QB Update

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iaafan
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Re: QB Update

Post by iaafan » Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:49 am

Must’ve been a non-eventful practice. Probably put in some new stuff, so they were walking through plays.



iaafan
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Re: QB Update

Post by iaafan » Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:55 am

The notion that MSU’s success hinges on QB play is off.

When Tampa Bay and Baltimore won Super Bowls. It was their defenses that carried them. Not Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer.



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Re: QB Update

Post by DriscollCat » Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:59 am

iaafan wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:49 am
Must’ve been a non-eventful practice. Probably put in some new stuff, so they were walking through plays.
No, there was actually a bunch of 11 on 11 scrimmage type stuff. Some fast paced tempo stuff. D looked salty even when amandre and Scrempos weren’t on the field (if they got in, I didn’t notice it). 2nd team D looked even tougher against 2nd team O. Run game looked good. Some good battles in that respect. Pass rush looked fast.

Obviously, those are just my opinions.



iaafan
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Re: QB Update

Post by iaafan » Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:09 am

DriscollCat wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:59 am
iaafan wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:49 am
Must’ve been a non-eventful practice. Probably put in some new stuff, so they were walking through plays.
No, there was actually a bunch of 11 on 11 scrimmage type stuff. Some fast paced tempo stuff. D looked salty even when amandre and Scrempos weren’t on the field (if they got in, I didn’t notice it). 2nd team D looked even tougher against 2nd team O. Run game looked good. Some good battles in that respect. Pass rush looked fast.

Obviously, those are just my opinions.
Thanks.



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Re: QB Update

Post by Catsrgrood » Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:17 am

iaafan wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:55 am
The notion that MSU’s success hinges on QB play is off.

When Tampa Bay and Baltimore won Super Bowls. It was their defenses that carried them. Not Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer.
I think MSU’s success 100% hinges on QB play. That’s not saying the QB needs to be an all American though.

If the QB is holding onto the ball too long, taking sacks, throwing interceptions, missing open guys, etc, that stuff will lose MSU games.

Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer were solid QB’s that relied on defense and the run game and made the right decision at the right time and didn’t have excessive turnovers, THAT is what our QB needs to do.

This roster is stacked with the one major wild card potentially being the QB. Solid to good QB play would mean this is a top 10 team in the nation and a force to be reckoned with, bad QB play and they’re a team that could probably still sneak into the playoffs but likely lose in the first round or two.

So I think a lot of success hinges on the QB and thats why there is a 40+ page thread and going dedicated to it.



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VimSince03
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Re: QB Update

Post by VimSince03 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:28 am

Catsrgrood wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:17 am
iaafan wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:55 am
The notion that MSU’s success hinges on QB play is off.

When Tampa Bay and Baltimore won Super Bowls. It was their defenses that carried them. Not Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer.
I think MSU’s success 100% hinges on QB play. That’s not saying the QB needs to be an all American though.

If the QB is holding onto the ball too long, taking sacks, throwing interceptions, missing open guys, etc, that stuff will lose MSU games.

Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer were solid QB’s that relied on defense and the run game and made the right decision at the right time and didn’t have excessive turnovers, THAT is what our QB needs to do.

This roster is stacked with the one major wild card potentially being the QB. Solid to good QB play would mean this is a top 10 team in the nation and a force to be reckoned with, bad QB play and they’re a team that could probably still sneak into the playoffs but likely lose in the first round or two.

So I think a lot of success hinges on the QB and thats why there is a 40+ page thread and going dedicated to it.
When Murray and Andersen held onto the ball too long or missed open guys, they washed out the mistake by making up for it on the ground. Tucker and Casey won't have that same luxury because they don't have the same skill set as Chris and Troy. Tucker and Casey HAVE TO be proficient in getting rid of the ball and hitting open guys above and beyond what Chris and Troy did the last few years...that is why Choate recruited them...to actually play the position it was meant to be played. So if they have a crappy completion percentage and a high turnover rate with little scoring production to counter it, MSU is going to struggle and #15 might be back in the driver's seat before we know it.

However, I think these kids just need live reps in games (and no not just 2.5 like Tucker got last year). As Colter/Brooks stated, they just have to pick a guy and roll with him/build him up. Again, I trust Matt Miller and what he wants to do on offense. Let's just let it all play out.

P.S. - taking sacks isn't always a bad thing...it's okay to live to fight another day instead of throwing a pick under pressure.


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Re: QB Update

Post by DriscollCat » Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:31 am

iaafan wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:09 am
DriscollCat wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:59 am
iaafan wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:49 am
Must’ve been a non-eventful practice. Probably put in some new stuff, so they were walking through plays.
No, there was actually a bunch of 11 on 11 scrimmage type stuff. Some fast paced tempo stuff. D looked salty even when amandre and Scrempos weren’t on the field (if they got in, I didn’t notice it). 2nd team D looked even tougher against 2nd team O. Run game looked good. Some good battles in that respect. Pass rush looked fast.

Obviously, those are just my opinions.
Thanks.
No problem.



iaafan
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Re: QB Update

Post by iaafan » Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:37 am

Catsrgrood wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:17 am
iaafan wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:55 am
The notion that MSU’s success hinges on QB play is off.

When Tampa Bay and Baltimore won Super Bowls. It was their defenses that carried them. Not Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer.
I think MSU’s success 100% hinges on QB play. That’s not saying the QB needs to be an all American though.

If the QB is holding onto the ball too long, taking sacks, throwing interceptions, missing open guys, etc, that stuff will lose MSU games.

Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer were solid QB’s that relied on defense and the run game and made the right decision at the right time and didn’t have excessive turnovers, THAT is what our QB needs to do.

This roster is stacked with the one major wild card potentially being the QB. Solid to good QB play would mean this is a top 10 team in the nation and a force to be reckoned with, bad QB play and they’re a team that could probably still sneak into the playoffs but likely lose in the first round or two.

So I think a lot of success hinges on the QB and thats why there is a 40+ page thread and going dedicated to it.
I think MSU’s success hinges on defense this year. I think if MSU has an elite defense it will make up for not having an elite QB. If MSU has an elite QB, it won’t make up for having a defense like last year’s.



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Re: QB Update

Post by bobcat99 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:52 am

iaafan wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:55 am
The notion that MSU’s success hinges on QB play is off.

When Tampa Bay and Baltimore won Super Bowls. It was their defenses that carried them. Not Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer.
NFL vs college. Difference is large.

We have a good defense. An all time great defense like those? We shall see.

We will be a good team regardless. We could be a championship caliber team with a good QB.



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Re: QB Update

Post by bobcat99 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:59 am

iaafan wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:37 am
Catsrgrood wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:17 am
iaafan wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:55 am
The notion that MSU’s success hinges on QB play is off.

When Tampa Bay and Baltimore won Super Bowls. It was their defenses that carried them. Not Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer.
I think MSU’s success 100% hinges on QB play. That’s not saying the QB needs to be an all American though.

If the QB is holding onto the ball too long, taking sacks, throwing interceptions, missing open guys, etc, that stuff will lose MSU games.

Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer were solid QB’s that relied on defense and the run game and made the right decision at the right time and didn’t have excessive turnovers, THAT is what our QB needs to do.

This roster is stacked with the one major wild card potentially being the QB. Solid to good QB play would mean this is a top 10 team in the nation and a force to be reckoned with, bad QB play and they’re a team that could probably still sneak into the playoffs but likely lose in the first round or two.

So I think a lot of success hinges on the QB and thats why there is a 40+ page thread and going dedicated to it.
I think MSU’s success hinges on defense this year. I think if MSU has an elite defense it will make up for not having an elite QB. If MSU has an elite QB, it won’t make up for having a defense like last year’s.
Define success? Making the playoffs? Actually contending? Beating the Griz? It's different for everybody.

I don't think anybody is expecting elite QB play. I'm certainly not. I'd just like proficient QB play.

I'll say it again. With an average to good QB that can limit turnovers and occasionally make plays, we can compete for a title. With an okay to average QB, we can be an ok playoff team, at best.

So with me, and my definition of success being based on what I think this team is capable of, our success absolutely hinges on good QB play. We have a high floor bc of our defense, but our ceiling is set by the QB. That's the hinge.



iaafan
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Re: QB Update

Post by iaafan » Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:07 am

I’m not saying MSU will have an all time great defense. I’m saying success (def: significant overall team improvement) hinges on the defense becoming elite (def: top 2 overall BSC).

If the defense is the same as last year and MSU has good QB play the overall improvement will be marginal. If QB stays same and defense is elite, the overall improvement will be significant.



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Re: QB Update

Post by Catsrgrood » Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:10 am

VimSince03 wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:28 am
Catsrgrood wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:17 am
iaafan wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:55 am
The notion that MSU’s success hinges on QB play is off.

When Tampa Bay and Baltimore won Super Bowls. It was their defenses that carried them. Not Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer.
I think MSU’s success 100% hinges on QB play. That’s not saying the QB needs to be an all American though.

If the QB is holding onto the ball too long, taking sacks, throwing interceptions, missing open guys, etc, that stuff will lose MSU games.

Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer were solid QB’s that relied on defense and the run game and made the right decision at the right time and didn’t have excessive turnovers, THAT is what our QB needs to do.

This roster is stacked with the one major wild card potentially being the QB. Solid to good QB play would mean this is a top 10 team in the nation and a force to be reckoned with, bad QB play and they’re a team that could probably still sneak into the playoffs but likely lose in the first round or two.

So I think a lot of success hinges on the QB and thats why there is a 40+ page thread and going dedicated to it.
When Murray and Andersen held onto the ball too long or missed open guys, they washed out the mistake by making up for it on the ground. Tucker and Casey won't have that same luxury because they don't have the same skill set as Chris and Troy. Tucker and Casey HAVE TO be proficient in getting rid of the ball and hitting open guys above and beyond what Chris and Troy did the last few years...that is why Choate recruited them...to actually play the position it was meant to be played. So if they have a crappy completion percentage and a high turnover rate with little scoring production to counter it, MSU is going to struggle and #15 might be back in the driver's seat before we know it.

However, I think these kids just need live reps in games (and no not just 2.5 like Tucker got last year). As Colter/Brooks stated, they just have to pick a guy and roll with him/build him up. Again, I trust Matt Miller and what he wants to do on offense. Let's just let it all play out.

P.S. - taking sacks isn't always a bad thing...it's okay to live to fight another day instead of throwing a pick under pressure.
I agree completely. I’m just arguing the notion that the success of the team doesn’t hinge on the QB this year. With how much talent is elsewhere on the team, I think they will go as far as the QB can take them.
I do have faith in one or both of them being fully capable of leading this team this year and I have faith in the coaching staff.

As far as the sacks go, yes it’s ok to take them here and there and they’re certainly better than a bad int. But if they’re consistently taking them and getting knocked out of FG position, or turning a 2nd and 2 into a 3rd and 9 too often, that stuff will bite the team in the ass at some point.
Not saying these guys will do that, just more saying as a general rule and example of the things we can’t have the QB doing this year.

Minimize turnovers, make the right read, hit the open guy when needed, hand off to Ifanse/Jones/Andersen and co and manage the game and this team will be hard to beat.



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Re: QB Update

Post by bobcat99 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:12 am

Throwing the ball away > sack > turnover.



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Re: QB Update

Post by bobcat99 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:22 am

iaafan wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:07 am
I’m not saying MSU will have an all time great defense. I’m saying success (def: significant overall team improvement) hinges on the defense becoming elite (def: top 2 overall BSC).

If the defense is the same as last year and MSU has good QB play the overall improvement will be marginal. If QB stays same and defense is elite, the overall improvement will be significant.
I get that argument, but your examples weren't elite defenses. They were all time great defenses. There's a difference between the two.

I can't think of anybody recently who hasn't won with a very good offense and very good defense. You need both.



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Re: QB Update

Post by iaafan » Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:08 am

bobcat99 wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:22 am
iaafan wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:07 am
I’m not saying MSU will have an all time great defense. I’m saying success (def: significant overall team improvement) hinges on the defense becoming elite (def: top 2 overall BSC).

If the defense is the same as last year and MSU has good QB play the overall improvement will be marginal. If QB stays same and defense is elite, the overall improvement will be significant.
I get that argument, but your examples weren't elite defenses. They were all time great defenses. There's a difference between the two.

I can't think of anybody recently who hasn't won with a very good offense and very good defense. You need both.
Okay, maybe we’ll see. I think if the defense is top two in the BSC that MSU will be significantly better (10-2, first round bye) even if QB isn’t real good (like 125 QB rating).



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Re: QB Update

Post by bobcat99 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:21 am

iaafan wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:08 am
bobcat99 wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:22 am
iaafan wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:07 am
I’m not saying MSU will have an all time great defense. I’m saying success (def: significant overall team improvement) hinges on the defense becoming elite (def: top 2 overall BSC).

If the defense is the same as last year and MSU has good QB play the overall improvement will be marginal. If QB stays same and defense is elite, the overall improvement will be significant.
I get that argument, but your examples weren't elite defenses. They were all time great defenses. There's a difference between the two.

I can't think of anybody recently who hasn't won with a very good offense and very good defense. You need both.
Okay, maybe we’ll see. I think if the defense is top two in the BSC that MSU will be significantly better (10-2, first round bye) even if QB isn’t real good (like 125 QB rating).
I wouldn't use QB rating to determine if a QB is good or not, personally. And they can do all those things and still not be a real contender. That's why I said it depends on your definition of success.



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Re: QB Update

Post by iaafan » Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:33 am

bobcat99 wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:21 am
iaafan wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:08 am
bobcat99 wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:22 am
iaafan wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:07 am
I’m not saying MSU will have an all time great defense. I’m saying success (def: significant overall team improvement) hinges on the defense becoming elite (def: top 2 overall BSC).

If the defense is the same as last year and MSU has good QB play the overall improvement will be marginal. If QB stays same and defense is elite, the overall improvement will be significant.
I get that argument, but your examples weren't elite defenses. They were all time great defenses. There's a difference between the two.

I can't think of anybody recently who hasn't won with a very good offense and very good defense. You need both.
Okay, maybe we’ll see. I think if the defense is top two in the BSC that MSU will be significantly better (10-2, first round bye) even if QB isn’t real good (like 125 QB rating).
I wouldn't use QB rating to determine if a QB is good or not, personally. And they can do all those things and still not be a real contender. That's why I said it depends on your definition of success.
Okay, fair enough. The eye test works. We’ll see, maybe one of those scenarios will play out. Or maybe not.



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Re: QB Update

Post by grizzh8r » Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:08 am

iaafan wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:07 am
I’m not saying MSU will have an all time great defense. I’m saying success (def: significant overall team improvement) hinges on the defense becoming elite (def: top 2 overall BSC).

If the defense is the same as last year and MSU has good QB play the overall improvement will be marginal. If QB stays same and defense is elite, the overall improvement will be significant.
I really hope the defense is better than last year. MSU gave up far too many first downs on 3rd and long last season. Exhibit A is 2018 cat/griz. Imagine the tune we'd be singing right now if not for "The Stuff"...


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Re: QB Update

Post by iaafan » Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:22 am

grizzh8r wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:08 am
iaafan wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:07 am
I’m not saying MSU will have an all time great defense. I’m saying success (def: significant overall team improvement) hinges on the defense becoming elite (def: top 2 overall BSC).

If the defense is the same as last year and MSU has good QB play the overall improvement will be marginal. If QB stays same and defense is elite, the overall improvement will be significant.
I really hope the defense is better than last year. MSU gave up far too many first downs on 3rd and long last season. Exhibit A is 2018 cat/griz. Imagine the tune we'd be singing right now if not for "The Stuff"...
No doubt. That and they were torched by SDSU and Ndsu.



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Re: QB Update

Post by AFCAT » Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:34 am

What drove me crazy last year was the opponents ability to score on their first possession.


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