Is Choate putting to much emphasis on the defense?

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Re: Is Choate putting to much emphasis on the defense?

Post by 91catAlum » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:44 am

77matcat wrote:IMHO one of the best offenses in the country would be able to score when they needed to.


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I don't think it's that simple. What if they were playing one of the best defenses? Wouldn't that defense be able to get a stop when they needed to?


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Re: Is Choate putting to much emphasis on the defense?

Post by GoldstoneCat » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:56 am

91catAlum wrote:
77matcat wrote:IMHO one of the best offenses in the country would be able to score when they needed to.


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I don't think it's that simple. What if they were playing one of the best defenses? Wouldn't that defense be able to get a stop when they needed to?
Since we're into a hypothetical: Coach Choate vs. a hurricane, who would win? Hold on, hold on, hold on, what if the name of the hurricane was Hurricane Choate? :D Please debate. #mustbetheoffseason



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Re: Is Choate putting to much emphasis on the defense?

Post by GoldstoneCat » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:02 am

Cledus wrote:
utucats wrote:The change in the firepower of our offense has as much to do with a change in philosophy as it does with a change in personnel.

Choate is building a contender. Contenders tend to be able to break your heart by grinding out tough yards on the ground, winning time of possession and playing tough defense. This model has proven itself time and again. Choate should be appreciated for changing the style so quickly. With only two seasons under his belt, he has melded this team into a stingy defensive squad with an improving offensive run game. It’s amazing when you realize that only 3 seasons ago we tried to outscore everyone while our defense couldn’t stop anyone.
Are implying we weren’t a running team before Choate arrived? We ran the ball quite well under Ash.
I agree actually with both of you to a degree. We ran the ball well, very well, when Ash was here, specifically the years we had the best teams. Cody Kirk was a great story, and a great complement to the passing attack of McGhee, Bleskin, Akpla, etc. Dakota ran the ball well too, but in a different fashion, and one that was not as conducive to closing out close games. As utu says, our style has now changed. The question, as it was at the end of the Ash years with Prukop (where the offense became one-dimensional in its reliance on one player), is will we be able to find enough offensive balance to win, given our improving and potentially very good defense? I don't know the answer. If Natee is a good power runner (up for debate until proven one way or the other), I like our running game's potential, with Murray and Patterson as outside run options off some sort of hybridized SHSU-style zone option scheme. Can he hit 12-15 intermediate-to-long throws per game, to keep the safeties off the line? Same question as last year, and the one that will determine whether we're competitive again, or take the step to winning those close games.



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Re: Is Choate putting to much emphasis on the defense?

Post by iaafan » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:06 am

Damn, Goldstone. If MSU does all that it’ll be turning close losses into 20-point wins.



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Re: Is Choate putting to much emphasis on the defense?

Post by Hawks86 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:27 am

What has Choate not done to address weaknesses from 2017?


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Re: Is Choate putting to much emphasis on the defense?

Post by 95bcfb » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:40 am

TomCat88 wrote:MSU did not have one of the worst offenses in the nation. :lol: This place reminds me of South Park sometimes. You don’t run the ball like MSU does and get labeled that. The pass game has been all over the map, but the offense overall is not one of the worst in the nation. Defense, special teams and offense all contributed to narrow losses vs WSU, SDSU, EWU, NAU and KSU.

The 2017 scoring offense in the Big Sky was ranked #10.

1. Sacramento State 11 53 14 52 0 0 1 414 37.6
2. Montana 11 49 15 44 0 1 0 385 35.0
3. Eastern Washington 11 50 10 47 1 0 0 379 34.5
4. Weber State 14 59 19 53 4 0 0 472 33.7
5. UC Davis 11 50 8 46 0 0 0 370 33.6
6. Southern Utah 12 52 14 41 3 0 1 403 33.6
7. Northern Arizona 12 47 13 42 0 0 0 363 30.2
8. Idaho State 11 41 9 36 0 0 0 309 28.1
9. Northern Colorado 10 35 11 33 1 0 0 278 27.8
10. Montana State 11 38 5 33 0 1 0 278 25.3
11. North Dakota 11 33 15 32 1 0 0 277 25.2
12. Portland State 11 36 3 25 2 0 1 256 23.3
13. Cal Poly 11 26 7 26 0 0 0 203 18.5

I would consider that one of the worst in the big sky.

The Defense was ranked #2 in the conference.

In 2016 the national ranking was as follows:

Team Stats - Through games 01/07/2017
Stat Rank Value
Total Offense 72 367.9
Rushing Offense 17 212.0
Passing Offense 107 155.9
Team Passing Efficiency 103 103.61
Scoring Offense 68 25.6
Total Defense 58 388.6
Rushing Defense 42 145.9
Passing Yards Allowed 90 242.7
Team Passing Efficiency Defense 50 123.59
Scoring Defense T-45 25.1
Turnover Margin 101 -0.64
3rd Down Conversion Pct 103 0.321
4th Down Conversion Pct 35 0.579
3rd Down Conversion Pct Defense 34 0.356
4th Down Conversion Pct Defense T-79 0.550
Red Zone Offense T-13 0.882
Red Zone Defense 58 0.805
Net Punting 17 37.89
Punt Returns 15 13.15
Kickoff Returns 24 21.82
First Downs Offense 97 190
First Downs Defense T-64 225
Fewest Penalties Per Game T-32 5.55
Fewest Penalty Yards Per Game 22 46.36
Time of Possession 63 29:45
View Complete Ranking Summary


So I was wrong. We weren't one of the worst but we certainly weren't good and it wasn't just that we were changing our style of football. I suspect that Choate would love to run the kind of offense that Ash ran with Kirk and company. I think people forget how much we ran the ball under Ash. As you can see below we rushed for nearly as many yards as we passed.

Team Stats - Through games 01/04/2014
Stat Rank Value
Total Offense 37 418.6
Rushing Offense 42 183.6
Passing Offense 42 235.0

Even under Cramsey we ran a fairly balanced offense and were ranked # 17 in the country in rushing offense.


Team Stats - Through games 01/09/2016
Stat Rank Value
Total Offense 3 519.8
Rushing Offense 18 216.0
Passing Offense 7 303.8
Team Passing Efficiency 6 156.77
Scoring Offense 3 41.9

I know that states don't tell anywhere near the hole picture and I was more than frustrated at times with Cramsey's offense. I would even go as far as to say that that type of offense rarely wins championships. With that said the type of offense that we have mustered the last two year will never win championships. We have to get a lot better than we have been.



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Re: Is Choate putting to much emphasis on the defense?

Post by iaafan » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:23 am

95: statistically, Weber had a worse offense than MSU. Stats are misleading. MSU was better in total offense, rush offense, yards per carry. Weber was just one spot ahead of MSU in scoring (7th to 8th) and pass offense (11th to 12th). So, yes, you can win championships with this kind of offense.



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Re: Is Choate putting to much emphasis on the defense?

Post by CelticCat » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:23 am

I think we can all agree the offense has to get better. That doesn't even necessarily scoring more points, but we have to make critical plays, we have to keep the chain moving. We need consistency. We can't score on 2 straight drives and then go 3 and out 4 times in a row.

I really like what moves we've made in the offseason to help Murray develop. Bringing in a touted QB to compete (big bummer he got injured), bringing in Bob Cole, finding some WRs more suited for the slot (I agree with Colter in that Kassis isn't necessarily a slot WR just because of his size). It was also clear that Murray added some strength, as he didn't have enough zip on some balls last year. The problem when you put muscle on a QB whose best ball was the long ball to begin with, you start to see overthrows on long balls. Hope that isn't the case.

If the defense improves and our offense is exactly the same as last year, we might win 2 more games. If the offense improves and the defense is exactly the same, I think we win 3 more games.


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Re: Is Choate putting to much emphasis on the defense?

Post by CelticCat » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:29 am

iaafan wrote:95: statistically, Weber had a worse offense than MSU. Stats are misleading. MSU was better in total offense, rush offense, yards per carry. Weber was just one spot ahead of MSU in scoring (7th to 8th) and pass offense (11th to 12th). So, yes, you can win championships with this kind of offense.
What stats are you looking at? Those seem all wrong.

Weber was 3rd in pass offense efficiency - we were 10th. They were also #1 in TOP. Weber was #4 in scoring offense.

One glaring stat is completion %. We hit only 50.8% of our passes, good for deal last for any school not named Cal Poly.


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Re: Is Choate putting to much emphasis on the defense?

Post by iaafan » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:55 am

[quote="CelticCat"][quote="iaafan"]95: statistically, Weber had a worse offense than MSU. Stats are misleading. MSU was better in total offense, rush offense, yards per carry. Weber was just one spot ahead of MSU in scoring (7th to 8th) and pass offense (11th to 12th). So, yes, you can win championships with this kind of offense.[/quote]

What stats are you looking at? Those seem all wrong.

Weber was 3rd in pass offense efficiency - we were 10th. They were also #1 in TOP. Weber was #4 in scoring offense.

One glaring stat is completion %. We hit only 50.8% of our passes, good for deal last for any school not named Cal Poly.[/quote]

Conference stats from conference games. We played a much more difficult non-conference schedule and we had no playoff games, so these are more apples to apples.



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Re: Is Choate putting to much emphasis on the defense?

Post by The MICKSTER » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:26 am

Here’s some data to mull over….. first number listed is rank within the conference followed by the applicable stat/#.
.........................................BOBCATS
............................2017...........................2016
.......................Conf........Overall...........Conf........Overall
Record...............5-3...........5-6................2-6...........4-7
....................T for 6th........T for 7th...........T for 9th.........9th

Scoring Offense...8 - 29.6....10 - 25.3.......Not Available...11 - 25.6
Total Offense.....9 - 432.....10 - 397........Not Available...12 - 368
Pass Offense......12 - 147....12 - 148........Not Available...12 - 156
Rush Offense.....1 - 286.......1 - 250........Not Available....3 - 212
Pass Efficiency..10 - 127.0...10 - 122.7.....Not Available....12 - 103.6
Time of Poss.....4 - 31:25.....6 - 29:35......Not Available....7 - 29:44
Red Zone Offense....11th.....12th...........Not Available.....4th

Scoring Defense .3 - 24.6.....2 - 25.0.........Not Available...2 - 25.1
Total Defense....3 - 392......3 - 407..........Not Available...3 - 389
Pass Defense.....4 - 244......5 - 240..........Not Available...8 - 243
Rush Defense....3 - 148......5 - 168..........Not Available...3 - 146
Sacks by......... 8 - 14.......11 - 17..........Not Available...12 - 15
Interceptions....12 - 5.......13 - 5............Not Available...4 - 10

Some things that pop out that give me optimism;
• Pass Efficiency went from 103.6 to ~ 125!
• Defensive #’s remained about the same, but our competition didn’t
• Rush Offense improved even with a tougher schedule
• Our Conference record improved by 3 wins…..if it improves by 3 again this year we’ll be undefeated!
• Not statistical related but….this year is an all FCS schedule! WE CAN LEGITIMATELY WIN EVERY GAME AND THEY ALL WILL COUNT! Kuddos to the Athletic Department.

Some things that pop out that I hope we can improve on;
o Both Interceptions & Sacks need to improve dramatically
o Continued improvement in passing and pass efficiency
o Red Zone Offense….ugh….nuf said.

Getting back to the topic at hand…….I’d say Passing, Red Zone Offense & Scoring need to improve about as much as Sacks & Interceptions do. At least on a ‘Roster’ basis, it would be hard to argue that Choate hasn’t emphasized solving the Sacks & Interceptions problem (i.e. Pass Rush) more than he has emphasized the Offensive Problems (i.e. Passing, Scoring, Red Zone). However, bringing in QB Travis Jonsen & Pass Game Coordinator Bob Cole is a step in the right direction to solve those problems as well. GO CATS!



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Re: Is Choate putting to much emphasis on the defense?

Post by DriscollCat » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:04 am

Getting back to the topic at hand…….I’d say Passing, Red Zone Offense & Scoring need to improve about as much as Sacks & Interceptions do. At least on a ‘Roster’ basis, it would be hard to argue that Choate hasn’t emphasized solving the Sacks & Interceptions problem (i.e. Pass Rush) more than he has emphasized the Offensive Problems (i.e. Passing, Scoring, Red Zone). However, bringing in QB Travis Jonsen & Pass Game Coordinator Bob Cole is a step in the right direction to solve those problems as well. GO CATS!
:goodpost:

I also think that, to be fair, when an opportunity (Sparaco for example) presents itself, you don't pass on it just because you should be focusing more on Offense. Additionally, if Coach believes that Troy can be All American at LB vs All Conference at RB, as (I believe) Colter said, then I get trying to keep him on that side of the ball, for Troy's sake if nothing else.

Edit: Also, I imagine this team attracts great D players more than great O players, partly because of the high standard on D.



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Re: Is Choate putting to much emphasis on the defense?

Post by allcat » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:38 am

I guarantee you if we are first in every category, we will win the conference. :-^


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Re: Is Choate putting to much emphasis on the defense?

Post by Hawks86 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:46 am

I think people are weighing recent additions for the defense more than winter additions for the offense.


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Re: Is Choate putting to much emphasis on the defense?

Post by Buckaroo Bonzi » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:56 am

I think Coach Choate is doing exactly, what he said he wanted to do ,when he first got here. The Defense
is happening a little faster than the Offense . Sometimes you have to work with what you have , until you
get what you want.Good times for the Cats are coming.


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Re: Is Choate putting to much emphasis on the defense?

Post by utucats » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:06 pm

Cledus wrote:
utucats wrote:The change in the firepower of our offense has as much to do with a change in philosophy as it does with a change in personnel.

Choate is building a contender. Contenders tend to be able to break your heart by grinding out tough yards on the ground, winning time of possession and playing tough defense. This model has proven itself time and again. Choate should be appreciated for changing the style so quickly. With only two seasons under his belt, he has melded this team into a stingy defensive squad with an improving offensive run game. It’s amazing when you realize that only 3 seasons ago we tried to outscore everyone while our defense couldn’t stop anyone.
Are implying we weren’t a running team before Choate arrived? We ran the ball quite well under Ash.
We did a lot of things well on offense with Ash but I believed our pace was to fast which contributed to our problems on defense. Coaching philosophies that center around offensive gimmicks don’t workout in the long run. When it works it may be dynamic and entertaining but once you run into a talented and disciplined team the wheels fall off and you get exposed. We should all remember many instances when this took place.

Choate’s style isn’t cutting edge and, in some people’s view, may not be all that exciting but it is a time tested way to put your team in the best position to win. Murray needs to complete enough passes to keep the defense honest. If he does that we have the talent to go far.


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Re: Is Choate putting to much emphasis on the defense?

Post by 77matcat » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:20 pm

Tough to garner value from conference stats when you don’t play all the teams.

Schedule helps or hurts.


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Re: Is Choate putting to much emphasis on the defense?

Post by CelticCat » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:33 pm

77matcat wrote:Tough to garner value from conference stats when you don’t play all the teams.

Schedule helps or hurts.


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Exactly. Conference only stats nowadays mean about the same as all game stats, because the schedules vary so much with teams not playing other conference teams.

Conference only stats may be a slightly better gauge, but not like it used to be.


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Re: Is Choate putting to much emphasis on the defense?

Post by iaafan » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:41 pm

[quote="77matcat"]Tough to garner value from conference stats when you don’t play all the teams.

Schedule helps or hurts.


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But they’re more accurate than overall game stats. I’m just saying that teams with offenses like MSU’s can win. Such as WSU. A winning mentality can overcome weaknesses.

When MSU and WSU played it was very close statistically. MSU had a big lead in yards per play as did WSU in first downs. Msu missed two makeable FGs and they were 4-4. MSU committed a roughing the passer penalty when it a chance to get the ball back and take the lead. Down 8 MSU had a would be first down at WSU 37 with one minute to go called back for holding.



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Re: Is Choate putting to much emphasis on the defense?

Post by GoldstoneCat » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:58 pm

iaafan wrote:Damn, Goldstone. If MSU does all that it’ll be turning close losses into 20-point wins.
It's the off-season, man, dream big! 8)



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