Does defense really win chippers?

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RickRund
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Re: Does defense really win chippers?

Post by RickRund » Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:02 pm

So did defense win todays game at ndsu? Or is this considered balance?


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Re: Does defense really win chippers?

Post by catsack » Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:10 pm

Cledus wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:45 am
JimboCat wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:55 am
Defense wins with at least an average to good offense. Weber had a really bad match up, in that Maine has a great run defense and Weber can't throw it.

Weber did not have a good offense this year, and they didn't score from defense or special teams like they did during the year.

The yardage was only even because Weber got a bunch of yards at the end.

Maine was better.
Weber was dead last in offense in the league.
No they were ninth!



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Re: Does defense really win chippers?

Post by Hawks86 » Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:18 pm

catsack wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:10 pm
Cledus wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:45 am
JimboCat wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:55 am
Defense wins with at least an average to good offense. Weber had a really bad match up, in that Maine has a great run defense and Weber can't throw it.

Weber did not have a good offense this year, and they didn't score from defense or special teams like they did during the year.

The yardage was only even because Weber got a bunch of yards at the end.

Maine was better.
Weber was dead last in offense in the league.
No they were ninth!
13th in overall ttl off. and 12th for conference only.


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Re: Does defense really win chippers?

Post by catsack » Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:45 pm

Hawks86 wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:18 pm
catsack wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:10 pm
Cledus wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:45 am
JimboCat wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:55 am
Defense wins with at least an average to good offense. Weber had a really bad match up, in that Maine has a great run defense and Weber can't throw it.

Weber did not have a good offense this year, and they didn't score from defense or special teams like they did during the year.

The yardage was only even because Weber got a bunch of yards at the end.

Maine was better.
Weber was dead last in offense in the league.
No they were ninth!
13th in overall ttl off. and 12th for conference only.
Oops my bad that was 2017



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Re: Does defense really win chippers?

Post by codecat » Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:43 pm

I'm going to go with the old-school theory that football is still a team sport, and that the offense and defense are inter-dependent upon each other, which essentially means both need to be strong enough. We have gone from oe of the worst defenses (the last 2-4 years of the Ash era), and one of the best offenses to a better than average defense and an offense that seems lost at best. We did show reasonably well in the conference though, but looking at the playoffs, the conference may have been overrated.


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Re: Does defense really win chippers?

Post by Cataholic » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:52 pm

codecat wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:43 pm
I'm going to go with the old-school theory that football is still a team sport, and that the offense and defense are inter-dependent upon each other, which essentially means both need to be strong enough. We have gone from oe of the worst defenses (the last 2-4 years of the Ash era), and one of the best offenses to a better than average defense and an offense that seems lost at best. We did show reasonably well in the conference though, but looking at the playoffs, the conference may have been overrated.
Did I miss something? The Big Sky had 3 teams in the quarterfinals. 1 made the semifinals. Weber game was competitive and the Davis lost to another conference member. While NDSU and SDSU might be on another level, I thought the Big Sky had one of the best showing of all conferences.



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Re: Does defense really win chippers?

Post by kennethnoisewater » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:49 am

The #1 defense in the country had 35 points scored on them Saturday by NDSU. They couldn't put up a single point vs. the Bizon. Put together a great defense and you still get blown out. I think that just shows the other level NDSU is on though. With them around, a great defense doesn't win championships. You are going to have to have a great defense and a great offense and be perfect on special teams. I think right now, more than any other time in FCS/I-AA history, you have to be perfect to beat the best. Georgia Southern, App State, UM, Youngstown State, Marshall--all the teams who might claim to have had dynasties--have never been this dominant. I do believe there was a time when the best defense gave you a chance to win championships, but not anymore. You have to have the best defense and an offense that can score a lot of points against an elite defense, then make almost no mistakes. Gone are the days (as long as NDSU is around) where an elite defense and just a serviceable offense can win championships. Saying championships are won by any one side of the ball (or position group) is inaccurate in college football right now.


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Re: Does defense really win chippers?

Post by iaafan » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:25 pm

Colgate is the top defense “statistically.” Not even close to top defense. They play in the Patriot League, which is maybe the seventh best conference in the FCS. They have a good defense, but it isn’t much better than MSU’s. Their run D is noticeably better than MSU’s.

They got the 8 seed, but aren’t the 8th best team in the country.



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Re: Does defense really win chippers?

Post by kennethnoisewater » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:34 pm

iaafan wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:25 pm
Colgate is the top defense “statistically.” Not even close to top defense. They play in the Patriot League, which is maybe the seventh best conference in the FCS. They have a good defense, but it isn’t much better than MSU’s. Their run D is noticeably better than MSU’s.

They got the 8 seed, but aren’t the 8th best team in the country.
Sure, but when you give up 9 TD's all season (4 of which were to Army, who took Oklahoma to OT and will play in a bowl game), you have a REALLY good defense. To say "not even close to top defense" makes me assume you've watched everybody play and I will take your word for it. My uneducated opinion say that puts them somewhere close to the top defense, regardless of what league they play in.


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Re: Does defense really win chippers?

Post by luckyirishguy25 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:55 pm

kennethnoisewater wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:34 pm
iaafan wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:25 pm
Colgate is the top defense “statistically.” Not even close to top defense. They play in the Patriot League, which is maybe the seventh best conference in the FCS. They have a good defense, but it isn’t much better than MSU’s. Their run D is noticeably better than MSU’s.

They got the 8 seed, but aren’t the 8th best team in the country.
Sure, but when you give up 9 TD's all season (4 of which were to Army, who took Oklahoma to OT and will play in a bowl game), you have a REALLY good defense. To say "not even close to top defense" makes me assume you've watched everybody play and I will take your word for it. My uneducated opinion say that puts them somewhere close to the top defense, regardless of what league they play in.
I kinda agree with 1aa, colgate was the top statistical defense due to the schedule they played. I'd definitely say top25 but top10 might be a stretch.



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Re: Does defense really win chippers?

Post by kennethnoisewater » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:22 pm

luckyirishguy25 wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:55 pm
kennethnoisewater wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:34 pm
iaafan wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:25 pm
Colgate is the top defense “statistically.” Not even close to top defense. They play in the Patriot League, which is maybe the seventh best conference in the FCS. They have a good defense, but it isn’t much better than MSU’s. Their run D is noticeably better than MSU’s.

They got the 8 seed, but aren’t the 8th best team in the country.
Sure, but when you give up 9 TD's all season (4 of which were to Army, who took Oklahoma to OT and will play in a bowl game), you have a REALLY good defense. To say "not even close to top defense" makes me assume you've watched everybody play and I will take your word for it. My uneducated opinion say that puts them somewhere close to the top defense, regardless of what league they play in.
I kinda agree with 1aa, colgate was the top statistical defense due to the schedule they played. I'd definitely say top25 but top10 might be a stretch.
They had NDSU shut down for a little while there and looked like world beaters. Then NDSU took over and made them look average. NDSU made MSU look like the Thompson Falls Bluehawks and probably could've scored 70.

Play 11 games and somebody's gonna score some TD's. Four of the nine were against Army and two were against JMU in the playoffs. Three TD's in the other nine games is pretty impressive, even in the Patriot League. All I've seen was about 2/3 of a game against NDSU and I still thought they were pretty darn good on defense.

My point, however, is that I don't care whose defense is playing against NDSU, you're not beating them without a great defense AND a great offense.


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Re: Does defense really win chippers?

Post by CelticCat » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:27 pm

Well after watching Colgate against NDSU, Colgate is light years ahead of us on defense.


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Re: Does defense really win chippers?

Post by codecat » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:37 pm

Cataholic wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:52 pm
codecat wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:43 pm
I'm going to go with the old-school theory that football is still a team sport, and that the offense and defense are inter-dependent upon each other, which essentially means both need to be strong enough. We have gone from oe of the worst defenses (the last 2-4 years of the Ash era), and one of the best offenses to a better than average defense and an offense that seems lost at best. We did show reasonably well in the conference though, but looking at the playoffs, the conference may have been overrated.
Did I miss something? The Big Sky had 3 teams in the quarterfinals. 1 made the semifinals. Weber game was competitive and the Davis lost to another conference member. While NDSU and SDSU might be on another level, I thought the Big Sky had one of the best showing of all conferences.
No, I doubt that you missed something - just my impression of how our conference stacked up (primarily defensively) in a few games. Weber struggled (the #2 seed) mightily on offense the entire game against Maine (#7 seed), whereas from the last few minutes of the MSU/Weber game, when WSU hit its stride in the air and on the ground, we had nothing. Another example was how we fared with SDSU and how they struggled with Kenshaw which were the #5 and 4 seeds respectively, and comparatively how SDSU shut us down. Maybe my ramblings are more about Weber's offense and MSU's defense and do not belong here. Anyway, it just seems this conference has a long ways to go defensively to stack up with the likes of the top tier teams. Think it would have helped my perception if UC Davis had been paired with someone else too, but im proud that we did have 2 conference teams in the quarterfinals and one that is in the semi's & and I think they will move to the finals.


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Re: Does defense really win chippers?

Post by iaafan » Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:07 pm

[quote=CelticCat post_id=654392 time=1544477232 user_id=109]
Well after watching Colgate against NDSU, Colgate is light years ahead of us on defense.
[/quote]


It’s a small sample size
They gave up 443 yards on 63 plays. Would’ve been 500 had the refs not blown call on long pass to the 1. That’s another score for NDSU. MSU gave up 493 on 56 plays. Played the pass much better 7-12 86 yards vs 15-19 205 (260 actually) yards. They were much better vs run. I don’t think they’re all that much better than MSU defensively. I think we would beat Colgate.



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Re: Does defense really win chippers?

Post by CelticCat » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:00 pm

Well, they gave up 35 points to our 52, so that's a key stat right there.

NDSU averaged 8.8 yards per play against us, 7 Colgate. We only forced 2 punts all game, Colgate forced 5.

Colgate flew to the ball and tackled well in space. Their offense was completely shut down however, just 157 yards.

It's a moot point, neither defense was good enough. The transitive property is never good, but Colgate beat UNH 10-3, and UNH beat JMU 35-24 (who Colgate beat 23-20). They also blanked W&M 23-0, who beat Maine 27-20.


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Re: Does defense really win chippers?

Post by Cledus » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:24 pm

CelticCat wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:00 pm
Well, they gave up 35 points to our 52, so that's a key stat right there.

NDSU averaged 8.8 yards per play against us, 7 Colgate. We only forced 2 punts all game, Colgate forced 5.

Colgate flew to the ball and tackled well in space. Their offense was completely shut down however, just 157 yards.

It's a moot point, neither defense was good enough. The transitive property is never good, but Colgate beat UNH 10-3, and UNH beat JMU 35-24 (who Colgate beat 23-20). They also blanked W&M 23-0, who beat Maine 27-20.
Also worth noting, even though NDSU only scored 14 against us in the second half they clearly let up.


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Re: Does defense really win chippers?

Post by 91catAlum » Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:44 pm

Cledus wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:24 pm
CelticCat wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:00 pm
Well, they gave up 35 points to our 52, so that's a key stat right there.

NDSU averaged 8.8 yards per play against us, 7 Colgate. We only forced 2 punts all game, Colgate forced 5.

Colgate flew to the ball and tackled well in space. Their offense was completely shut down however, just 157 yards.

It's a moot point, neither defense was good enough. The transitive property is never good, but Colgate beat UNH 10-3, and UNH beat JMU 35-24 (who Colgate beat 23-20). They also blanked W&M 23-0, who beat Maine 27-20.
Also worth noting, even though NDSU only scored 14 against us in the second half they clearly let up.
Perhaps in the 4th quarter that's true. But they were still coming after us in the third quarter and still throwing the ball. That's when Hill got his pick.

We forced 2 punts, held to a FG once, and got that INT.
Colgate forced 5 punts, no FGs and no turnovers.

Colgate definitely had a much better first half than we did, only being down 14 at half, whereas we were down 35.


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Re: Does defense really win chippers?

Post by BelgradeBobcat » Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:05 pm




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Re: Does defense really win chippers?

Post by Cataholic » Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:56 pm

codecat wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:37 pm
Cataholic wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:52 pm
codecat wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:43 pm
I'm going to go with the old-school theory that football is still a team sport, and that the offense and defense are inter-dependent upon each other, which essentially means both need to be strong enough. We have gone from oe of the worst defenses (the last 2-4 years of the Ash era), and one of the best offenses to a better than average defense and an offense that seems lost at best. We did show reasonably well in the conference though, but looking at the playoffs, the conference may have been overrated.
Did I miss something? The Big Sky had 3 teams in the quarterfinals. 1 made the semifinals. Weber game was competitive and the Davis lost to another conference member. While NDSU and SDSU might be on another level, I thought the Big Sky had one of the best showing of all conferences.
No, I doubt that you missed something - just my impression of how our conference stacked up (primarily defensively) in a few games. Weber struggled (the #2 seed) mightily on offense the entire game against Maine (#7 seed), whereas from the last few minutes of the MSU/Weber game, when WSU hit its stride in the air and on the ground, we had nothing. Another example was how we fared with SDSU and how they struggled with Kenshaw which were the #5 and 4 seeds respectively, and comparatively how SDSU shut us down. Maybe my ramblings are more about Weber's offense and MSU's defense and do not belong here. Anyway, it just seems this conference has a long ways to go defensively to stack up with the likes of the top tier teams. Think it would have helped my perception if UC Davis had been paired with someone else too, but im proud that we did have 2 conference teams in the quarterfinals and one that is in the semi's & and I think they will move to the finals.
Big Sky had 3 teams in the quarterfinals, not 2. This was more than any other conference and each team represented well. The MVFC had 2 really good teams this year, but the rest of the conference was down. The CAA got 6 teams in with only one team registering a victory. There is a legit argument that the Big Sky was one of the stronger conferences in the country this year.



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