Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by PapaG » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:30 pm

catsack wrote:
I guess T D sees the potential or he wouldn’t have offered him a walk on spot! Only time will tell!
I thought it wasn't a done deal that he'd walk-on at UM. A walk-on D1 basketball player is a lot different than a walk-on FCS football player, too, simply because this means at best he's the 14th man on the roster, since 13 D1 full scholarships are available each year and can't be split among other players.


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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by catsack » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:35 pm

PapaG wrote:
catsack wrote:
I guess T D sees the potential or he wouldn’t have offered him a walk on spot! Only time will tell!
I thought it wasn't a done deal that he'd walk-on at UM. A walk-on D1 basketball player is a lot different than a walk-on FCS football player, too, simply because this means at best he's the 14th man on the roster, since 13 D1 full scholarships are available each year and can't be split among other players.
A walk in on spot is a lot bigger in basketball than football, the griz have had a lot of luck with class c kids. Like I’ve said it isn’t costing them anything to prove he can play in the Big Sky, wish the kid some luck! Hell I’ve seen years where a class c school beats class b , b beats a , a beats aa , so does that mean c wins against aa ? Anyway the kid is getting a shot at it witch I think he deserves!



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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by PapaG » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:16 pm

catsack wrote:
PapaG wrote:
catsack wrote:
I guess T D sees the potential or he wouldn’t have offered him a walk on spot! Only time will tell!
I thought it wasn't a done deal that he'd walk-on at UM. A walk-on D1 basketball player is a lot different than a walk-on FCS football player, too, simply because this means at best he's the 14th man on the roster, since 13 D1 full scholarships are available each year and can't be split among other players.
A walk in on spot is a lot bigger in basketball than football, the griz have had a lot of luck with class c kids. Like I’ve said it isn’t costing them anything to prove he can play in the Big Sky, wish the kid some luck! Hell I’ve seen years where a class c school beats class b , b beats a , a beats aa , so does that mean c wins against aa ? Anyway the kid is getting a shot at it witch I think he deserves!

Why do you keep making it a C/B/A/AA thing other than it's foolish to say that Class C players and teams on average are on the same level as Class AA teams. That has nothing to do with who and who can't play D1, and I don't think this Arlee kid is a D1 difference-maker. Again, I was under the impression that he's not for sure even going to UM, and as for Griz Class C players, yes, Engellant and Kirk Walker were great UM players, but they were great players for other reasons. This Arlee kid can't shoot. He can't, look at his stats.


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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by Cat Grad » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:35 pm

This whole thread is hilarious! AA sucks, plain and simple. Butte used to be the exception but now they are struggling. Way back in the day, the real athletes came out of the A, B and C schools. Selvig makes the Hall of Fame because he did like Heathcoate did and picked up kids from the Rez border towns. Hardin has two kids who shoot just as well as Malatare and all the kids are as good as Willie was with a basketball.

Chavez and Krysko both started in B and C schools but transferred. Oh, they both went to the UM???? So did Don Wetzel, I think.



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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by Hawks86 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:47 pm

All the guys I can think of that are currently playing DI basketball all come from AA schools.


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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by Griznationalist » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:13 pm

Hawks86 wrote:All the guys I can think of that are currently playing DI basketball all come from AA schools.
There you go again, Hawks86, spoiling the fun by presenting some facts. Just when it was getting rolling, too.



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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by BobcatDel » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:23 am

PapaG wrote:
I have no doubt he will stack up well against AA/A/B players this late spring in the All-Star tournaments, and it would be awesome if he gets a walk-on spot at UM and eventually some minutes. I always pull for Montana HS players. I was one myself, and had a dad who played for the Griz for two years in the 60s and an uncle who was a 3-year starter at PG for MSU in the 70s. I grew up around Montana HS basketball, I just happened to be better at baseball and liked it more, so I only played basketball during basketball season and after I stopped playing football, the fall too in pick-up games. That's not the point of this thread, though. There are posters here making the case that Montana players, or at least this is how I read it, are being intentionally ignored by both UM and MSU in favor of out-of-state players, and I find that line of thinking ridiculous. As if Fish and even DeCuire are going to pass up local players, on cheaper scholarships, who will make their teams better, and instead give those scholarships to out-of-state players who are worse than the Montana HS players? That makes no sense.

As for watching the clips, yes, that's all I've seen, but looking at the Arlee kid's game compared to say, JR Camel's or even Skyview's Kendal Manuel's coming out of HS, it's not even close in terms of what it required to be an impact player in the Big Sky, let alone a player who can help elevate a program to higher levels. I don't want it to seem like I'm crapping on the Arlee kid, I'm not, but I've seen this same thing over and over again with undersized Montana PGs, and then you get them in the gym at even Shroyer and they are just another good but not great dude. Ty Elkin from Red Lodge is another good example of this, and he was an all-time great Montana HS PG from a B school who was a defensive liability in the Big Sky and ended up playing at MSU-B. He used to play with us in Shroyer and was very, very good player, but D2 was his ceiling and he couldn't see the court for what were decent MSU Bobcat teams. I also like that Malatare is a winner, and hope he does get to walk-on at UM, but in-state walk-ons aren't elevating the MSU program, and UM is already an elite Big Sky program.

Good valid points. Although I wasn't around to see the players you mention above, I have observed the same thing with other players from my era. Something about the drive/heart of this kid that I like though. A lot of kids have the skills, it is sometimes the heart, desire that makes the difference. Oh well we will see in time.



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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by BobcatDel » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:40 am

KIX wrote:Why the infatuation with Malatare? Yes, he is a good player with a tremendous amount of desire and BB IQ but there are several point guards in the state that are on the same level as he, if not better. You have to look at the system as well. Arlee (and any native reservation team, for that matter) tend to be very unorganized, undisciplined and turnover prone. That is what next level college coaches don't want to deal with...having to change the mentality from a random system to more disciplined style of play. How many of the great native American players have/have not succeeded at the college level, is another question? Other than JR Camel and possibly Johnathan Takes Enemy how many have actually enrolled in college and played? For instance, the good point guard from, I believe Box Elder - Brandon The Boy , a couple years back signed with Rocky but never saw the court...they literally disappear into nowhere...that's a historical risk on a college program's part. Malatare's stats are so blown out of proportion as well. Arlee spends the whole year playing cupcake's in their district and division that are the equivalent of an 8th grade/JV squad - often blowing them out by 20, 30, 40 points. Surely he could function at any high school level just on his talent but, realistically, he is no more talented than any other First Team point guard at any other level. His motor and IQ are no different than other top guards throughout the state.
Re Malatare discussion thread, indeed it diverted the topic thread. But a couple points to be made.

- First he is one of the Top 20 pre-season picks for top BB players in the state, so others must think highly of him too. Of the 10 guards on that list, two are committed to Football (Hill to Griz and White to Dickinson), two are Juniors, two are committed to BB in Frontier Conference (Beighle to Carroll, Fowler to Western), one is committed to BB and Baseball at Glendale (Nelson), one is committed to Griz BB (Worster). The other three including Malatare appear to be uncommitted at this time.
- Second, I watched Brandon The Boy play for 3 years and although a great shooter, he is not the overall player the Malatare kid is. I was surprised he got on at a Frontier Conference school. I guess you can say he never saw the court but that was because he quit school for reasons I am not sure of. Entirely different motivational level and drive than Malatare kid. Brandon The Boy is not a good comparison.
- Third, criticism of the district they play in is true, however, play against Manhattan Christian is certainly worthy as an opponent. Scobey being undefeated when they played them is noteworthy. And they did beat Rocky Boy early in the season... Rocky Boy is 17-4 in Class B and is in the State Class B tourney this week.

Your quote "His motor and IQ are no different than other top guards throughout the state".... a lot of folks think otherwise. Have you seen him play? Besides the top 20 pick, I sat beside a 33 year BB coach at the state C and just asked if he thought the kid could play at D1. He was unequivocal that he thought he could.

Time will tell.



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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by Potomac Griz » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:47 am

PapaG wrote:This Arlee kid can't shoot. He can't, look at his stats.
The Griz don't live and die by the 3 though. They've taken far fewer 3s than any other team in the Big Sky. Sure it's nice to have good outside shooters but that's not the type of team DeCuire is putting together. It's about guard penetration, ball movement, good post play and most importantly Defense, creating turnovers and forcing other teams out of their usual offense. If he can bring defensive intensity, good anticipation on defense and jumps into passing lanes using that anticipation I'm all for him being a Griz. I'm hoping he does walk on for the Griz and gets a chance to prove himself (like Criswell for example). Maybe he works out, maybe he doesn't and transfers after a year or two. I have to say I'm pretty excited to see how he does though as his game reminds me of Criswell's especially anticipating passes and getting steals. Plus DeCuire has proven himself as someone who finds talent that fits what he wants to build here.



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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by BobcatDel » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:08 am

[quote="PapaG"][quote="catsack"]
C
I'll just have to disagree and stick to my belief that this Arlee kid is someone who isn't a solid Big Sky prospect. He's turning the ball over 4 times a game in Class C and he's not going to be an elite scorer at any D1 school since he struggles at ~30% shooting the HS three pointer and isn't an elite FT shooter. His 2pt. % being near 60% tells me a lot of his FGs made are on layups and other shots close to the rim that he's not going to get against taller players.

http://www.maxpreps.com/athlete/phillip ... -stats.htm

[quote]

His free throw percentage at 76% would beat everyone on the Bobcats this year but Hall (at least those who had a reasonable number of tries at the line). In earlier comment, I mentioned he has the quickest pull up jump shot I have seen. A significant number of his two's come from those pull up jumpers also...driving full speed and a quick stop pull up or soft lob from the free throw line or inside the lane while everyone else is still falling back on their heels. Anyone at the State C championship night may have noticed he shot and made one pull up jumper with his off hand (not a layup.. a jump shot). He will be able to shoot those shots at the next level. The layups he is getting now are often against bigger guys although they will certainly be better athletes at the next level.

Yep, the 3 pt percentage is too low for a D1 player. I thought it was a bit higher than that but stats don't lie. His assists are high and should continue at the next level just from his style of play. TO of 4 ppg will have to come down or he will be in Bonton territory. Some of the TO is a direct result of the style of play, he takes it inside and you better be ready for the ball as it is come back at you from any angle or direction....I suspect a couple of turnovers each game are just simply due to guys not being ready and able to handle the pass... I saw a few times the guys pointed at him at the tourney basically saying "my fault". I know when I played if I had a guy who I felt would get me the ball I worked harder to get open.

Ha! Can debate on paper ad nauseum....guess we will see in next couple years how he pans out. I just hope he gets a shot somewhere.



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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by PapaG » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:22 am

Cat Grad wrote:This whole thread is hilarious! AA sucks, plain and simple. Butte used to be the exception but now they are struggling. Way back in the day, the real athletes came out of the A, B and C schools. Selvig makes the Hall of Fame because he did like Heathcoate did and picked up kids from the Rez border towns. Hardin has two kids who shoot just as well as Malatare and all the kids are as good as Willie was with a basketball.

Chavez and Krysko both started in B and C schools but transferred. Oh, they both went to the UM???? So did Don Wetzel, I think.
As I said, I regard anything Cat Grad posts as kooky. Nothing in this post has to do with why MT players at any level, AA to C, aren't being consistently recruited by any D1 schools, including MSU and UM. Also, if AA "sucks," yet the two Montana HS players currently in the Pac 12 both are from AA schools, what does that mean for the rest of the Montana classifications?
Last edited by PapaG on Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:44 am, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by KIX » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:23 am

BobcatDel wrote:
KIX wrote:Why the infatuation with Malatare? Yes, he is a good player with a tremendous amount of desire and BB IQ but there are several point guards in the state that are on the same level as he, if not better. You have to look at the system as well. Arlee (and any native reservation team, for that matter) tend to be very unorganized, undisciplined and turnover prone. That is what next level college coaches don't want to deal with...having to change the mentality from a random system to more disciplined style of play. How many of the great native American players have/have not succeeded at the college level, is another question? Other than JR Camel and possibly Johnathan Takes Enemy how many have actually enrolled in college and played? For instance, the good point guard from, I believe Box Elder - Brandon The Boy , a couple years back signed with Rocky but never saw the court...they literally disappear into nowhere...that's a historical risk on a college program's part. Malatare's stats are so blown out of proportion as well. Arlee spends the whole year playing cupcake's in their district and division that are the equivalent of an 8th grade/JV squad - often blowing them out by 20, 30, 40 points. Surely he could function at any high school level just on his talent but, realistically, he is no more talented than any other First Team point guard at any other level. His motor and IQ are no different than other top guards throughout the state.
Re Malatare discussion thread, indeed it diverted the topic thread. But a couple points to be made.

- First he is one of the Top 20 pre-season picks for top BB players in the state, so others must think highly of him too. Of the 10 guards on that list, two are committed to Football (Hill to Griz and White to Dickinson), two are Juniors, two are committed to BB in Frontier Conference (Beighle to Carroll, Fowler to Western), one is committed to BB and Baseball at Glendale (Nelson), one is committed to Griz BB (Worster). The other three including Malatare appear to be uncommitted at this time.
- Second, I watched Brandon The Boy play for 3 years and although a great shooter, he is not the overall player the Malatare kid is. I was surprised he got on at a Frontier Conference school. I guess you can say he never saw the court but that was because he quit school for reasons I am not sure of. Entirely different motivational level and drive than Malatare kid. Brandon The Boy is not a good comparison.
- Third, criticism of the district they play in is true, however, play against Manhattan Christian is certainly worthy as an opponent. Scobey being undefeated when they played them is noteworthy. And they did beat Rocky Boy early in the season... Rocky Boy is 17-4 in Class B and is in the State Class B tourney this week.

Your quote "His motor and IQ are no different than other top guards throughout the state".... a lot of folks think otherwise. Have you seen him play? Besides the top 20 pick, I sat beside a 33 year BB coach at the state C and just asked if he thought the kid could play at D1. He was unequivocal that he thought he could.

Time will tell.
Yes, time will tell, for sure...especially on the defensive end and outside shot. His penetration forte will be limited at the DI level.

He was one of the "MT Top 20" players in the pre-season, agree with that, but you also have to put into context who wrote that bogus article, as well. Some amateur sports writer from GF, that I've never heard of, ambiguously threw together a list of which about 10 were legit...and they were all predominantly from the North and Western parts of the state!! Now, after the season, go take a look at that list and re-evaluate...it may surprise you...especially if you open up the consideration to the whole state of MT. An experienced sports writer would have never formulated an article like that and if he did he certainly would have done more research.

Your second point speaks to my theory of the unpredictability of any Native American ball player...its a risk no matter what the talent level is...Brandon The Boy may be a bad example but there is literally no one else to compare to...I believe Johnathan Takes Enemy (more talented than Malatare) played for Rocky at one time but not sure the tenure.

Yes, MC has been a worthy opponent and the Scobey's and Melstone's but I beg you to name a fifth in the whole state? If you are a talented one or two man show at the Class C level, you can dominate. All you have to be is better than the one best player on the opposing team. If you have a second or a third legit player at that level, you feel like you've won the lottery.



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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by PapaG » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:25 am

Potomac Griz wrote:
PapaG wrote:This Arlee kid can't shoot. He can't, look at his stats.
The Griz don't live and die by the 3 though. They've taken far fewer 3s than any other team in the Big Sky. Sure it's nice to have good outside shooters but that's not the type of team DeCuire is putting together. It's about guard penetration, ball movement, good post play and most importantly Defense, creating turnovers and forcing other teams out of their usual offense. If he can bring defensive intensity, good anticipation on defense and jumps into passing lanes using that anticipation I'm all for him being a Griz. I'm hoping he does walk on for the Griz and gets a chance to prove himself (like Criswell for example). Maybe he works out, maybe he doesn't and transfers after a year or two. I have to say I'm pretty excited to see how he does though as his game reminds me of Criswell's especially anticipating passes and getting steals. Plus DeCuire has proven himself as someone who finds talent that fits what he wants to build here.
Criswell is/was 6'3" though. Malatare will be lucky to be a true 6'. Again, there is nothing wrong with Frontier Conference.


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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by BobcatDel » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:56 pm

[/quote]

Yes, MC has been a worthy opponent and the Scobey's and Melstone's but I beg you to name a fifth in the whole state? If you are a talented one or two man show at the Class C level, you can dominate. All you have to be is better than the one best player on the opposing team. If you have a second or a third legit player at that level, you feel like you've won the lottery.[/quote]

Well Heart Butte went into state undefeated including a win over a Class B school and victories over the Bobcat fan favorite Pickering in Sunburst (a highly touted one man team like you mention above). Heart Butte has a quality player in the 6'3" guard Spoonrunner kid who is a sophomore which I guess means they should have won it all this year.... but you might remember the Heart Butte kids had not been home for nearly 3 weeks due to the snow/wind in the Browning/Heart Butte area and the kids were puking on the sidelines at state (as was Malatare). Fairview started 4 sophomores and a junior and made state with its only losses to Scobey and an upset loss in Division to Park City...which they avenged at State, also had a win over a Class B school.

I will ask again.... did you go see the kid play? And how much Class C ball have you watched? Who are you kidding about winning state with one or two kids? I can tell you that you ain't gonna win Class C with one or two guys. It takes 7 or 8 quality players to win state in Class C. Chinook had 4 kids in the 6'4" range this year and no guard play so could not get out of Divisional. Highwood four years ago in Billings had 5 great starters but no bench and could not even get into Saturday night at state... a great team though. CJI had 4 players that could have played on any team in the state 3 years ago and couldn't make it out of the division with no bench. But if you want to assemble a mighty duo and try to win it all...... well just go for it and prove me wrong.



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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by Cat Grad » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:37 am

BobcatDel wrote:
Yes, MC has been a worthy opponent and the Scobey's and Melstone's but I beg you to name a fifth in the whole state? If you are a talented one or two man show at the Class C level, you can dominate. All you have to be is better than the one best player on the opposing team. If you have a second or a third legit player at that level, you feel like you've won the lottery.[/quote]

Well Heart Butte went into state undefeated including a win over a Class B school and victories over the Bobcat fan favorite Pickering in Sunburst (a highly touted one man team like you mention above). Heart Butte has a quality player in the 6'3" guard Spoonrunner kid who is a sophomore which I guess means they should have won it all this year.... but you might remember the Heart Butte kids had not been home for nearly 3 weeks due to the snow/wind in the Browning/Heart Butte area and the kids were puking on the sidelines at state (as was Malatare). Fairview started 4 sophomores and a junior and made state with its only losses to Scobey and an upset loss in Division to Park City...which they avenged at State, also had a win over a Class B school.

I will ask again.... did you go see the kid play? And how much Class C ball have you watched? Who are you kidding about winning state with one or two kids? I can tell you that you ain't gonna win Class C with one or two guys. It takes 7 or 8 quality players to win state in Class C. Chinook had 4 kids in the 6'4" range this year and no guard play so could not get out of Divisional. Highwood four years ago in Billings had 5 great starters but no bench and could not even get into Saturday night at state... a great team though. CJI had 4 players that could have played on any team in the state 3 years ago and couldn't make it out of the division with no bench. But if you want to assemble a mighty duo and try to win it all...... well just go for it and prove me wrong.[/quote]

Thank you for this post. You said it much better than I could ever do and I get so damn mad at the asshat AA graduates and psuedoballplayers still living their glory days (Thanks Bruce Springsteen!) that I just quit reading their bull sheet and consider the source. Just a bunch of lazy, worthless dumbs**ts who come on these sites bragging about how "great" they were in high school and making excuses why they weren't worth a sh*t in college. Especially the sorry asses who got beat out by a kid from someplace like Drummond or Westby.



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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by Cat Grad » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:47 am

Since 2003, the state of Montana Class B State Champion has kicked the ****** out of the Class A State Champion two times during the season. The State A Champion kicked the ****** out of the AA Champion. That is to say, the State B Champion was by far and away the best high school basketball team in the state (except for the fact that a neighboring Class C school would kick the ****** out of the Class B School in local competitions).



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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by PapaG » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:06 am

Cat Grad wrote:Since 2003, the state of Montana Class B State Champion has kicked the ****** out of the Class A State Champion two times during the season. The State A Champion kicked the ****** out of the AA Champion. That is to say, the State B Champion was by far and away the best high school basketball team in the state (except for the fact that a neighboring Class C school would kick the ****** out of the Class B School in local competitions).
I'm still wondering what any of this has to do with Montana not having many D1 basketball players. Do you even know what you're arguing at this point?


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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by LTown Cat » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:21 am

Cat Grad wrote:Since 2003, the state of Montana Class B State Champion has kicked the ****** out of the Class A State Champion two times during the season. The State A Champion kicked the ****** out of the AA Champion. That is to say, the State B Champion was by far and away the best high school basketball team in the state (except for the fact that a neighboring Class C school would kick the ****** out of the Class B School in local competitions).
Since 2003??? Are you saying that has happened every year since 2003? That would be false. Are you saying that has happened once since 2003? That would be an anomaly.

Just need some clarification on your point.



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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by PapaG » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:08 pm

LTown Cat wrote:
Cat Grad wrote:Since 2003, the state of Montana Class B State Champion has kicked the ****** out of the Class A State Champion two times during the season. The State A Champion kicked the ****** out of the AA Champion. That is to say, the State B Champion was by far and away the best high school basketball team in the state (except for the fact that a neighboring Class C school would kick the ****** out of the Class B School in local competitions).
Since 2003??? Are you saying that has happened every year since 2003? That would be false. Are you saying that has happened once since 2003? That would be an anomaly.

Just need some clarification on your point.
He said "two times," but even that doesn't really mean much because it has nothing to do with Montana's HS dearth of D1-level basketball players.


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Re: Recruiting of Montana D-1 Basketball Players

Post by LTown Cat » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:07 pm

PapaG wrote:
LTown Cat wrote:
Cat Grad wrote:Since 2003, the state of Montana Class B State Champion has kicked the ****** out of the Class A State Champion two times during the season. The State A Champion kicked the ****** out of the AA Champion. That is to say, the State B Champion was by far and away the best high school basketball team in the state (except for the fact that a neighboring Class C school would kick the ****** out of the Class B School in local competitions).
Since 2003??? Are you saying that has happened every year since 2003? That would be false. Are you saying that has happened once since 2003? That would be an anomaly.

Just need some clarification on your point.
He said "two times," but even that doesn't really mean much because it has nothing to do with Montana's HS dearth of D1-level basketball players.
I took that as they beat them two times that year. Ya I agree with you though.



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