, it means nothing to me. Some players mature and come into their own late. Other may simply not get a fair shake in their evaluation, and sometimes it is just impossible to measure a layers heart. You need to hear what other high school coaches say, believe it or not they do have a pretty good idea what a D-1 players looks like. In the end you may be right or you may be wrong, but why is better to fail with a California player than a Montana.



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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by phantom » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:50 pm

There's a difference from saying that Montana and Montana State not recruiting a kid and nobody at the D1 level recruited a kid. As far as high school coaches knowing if a kid is a D1 player, I would disagree with that. Many high school coaches don't realize how good a kid has to be to be a D1 player, a D2 player or a player at a NAIA. Just because a player is a good high school player doesn't mean his game will translate to the college level, or the division 1 level. Not saying that specifically in the case that started the discussion, just talking generally.
If the Montana State staff decides they think some Montana kids will help them win and recruit them, that's great. I'll support them in their decisions. Hopefully, they'll get the JC shooter they offered, he'll help the Bobcats spread the floor, win some games and everyone will be happy.



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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by Cat Grad » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:13 pm

mslacat wrote:OK This conversation is going on the “2018 recruiting” I wanted to touch on this and expand but I thought I would start its own thread so as to not bog down that thread.

It used to be that The State of Montana would produce at least one D-1 basketball player a year and Montana State and Montana would be in a dog fight to get that player. Every couple years there would be two and once about every 5-6 year we could have as many as 3 players would be signed from Montana. Additionally, back then 90-95% of all the D-1 caliber Montana high school players stayed in State and went to either MSU or UM Occasionally a guy from Bozeman would go to Kansas St or a Butte Guy of Mormon decent would go to Brigham Young but most would stay in state. These were not tweaner D-1 talent these were solid D-1 talents. As a matter of fact most of these players would go on to be the stars of the Big Sky Conference. Go back from the mid to late 90’s and back and look at the yearly Big Sky Conference all conference teams and you will find former Montana high school stars all over those selections. For a state with such a small population base as Montana is was amazing the number of all Big Sky conference players there were.

In the Mid to Late 90’s things started to change, and the number of D-1 caliber Montana recruits started to dwindle. We could go 2-3 year without anyone getting recruited by a D-1 team. Then once a solid D-1 recruit did pop up and started to get attention the better ones would sign out of state. Occasionally we would get a Bobby Howard and Derek Selby, but it was a rare occasion when either school signed a Montana kid to a scholarship. I asked Danny Sprinkle once, right after he left Huse’s coaching staff, did the rest of the county’s basketball players just get better than Montana’s kids or were than Montana Kids simply not as good as they once were. Danny was quite clear, that in his opinions that the current (mid 2000) Montana Players simply were not as good the Hatler’s, Leachman’s, Browne’s or even himself. Those guys, he felt could still be big time players for UM or MSU even today. A couple years later I asked Huse the same question and he basically said the same thing, but went on to say that Montana kids have turned to a football and most of the really great athletes are going in that direction, and that could be a contributor to why the numbers of D-1 prospects are down in number, but not in quality. He pointed out player like Josh Huestis prove Montana could produce good basketball players if enough of them took it on as their major sport.

I should also point out that something that has hurt the recruiting of Montana HS Players was the reduction of men’s basketball scholarships from 15-13 in the mid 90’s. Plain and simple less scholarships equal less opportunities for lower level D-1 athletes/players (which the Big Sky Conference is). Coaches no longer have the luxury of signing a player, redshirting and developing player like they used to or even the way D-1 Football can do. Players need to contribute quickly if not there first year then by their second if not by their third they are gone.

There is one thing about UM and MSU coaches though, IN MY OPINION, that has been true since I started watching Big Sky Basketball in the mid 1970’s, and that is they would always prefer to take a chance on an out of state Kid than a Montana kid. For some reason it is easier for them to justify signing a kid from California that has no business being on a D-1 team never contributes and is gone by his junior year, than being “embarrassed” about signing a Montana kid that does not work out. Huse was better than most and he took some chances with some Montana Big men with so/so results. Again though I can list a dozen kids sign from out of state that never contributed anything to the program. Durham was pretty good at spotting a Montana player or two and offerings them, but I remember once when Durham was asked why he was not recruiting Jordan Hasquet (who Durham knew from Bobcat camps, and really like Mick). Durham responded, well if he was any good why aren’t the Griz recruiting/offerings him? What kind of response is that I will not recruit him because my rival is not recruiting him! Well the Griz did offer him at the last minute when another kid bailed on them. What they got a 2 time all conference pick and now a pro-player in Europe.

This is my long and over bloated point. There are Montana kids that never get a look from MSU or UM simply because they are from Montana (one by the way is playing for Oregon State). Like I said for whatever reason UM and MSU coaches would rather take a chance on an out of state kid that they would a Montana Kid. So someone tells me a Montana player cannot be any good because neither UM nor MSU have recruited them, it means nothing to me. Some players mature and come into their own late. Other may simply not get a fair shake in their evaluation, and sometimes it is just impossible to measure a layers heart. You need to hear what other high school coaches say, believe it or not they do have a pretty good idea what a D-1 players looks like. In the end you may be right or you may be wrong, but why is better to fail with a California player than a Montana.

I really appreciate your analysis! I know I'll upset more than a few folks when I state the best overall players in Montana are in the smaller schools. Craft, Selvig and several Griz coaches did extremely well with those kids. Binford is doing a good job now, in my estimation.

With that being said, if our small school kids were to start playing in more AAU venues you'd begin to see more of them getting opportunities--out of state. Heck, look at Adam Morrison's roots! Those kids playing for Valier and Sunburst can play anywhere. What are the records year after year of the high school all star games relative classification? Anyway, I appreciate reading what you post.



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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by wapiti » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:58 pm

Braxton Hill at Anaconda would be a Div 1 player to recruit, but he has a shoulder injury. If he did not have the injury he would definitely be worth recruiting.

I think he has a torn Lebrum. Is that an injury that can be recovered from? If so, he is worth a serious look.



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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by mslacat » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:18 pm

wapiti wrote:Braxton Hill at Anaconda would be a Div 1 player to recruit, but he has a shoulder injury. If he did not have the injury he would definitely be worth recruiting.

I think he has a torn Lebrum. Is that an injury that can be recovered from? If so, he is worth a serious look.
he's one who's the kid from Lewistown the coaches are recruiting as well as a kid from Skyview in Billings for next year


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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by VimSince03 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:17 pm

wapiti wrote:Braxton Hill at Anaconda would be a Div 1 player to recruit, but he has a shoulder injury. If he did not have the injury he would definitely be worth recruiting.

I think he has a torn Lebrum. Is that an injury that can be recovered from? If so, he is worth a serious look.
He signed with the Griz to play football.


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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by PapaG » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:58 pm

My experience as an "undersized" AA point guard at 5'11 from the late 1980s (which was actually not at all undersized in Montana, which is a clue) is that most players from Montana just don't have the length and athleticism to play D1 ball. Even way back then, what turned out to be a life-long friend at MSU dominated the AA title game in 1989 played at Metra for Kalispell with 22/12 from the paint and he's 6'3". He did end up at MSU running track. My HS team flamed out Saturday morning and didn't make it until Saturday night, and all of us on that team minus one player were better at either football or baseball, with one guy better at tennis, odd as that is.

Also, very few Montana HS kids then, and I imagine even now, trained for and played basketball only. It was a seasonal sport for 10 out of 12 players my senior year, only one of those two got playing time. When you have 6'4" players having to play the post because the size isn't in the state, the tall kid even in grade school gets stuck playing in the paint, and they don't have a chance because they never get to develop an outside game with ball-handling and passing skills, and especially perimeter defense.

Throw in that there haven't been any real in-state freaks with real NBA/D1 post size like Kryskowiak/Engellant/Leachman in a few decades, and what do you do other than take a chance on an in-state guard who is likely to be undersized from Day One. A Tres Tinkle is so rare in Montana, but then again, so are parents who are very tall and who coach basketball, so that was Tres' life growing up. I still wonder if he'd have stayed in Missoula if Wayne hadn't got the OSU job.


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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by BelgradeBobcat » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:37 pm

Tomorrow there's going to be a Montana kid playing for Portland State: https://www.goviks.com/roster.aspx?rp_i ... ath=mbball He's 7'1". How's our 6'5" center going to do against him? It's going to be interesting to say the least.



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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by GrizgradCatFan » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:04 am

You guys forget there were quite a few players from Montana in the 90's. JR Camel, Mattsidensticker, Kirk Walker, Leachman, Hatler, another kid from great falls high and I can't remember his name, but he went out of state and was maybe one of the better players that year he was a guard. Also Western had a full team of them and I believe won their conference. There were a couple guys on that squad that could have played D1 easily, but were overlooked. Growing up in the summers we used to get gyms open around the area with in 30 miles and always had a group of guys playing. If that wasn't available we had games at the outdoor courts outside in the summers. I hear this is no more and is pretty sad. Anymore I think you will be lucky to see one kid from Montana of D1 quality each year. And not that any of you would realized there was a montana kid on the practice squad until christmas for the cats, but he left and sad thing was he was better than a kid on scholarship we have. I would really like to see the kid from Livingston or Lewistown make it here, but also I would really rather we keep looking for a drop down big guy or a big guy who can actually post up. Until we have one we are one dimensional and easily guarded. CATLADY had it right! Come on Fish I am sure Oregon has a guy who won't ever make the court that could transfer over!



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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by mslacatfan » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:14 am

I agree that there is probably only 1 ish player per year in Montana that is worth offering a scholly.

That is why it’s SOOO important that we land those couple key MT recruits. If they want the fan base to be more involved, they need a couple MT kids on the roster. Period.

Missing out on players like the younger Howard brother, or that current bozeman kid in your own back yard...... Devastating blows to the program. If the cats want to build something similar to the Griz program, those misses absolutely can not happen.


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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by seattlecat95 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:20 am

Great observations by mslacat. These kids who get overlooked can always go the JC route. NJCAA division IV is near and one of the most competitive in the nation. Bonton headed there and it has produced some pretty good players. Chris Boucher is one example.



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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by Mr Lisle » Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:45 pm

Montana's July 2017 population was 1,050,493.
57.2% of division I basketball players are African American descendants
29.4% of division I basketball players are white Americans descendants
0.6% of Montana's population are of African American descent
89.2 of Montana's population are of white descent



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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by Cat Grad » Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:15 pm

Mr Lisle wrote:Montana's July 2017 population was 1,050,493.
57.2% of division I basketball players are African American descendants
29.4% of division I basketball players are white Americans descendants
0.6% of Montana's population are of African American descent
89.2 of Montana's population are of white descent
Steve Kerr was only on his NBA team because he could shoot. Montana has a lot of kids who can shoot a damn basketball--and they can even make layups in transition!



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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by VimSince03 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:18 pm

Cat Grad wrote:
Mr Lisle wrote:Montana's July 2017 population was 1,050,493.
57.2% of division I basketball players are African American descendants
29.4% of division I basketball players are white Americans descendants
0.6% of Montana's population are of African American descent
89.2 of Montana's population are of white descent
Steve Kerr was only on his NBA team because he could shoot. Montana has a lot of kids who can shoot a damn basketball--and they can even make layups in transition!
Exactly. MSU is not deep on ball handlers and shooters. You can find shooters and guys who are confident in dribbling the basketball in the state of Montana.


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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by Bobcat4Ever » Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:55 pm

Cat Grad wrote:
Mr Lisle wrote:Montana's July 2017 population was 1,050,493.
57.2% of division I basketball players are African American descendants
29.4% of division I basketball players are white Americans descendants
0.6% of Montana's population are of African American descent
89.2 of Montana's population are of white descent
Steve Kerr was only on his NBA team because he could shoot. Montana has a lot of kids who can shoot a damn basketball--and they can even make layups in transition!
I remember watching Steve Kerr play for Arizona (ranked #1) against Oregon State in Corvallis, before the 3-point shot. He was 7-7 from the field, 7-7 from the line for 21 very efficient points. Arizona won. Shooting is still a great skill to own.



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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by Cat Grad » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:41 pm

VimSince03 wrote:
Cat Grad wrote:
Mr Lisle wrote:Montana's July 2017 population was 1,050,493.
57.2% of division I basketball players are African American descendants
29.4% of division I basketball players are white Americans descendants
0.6% of Montana's population are of African American descent
89.2 of Montana's population are of white descent
Steve Kerr was only on his NBA team because he could shoot. Montana has a lot of kids who can shoot a damn basketball--and they can even make layups in transition!
Exactly. MSU is not deep on ball handlers and shooters. You can find shooters and guys who are confident in dribbling the basketball in the state of Montana.
Thanks to SWX and Root, I get to watch a lot of Summit, WCC and MW ball games. Amazing how many white kids are on their teams and each conference will probably get at least two teams into the tournament. Plus! There are some Indian kids on some of the teams!



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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by mslacat » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:07 pm

Cat Grad wrote:
VimSince03 wrote:
Cat Grad wrote:
Mr Lisle wrote:Montana's July 2017 population was 1,050,493.
57.2% of division I basketball players are African American descendants
29.4% of division I basketball players are white Americans descendants
0.6% of Montana's population are of African American descent
89.2 of Montana's population are of white descent
Steve Kerr was only on his NBA team because he could shoot. Montana has a lot of kids who can shoot a damn basketball--and they can even make layups in transition!
Exactly. MSU is not deep on ball handlers and shooters. You can find shooters and guys who are confident in dribbling the basketball in the state of Montana.
Thanks to SWX and Root, I get to watch a lot of Summit, WCC and MW ball games. Amazing how many white kids are on their teams and each conference will probably get at least two teams into the tournament. Plus! There are some Indian kids on some of the teams!
I ****** DON'T CARE IF A KID IS BLACK, WHITE, YELLOW OR GREEN IF HE CAN PLAY BASKETBALL AT A D-1 LEVEL AND OUR COACH (WHOM EVER MIGHT BE HERE AT THE TIME) CAN COACH THAT TYPE OF PLAYER I WANT HIM TO BE A BOBCAT!



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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by Cat Grad » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:22 pm

mslacat wrote:
Cat Grad wrote:
VimSince03 wrote:
Cat Grad wrote:
Mr Lisle wrote:Montana's July 2017 population was 1,050,493.
57.2% of division I basketball players are African American descendants
29.4% of division I basketball players are white Americans descendants
0.6% of Montana's population are of African American descent
89.2 of Montana's population are of white descent
Steve Kerr was only on his NBA team because he could shoot. Montana has a lot of kids who can shoot a damn basketball--and they can even make layups in transition!
Exactly. MSU is not deep on ball handlers and shooters. You can find shooters and guys who are confident in dribbling the basketball in the state of Montana.
Thanks to SWX and Root, I get to watch a lot of Summit, WCC and MW ball games. Amazing how many white kids are on their teams and each conference will probably get at least two teams into the tournament. Plus! There are some Indian kids on some of the teams!
I ****** DON'T CARE IF A KID IS BLACK, WHITE, YELLOW OR GREEN IF HE CAN PLAY BASKETBALL AT A D-1 LEVEL AND OUR COACH (WHOM EVER MIGHT BE HERE AT THE TIME) CAN COACH THAT TYPE OF PLAYER I WANT HIM TO BE A BOBCAT!
Strange. I was under the impression the op was about a lack of opportunity for Montana basketball players and an individual posted statistics showing a correlation to Montana demographics and inferred by the post (one can surmise) there are not enough basketball players to fit the model to be found in Montana. Evidently I missed the intent of the op and the reason for the statistics (without sources being cited).

It has long been my contention many of my relatives are not being afforded an opportunity to play sports for some odd reason at MSU but they get to out of state.



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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by Hawks86 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:57 pm

Image


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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by Cat Grad » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:02 pm

Hawks86 wrote:Image
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